Talk:Suzanne Valadon

Untitled
"In Limoges, France, there is a lycée named Lycée Suzanne Valadon. This school does a biannual exchange with David W. Butler High School, in Matthews, North Carolina." - Don't you feel that this last sentence is completely irrelevant?

I agree, completely irrelevent. Also, she is described as striking and beautiful which is purely oppionion. I find her very pretty but there are few pictures of her so it's hard to tell. Alanna Edwards 17:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

toulouse lautrec
Can anyone expand on her relationship with Lautrec? She was his muse, lover and he was reportedly a big help with her career (even encouraging her to change her name from marie clementine to suzanne as it was more respectable)

<< She modeled for artists such as Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec (who gave her painting lessons), Pierre-Auguste Renoir, and Pierre-Cécile Puvis de Chavannes, and is known to have had an affair with the latter two.>> I think this need to be change because she one of Lautrec's models and possibly his mistress as well!


 * I would also add that the current wording implies that this was one affair, not two separate ones. Now, that's perfectly possible, but ... Philip Trueman (talk) 13:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Degas and Valadon
"In the early 1890s she befriended Edgar Degas who, impressed with her bold line drawings and fine paintings, purchased her work and encouraged her efforts. She remained one of Degas' closest friends until his death." Does anyone have a citation for this? According to Valadon's bio on the National Museum of Women in the Arts, he was indeed a friend and mentor and taught Valadon drawing and printmaking techniques. I haven't found anything suggesting he had purchased Valadon's work, though.Arthistorygrrl (talk) 19:10, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Planned edits
As a part of an art history class project, I am planning on making extensive edits to this article. I am planning on restructuring some of the current sections, as well as adding more information with proper citations. Please also note that I will be adding a few additional sources to the reference section and have included minor inline citations to this rough draft for personal reference. I plan to add the following information throughout the article:

Intro
The subjects of her drawings and paintings included mostly female nudes, female portraits, still lives, landscapes. She never attended the academy and was never confined within a tradition (Warnod 40). Suzanne spent nearly 40 years of her life as an artist (Marchesseau 9).

Personal life
Suzanne didn’t know her father, and she grew up in poverty with her mother. She was known to be quite independent and rebellious. She attended primary school until age 11. She then worked in a milliner’s workshop, a factory making funeral wreaths, the market selling vegetables, a waitress in a restaurant, and then finally in the circus at age 15 (Warnod 13). Suzanne gave birth to her illegitimate son, Maurice Utrillo, in 1883 at the age of 18 (Marchesseau 9). Suzanne’s mother cared for her son (Marchesseau 15). Miguel Utrillo would later sign papers recognizing Maurice as his son, although his true paternity is uncertain (Warnod 48). Suzanne helped educate herself by reading Lautrec’s books and observing the artists she posed for (Warnod 40).

In 1895 Suzanne married stock broker Paul Moussis. For 13 years she led a bourgeois life between an apartment in Paris and a house in the outlying region (Marchesseau 16). In 1909, Suzanne began her affair with André Utter, age 23 and a friend of her son. She would later divorce Paul in 1913 (Marchesseau 17-18). Suzanne married Utter in 1914 (OAO). Suzanne Valadon died of a stroke at the age of 73 (Warnod 88).


 * First of all, good work on expanding this article. In this section, you could mention her connection with Erik Satie (and her portrait of him). While it would appear that she meant a great deal more to him than vice versa, those reading about Satie may well click through to Suzanne. I restored a dead link in the Erik Satie article discussing their affair and the portrait. Thanks Declangi (talk) 20:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Model
She debuted as a model in 1880 in Montmartre at age 15 (Rose 9). She modeled for over 10 years for many different artists: Puvis de Chavannes, Steinlen, Renoir, and Toulouse-Lautrec. She was also known to be good friends with Degas (Marchesseau 9). She modeled under the name “Maria” and was thought to of had many affairs with the artists she modeled for. She was considered seductive, provocative, comely, voluptuous, and flighty as a model. Toulouse-Lautrec nicknamed her “Suzanne” after the biblical story of Suzanne and the Elders (Marchesseau 14). She was considered a very focused, ambitious, rebellious, determined, self-confident, and passionate woman (Marchesseau 15).

Artist
Her class allowed her to enter the male public domain of art through modeling and then emerged as an artist within her circle of prominent male artists. She resists typical depictions of women via their class and supposed sexuality. (Mathews 416).

Her first portrait was created in 1883 at age 18 before she gave birth to her son (Warnod 8). She produced mostly drawings from 1883-1893. Her first models were her family members, often her son, mother, or niece (Warnod 48). Her first paintings were created in 1892-1893 (Warnod 57). Her first female nude was made in 1892 (Rose 97). Suzanne’s first time in the Salon de la Nationale was in 1894. Degas was the first person to buy drawings from her (Warnod 51). Degas also taught her soft-ground etching (Warnod 55). She made a shift from drawing to painting during her initial relationship with Utter starting in 1909 (Marchesseau 17). Her first large oils for the Salon related to sexual pleasure, and they were some of the first examples in painting for the man to be an object of desire by a woman. These notable Salon paintings include Adam et Eve (Adam and Eve) (1909), La joie de vivre (Joy of Living) (1911), Lancement du filet (Casting of the Net) (1914) (Marchesseau 18-19). Suzanne produced around 300 drawings and over 450 oil paintings by the end of her life (Marchesseau 17).

It’s thought that her experience as a model and as an artist allowed her to analyze the process that transformed and positioned the body as an object of the gaze within a work of art and influenced her understanding and perspective of women and the female body (Mathews 415). Suzanne Valadon has been considered transgressive in her position as a woman painting the nude female body, which was considered not a “proper woman artist” (Mathews 418). Use of unidealized bodies that are not overtly sexualized (Mathews 419). Self-possessed figures (Mathews 423).

The “delicate hand” of a female painter goes undiscerned in her painting (Marchesseau 13). She primarily worked with oil paint, oil pencils, pastels, and red chalk; she did not care to use ink or watercolor because these mediums were too fluid for her preference (Marchesseau 16). Suzanne’s paintings feature rich colors and bold, open brushwork often featuring firm black lines to define and outline her figures (Marchesseau 9). She used hard black lines to emphasize the structure of the body (Warnod 48). She also used firm lines in her nudes to emphasize the play of light on curves.

Suzanne’s self-portraits, portraits, nudes, landscapes, and still lifes remain knowingly detatched from trends and aspects of academic art (Marchesseau 9, 11). The subjects of Suzanne’s paintings often reinvented her masters’ themes: women at their toilette, reclining nudes, and interior scenes. Common features of her paintings included bourgeois décor, furniture, living rooms, and washrooms with a tub. Many have suggested a vibrant, emotional sense that emanates from her drawings and paintings as a result from a fraternal or familial observation of these women’s bodies. Suzanne emphasized her focus on the importance of composition over painting expressive eyes (Marchesseau 16). Suzanne’s later paintings are marked with richer color and crowded decorative backgrounds. (OAO)

Cq245809 (talk) 16:36, 23 October 2014 (UTC)


 * You've done a very good job adding information into this article. I'm not aware of anything else that really needs to be added, but there are a few layout changes that could make the article more accessible to the reader. The "Artist" subsection is a rather large block of text right now. It might make more sense to split this up into multiple pieces such as one for the actual milestone's in her career and then another for her actual works which would include things like style and subjects. I would also suggest adding one or more pictures to this section to visually break up the text. I feel like a large section of text like this may be intimidating to a reader trying to get information quickly. It will be better to have some relevant pictures throughout than to have all of the pictures at the bottom of the page. The text flows pretty well as it is. However, throughout the article both Suzanne and Valadon are used to refer to her. I would choose to just use Valadon when referring to her by name to make it more consistent and slightly more formal.One sentence, "The “delicate hand” of a female painter goes undiscerned in her painting " did stand out to me. I think you might want to say it has been noted/stated at the beginning of the sentence.  M.stoss17 (talk) 20:06, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Firstly, you've added a LOT of in-depth info to this article - very well done! I noted a couple of the same things as the reviewer above me did, but I think you've actually already corrected them. I was going to note that the "Artist" section was a bit daunting in terms of its length, but adding the subtitles (especially the Style subtitle) really breaks it up and makes it much clearer to read. Personally, I'm very inclined to scroll right down to the Style heading when reading about artists on Wiki, and you included a lot about her style which is really helpful. Your writing overall is concise and stays away from art-y jargon - anyone could read this and understand her style and unique position in the art world. Secondly, in terms of neutrality, you did a really excellent job wording certain things. I feel like Valadon is one of those artists that people have strong opinions about, but all of your edits are void of any kind of opinion. Even when listing adjectives about her (i.e., very focused, ambitious, rebellious, determined, self-confident, and passionate woman), you added "was considered" at the beginning and a citation immediately following the statement to make it neutral and legitimate. Also, I'd say that the introduction is a little long (although not all of it is your writing), but it might benefit from having a couple sentences moved elsewhere in the article - but that is kind of a nitpicky thing. Lastly, I love that there is a gallery of several images at the end of the article. Having the gallery is the best of both worlds - it pleases the people that don't want images clouding all of the text, but also pleases those that would really like to have visual aids. Overall, very well done! Frankiefillis (talk) 17:18, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Image request
Hello, and if someone more tech and image-upload savvy than myself could find and upload an image of Valadon's The Blue Room it would be the image for only one of two English Wikipedia articles on Valadon's work. And more pages please (here are some of Valadon's paintings, with almost all linking to just the image and without an article). Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:03, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Painting by Rusiñol
That painting by Rusiñol is either mis-dated, or that is not Utrillo. The date displayed is 1891 - so Utrillo, who was born in December 1883, would have been seven or eight years old in 1891. That guy with a mustache is obviously older than eight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:2703:74:482D:6403:DAD4:F319 (talk) 14:19, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Bouquet de fleur, par Suzanne Valadon.jpg
 * Still Life with Basket of Apples Vase of Flowers 1928.jpg
 * Young Girl in Front of a Window by Suzanne Valadon, San Diego Museum of Art.JPG

Semi-protected edit request on 22 December 2023
Expand section on death reorganize the article, it looks bad; include gallery near the bottom and at least have personal life go above it (include information firstly over references, see also, etc - this is a good principle to follow). 69.174.166.22 (talk) 19:45, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I moved the contents of the Death section to the Personal life section. I am unsure what you mean by Expand section on death. Do you have citations that have more information about her death? Peaceray (talk) 22:55, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Great article
Thank you to whomever put the work into this. I can't get enough of her or Satie. Viriditas (talk) 20:07, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Re: W. Somerset Maugham

 * Valadon was the basis for the character Suzanne Rouvier in the novel The Razor's Edge by W. Somerset Maugham.[76][better source needed]

I'm pinging you here about this quoted passage because you've recently been active. Do you think we should remove this statement? I've looked in the available literature, and the only thing I've been able to confirm is the following:
 * At New York in February 1949, *Maugham purchased from the gallery of Paul Rosenberg Utrillo's Une Rue au Conquent for $4,500, placing it in the name of his daughter, *Lady John (Liza) Hope

This is according to A William Somerset Maugham Encyclopedia (1997) edited by Rogal. It appears on page 292 and has two citations: Morgan, Ted. (1980)[1979]. Maugham. New York: Simon and Schuster; and Vinson, James, ed. (1990). International Dictionary of Art and Artists. Volume 2: Artists. Chicago and London: St. James Press. As you are likely aware, the painting, Une Rue au Conquent was made by Maurice Utrillo, the son of Valadon. That's the only verified connection I could find, but perhaps there are more sources out there. For reference, Maugham published The Razor's Edge five years before he acquired the painting. Viriditas (talk) 02:09, 30 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Stay tuned, I am working on rewording & sources that back that rewording. Peaceray (talk) 18:35, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Have a look at that I made to Suzanne Valadon to see if you think that I have somewhat corrected the problem. I am still searching for a more reliable source, but I think that this will do for now. Peaceray (talk) 19:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Peaceray, thanks for all the time you put into this. Unfortunately, I think we have a citogenesis problem.  User:Jacob be Ephraim added the material in August 2017.  It was quickly reverted as unsourced.  It was then added back in again with a citation to the novel, which isn't useful. According to the page source, Serene Greene's website "Art Literacy Academy", appears to have been written in 2020, and copies the Wikipedia context in its entirety, three years after Jacob be Ephraim wrote it, so we can cross that off the list.  Moving on to the next source, we have the personal research of "The Wanderling" which the formatted citation says is attributed to "Dennis T. Burke", but this may be wrong, I don't know.  Internet Archive traces claims about Valadon by the Wanderling all the way back to 2009, but I suspect it goes much, much farther back into the 1990s, as the Wanderling is likely one of the "first 100", as I like to call them.  For what it's worth, not taking the Wanderling too seriously is part of his site as well.  Other aspects of the site indicate that this is personal, unpublished research, so I'm not sure we can use it.  On the other hand, the Wanderling is somewhat famous for obsessively researching Maugham over many years, but without actual published sources, I don't know if we can cite them.  Given the Wanderling's involvement with Wikipedia, I am beginning to wonder if Jacob be Ephraim is our very own Wanderling themself.  Then we have the wonderful, 2014 slide presentation by Elizabeth Bertell.  She also appears to be citing the Wanderling, but that's just my guess.  Next, we have Prabook, which copied the material from Wikipedia, so we can immediately discard that.  Next, we have the 2012 personal blog by someone named "Meg".  I think it's a safe bet that she's citing the Wanderling.  Finally, we have A William Somerset Maugham Encyclopedia, which says nothing about Valdon and The Razor's Edge.  In my edition, on p. 292, it only talks about the painting that I quoted in full up above, not the novel. You have cited a page 253, which I assume is due to a different edition.  To summarize, I'm not seeing any actual support for the claim that the character was based on Valadon, even if we assume it is true.  At best, the only thing we can say is that Wanderling made this claim popular, but we would need a good secondary source about the Wanderling to do that.  I would recommend deletion at this point, unless you have some new information that I missed. Viriditas (talk) 22:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * In my haste, I forgot to add one important thing: Maugham biographer Anthony Curtis (British journalist) (1926-2014) doesn't say anything about Valadon in his famous introduction to the 1992 Penguin Books addition. However, and this is really interesting to me, within that introduction, on pages xii-xiii, in a few paragraphs, Curtis discusses the character of Suzanne Rouvier, and to my mind, he is, by all accounts, describing the real person of Suzanne Valadon!  This cannot be denied.  It's evident in the introduction, yet he never mentions the name of Valadon. Is this the true origin of the claim? But, all is not lost: Curtis does give us one pointer: "Suzanne [Rouvier] comes straight out of Maupassant..."  That's very interesting, but to understand this we need to go to our article on Miquel Utrillo: "He was a frequent visitor to the cabaret, Le Chat Noir, where he met the artist, Suzanne Valadon, and became her lover. In 1883, she gave birth to a son; Maurice."  Now, who do we know that was also a frequent visitor to Chat Noir while Utrillo and Valadon were lovers?  Let's look at John Storm's The Valadon Drama: The Life Of Suzanne Valadon (1958):
 * "...while Bruant was at the Chat Noir and his lively wit and argot songs depicting the joys and miseries of the dispossessed were enchanting the night-club crowd, the intelligentsia, which considered itself responsible for the success of both Salis and Bruant, withdrew to a room in the rear which became known as 'the Institute'...There Guy de Maupassant read his stories aloud, Sarah Bernhardt and Coquelin cadet performed Shakespearean dialogues, and Stephane Mallarme and sometimes Paul Verlaine spoke their  verses. Anatole France, Andre Gill, Jean-Louis Forain, Georges Auriol, Andr Antoine, and young Claude Debussy, too, exhibited their various skills when the mood was upon them, and were roundly cheered by that group of artists, models, musicians, students, and writers who were pleased to consider themselves, according to one of their number, 'the only intellectual force of the Third Republic.'  Young Miguel Utrillo, with his two-hour lecture on the Bal del Ciri y was not out of place in such company...His lecture at the Chat Noir delighted Suzanne Valadon as much as it did the other habitues of the Institute. Whether or not this was the occasion of their first meeting we do not  know. Suzanne often spoke of Miguel's lecture, especially of the contrepas and sardanas which he subsequently taught her and which she often later performed at parties. However, shortly after the performance at the Chat Noir she was to be found frequently in his company."
 * So, one now wonders, was Curtis implying that Maugham was citing Maupassant's recollections of Valadon in his portrayal of Rouvier? There's an open question here. Viriditas (talk) 20:57, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I will ask on the refdesk, as it is more than likely someone with greater experience and knowledge knows the answer. Viriditas (talk) 21:07, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Reference_desk/Humanities. Viriditas (talk) 21:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it is good to know that the Serene Greene & Prabook sources may be / are circular. Maybe we need to scan the Valadon & Maugham biographies for more info. Maugham certainly returned to Paris in 1905 & was meeting artists & writers (see [https://archive.org/details/somersetmaughaml00meye/page/60/mode/2up].
 * I removed "Greene 2020" & "Prabook 3743189" as circular. Peaceray (talk) 22:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There certainly seems to be a lot on Valadon.
 * I will not be able to attend to this for awhile as I will be away for the next several days then evaluating WikiConference North America program submissions after that. Peaceray (talk) 22:25, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No worries. Enjoy the summer. Viriditas (talk) 22:32, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I will not be able to attend to this for awhile as I will be away for the next several days then evaluating WikiConference North America program submissions after that. Peaceray (talk) 22:25, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No worries. Enjoy the summer. Viriditas (talk) 22:32, 1 July 2024 (UTC)