Talk:Swallow

Myths and Stories about Swallows
Are there any myths or stories about swallows?


 * Well, they're mentioned often in Monty Python and the Holy Grail... dunno if that's the sort of thing you're looking for, though.--Deridolus 06:31, 10 July 2005 (UTC)


 * If there are, they are likely to be specific to individual species, esp Barn Swallow jimfbleak 12:04, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I think we should include somthing about Monty Python and the Holy Grail
 * No, we shouldn't. --24.64.174.183 (talk) 21:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Greek mythology (see Edith Hamilton) includes the story of sisters Procne and Philomela. Philomela's tongue is cut out by Procne's abusive husband, Tereus. Procne kills she and Tereus's child. As Tereus chases them, the gods turn the sisters into birds. Procne becomes the nightingale, which sings the sad song. Philomela, who has no tongue, is turned into the swallow, which cannot sing, but only twitter.


 * The myth that swallows hibernate, and could be found in a state of torpor, even under water, was a commonplace of natural history and even confused an obervant naturalist like Rev. Gilbert White of Selborne, Hampshire. This mistaken myth should be traced in a section of the article.--Wetman (talk) 22:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * These kinds of myth were common for other migratory birds too - the Maori thought that the Long-tailed Cuckoo hibernated in the winter. It would be good to add this to the article, it's all about having the time, there is a lot that could be added to this article. Maybe I'll add this article to my lift of future family extensions. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  22:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Requested move
Swallow (bird) → Swallow – to put the main meaning of "Swallow" at Swallow. --Yath 11:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
I'm actually pretty curious about this, and I would presume that others would come to wikipedia for more information on the matter. McKay 19:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I found a good resource at style.org. Perhaps the information should be included here? McKay 19:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Not here, should be on the species' page. There is no reason to suppose that other swallows of different sizes and structure have the same aerodynmics. jimfbleak 05:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * A. half the species articles don't exist (red links).
 * B. the swallow list is incomplete (I know there happens to be a "west african swallow", but don't know which genus they're in or I'd add them.
 * C, are you claiming that "African Swallow" and "European Swallow" are species of birds? My guess is no, but then would a seperate article be written about African swallows and European swallows (that don't reference Monty Python and the Holy Grail). If so, is there enough information to create an encyclopedic article about the African swallows? My guess for this would also be "no", in which case the information belongs best here. McKay 05:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Or add this information to the article on the Holy Grail given that the two swallow articles redirect there. --Swift 08:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * B The list is complete, "West African Swallow" must be a synomym or subspecies
 * C If they are not real species, I agree that the grail suggestion is most appropriate. If the data doesn't refer to real birds, what's the point? However, the source above identifies a plausible candidate for African Swallow, and European Swallow must surely be Barn Swallow jimfbleak 14:53, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't claim to really know anything on swallows, so I defer to your wisdom in this regard. The information might belong on the movie's page, but I think it should belong with swallows.


 * B The source above references "Hirundo domicella" as the west african swallow, and that one isn't in the list. He does reference a couple sources that I'm not sure of their accuracy, but here they are anyway:
 * Chris & Tilde Stuart, Birds of Africa: From Seabirds to Seed-Eaters, MIT Press (1999)
 * G. L. Maclean, Roberts’ Birds of Southern Africa, John Voelcker Bird Book Fund, Cape Town, South Africa (1985)
 * C With your suggestion that Barn Swallow is possibly the swallow referred to in Monty Python, You're probably right, but I am curious as to why you think that that is the one? Is it the most common kind of swallow in Europe? I did look at that article, and that article does have an estimate for the swallows speed. That's good.
 * So, that's my two bits. Just thought I'd make the query. McKay 23:00, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe I'm really going out on a limb here, but is it a possiblity (even a remote one) that the members of Monty Python, instead of looking up in their reference books, just used "European" and "African" as makeshift official terms? I'm not saying that the jokes were seldome elaborate, but might it be possible that Monty Python just went cheap on the research? (Not that I'm eager to end this discussion &mdash; a great source of joy ). --Swift 03:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I will totally admit that this is a possibility, but the fact remains that people really do want to know the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow. Also, it seems in line with the text of the movie. "the swallow may fly south with the sun..." "What, a swallow carrying a coconut?" "it could be carried by an african swallow" "Oh, yeah, an african swallow maybe, but not a European swallow, that's my point." See, because Arthur said swallow, the guard just assumed the Barn Swallow, the swallow known by "swallow" in Europe, or the European swallow. The other guard was thinking outside the box, and thought of the (biggest) swallow he could think of, the African Swallow. Or maybe he just meant Swallows that inhabit Africa (they might generally be bigger). Really, I don't know anything about swallows, but I do think that people will come looking for the answer to that question. It doesn't have to mention the movie at all, but I predict that readers will come. Take Assyria. Another of the questions asked by the bridgekeeper, is "What is the capital of Assyria" the article on this nation-state lists the capitals that it has had. If we knew the time period during which the movie took place, we could determine what the capital should be based on that article. McKay 05:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * (Re: Mckaysalisbury: If we knew the time period during which the movie took place, we could determine what the capital should be based on that article. Umm, if I recall correctly, the movie is set in 932 A.D., per that blackletter (typeface term, actually white on black background) introductory screen, but the various political entities known as Assyria were long since gone by then, so the bridge guard might as well have asked "What is the sum of three and eggplant?".
 * 165.176.7.3 (talk) 22:57, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * the guard just assumed. Erm. You do realize that these are fictional characters. And their dialogue is composed with humor, not logical or robust structure in mind!
 * As for the list of capitals which the Assyrian Empire has had; are you implying that they were put up to answer the bridgekeeper's question?! If you are simply pointing out the usefulness of such information, then I'd argue that it would be most useful to list the airspeed info on the Monty Python and the Holy Grail article as the origin of this question is of (equal? more?) importance and interest. --Swift 19:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I realize that they are fictional characters, but their conversation is valid according to English. When someone mentions "swallows" when referring to birds, particularly in Europe, it is an ambiguous reference. They could mean the Hirundinidae family, or they could mean the barn swallow, the movie plays on this ambiguity.
 * No, Assyria should have the information on the capitals regardless of the movie, capitals are an integral part of an article on a nation-state. If someone really wanted to know the capital of Assyria, they should check the article on Assyria. If someone wants to know the airspeed velocity of an (unladen) swallow, he should probably find that at Swallow or Airspeed velocities of various birds or Effects of loads on the velocity of air flight or something like that. The articles on swallows seems the most natural place for this kind of information.
 * But that doesn't mean it should belong here. My question here is what "african swallow" means. This page mentions only one "african swallow" the South African Swallow, the style article mentions two, the South African Swallow and the West African Swallow. Does such a species exist? Swift mentions that African and European may be made up, but "European Swallow" is not an incorrect term? What does "African Swallow" typically mean? One species? a group? McKay 20:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Article rated per request
I gave this article a start rating. There is some information here, but a lot is still missing. The habitat section is currently just the nesting site - rather than anything else. I'm dubious that swallows hold territories (I'll check later), no information on taxonomy, relatives, worldwide distribution, migration, relationship with humans. Breeding information is currently in two separate places, and incomplete. Can I suggest a layout for family pages similar to that used by albatross? (Vain, I know, since I wrote it, but its based on the layout used in HBW). Sabine's Sunbird talk 00:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Habitat (other than aerial) is difficult for the family as a whole, some are open country, some woodland, some always near water. Same migration, some do, some don't. Some of this is covered in the species accounts. I have Turner and Rose, Swallows and Martins ISBN 0-7470-3205-5. if that helps. jimfbleak 06:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it could be covered in broad strokes. Most familes are fairly diverse, and there are always exceptions. Writing family pages is really hard but something that needs to be tackled. Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

What's incubation?
In Swallow the sentence "Even in species where the male does not incubate the eggs the male may sit on them when the female is away to reduce heat loss." confuses me. Isn't sitting on the eggs to prevent heat loss incubation? Thanks. Saintrain (talk) 20:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh. Yeah, that could be clearer. Incubation is imparting warmth to the eggs from the body, not just stopping heat loss. I'll think about how to fix that. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  23:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Old World and New World?
In Swallow there's talk of a "New world" and "Old World", as in the sentence "The mud-nesters are most common in the Old World, particularly Africa, whereas cavity-nesters are the rule in the New World.". Perhaps this is some lingo used when talking about birds' geography, because it's not a geographical description that I'm familiar with. Does any one know? Peter sjoberg (talk) 6:41, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a fairly common old school way to differentiate between the Americas (New World) and the Eurasia/Africa landmass (Old World). Biologists use it when taking biogeography (example Old World warbler versus New World warbler) but the terms are by no means restricted to biology. Sabine's Sunbird   talk  06:51, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Words-as-words
According to the MOS, using a word as word (such as mentioning how swallow and martin are defined in the lead) is supposed to be in italics rather than quotes...only this can be a headache in biology articles as italics get used for binomial names, genera etc. I'll leave it to as to what he wants to do about it.....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:22, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
 * White-naped xenopsaris snuck through FAC this way. If anyone seriously objects we can change it. We'll need to move that content out of the lead anyway, or at least cover it in the main as well as lead. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  00:56, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Study linking swallows with tits and/or whiteeyes
Which are these? Be good to add....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 15:22, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
 * That came from the HBW, which is fairly old now. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:02, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * But surely they were basing it on some evidence or study...? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:29, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
 * NB:I recommend putting species list into a separate list article. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 15:29, 29 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Agreed, worth thinking about. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:02, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Papers on phylogeny to consider including


More to come Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:02, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Image from this article to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Pied-winged swallow (Hirundo leucosoma).jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on 2018-12-10. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2018-12-10. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 13:14, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

So are saw-wings not hirundines?
Birds in this family are known as ....swallows, ....martins or ....saw-wings. Saw-wings are a distinct genus, therefore are not swallows or martins, except in so far as they are hirundines. Psalidoprocne is a small genus, with members that are not well known and live far away from the main centres of the English language, and so are overlooked in many English language sources. But they are hirundines, and any description of the family that omits them is therefore incomplete and therefore flawed. And yet Amakuru seems determined to prevent my attempts to include them in the descriptions of the family. Kevin McE (talk) 09:09, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * They are a type of swallow. I get your point but many animals can have different names from their common name - roadrunners are types of cuckoos and scaup, eider, pochard, teal, gadwall and widgeon are all types of duck. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  00:47, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Papers to include
Some papers to include. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:00, 5 January 2019 (UTC)



Clarification please?

 * The "Taxonomy and systematics" sectiion, the second paragraph, 3rd, 4th, and 5th sentence: The words "core groups" are used, then "core martins", and basal, including "The saw-wings are the most basal of the three...", and "the more basal saw-wings...". Without any linking the average reader would likely have to go off-wiki to get any understanding. Of course, if by any chance one discovers Basal (phylogenetics), the article riddled with "citation needed" tags, I am not sure that is the greatest of ideas. If one reads far enough one may see (1st sentence, 3rd paragraph in the "Usage" section), "Despite the ubiquity of the usage of basal, systematists try to avoid its usage because its application to extant groups is unnecessary and misleading."
 * At any rate, could someone look at this to see if it can be written using a more "basal" approach? "...many students lacked even a basal familiarity with the topic". Merriam-Webster.com Thesaurus, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/basal "Basal"; accessed 11 Apr. 2023. Thanks, -- Otr500 (talk) 15:58, 11 April 2023 (UTC)