Talk:Swastika (Germanic Iron Age)

A fact from Swastika (Germanic Iron Age) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 10 September 2010 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that historian Hilda Ellis Davidson theorizes that the Swastika symbol was used by Norsemen to represent Thor's hammer?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2010/September.

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Denmark[edit]

I note that all examples in runic contexts seem to be from Denmark, and all seem to date 3rd to 9th century. Are there any instances earlier than 200 or later than 900? Any from Sweden or Norway?

The frequent occurrence on C-bracteates (interpreted as Woden/Odin) seems to speak against the later identification with Thor, but this is my own observation, I haven't seen this point in literature so far. But if the swastika is a symbol associated with *Wodin in the 6th century, it seems strange that it should suddenly come to symbolize Thor's hammer in the Viking Age. --dab (𒁳) 10:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oseberg[edit]

The image at right has been looking for a home on en wiki for some time now. Maybe an image gallery could be initiated for this article? --80.218.71.231 (talk) 12:15, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

we can transclude it. It's a good example of "swastikas with feet". --dab (𒁳) 14:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved all the ancient Germanic swastikas I can find to Commons:Category:Swastikas in ancient Germanic culture. I think that the Anglo-Saxon cinerary urn that I uploaded a week ago is a particularly interesting example as it has so many swastikas on it. BabelStone (talk) 20:43, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

this may be a detail, but I chose the title carefully to read "Germanic Iron Age", which is an archaeological term and does not imply origin in a "Germanic culture". The "Buddha-bucket" for example may well be a Celtic or British import. The term "ancient Germanic culture" does present all sorts of problem, especially if you are going to include the 9th century in "antiquity", and it is much more straightforward just to use archaeological terminology for archaeological finds. --dab (𒁳) 06:32, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I added some images of Iron Age finds displaying swastikas to the category BabelStone created. Unfortunately, the source text does not specify the precise location of many of the finds. It does, however, have several additional images of Iron Age brateates and other objects with swastikas. --80.218.71.231 (talk) 09:05, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We now have an image of DR B25 Ølst, one of the bracteates mentioned in the article. --80.218.71.231 (talk) 11:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This strip of Iron Age cloth is also quite interesting. Worsaae (1883:75) notes: "From a female grave near Randers, of the tenth century, were taken out pieces of woolen cloth, with gold and silver thread woven into it, and trimmed with red silk. The occurrence of the swastikas, or Thor's mark, surrounded by the sign of Thor's hammer, makes it not improbable that these stuffs were woven in the North itself." --80.218.71.231 (talk) 12:27, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

these can go to the commons category. I think the article now transcludes enough images considering its length. The interpretation by Worsaae (1883:75) is just speculation. We're looking for evidence that the symbol was associated with Thor, but some 19th century authors take this just for granted. As I said above, I think this is dubious, as the symbol in the early period occurs systematically with *Wodin. Perhaps it became known as "Thor's hammer" by the 11th century, but even that doesn't seem to be based on positive evidence. --dab (𒁳) 13:40, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I uploaded the image of DR B25 because I thought we might like to exchange it for one of the current images, seeing as we have a section titled "Bracteates". I'm not going to push for it or anything, though. I'm happy enough with adding to the commons category. --80.218.71.231 (talk) 14:03, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further examples[edit]

Aha, good to see a lot of my swastika information collected from various articles into one place. To add to the discussion, I remember reading that some kind of Germanic Iron Age stool was found in Germany with a swastika on it (in one of Davidson's works?), and I believe there may also be an Icelandic grimoire that refers to a swastika as "Thor's hammer" somewhere, strengthening if not cementing the Thor-swastika theory. I don't have the details on hand for these right now. For what it's worth, I've also seen a garment reconstructed from a swastika-patterned Iron Age cloth at the Bornholm Museum in Rønne (I may even have an image somewhere, now that I think of it), but I do not recall it looking like the one illustrated above, so perhaps it's another Germanic garment with a swastika motif. There's also pottery in Denmark with swastika stamps (on display at the National Museum of Denmark in Copenhagen) similar to the English examples, which I recall seeing some commentary on at some point.

Furthermore, it's entirely possible that those bracteates, which were worn by women apparently for the purpose of protection and which clearly sometimes depict Odin with raven and horse, may also call upon protection of Thor by way of using the flyfot. Thor is, after all, quite the protector in later Germanic mythology, and I would be surprised if there was no commentary anywhere coming to exactly that conclusion. :bloodofox: (talk) 14:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In Jón Árnason's folklore collection, this symbol is referred to as Þórshamar. I don't know what sources he had or how far this can be traced back - for all I know Jón was just speculating based on something Grimm or someone said. I could try to check some of the grimoires but that would be a lot of work and surely there is already some secondary literature on this. Haukur (talk) 14:22, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone has a copy of Stephen Flowers' book on Icelandic grimoires [1], it is possible that he has something in it about this (in fact, a Google Books search yields a snippet view that hints that he may). Well, that is, assuming such a symbol exists in said grimoires... :bloodofox: (talk) 14:33, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proto-Indo-European Religeon[edit]

Is there no information available on hypothesised links between the Germanic symbol and the identical symbol found in Asia? Leegee23 (talk) 20:03, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence, other than the symbol keeps popping up here and there since the Neolithic. Don't be fooled by the swastika article, which is massaged by Hindu editors into the appearance that the "Hindu" symbol is very old. In fact, the symbol had no particular currency in India before its use in Buddhism in the final centuries BCE. It also had no particular currency in northern Europe. It was just one geometrical shape among many. It is only in retrospect, in the early 20th century, that people began to attach special "Indo-European" significance to it. This is an illusion. The Nazis just added a certain aroma to this illusion, but they didn't invent it. --dab (𒁳) 14:00, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]