Talk:Symphonic black metal

Summoning
I believe Summoning is not a Gothic Metal band.. it is a "tribute" to Tolkien's literature, being largely inspired by LOTR (the original books, not the movies) : 23:14, 26 August 2005 (UTC)~Rui C.

Nothing to do with it, though I do not know of Summoning, Cradle of Filth is not symphonic black it is straight up Gothic. This works because Gothic metal is a mix of doom and black, yes black. Symphonic black bands rather are Dimmu Borgir, Tvangeste, Abyssos. To go back to what the discussion was supposed to be, symphonic black is in no way the same subgenre as melodic black. Melodic black is illnath with emphasis on speed beat and keyboards. Nearly all the atmosphere is gone from it whereas some remains in symphonic.


 * Cradle of Filth is not Gothic Metal. Gothic Metal is not a mixture of 'Doom And Black' either. I suggest going and reading the Gothic Metal article before you make such foolish claims. Ley Shade 21:15, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Foolish is having Cradle of Filth in this article. They are Extreme Gothic Metal whether people want to accept it or not and I'm removing them. 12:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.100.86 (talk)

That second person is hurting my soul. First, Summoning is ambient black metal w/ folk and classical elements. It's got the orchestral thing going for it but it's not symphonic black metal. Gothic metal is not a mix of black and doom. That just kills me. That is just completely retarded and I don't know where that person got such a stupid idea. I listen to some black/doom metal where they combine those genres and it is NOTHING like gothic metal whatsoever. Do some research and listen to some music, please. Gothic metal bands are rarely even slow or heavy like doom bands. Nor do they sound anything like black metal. PS CoF is gothic metal w/ black infl. or gothic black metal. Either way they're gay.  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 09:56, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Opeth
What the hell is Opeth doing here?! I agree they´re hard to classify in one specific genre, but... to call them Symphonic Black Metal is just not knowing nothing about anything at all. There's no symphonic metal elements to their music at all, much less black metal (excluding occasional riffs in their early albums). If anything, they're closer to Progressive death metal, yet this doesn't suit them either,althought that's not the point here. I'm removing them form this list. They have absolutely NOTHING to do here. # Likelightoflies 06:26, 04 September 2007 (UTC)

Opeth are hard to place, but as Likelightoflies says they are not Symphonic Black Metal. I would suggest progressive death core —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.146.4 (talk) 15:53, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Melodic is not Symphonic
Too many mall tards confusing melodic with symphonic bm (and the other way around)... <-- Just some constructive criticism —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.74.21.43 (talk) 14:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * We know, it gets pretty annoying. − ₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  16:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * dude listen to catamenia theyre symphonic not just melodic... so u guys should stop removing them —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.20.38.127 (talk) 00:00, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * That's just your opinion or point of view and what we say they are doesn't matter much. I think they're not and are just melodic black metal with a progressiveness about them in some songs. If there's a reliable source out there for them being classified as such then fine. Otherwise, listen to Emperor then come back to me. − ₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  00:08, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Constant removal of Cradle of Filth
I don't know if I should undo the latest edit that removed CoF from the list. Are there any sources claiming that it is or it is not symphonic black metal? Just thought we could decide it here so we could point people (in edit summary) to look here while reverting their edits. Nyme (talk) 14:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Multiple issues
This article had multiple issues.It almost didnt pass ANY of wikipedia policies.It didnt have any citation and it was a kind of Original research and a personal essey.I did some clean ups and improved the article using reliable sources.But I did not erase the unsourced claims which were written before my edits.I just tagged them as . Solino the Wolf  00:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I can appreciate your bold edits to try and improve this article but I think there is something you must know about the 'reliable' sources before using them. The key site here is allmusic. Even though it is a very well-known site for referencing sources primarily on bands, it also has many major flaws and the site puts out a large amount of dubious content most editors here will strongly disagree with as blatant misinformation. For example, Opeth is listed as symphonic black metal and we all know they definetely are not. Neither are Therion, Nightwish or Lacuna Coil  symphonic black. Of all things, Emperor  aren't labeled as symphonic black. Allmusic is probably the only site that labels those symphonic/gothic metal bands (and Opeth) in such a way making the credibility of allmusic plummet.


 * I also think that the gothic black metal section trails off and focuses too much on just 1 or 2 bands. Also, I noticed, most (if not all) of the history section is basically a copy of the gothic black metal section in the gothic metal article. While I understand this for some sections about a summary of related topics that go into one another, there really isn't a lot about the real template of 'symphonic black metal'. The section on "Symphonic black's development" also does this and entirely speaks of just one band with a few mentions of rather (in my opinion) much more important bands in the genre (sure they might of been pioneers but...) which might clearly shape the genre's style and take away some of the misconception that many bands have gothic influences which Emperor has barely any influences of (if any). The precursors section could use a little work and needs to be expanded unless it was meant for Moonspell and Cradle of Filth to be those bands. And last but not least, the characteristics section has one source and a dangerous one at that.


 * Now on a more positive outlook, I think that this is a good start for sourcing this article and putting down the basis of what a genre article should contain. I think a "lyrical themes and visual elements" section or the like would be a great addition to the article at some point. Just recently, I found a review of Bal-Sagoth's album The Chthonic Chronicles here which would be a good example of one specific lyrical theme typical of the genre. FireCrystal (talk) 03:25, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

stylistic origins
im removing scandinavian death metal and gothic metal from the stylistic origins because the website dosnt say anything about those genres besides being related styles and nothing else —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.10.54 (talk) 04:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Obtained Enslavement
Metal archives link and Wikipedia page

This band seems to be one of the first incarnations of Symphonic Black Metal. Metal Archives calls them pioneers. I think they should be added. - Csehszlovakze (talk) 19:43, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Fine. Just find a reference that passes WP:RS and add them! Note however, Metal Archives do not count as a reliable source. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:28, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

This article needs deletion...
Or a complete renovation. Is it just me or is this article almost completely just about gothic black metal? What the hell? It barely even talks about symphonic black metal at all. I concede that there is some relation in the styles, just as symphonic metal and gothic metal are closely related, but they are not the same. Gothic black metal should have its own article. This article doesn't even talk about how this style developed. It came from Emperor. They were the first of this style. Always have been. Yet this article barely mentions them. As it stands now this is a complete shit article.  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 09:38, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention this article makes it sound like gothic-influenced black metal/ gothic black metal came before symphonic black metal, which is again misinformation. They developed at the same time. Not to mention gothic black metal didn't mature until much later. There were a ton of symphonic black metal bands around way way before there were a ton of gothic black metal bands around.  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 09:43, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, has anyone read the section called "Symphonic black's development"? It's literally entirely about Cradle of Filth, except for the last sentence. That's not what people are looking for when reading about symphonic black metal's history. I would suggest that section be completely re-written by someone with a broader understanding of the subject, or removed. PNB (talk) 06:30, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Avant-garde metal.com (yet again!)
Just a reminder that no webzines pass WP:RS unless they have had their content published by an independent, third-party source somewhere (hence Allmusic and About.com are fine; MusicMight is fine if written by Garry-Sharpe Young (username Taniwha) or published in one of the Rockdetector books; anything published in an e-version of a print magazine, and written by their staff; staff writings from Sputnikmusic etc). Avantegarde-metal.com, Tartarean Desire, Teufels Tomb, ANUS, Metal Archives, Metal Storm, Metal Observer and any of the million and one other webzines must not be used as reliable sourcces (with the exception of band interviews, to include band member quotes or opinions); their staff are not professionals, and should not, ever, be used as sources. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 10:51, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, thank you for the clarification. I'm fairly new to using Wikipedia, so I'm not the best at spotting reliable sources. Avant-garde metal.com looked okay to me because there is some editorial oversight and the contributor I was referencing has a BA in music, but if this source is considered unreliable, I will not use it. Tartarean Desire was another one I thought was reliable because they do have a (fairly broad) criteria that contributors must meet, and contributors are compensated, but again, if considered unreliable, I will not use.
 * Thank you for clarifying this,
 * --3family6 13:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3family6 (talk • contribs)

Carpathian Forest
Not anything like symphonic black metal. This is well known. However, after losing a member at one point they DID play symphonic black metal on ONE album. Not sure if that actually warrants the band being in this list. However, when I tried to add that piece of info, I've been told that things like that aren't added to a list. Not sure where that rule came from exactly. Aesthetically speaking I can see how my edit might not be pleasing as it does kind of lopside the list format. However, I still think the aforemtioned info is important. Maybe I could put a symbol in the list and put the info down below? Thoughts on how this info can be added so everyone is happy?  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 23:24, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Nevermind. As much as I like Blackmetalbaz, I found out that what I'm talking has precedent. See List of folk metal bands. Their is no rule against such a thing, though I may word it differently.  Blizzard Beast  ''$ODIN' 23:28, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Symphonic metal is not the sylistic origin for symphonic black metal.
Symphonic black metal was coined in the early '90s, while on the other side symphonic metal was somewhere more closer to the mid '90s, so it can't possibly be a combination of black metal and symphonic metal because at that time, when symphonic black metal was coined there was no symphonic metal. If you want a source for this, look at this article, and than look at the symphonic metal article, there's nothing more to prove. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.24.182 (talk) 22:32, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

New Source
Has anyone even looked at Encyclopedia Metallum? I have found it pretty reliable Darkgamma (talk) 10:21, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem with Encyclopedia Metallum is that it is a user-generated wiki. This automatically disqualifies it from being reliable.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 12:42, 1 May 2012 (UTC)