Talk:Tamil language/Archive 8

Semi-protected edit request on 30 January 2020
Why dont you add Canada along with the the list of countries in recognition of minority language status ? It is very well known that January every month is Tamil Heritage Month throughout Canada proclaimed by Parliament. 2001:1970:5E1A:9700:58A2:DA1F:D974:7106 (talk) 22:26, 30 January 2020 (UTC)


 * ❌. Please provide reliable sources that support this addition. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 23:09, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Sources below from government websites

https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/41-2/bill/C-471/first-reading

https://pm.gc.ca/en/news/statements/2017/01/14/statement-prime-minister-canada-thai-pongal

https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/bills/parliament-40/session-1/bill-111

https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/news/2018/01/statement_by_ministerjolyontamilheritagemonth.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1970:5E1A:9700:985:6532:BF66:4E39 (talk) 01:08, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Phonology
The second colloquial recording (the short story) contains quite frequent uses of a velar or uvular fricative or, which is not found in the consonant chart. Probably this sound is an allophone of another consonant (perhaps /k/). However, if such strong allophony exists in the language, allophones should be mentioned, be it in the table or in a note. Thank you. 178.4.151.167 (talk) 12:41, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2020
Canada has declared January of every year as Tamil Heritage Month which was proclaimed by an act of parliament. Canada needs to be added to the list of countries for recognized minority language. This is already mentioned in the article itself and Please see all the reliable sources below, its all from Canadian government websites. , please add Canada to the List of countries with recognized minority status

https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/41-2/bill/C-471/first-reading

https://pm.gc.ca/en/news/statements/2017/01/14/statement-prime-minister-canada-thai-pongal

https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/bills/parliament-40/session-1/bill-111

https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/news/2018/01/statement_by_ministerjolyontamilheritagemonth.html 2001:1970:5E1A:9700:E801:DC0C:C8D:B0F0 (talk) 15:10, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

❌. Please provide reliable sources that explicitly mention the status of Tamil as recognized minority language. The Tamil Heritage Month honors the heritage of the Tamil community in Canada, but that is not equal to recognized minority language status. –Austronesier (talk) 18:08, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Should't the word "century" be used instead of "millennium" in the History section
The 2nd sentence of the 1st paragraph of the History section is "Linguistic reconstruction suggests that Proto-Dravidian was spoken around the third millennium BC, possibly in the region around the lower Godavari river basin in peninsular India.". Shouldn't it be "third century BC" instead of "third millennium BC" as Old Tamil's period is mentioned as 300 BC to AD 700 in the 2nd paragraph of the same section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by નિકુંજ ભટ્ટ (talk • contribs) 14:07, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this observation, but the statement is correctly cited from the source (Southworth 2005). Proto-Dravidian is the ancestor of all Dravidian languages, so it cannot have been spoken at the same time or only shortly before Old Tamil was first documented. The diversication of Proto-Dravidian into its descendants (including Old Tamil) must have taken a reasonably long time, based on the differences observed between the individual Dravidian languages. You can read more about it in Dravidian languages. –Austronesier (talk) 14:25, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Regarding Spelling of tamizh
Being a 'tamizhiyan' I'm from tamizh community knowing very well, According tamizh letters, the name tamizh written as to be 'Tamizh ' not 'Tamil '...Can any one correct this error... Jagadhesan B (talk) 15:37, 23 July 2020 (UTC)


 * This is not an error. Tamil is the official name used by Tamil Nadu.--Kanags (talk) 07:44, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * And it's the commonly used English term, as you can check from a zillion of reliable sources. –Austronesier (talk) 08:53, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah ofcourse we are using tamil instead tamizh, that's error that's why I'm suggest to change Jagadhesan B (talk) 03:50, 1 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Only Tamils and Malayalees use ZH for that particular sound, it is not the standard in the rest of English speaking world. Hence its not appropriate to write as such. Kanatonian (talk) 20:05, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Tamil loan words in Hebrew Bible
David Shulman's book, Tamil a biography, has on page 20, highlights early Tamil loanwords in Hebrew bible dated to 500 BCE, words such as tokai ->tukkiyim, akil->ahalim, kukai->karkom and even aranmanai->armon, these are the earliest attestation of Tamil loan words. Although Shulman mentions them, he cites number of research articles. I think this article needs to mention that. Kanatonian (talk) 20:00, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Shulman characterizes these as loans from "Dravidian, probably early Tamil". So a mention in Dravidian languages would be more consistent with the source. Shulman also mentions that araṇmaṉai->armon is only one among other proposals, and that karkom just as well could originate from Sanskrit kuṅkuma. –Austronesier (talk) 10:42, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Cantonese which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 11:03, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request
In the intro paragraph, please add that it is the second most widely spoken Dravidian language.2603:8081:160A:BE2A:DD51:DA92:D0AB:7E3E (talk) 20:27, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Any sources for that? Thanks. Silikonz  ( 💬 │ 🖋 ) 08:35, 27 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  -ink&amp;fables  «talk»  09:08, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Tamil in Malaysia
In Malaysia, there are 500 and above Tamil language based government schools. Tamil is the one and only Indian Language that have schools in Malaysia. Gery Claret (talk) 14:18, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Please edit the article (Tamil language) by adding these additional information. Gery Claret (talk) 14:19, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Could you provide the source for those claims? Jeppiz (talk) 16:29, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The article already says: "Tamil is used as one of the languages of education in Malaysia, along with English, Malay and Mandarin". The number of schools is not really relevant, and since English, Malay and Mandarin obviously are not Indian languages, the addition of "the one and only" is redundant and over-emphatic. –Austronesier (talk) 16:41, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Are all Tamil dialects mutually intelligible?
Are all Tamil dialects mutually intelligible? It might be helpful to answer this in the article but ONLY IF reliable citations are included. (No edit wars, please. I myself do not speak or read any of the languages of South Asia, except for English, and that in the American style.  I'm just curious.) Acwilson9 (talk) 19:15, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Tamil does not have any dialects, but rather accents, each geography has related accents to that region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1970:5E1A:9700:E801:DC0C:C8D:B0F0 (talk) 14:57, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Tamil does have dialects. Most of them are mutually intelligible but with some misunderstandings.Qwabbleh (talk) 18:48, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Ima malayali and i quite decently understand Tamil (~60%) so 🤷 [ h͡m̥̚ ] AleksiB 1945 (talk) 20:13, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Tamils don't have any different dialects. People in different parts uses different accent which can also be understood by remaining population. Ramansedu0211 (talk) 06:17, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Some colloquial dialects of Jaffna Tamil are not intelligible to Tamil speakers from India (unless they have had repeated exposure to accent and unique words/phrases). There is a dialect continuum. The 'standard' form of Tamil is mutually intelligible. A speaker from Jaffna could modulate his spoken Tamil to make it either more understandable or less understandable, depending on whether he draws more on local colloquialisms or more standard Tamil.Metta79 (talk) 19:58, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 January 2021
Tamil is not called a Dravidian language and it does not follow Hinduism it follows Saivam religion Msam3011 (talk) 21:22, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. –Austronesier (talk) 21:32, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

FA concerns
This featured article currently does not meet the featured article criteria. There is a lot of uncited text here, the degree of which is not compatible with FA expectations. If this issue is not addressed, the article may have to undergo a featured article review. Hog Farm Talk 00:15, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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 * Shri-lanka3.jpg

Edits re: History of Tamil Language
Hi editors please mention palm scripts used for thousands of years to publish Tamil materials, even before the arrival of Portuguese and the still surviving printing industry!

In your text, please include that Tamil is more ancient (cave writings appeared 2500 BC) than Sanskrit (appeared 2000 BC) and that Sanskrit influence over Tamil was only a relevant issue following the encroachment of Tamil/Dravidian land by Aryans who established the caste system and forced indigenous Tamils/Dravidians to the South of their land. The Aryan-established caste system and anti-Dravidian policies were part and parcel with Sanskritization of traditional Dravidian traditions, culture (folk gods being one example), and languages.

I believe you mentioned Sanskritization in the article but don't actually elaborate on what that is -- I think it would be good to provide just one sentence summarizing it, since you seem to hinge quite a bit of the article on how Tamil was influenced by Sanskrit.

Furthermore, it might be advisable to delete the comparisons between Tamil and Sanskrit -- I notice you seem to keep relating Tamil to Sanskrit which seems to overemphasize the importance of Sanskrit to Tamil language -- after all, the wiki is focusing on Tamil language exclusively and not "Tamil vs. Sanskrit".

Hungrycitrus (talk) 02:48, 12 March 2021 (UTC)


 * The website you cited is not a Reliable Source as defined by Wikipedia. Other parts of this article are well-sourced - you'll need RS's that specifically refute them. No credible linguists are of the opinion that Tamil is as old as 2000 B.C.50.111.57.134 (talk) 13:26, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 May 2021
Tamil is not Dravidian language. Dravidian is meaningless. When State are in India seperate with their language at that time Dravidian word is become meaningless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.62.130.74 (talk • contribs)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.  Mel ma nn   10:14, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The idea that Dravidian is "meaningless" is absurd. Please don't request such gunk here. 50.111.57.134 (talk) 13:27, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2021
It is said that the oldest tamil text found was 2000 years old. But the actual value is .4000. So please change it Xxsjsjeb (talk) 13:39, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Please change it as soon as possible Xxsjsjeb (talk) 13:39, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 January 2022
Change

"A recorded Tamil literature has been documented for over 2000 years" to

"A recorded Tamil literature has been documented for over 2600 years, as per the age of oldest available Tamil literature Tolkapppiam. If this ancient book of grammar & poems is written before 2600 years, how many thousand years before this language would have taken birth & been in use." Rama.instrument (talk) 10:53, 5 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Hemantha (talk) 11:33, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Adichanallur and Keezhadi
Adichanallur and Keezhadi are important excivition sites in Tamil history so we should add information about them in the history section from reliable sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8806:407:AA00:BC06:EAE8:3270:A0 (talk) 22:44, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * this page is about the Tamil language, not archaeology. Also the Keezhadi date of 580bc for Tamil Brahmi is inaccurate and not accepted by mainstream scholars. Unfortunately, local politics has led to this inaccurate date being promoted. Metta79 (talk) 23:59, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Adichanallur and Keezhadi are about the Tamil language so we should atleast mention them. Also can you provide more information about how Keezhadi is inacurate?

In 2018, six carbon samples collected from the fourth phase of excavation were sent to Beta Analytic in the United States for Accelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS) dating. It was found that one sample collected at a depth of 353 cm goes back to 580 BCE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shark2433086 (talk • contribs) 02:25, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

The report from Keezhadi was not a proper archaeology report, it did not provide proper stratification data, which was very suspicious. Likewise, it is impossible for Brahmi to predate the 4th century BC as Brahmi is largely descended from Aramaic script with variants that only emerged after the fall of the Achaemenid empire in 330 BC. Read this full paper and you will understand why no serious scholars of the Brahmi script ever accept this nonsense date of 580 BC:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3794150

The 580 BC date is either due to a mistake with mixed up layers or more worrying outright distortion. It is also impossible for Tamil Brahmi to predate Prakrit Brahmi as the letter order was clearly borrowed from Indo-Aryan, which follows the Vedic phonological order. We know this because Tamil Brahmi unique Tamil letters like ழ, ற, ள, ன் are just tagged on at the end, and are not arranged phonologically. Metta79 (talk) 05:52, 25 January 2022 (UTC) == This report from NCBI says that the inscriptions have been carbon sated to the 6th century. BC https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7666134/ Can you give me a report that directly debunks the excavations? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shark2433086 (talk • contribs) 12:08, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

This report from Tamil Nadu does not say anything conclusive about brahmi being from 6th century BC. It's main focus is on carbon nanotubes. The consensus in academia and worldwide has not accepted these erroneous dates for Tamil Brahmi. Metta79 (talk) 12:40, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

The article was talking about pottery containing Tamil Brahmi script Here are a few more articles https://www.tnarch.gov.in/keeladi https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/excavation-india-may-hold-clues-ancient-civilization-180978414/ Shark2433086 (talk) 16:40, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 August 2022
Can I post a link regarding TAMIL (https://brainly.in/question/27522603) Language? Jennifer2107 (talk) 09:48, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  13:14, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2022
I Want to add brainly.in link related to education. Asterz21 (talk) 07:22, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: It is not clear to me how this relates to this article. – Recoil (talk) 10:24, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I want to add link of education website https://brainly.in/. Asterz21 (talk) 07:24, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Duplicate of above request. – Recoil (talk) 10:24, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Geographic distribution
Tamil is the primary language of the majority of the people residing in Tamil Nadu, Puducherry, (in India) and in the Northern and Eastern provinces of Sri Lanka. The language is spoken among small minority groups in other states of India which include Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, Kerala, Maharashtra, Gujarat, Delhi and in certain regions of Sri Lanka such as Colombo and the hill country. Tamil or dialects of it were used widely in the state of Kerala as the major language of administration, literature and common usage until the 12th century AD. Tamil was also used widely in inscriptions found in southern Andhra Pradesh districts of Chittoor and Nellore until the 12th century AD. Tamil was used for inscriptions from the 10th through 14th centuries in southern Karnataka districts such as Kolar, Mysore, Mandya and Bangalore. Kannadigan (talk) 03:48, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

language; Geographical distribution
Gujarat and Delhi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kannadigan (talk • contribs) 14:28, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Ethnonym infobox inclusion
Hello,

It seems a couple of users (@AleksiB 1945 & @Haoreima) have added the ethnonym infobox (see right) to this article, but as this is about the language and not Tamils, it doesn't feel appropriate here. Perhaps I'm wrong, but in the interest of avoiding an edit war perhaps we could discuss its inclusion here? I can't think of any other language articles with similar information included. Warrenmck (talk) 21:10, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * @Warrenmck I added only once, thinking it might be helpful to readers. Maybe it's reverted or removed by someone else, maybe because my edit was not acceptable to him or her or them. So, to avoid edit conflict, I have already abstained myself from re-adding it to the article. So, there will be no question of edit warring from my side! Thanks! Haoreima (talk) 21:18, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Haoreima I should have been clearer there, I was referring to myself! I've removed it twice when two separate editors added it, no need to abstain from editing by any means. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some very good reason to have it in the article, and my belief that it maybe shouldn't be included isn't necessarily the correct one. Warrenmck (talk) 21:20, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I see two issues with the content of that infobox: 1. There is no overlap between the distribution of the ethnolinguistic group (the first three items) and the applicability of Tamiḻ Nāṭu. Using the latter term to include also the Tamil settlement area in Sri Lanka could be perceived as quite contentious. 2. I'm not sure if the infobox is meant for endonyms. In common English parlance, entries one to three would by simply Tamil(s). IMHO, this template is relevant in the first place where terms used in English are not self-explanatory. That's just me though.
 * To sum up: items one to three are fine if consensus emerges that we can use endonyms in the template, but item four (which is optional per the doc of the template) is very problematic in any case. –Austronesier (talk) 18:04, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Its used in Southern African languages' pages like Tswana, Tsonga and many others AleksiB 1945 (talk) 11:57, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Whether the template is used in a meaningful way in those other pages is something to be dicussed there. Dozens of them use the parameter country with entries that are not countries but areas better called 'heartland', 'homeland', 'spech area' etc. Again, what service do we proivde to our readers to present two or three endonyms (including inflection for number) at the very start of the article, with yet another box that interrupts the flow of reading between the introductory paragraph and the following text in mobile view? The infobox is placed in that position deliberately (which is why MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE is very explicit about not overloading it with detail), but all other boxes should be placed there with care and concern for our readers. In many pages, it can quite a pain to scroll through all these template boxes. –Austronesier (talk) 11:32, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Spelling of Thamizh
@ RegentsPark It does seem difficult finding a source for this spelling but it is definitely used by the natives. You can see other articles like Thamizh that are based on this spelling. Would this news article be a good source? https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/chennai/tamil-nadu-government-spelling-change-6453894/ Jaiganesh.kumaran (talk) 16:03, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not really sure since the article doesn't actually confirm that this is a spelling rather than an alternative name. However, if you re-insert it, I won't revert you.RegentsPark (comment) 16:24, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
 * "Thamizh" is very much an informal spelling that has no validity among scholars, because this spelling is an incorrect transliteration, along with "Tamizh" and "Thamil". There's no reason to have this rendering on the English encyclopedia. Chronikhiles (talk) 15:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Well 'Thamizh' makes more sense because 'Th' in this word is more similar to the pronunciation in words like 'Think' than 'Tin'. 'Zh' is kind of a bad convention, but since is used by the natives, I think it makes sense to include for completeness.
 * In Tamil script, itself, as used in the spellings of majority of English words:
 * T ~ ட்;
 * Th ~ த்.
 * In the systematic ISO-approved transcription, we do though use T for the 'th' sound and 'T with bottom dot' for an hard 'T' as used in English words, and that along with IPA shall be the official exact transcription. Main reason I want Thamizh here is so search engines will show it and I can use this spelling in my work. 'Tamil' is no more a correct transliteration than 'Thamizh'; it just came by convention and became the English spelling.
 * If majority of Tamils accept Thamizh as a correct spelling and becomes more widely used, you are obliged to add it here. Or if that does not suffice, then we really need a government order (well if Government of Tamil Nādu itself says to use it then you have to mention it. Unfortunately they are not too much worried, which also reflects in why place names are terribly spelt; Erode should really be spelt 'Eeroadu' so English people get it. Jaiganesh.kumaran (talk) 17:05, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You say it yourself: if Thamzih becomes more widely used. Then and only then we may consider to give it a mention with due weight in the a prominent part of the article such as the introductory sentence. A "government order" won't change anything unless it has an actual impact on common usage among English speakers worldwide.
 * Main reason I want Thamizh here is so search engines will show it. Uhm, this is not the purpose of Wikipedia, in fact it's diametrically the opposite. Wikipedia reflects things as they are, not as people with particular interests want to promote them to appear (see WP:SOAPBOX).
 * Finally, note that the overwhelming majority of L1-speakers (+ competent L2-speakers) pronounces "th" as . Outside from South Asia, the "th" in "Thamizh" is simply counterintuitive. –Austronesier (talk) 22:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay due to your insistence I'm not going to revert back. I guess I can mention these spellings as informal alternatives in the Wiktionary page of the word. Jaiganesh.kumaran (talk) 05:03, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * > pronounces "th" as [θ]
 * Also accurate (I did hear how it sounds like) but I still think it is a better approximation even then. The Help: IPA/Tamil page seems to kind of not great English approximated words as examples. Jaiganesh.kumaran (talk) 05:07, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Main reason I want Thamizh here is so search engines will show it and I can use this spelling in my work." You want to edit an encylopedia for your personal reasons? I'm sure that's against the guidelines. I also don't think the government of Tamil Nadu has any authority to enforce this on Wikipedia. Chronikhiles (talk) 10:21, 12 December 2023 (UTC)