Talk:Tenali Rama

Reference
Both cartoon network india and Amarchitra katha idetify tenali ramakrisna as tenali Raman. so please dont remove / edit the related portion.


 * The | reference provided doesn't give any details of his real name being Tenali Ramakrishna and inaccuracy of refering him as Tenali Raman. In the given scenario I am deleting the reference. Thanks! Wiki San Roze talk 20:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Article misses the real point
It is quite likely that the actual name was Rama, but given that the Vijayanagar empire held sway over most of South India, Tenali Raman is part of folklore in all the South Indian languages. The Raman usage probably comes from Tamil-speaking popularizers who wrote up their grandmothers' tales in English and gained the 'first mover' advantage.

But that is beside the central point. The Tenali Raman of folktale is famous for outmanoeuvering his detractors at Krishnadevaraya's court. Raman's biggest enemy at court was the archetypal hunchback Kullan or Kulla, which translates to "Shorty" in Tamil/Kannada. Kullan is forever scheming against Raman, who, of course, invariably outwits everyone at the last minute.

In the most famous of Tenali Raman stories, Kullan convinces the king that Raman is a traitor & the poor wit is sentenced to death by trampling beneath the royal elephant's foot. Raman is buried upto his neck in sand preparatory to the execution scheduled for the following morning. Late in the evening Kullan comes up to Raman and gloats. Raman thinks fast, and knowing that Kullan suffers from chronic back pain, assures his rival that his own back pain has been cured by being buried in the 'miracle sand'. Raman even notes that he can die in peace now, having finally obtained relief from pain. Kullan falls for this ruse and ends up exchaging places with Raman, who promptly takes to his heels and establishes his innocence before the king. The enraged Krishnadevaraya orders that Kullan be executed instead, but Raman intervenes on his behalf - a chivalrous attitude that he displays toward most of his detractors.

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 20:03, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Tenali Ramakrishna's Tamil ness in question
How can it be claimed that Tenali is of Tamil tradition ? He was born in Andhra went to karnataka and all his works were only in Telugu or Sanskrit not even Kannada but he was in the Vijayanagara empire which was both Karnataka and Andhra Empire, this empire has nothing to do with Tamil tradition nor Tenali has anything to do with Tamil tradition. RTPking (talk) 11:01, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Bias
Copied from Usertalk:Joshua Jonathan:

I feel you edits have been biased. Why do you say the names are in Tamil before the begining of sentence where all names follow, while you added only two new names? It gives meaning as if all names are Tamil, I have removed that term Tamil as there are other names also. You manage to find sources which say Tenali was part of tamil traditions aswell as Telugu, You find sources claiming there is no record of his historicity, but you cannot find sources that his name includes Vikatakavi, there are several books printed with the name Vikatakavi Tenali ramakrishna, also You cannot find sources which say he was a Telugu Niyogi Brahmin.

The Note 1 in the article is written in a biased tone, though the specific words were used in the book the rest of the words have been omitted, so the meaning the Note 1 conveys is wrong, as it is not entire.

RTPking (talk) 11:16, 29 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Reply by JJ:
 * I wrote "Tamil-names" because the sources mentioned it so.
 * THanks for supplying sources for the other names.
 * Regarding note 1: you removed a direct quote, and replaced it by a quote which is not in the source, nor can be paraphrased that way. Khanna is very clear: his historicity "is entirely in doubt", "nor is there any reason to believe that Tenali Rama has anything to do with the well-known poet Tenali Ramaksrnudu", "nor can we dat the stories themselves", etc. So to write "According to this author [...] there are overwhelming sources saying both are the same" is a blunt misrepresentation of Khanna, or a very clumsy attempt to give your own opinion, without providing sources.
 * Greetings,  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   18:02, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Response from RTPKing:
 * You had very conveniently avoided providing sources for Telugu names though those names were the most popular, obvious and most available, as there are even books with those titles, but you had done lots of searching to find Tamil names, and you have added tags requesting citations for the Telugu names, which were not present until then, so I had to call your edits biased, similarly, I insist that the note should not be partial omitting as per convenience which gives a wrong meaning. What I wrote gives the correct meaning. Probably mentioning about overwhelming sources was my opinion, but the rest of the note was what the author exactly mentioned in the source. Hence I rewrite it without including my opinion.RTPking (talk) 07:59, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

'''Copy & Paste From The book:Khanna, Meenakshi (2007), Cultural History Of Medieval India, Berghahn Books Page - 4''' Tenali Rama's historicity is entirely in doubt: there is no evidence aside from the folk stories that Krsnadevaraya ever had a real jester; nor is there any reason to believe that tenali rama had anything to do with the well known Tenali Ramakrsnudu, the author of Telugu kavyas such as the Ghatikachalamahatmya and Pandurangamahatmya and a contemporary of this king.

User: Joshua Jonathan's version Khanna:"Tenali Rama's historicity is entirely in doubt"

My version "According to this author: It is not known whether the well known Telugu poet Tenali Ramakrsnudu the author of Telugu Kavyas Ghatikachalam and Padurangamahatyam and Tenali Ramakrishna the court-jester of Vijayanagara if existed are the same person".

RTPking (talk) 08:34, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

It is very conveniently written avoiding the rest of the information, I claim this edit to be biased. If your words were true, who's works are Ghatikachalamahatmya and Pandurangamahatmya ? They ofcourse are the works of the well known Tenali Ramakrsnudu, and his historicity is not doubtful. I also wish to mention here that there are an overwhelming number of sources mentioning that Tenali Rama who is the Vijanagara court jester is the author of Ghatikacalamahtyam and pandurangamahatyam. All the rest of the sources mentioned in this article say so, for example :
 * I contest against your version which states: "Tenali Rama's historicity is entirely in doubt"

RTPking (talk) 08:50, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Arathoon, Anita (2008), Our Story So Far. History & Civics for ISCE Schools, Dorling Kindersley
 * Heyman, Micheael; Satpathy, Sumanyu; Ravishankar, Anushka, The Tenth Rasa: An Anthology of Indian Nonsense, Penguin Books India
 * Seal, Graham (2001), Encyclopedia of Folk Heroes, ABC-CLIO


 * If you think so, then add a synopsis of those sources and the sources themselves to the note. But please quote correctly. You can start with quoting here at the Talk Page what exactly those sources say.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   17:10, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Just checking: Arathoon doesn't mention the Ghatikacalamahtyam and pandurangamahatyam. Neither do Heyman nor Seal.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   17:55, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Tamil tradition
With these edits  User:RTPking changed "Tamil and Telugu tradition" to "Telugu tradition". The rationale he gives is: "Sources are contradictory, all sources i presented, mention he is only a folk hero belonging to Telugu tradition, there is no work he ever did that is in Tamil all his works are in Telugu, Khanna mention it to be wrong."

Yet Khanna, Cultural History Of Medieval India, page 4 writes: "There is only one such jester in the Tamil and Telugu traditions, the folk hero Tenali Raman."

The fact that your sources don't mention Tamil, does not mean you can interpret various sources; that's WP:OR and pushing POV.

As for the mention of "writer":
 * Rādhākr̥ṣṇaśarma, Landmarks in Telugu Literature, is not accessible at Google Books
 * Arathoon, Our Story So Far 4. History & Civics for ISCE Schools, p.75, says "court-poet"
 * Sisir Kumar Das, A History of Indian Literature: 1800-1910, p.521, says "poet"
 * Mohamed Taher, Libraries in India's National Developmental Perspective, p.57, says indeed "writer
 * Beck et al, Folktales of India, p.236, only says "one famous figure"
 * Jackson, Vijayanagara Voices: Exploring South Indian History and Hindu Literature, says "poet" (p.139), "philosopher-buffoon" (p.82), "poet-philosopher" (p.140)

The issue of court-poet c.q. writer is mentioned in the following sentence, including a relativising note in his historicity. To insert "writer" is a doublure of information, bypassing this note, and distorting the structure of the article.

Greetings,  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   05:27, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I have presented multiple sources which talk of his works all of them absolutely in either Telugu or Sanskrit, and no tamil whatsoever also mentioning him to be a folk hero, writer and poet according to Telugu Traditions and not Tamil, As per my knowledge, he is only popular in Tamil land because of the Telugu film Tenali Rama which was remade in Tamil with a change in few actors, while having mostly Telugu actors, including the director and producer being Telugu. There was no mention of him being a folk hero in Tamil traditions in this article before you added this information, so I suggest this information be deleted and be resolved on the talk page before adding the information. But it is definitely agreed by everyone including yourself, that he is a folk hero, writer and poet in Telugu Tradition.

I suggest since we have contradicting sources we first resolve this matter here on Talk page before adding it to the article. Hence removing information in relation to Tamil traditions.

Before calling my edits POV pushing, I suggest you check your edits, they are most definitely biased and POV pushing. It was previously discussed how your edits were biased right here on this page also. RTPking (talk) 10:05, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I do not Understand why you fail to mention that all the below sources mention the term Telugu, either saying Telugu poet, Telugu writer or Telugu folk hero, I take the pain to copy paste information from each of the books, just because your edits like before have been in a biased manner, conveniently avoiding the Telugu information.

says "Ramakrsna Tenali, Telugu poet, author of Panduranga Mahatmya. He is one of the eight elephants (Diggaja) of Telugu poetry." says"Tenali Ramakrishna a poet who lived between 1485 and 1575 composed works on religion in Telugu"
 * Rādhākr̥ṣṇaśarma, Landmarks in Telugu Literature, I will let go of this source since you cannot access it, but it is accessible in the United states, not sure if it is accessible from other regions, may be due to some publishing rights.
 * Arathoon, Our Story So Far 4. History & Civics for ISCE Schools, p.75, says "Tenali Ramakrishna, popularly known as Tenali Raman, was a Telugu court poet and court-jester in the court of Krishna Devaraya who ruled over the empire of Vijayanagar Empire."
 * Sisir Kumar Das, A History of Indian Literature: 1800-1910, p.521, says "Tenali Ramakrishna Kathalu by Shriramamurti Gurajada, collection of numerous tales of Tenali Ramakrishna, a telugu poet of the sixteenth century,"
 * Mohamed Taher, Libraries in India's National Developmental Perspective, p.57, says "Telugu writers like Tenali Ramakrishna and Allasani Peddanna"
 * Beck et al, Folktales of India, p.236, says "There are a series of Folk Tales in Telugu satarizing courtly life. These all revolve around the personage of one famous figure Tenali Ramalingadu(also called Tenali Ramakrishna)."
 * Jackson, Vijayanagara Voices: Exploring South Indian History and Hindu Literature, Page.139 says "Many Folk tales in Andhra Pradesh purport to relate episodes from the life of Krishnadevaraya, describing his courts and the doing of his queens and companions. A famous folklore figure in south india ever since vijayanagara's times is krishnadevaraya's jester, the irrepressible philosopher-poet Tenali Ramakrishna or Tenali Ramalinga. The historical figure Tenali rama was an actual poet who wrote a text entitled panduranga mahatmya, considered one of the five greatest poetic masterpieces in Telugu"
 * Louis-Frédéric, Encyclopaedia of Asian civilizations, Volumes 6-7: Pg.432
 * Roshen Dalal, Hinduism: An Alphabetical Guide:Pg412

RTPking (talk) 11:56, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Reply by JJ So I strongly advise you to follow Wikipedia policies, and not to remove sourced info. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   16:16, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Your comment "There was no mention of him being a folk hero in Tamil traditions in this article before you added this information" is not a reason to remove sourced info; on the contrary. Your suggestion that "this information be deleted and be resolved on the talk page before adding the information." is not in line with Wikipedia-policy. It is sourced info; the repeated removal of Khanna as a source for Tamil is WP:DISRUPTIVE.
 * In contrast with your edits, I did not remove the term "Telugu" from the article.
 * The fact that your sources don't mention Tamil, does not mean that Tenali is not part of the Tamil tradition also. That's your personal conclusion, which is WP:OR and pushing POV.
 * Khanna mentions "Tamil tradition"; other sources also mention Tamil:
 * Graham Seal, Encyclopedia of Folk Heroes - Pagina 214: "Ramalingadu,Tenali Also known as Tenali Ramakrishna and,in Tamil lore, as the court jester Tenali Rama, this legendary trickster hero is famous in the traditions of India's Andhra province."
 * Michael Heyman, Sumanyu Satpathy, Anushka Ravishankar, The Tenth Rasa: An Anthology of Indian Nonsense - Pagina 218: "Many stories in Kannada, Tamil and Telugu are told of this man, variously known as Tenali Rama, Tenali Ramakrishna, Ramalingam and Tenali Raman."
 * I repeat: the issue of court-poet c.q. writer is mentioned in the following sentence, including a relativising note in his historicity. To insert "writer" is a doublure of information, bypassing this note, and distorting the structure of the article.

Garlapati Ramakrishnacharyulu
Odd enough, there are no sources for "Garlapati Ramakrishnacharyulu". Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   04:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Garlapati Tenali Ramakrishna
With "one source" I mean really one source available, not just one source given here. So that's not really the commonname of him. Ha, and looking at the diff, I notice that a few names where also removed from the lead, without explanation. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   05:33, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Tenali Rama or Tenali Raman
Namaskaram all, As i noticed ,Tenali Ramakrishna title which is not opt  for this article. Discussion open.Please participate. thank you. -- unsigned


 * Why not?  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   20:07, 29 May


 * the name tenali raman or tenali rama which is well known globally.not what mentioned now.is it so?.Namaskaram.Thank you. Eshwar .om Talk tome


 * Its Tenali Ramakrisha. No one in Andhra or people from Andhra origin names themselves Raman. I am not sure every one wants to screw Telugu articles.24.6.43.55 (talk) 11:28, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
 * hi Mr/Ms 24.6.43.55, Here we are Talking about the person of  this article .He was born before 1947.Am i correct? Eshwar .om Talk tome 03:29, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Tenali Ramakrisha is what Telugu people name usually. Also most of the sources uses Tenali Ramakrishna and it should be used as common name. Tenali Raman is probably known in Tamilnadu. Nowhere else he is called Tenali Raman. Hindi people call him Tenali Ram. Since most of the sources use "Tenali Rama Krishna". it should be used as common nameNagarjuna198 (talk) 07:04, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
 * user Nagarjuna198 ,Here we are not taking which region he belongs to.if you want we discuss further.No issues on that.But before you should read the  talk page fully.Let me coming  to  the point.here we are discussing  the  title?you said most of  the sources in  Tenali Rama Krishna. plz provide   sources.Namaskaram. Eshwar .om Talk tome 14:44, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, all of his literary works carry the name "Ramakrishna." The popular stories about him in Andhra generally use his birth name "Ramalinga". The recent cartoon books in English/Hindu have shortened the name to "Rama". The TV series has called him "Raman." We have the proverbial elephant's legs here. Since his official name is "Ramakrishna," that is what should be in the article's title. Kautilya3 (talk) 09:05, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Literature in English?
Are any of the literary works by Tenali Ramakrishna available in English?--DThomsen8 (talk) 04:00, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

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Requested move 18 April 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) --  Dane talk  02:03, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Tenali Ramakrishna → Tenali Rama – WP:COMMONNAME, most sources listed in the article refer to "Tenali Rama". Marcocapelle (talk) 07:44, 18 April 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 12 February 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved  (t &#183; c)  buidhe  11:43, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Tenali Ramakrishna → Tenali Rama – Per WP:COMMONNAME. Tenali Rama renders 6,39,000 results whereas Tenali Ramakrishna renders 5,34,000. Kailash29792 (talk)  06:42, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

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 * Tenaliramakrishna image001.jpg