Talk:Tenants and Owners Development Corporation

This is a biased article - and not worth keeping.
For instance "The organization has used these resources to lobby against housing construction" is not supported by the citation he gives. Also: "Elberling lives rent-free in one of TODCO's affordable housing units" should mention that he's doing it as a building manager. (Which is in the citation listed). Personally, I'd suggest just getting rid of this article. Dancingsnails (talk) 18:12, 10 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Disagree. This organization is a major player in the politics in one of the world's most important urban economies.
 * We should fix, and do so by finding well-sourced coverage from a variety of sources. Ctbeiser (talk) 05:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Add early history content
Hello, My name is Andres, I work for TODCO and would like to help editors on Wikipedia in making this article more robust. For the near future, I will be making requests on this Talk page with suggestions for content to be added. Feel free to tag me here if you want to chat. For my first suggestion, I propose adding some early history of TODCO to the very top of the History section. Please consider the following:
 * TODCO was founded in 1971 as a coalition of South of Market tenants and building owners. It was formed in response to redevelopment of the Yerba Buena corridor.


 * John Elberling took over TODCO in 1978, when it had started construction on the first of its senior housing buildings. Elberling lives rent-free in one of TODCO's affordable housing units.


 * After joining TODCO, Elberling worked on the 1980s Prop. M campaign that limited office development.

I'm here on the Talk page to chat! TODCOAM (talk) 20:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Encoded   Talk 💬 07:09, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

More history content
Hello, This is TODCO employee Andres again. Thanks to Encoded for the updates above. Here are a few more possible updates to History section for editors to consider:
 * After the sentence, "In the 1980s and 1990s, TODCO built a set of low-income apartment buildings, concentrated on Sixth Street", consider adding, "Following this, TODCO redeveloped single-room-occupancy hotels on the street. In 1998, it completed a 24 unit development called The Leland Apartments for people with disabilities. "
 * In the sentence that reads, "Since the early 2000s, the organization has not built more housing, but remains active in local politics", consider changing "local politics" to "advocacy". I think this is a better description of what TODCO does and is also supported by this San Francisco Chronicle source already in the article.
 * In the sentence, "The organization has used these resources to lobby against housing construction, as well as fund various other propositions", consider adding the phrase "market-rate" so that it reads: "The organization has used these resources to lobby against market-rate housing construction, as well as fund various other propositions." This is also supported by the above source and adds more specificity to the sentence.
 * After the sentence that reads, "The organization has been criticized for using the windfalls of its operation on political advocacy rather than on its properties and resident services", consider adding, "According to author Chester Hartman, TODCO offers social services for its residents including a community clinic, case management and shopping transportation. " for additional information of TODCO's functions.

I'm here on the Talk page to chat! TODCOAM (talk) 22:13, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Encoded   Talk 💬 21:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Encoded! TODCOAM (talk) 22:15, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Business Practice and Complaints section
Hello editors, I would like to discuss a recent addition to this article, which is the new Business Practice and Complaints section. It is a three-paragraph section that I think editors will find to be redundant, as some of the content is already discussed within the article; not written in encyclopedic tone; and potentially gives too much weight to one specific source. I would like to suggest that it be removed, rewritten, and re-incorporated into the current History section. Please see this list for a more detailed proposal: 1: The first paragraph of "Business Practice and Complaints" should be added to the History section. 2: The second paragraph should be rewritten to be more neutral with due weight, and reincorporated into the History section. Much of the information in this paragraph is synthesized and draws conclusions. Please see this proposal:
 * The San Francisco Standard published an article where tenants living in buildings operated by TODCO complained of conditions in the units. The Standard article wrote that TODCO used funds for political causes. The article reported that annual revenue for the organization's main nonprofit entity had doubled over the last decade while the amount of revenue spent on residents was reduced. The organization cited inflation for the reduction in maintenance funding, citing wages as an example. TODCO tripled the amount spent on employee salaries, which TODCO attributed to adding administrative and program staffing because it was "understaffed".

3: The third paragraph is redundant, as the Wikipedia article already discusses this criticism of TODCO in the fifth paragraph of the History section. The History section covers the same points as this new paragraph does. Because of that, I believe this paragraph could be removed in its entirety.

Thank you to editors for their review. Perhaps Encoded this new request may interest you? TODCOAM (talk) 20:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)


 * (Comment) @TODCOAM, Could you give me a version of proposal 2 with the citations? ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 04:22, 29 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi AlphaBetaGamma!


 * Of course, here you go:


 * The San Francisco Standard published an article where tenants living in buildings operated by TODCO complained of conditions in the units. The Standard article wrote that TODCO used funds for political causes. The article reported that annual revenue for the organization's main nonprofit entity had doubled over the last decade while the amount of revenue spent on residents was reduced. The organization cited inflation for the reduction in maintenance funding, citing wages as an example. TODCO tripled the amount spent on employee salaries, which TODCO attributed to adding administrative and program staffing because it was "understaffed". 


 * Please let me know if I can assist in any other ways. Eagerly awaiting your review TODCOAM (talk) 22:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Proposal 2 implemented, 1st paragraph removed due to lack of references. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 23:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks AlphaBetaGamma! What are your thoughts on the third bullet point? I believe this is redundant and falls under the redundancy rules: "Also, redundancy within an article should be kept to a minimum (except in the lead, which is meant to be a summary of the entire article, and so is intentionally duplicative)."


 * Specifically, the idea presented in the second sentence of this paragraph that TODCO is trying to "suppress new housing development" is better covered in Controversies with the information on TODCO's opposition of the construction of as apartment complex on a Nordstrom valet parking lot. The information on Dean Preston mentioned in the last sentence of this paragraph is covered already in Controversies.


 * Additionally, the first sentence is not actually supported by the source that is referenced, as that source does not mention anything about or related to "campaign funding and endorsement".


 * Finally, a section titled "Business practice and complaints" in an article that also contains a "Controversies" section does not seem very neutral.


 * Eagerly awaiting your thoughts. TODCOAM (talk) 21:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Give me a bit of time please, I recently answered over 80 edit requests in 3 days (I was even awarded!) and I'm burned out. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 23:13, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I just took a look and yes that seems like a NPOV issue. Section removed. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 11:28, 1 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks AlphaBetaGamma TODCOAM (talk) 18:15, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Functions of TODCO
Hi Wikipedia, it's Andres from TODCO. I would like to make suggestions for the very end of the History section. The following content adds some information on the functions of TODCO and its financial information. Please consider the following:
 * TODCO maintains an advocacy subsidiary. It donates to progressive campaigns related to community development and affordable housing-related initiatives. Since 2016, one focus has been to limit office space and market rate housing in favor of housing for lower and middle class.


 * In the 2018 fiscal year, it generated nearly $5 million in revenue. As of 2019, TODCO oversaw eight affordable housing buildings comprising about 1,000 units. In 2021, this included three residential hotels on Sixth Street and five senior buildings near Yerba Buena Gardens. The John Stewart Company has a management contract to manage TODCO properties.

I'm here on the Talk page to chat! TODCOAM (talk) 18:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)


 * History sections usually aren't "add everything" areas. Informations like that might be better off in different subsections. I also feel that "In the 2018 fiscal year..." statement isn't really notable unless it was special. (ex. highest, lowest, etc...) It's also worth noting that listing too much on what something does can be seen as promotion by some editors. Although the first paragraph seems to be fine (Assuming good faith for sources since the sources aren't deprecated or are blogs), You don't need to rapid fire citations, and you only need 1 citation at the end of the supported claims. So you just need the SFC citation at the end of each paragraphs. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 07:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Thank you AlphaBetaGamma for the in-depth review. I'd like to work with you to make this request the best it can be for Wikipedia.


 * I see what you mean about History not being a catch all section. The problem currently is that there are only two sections: History and Controversies. Putting this information in a different section, per your suggestion, would require making a new section entirely. May I suggest an "Operations" section?


 * Regarding the "In the 2018 fiscal year..." statement: I see what you mean here, I will remove it in my next request.


 * I am glad to hear you think the first paragraph is good. Regarding the source, it is the San Francisco Chronicle, so it does meet Wikipedia standards. I can add an archive link if you would like to make sure it is always accessible. I can remove the rapid fire citations as well.


 * Looking forward to your feedback. I can submit a cleaned-up COI request based on your thoughts. TODCOAM (talk) 22:28, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Try looking at pages of corporates (without any "maintenance tags") on Wikipedia. Maybe you'll find an idea for a new section there? ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 23:15, 8 July 2024 (UTC)