Talk:The 4400/Archive 1

Copyvio
I removed the Season 1 Episode summaries as they were lifted directly from the official site. . --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 02:25, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Episode Summaries
Should we even have the episode summaries? It makes the article 10 screens long (for me, at least), and it seems like a job better left for fansites. I think I'll condense it down to an episode list and see how that works. Elysion 00:44, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Questions of Source
As I have watching [The 4400] I couldn't help but feel like I have seen this before. Read this before. Heard this before. And slow, but surely, it came to me.

While some of the elements are new, most of the story elements can be found in Comic Book Source material. Indeed, you don't have to look to far to find it all!

[Rising Stars] In JMS's outstanding work, a Glowing ball comes from the sky and enhances a specific number of people with superhuman powers. Ultimately, it is discovered that the 113 Supers were 'programmed' with these powers to become an army to fight for a better tomorrow.
 * A similar story can be found in The Bible.

[Critical Maas] One of the Supers from Rising Stars, Stephanie 'Critical' Maas, who was mentally ill, had the ability to compel others to her will.
 * Sauron did this in Lord of the Rings.

[Jack Hawksmoor] One of the Authority, Jack Hawksmoor suffered from Multiple Abductions, each one accompanied by a surgrey to enhance him. Ultimately, it was discovered that not Aliens but people from the future were enhancing him in order to protect humanity from a threat in the future.
 * Greg Bear covered this in the Eon series.
 * Uh, no future people ever abducted anyone in the Eon series. Nor was there ever a belief that the future people were aliens - I mean, it was revealed very early in the first book that they were future people, with a 2021 printing of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn found in the Thistledown? And there were never any forced surgeries on the present-people by the future-people.

[Jenny Quantum] Another of the Authority (Characters), Jenny Quantum was born on the 1st of January 2000 after her predecessor, Jenny Sparks, sacrificed herself. Quantum will have a huge impact on her century, much like the impact Isobel will have in [The 4400].
 * Also in The Bible.


 * You keep saying that. It is a big book full of myths and legends.  Give specific references.

While it can be said that it could be unrelated, inspiration rarely happens in a vacuum.
 * The creators of this show are adults. Adults do not usually read comic books.
 * Comic books are no longer as tame as they used to be; some of them are definitely for adult audiences.
 * That's to say nothing of the fact that adults are actually the primary target market these days.


 * That's like saying video games aren't played by adults. Anyone who grew up with comics could easily have retained an interest even if the medium hadn't grown up along with its fans.  Furthermore even if someone no longer read comics, had perhaps last read them in childhood, those stories and images would remain an influence.


 * Oh, yes, definitely... I wouldn't expect the entire idea or even most of it to be entirely original. It's not always the original ideas that are appealing - it's the way in which they manifest. I like this show much more than I would like any of those other works. That's because of its production, writing, and medium. --Fashnek 22:52, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * It's stupid to think that the creators of this show drew from those specific comic books to come up with this idea. First of all, the very first thing any novice writer learns is that no matter how original or novel an idea may seem, it's inevitable that it's been done before; the key to making it interesting lies in the characterization rather than the McGuffins.  Secondly, the comic book industry is so prolific -- like the soap opera world -- that you could reasonably assemble a case for plagiarism for *any* fictional TV show just by picking and choosing from disparate sources.  When your job is cranking out 10 junk-serials a week, that are pure fantasy with no hard-scientific parameters and no logic necessary you will surely burn through a bunch of standalone concepts.  So what?  That's a consequence of quantity of ideas, not quality.  Finally, you're a fool to imagine that the specific ideas you listed were originally put to paper inside comic books; you ought to try out actual literature -- sans pictures --; you might be surprised.  Heck, almost all of it is rehashed pulp sci-fi.  And you can find science fiction authors like Vernor Vinge, Greg Bear and Poul Anderson writing all about those ideas, skillfully and without need of pretty pictures, throughout the 80s.

most of the stuff i saw, i saw also on a show called "Odyssey 5", created by manny coto. some of the plot changed, switching the aliens with humans from future, or expanding the timeline, besides expanding the whole thing.


 * No-one is going to pay attention if you belittle a genuine artform. Denigrating remarks about pictures just indicates you have missed what it has to offer.


 * Everybody borrows ideas and there is nothing wrong with that. Corporate greed would love to put a stop to it though.

Scientology
Am I the only one who's noticed that the 4400 Center and its doctrines seem kind of similar to Scientology? They seek celebrities to advance their cause, their doctrine is based on a book which seems a mix of pop psychology and science fiction (although, in this case, it seems to be correct), they say that anyone can awaken the 4400 powers within themselves, and they have a "leveling" system similar to Scientology's OT levels. There's more, and I could be more specific, but I haven't seen the show since August, so my memory fails me. Teflon Don 19:51, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Did you happen to read the article?  Wasted Time R 21:21, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * My apologies; I saw the part about Christian allegory, missed the part about Scientology. Never mind.  Teflon Don 06:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Is this accurate?
"The baby Isabelle, believed by some to be the future savior of mankind, has no qualms about violently killing people who get in her way." Seems to be a bit misleading to me, a case could be made that those that were killed, were killed in self defence, while Richard and Lilly have no known abilities. Isabelle has the telepathic power.
 * Not entirely accurate. In the closing montage of the season two finale, Richard is shown using a power that can be assumed to be telekinesis.
 * That episode only appeared, what?, 2 weeks ago? The page was written some time back and probably hasn't been kept as up to date as it could be.  Update it! --emb021

I jigged the tables around a little bit and linked the episode titles to the official website. For the time being I've used the 'Logline' from the official site as the episode recap, though I plan to re-write these myself before too long so as to avoid copyright infringement shenanigans, please feel free to edit the recaps yourself though, not sure how long it'll be until I can be bothered to do them! Ghandir 00:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

4400 Userbox
Just wanna let some people around here know that I made a 4400 userbox. Enjoy. User:UBX/The 4400 -- Buchanan-Hermit™ .. CONTRIBS .. SPEAK! 08:17, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

US Rating to be added
...so? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrBird (talk • contribs) 22:24, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The Visitor
This entire series is a rip off of a 1997 Fox show The Visitor. 172.185.148.34 20:19, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

A very, very long stretch. They share some ideas, but the stories have essentially no similarity. For one thing The Visitor was largely a standard 'character wanders from place to place and has an adventure each episode' series

Corrections
I corrected the part where it talked about the the third season, from future to present and past tenses. Damir H. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Damir H. (talk • contribs) 21:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

List format
I feel like there should be some sort of organization for the list of "Returnees." Something like alphabetical order or a sorting by abduction date. Right now, I'm not sure how it's sorted; there's no indication. I questioningly suspect order of appearance. --Fashnek 20:19, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Maybe we could make a seperate page with a list of all returnees and keep the regulars on the main page. I'm too lazy to do it myself, but for anyone that wants to try, take a look at these flash doohickies from the official site: and . The first one stores 134 names and abduction dates in an image (I extracted it, if someone in interested I might get off my lazy behind and figure out how to get it on wikipedia), it's bad quality though, you'd have to retype it, most names haven't appeared on the series (yet, I presume). The second one has very detailed info about 25 of the returnees, I think these are all the ones that have actually been on the series. It includes stuff like age, haircolour, a picure and abilities. I don't know if it's legal, ethical or wikipedianly (though to be honest I personally don't see any harm done, the information is freely availible just like the series itself, which seems to be a citable source), but it's an easy copy 'n' paste from the consulted xml file. The modular nature suggests that this file will be updated as more returnees appear on the series. --84.28.33.167 16:24, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Excellent find. At this point I would say it's best if only names and information directly from the series are considered for the article, so I would say just the names and information from actual episodes. As for the separate page, I have a feeling it would get VfD'd just for lack of utility. Then again, I have seen long-lived articles of much less value. I don't know, but I suppose it should be kept open as an option. --Fashnek 20:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

style="color:Green">n ]]''talk 02:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the returnees would be better presented as a table: name, actor, disappearance date, abilities, status (dec., etc)... I'm willing to do the table, but I'd like to hear some agreement that this format would be prefered. Last column would be a catch-all "remarks". Ideas, please? ''[[User:D'n| Ð ’ <span

creating a subpage for all characters.
The number of characters is filling this article pretty quickly. I think we need to create subpages for all of them. That way, we can expand on the infomation of those characters without bogging down this main article with the infomation. dposse 17:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

How to make links consistent?
Compare the capitalization, italicization, and punctuation of the titles of List of 'The 4400' Minor Characters and List of The 4400 episodes. How we make these consistent? -- Travisl 16:08, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think it really matters. It's fine the way it is. dposse 01:57, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The episode list name is consistent with other episode lists. The minor characters list should really follow normal capitalization rules.  I wouldn't go in this sentence and say the Minor Character list.  But the thing that really, REALLY irks me is that there are quotes in it.  It's not 'The 4400' or "The 4400";  it's The 4400.  I'm really wanting to move it to List of The 4400 minor characters.  – Pedantic79(talk) 06:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Boldly done. -- Travisl 08:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Same is true of 'The 4400' Broadcasters. It should probably be List of The 4400 broadcasters.  – Pedantic79(talk) 18:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

CBS and USA
Why is CBS producing a show which airs on USA, a division of rival NBC? 172.133.149.41 02:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's probably because of the split between Viacom and CBS. The production company went with CBS.  So why did Viacom produce it?  Because that's what they do.  They have made shows for all the major networks.  – Pedantic79(talk) 03:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Caroline in the City comes to mind.--Attitude2000 18:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I changed the wording of sentence in the article to indicate that Viacom Productions became Paramount Network Television and finally CBS Paramount Network Television. Closing logos of Viacom.  – Pedantic79(talk) 01:41, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Episode List
Do we really need a list of the episodes on the The 4400 page and a seperate list on List of The 4400 episodes? We should really remove the episode list on the main article and just link to the episode list. – Pedantic79(talk) 18:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Go ahead and remove it. dposse 22:54, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Done -- Travisl 23:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Product Placement
I think something should be added about the extensive product placement in the second season. Like the whole scene in "As Fate Would Have It" written just to advertise the Sony PSP (Jordan gives one to Maya, waving it past the camera as he hands it over), the extended advertising of Budweiser in "Rebirth" (again a whole scene written just to promote it), and the other slightly more subtle placements like the iPod headphones in a couple of episodes ("Hidden", "Lockdown"), the plug for the band "The Kills" ("Hidden"), the DaimlerChrysler cars etc. These have been discussed on the internet. --Nfmccourt 19:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought the PSP was advertised quite well for a product-placement, and I think it's only your opinion that entire scenes were created just to talk about these products. I'm going to put a nuetrality tag over that part. Product placement has just become a fact of entertainment, and unless you want to spend more time watching commericals you're just going to have to deal with it. The Radio Star 06:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Issue?
I don't see any discussion here about a NPOV problem in the article, so I've removed the tag indicating as much. An objection on POV grounds should be raised here and discussed before designating the article as problematic. -- Padjet1 22:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Product Placement Removed
__________ The second season of The 4400 was partly financed by extensive product placement by a number of different companies. This has drawn controversy, and the scenes in particular have been reported in the media and ridiculed on the internet due to their unusual blatency. The episode "As Fate Would Have It" contains a scene written to advertise the Sony PSP in which Jordan visits Maya and gives her one as a gift, holding it prominently in front of the camera as he hands it over. The white headphones and a brief shot of the Sony PSP can also be seen in "Hidden" worn by Kyle when his father Tom finally locates him near the end. Additionally, the Sony PSP can again be seen during the season 2 premier "Wake-Up Call", after Shawn heals the leukemia patient, while Jordan Collier is speaking with the child's parents, Shawn is shown watching the boy play with one.

Similarly, in "Rebirth", there is an entire scene written to advertise Budweiser. Richard and a group of fellow Korean War veterans are in a bar, mourning the death of a friend from whose funeral they have just returned. Richard tells a brief anecdote which ends with the departed character buying several crates of Budweiser; he then holds up a can directly to camera and says "Look at this can, it looks just like it did back in the day". The camera then pulls back to reveal the whole bar decked out in Budweiser posters, and multiple cans of Budweiser on the table, as the scene continues.

There are also a number of more subtle placements, such as characters prominently wearing the trademark white iPod headphones (TJ Kim in "Lockdown"), and the brief promotion of the band The Kills in "Hidden". Also, vehicles from DaimlerChrysler's Chrysler Group, such as the Dodge Durango and Chrysler 300, appear frequently in the show being driven by members of NTAC.

_________

Since the Allusions to Judeo-Christian and Scienology have been removed per the Original Research rule, I'm removing Product Placement on the same grounds, plus it's also trivial and not written in a nuetral tone. The Radio Star 08:40, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Formating is all messed up because Wikipedia is one of the slowest sites on the Internet. The Radio Star 08:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Slowest? You're kidding, right? dposse 05:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Agent Marco
Marco's page at has a video; the dialog over the video states, in part, "There are other agents there, who do a lot of the footwork and get in the spotlight, but he's the guy they turn to to process all the data." This strongly, strongly implies to me that he's considered an NTAC agent as well. Travisl 16:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That video does seem to imply that he is an agent, may as well leave it on the page unless its confirmed he isnt an agent.  Matthew Fenton  (Talk | Contribs) 16:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Shawn Farrell
He's a fairly major character, at least as much as Maya. I made the categorised redirect for him ages ago, but someone should expand it into a character profile :). ~ZytheTalk to me! 19:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yea im slowly doing all the articles, will be done tonight or morning. User:MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 19:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Number of episodes
If Gone 1 and Gone 2 are different production numbers, then yes, I'll concede that they're different episodes (which means we shouldn't refer to them as a "two part episode"). Do we know if both halves of New World had different production numbers, in spite of the fact that they were broadcast as one two-hour episode? Travisl 21:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay there produced as two parts (301, 302 respectivley) but edited as one. For Gone there the same story but each part writen seperatley and both produced seperatley (hence two #s) User:MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 21:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks; it makes a lot more sense to me now. I also checked around a bit, and if Jacqueline McKenzie says it's 13 episodes, then who am I to say otherwise? I'll make the update to the main page. Travisl 22:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Allusions to Judeo-Christian texts all removed
The following section of text was titled "Allusions to Judeo-Christian texts":


 * The name of the show itself might be an allusion to the belief held by Jehovah's Witnesses that only 144,000 people will be allowed into Heaven. This is also a reference to biblical scripture in Revelation chapter 7 verse 4. The 4400 people who disappear do so in a rapture like fashion. The show's content has subtle Christian undertones, although not in a way that one would take it to be proselytizing. The baby Isabelle, believed by some to be a Christlike figure and the future savior of mankind, has also committed acts more consistent with an Antichrist. In the same vein, Jordan Collier (note his initials JC), whose intentions and methods are also grey, is killed by a sniper, and after his funeral, his body miraculously disappears. The disappearance is eerily (though not subtly) a reference to the Gospel account of Jesus' resurrection: the empty tomb (coffin) is discovered by a female disciple, who believes that "They have taken him"; in run two male disciples to observe the empty tomb. He is then reborn (albeit in a currently unknown fashion). One possibility, shown in "Gone, Part II," could be that he was taken back to the future right after his death (or before he was completely dead), healed by the future, then put back into the timeline at the end of the second season. However, this does not negate the possibility of him being a Christlike figure, for Satan told Jesus that if he were to fall his angels would come to save him. In this analogy, the angels are the people from the future.


 * In the second seasons episodes there is another subtle hint towards at least three of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Trent Applebaum appears as Famine in episode nine, ‘Weight of the world’, where his bodily fluids increase the metabolism of anyone who ingests it in such a rate that they would eventually starve to death; no matter how much they eat.


 * Jean DeLynn Baker appears as Pestilence in episode 13 ‘Carrier’, where blisters form on her hands when she gets agitated; whenever they burst everyone in range dies immediately.


 * Lastly, T.J. Kim can be seen as War in episode 16 ‘Lockdown’ where she causes a sound that enrages all men that hear it, resulting in (deadly) fights.

This appears to be original research; at the very least the claims here should be sourced. I have moved the section here until that is done. --82.18.13.80 17:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The author is drawing comparisons with little room for opinion between the article's source material and another. I don't think that violates original research rules as all the citation necessary is in the text itself, I think this as well as the scientology sections should be replaced, personally. If someone wrote "there has been much speculation that jordan collier may be modeled after christ on internet messageboards" it wouldn't be removed for this reason; so why delete an extended, interesting, clarified version of the same statement? CodyM 12:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no objection to restoring this and the Scientology sections. I found the comparisons to be fascinating. Travisl 15:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no objections either. User:MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 15:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Guys, it's not whether or not you object, it's whether you can provide sources for the information or not. --TorriTorri 22:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It's all cited inside the text. CodyM 07:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The Future
Should there be a section on the main page that deals soley with "The Future;" what has there agenda been hinted to be, characters from/in the future?


 * You know The 4400 is about the future of research into neurotransmitters, and the human brain. There isn't any Scientology in the program because the drug or substance pormicin would be rejected by the Church of Scientology.


 * The discovery of promicin or drug like it, could have caused the attack on the World Trade Center. The explosion of the warehouse in the last episode of The 4400 was to play up a possible connection to WTC, and a common drug that may have a use in basic inflence telepathy. Each disclipine has a powerful storehouse of belief and knowledge to draw from, in religion, to psychiatry and science. This means basic and new concepts of the human mind face immediate rejection, even among scientists.


 * The future maybe about psychiatric, and religious idea of collective consciousness, and the human mind. Or it could one day be a world of cellphones, brains that electronically interface with machines, with the individual lifeforce of man rejected by science, and a planet with psychotronic weapons. Which can affect human perception, belief, and conscious thought. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.200.181.205 (talk • contribs).


 * I've read these three paragraphs five times, and I'm having a heck of a time understanding what you're trying to suggest. As best as I can tell, you're offering a suggestion as to what the future people might be planning.  Such speculation is WP:OR ("Like most Wikipedia policies, No original research applies to articles, not to talk pages or project pages, although it is regarded as poor taste to discuss personal theories on talk pages."), and clearly shouldn't be added to the main article. Travisl 21:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

You know I watched The NBC show "Heros", I think the Japanese have learned about Promicin, and are using it in Japan for telepathy. Except the writers of "Heros" claim that a persons genetic code needs to evolve to give them superpowers. Any one who is intelligent, and creative should benefit from Promicin. Don't you think its normal for people in the United States and Canada to believe Promicin can give any one superpowers? In Japan they believe a person has to be highly evolved to benefit from Promicin. Where is the Promicn in the Heros program? It in the different neurotransmitters, at work in each of the individual characters. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.200.181.205 (talk • contribs).

The ripple effect
Is there a specific name for that kind of effect, where a person goes back in time to change an event that's (technically) already happened in one timeline? dposse 18:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Dont know, a paradox? thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 18:29, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Grandfather paradox is one such example. See also, Chronology protection conjecture and Novikov self-consistency principle Travisl 15:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

episodes up for deletion
All 4400 episodes (season 1, 2 and 3) have been put up for deletion at AfD (Articles for deletion/The New and Improved Carl Morrissey (The 4400 episode)) thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 14:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The result was keep. Travisl 19:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup tag
The verb tenses are in conflict. Only read the first paragraph, but it needs major cleanup in this way. Either present or past tense, but not both please. Anchoress 22:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Whata re you on about :\? MatthewFenton (talk • contribs) 22:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The 4400 Wiki
This is an announcement to let everyone know that the http://www.the4400wiki.org/ has been greatly improved over the last couple of months, but still needs editors and viewers. --172.168.17.22 23:28, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Too many American 4400
There's clearly an American bias in the 4400. I know it's intended primarily for an American audience, but I still think it's interesting. The USA has 5% of the world's population, and if the people from the future took 4400 randomly that would mean 220 of the 4400 would be Americans.

The pilot episode says that there were 4400s from China and India (China wouldn't let Chinese 4400s back in, India was thinking of doing the same).

I just watched the whole first season on DVD, and I also find it interesting how some 4400 did things which should have been very trivial to the people from the future (cleaning up a park, ect).

Just food for thought.

172.133.149.41 02:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What the hell are you talking about? dposse 17:37, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The problem with the whole 'bias' thing is that the 4400 were not randomly selected


 * The most recent episode gives a reason as to why they were all deposited near Seattle as well. If you think about it, it kind of explains why they would take mainly Americans, mainly English speakers as well. -- Chuq 03:18, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * So here's the thing, not only have specific detailsbeen dropped during the show's course about this, but in the very first episode there's allusion to the fact that the 4400 for the most part stayed inside of a specific 'disease cluster' in the seattle area. Add to that the promicin in the biological systems of the 4400 gives them a drive to be around one another as cited more than once by Maia, and that Ryland specificly said the NSA had been using Gary Navarro to locate some of the "few" who left north america and, the recent Starzl Mutation stuff, and well you've got almost all the explanation you need.

Also....go watch the first season again, I think you missed the point by... well a lot. Cleaning up the park wasn't the big deal, what happened afterwards is. The ripple effect is arguably the heart of the entire series.


 * Its an American series!? Of course its going to have an American angle to it. Just as all aliens invade Japan in a Japanese series or whatever the case may be. Besides if you want to change something in the future isn't America the most likely place to start? Everything this country does has global consequences. -- Pixarian 06:14, 07 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget that America is a continent, not a country! And that not only US doings have global consequences... Was Hitler from the US? (just to say an extreme example)


 * Don't forget that all the alien activity, on earth, happens in the UK, in the "Doctor Who" series. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.218.155.57 (talk) 05:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

CfD
Category:The 4400 cast has been sent to CfD: Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_January_25 thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 13:16, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The result of the debate was beyond my capability to comprehend. What a mess. Glad I missed out on that one. Looks like the category is gone, though. Travisl 18:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

New noticeboard
A new noticeboard, Fiction noticeboard, has been created. - Peregrine Fisher 18:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This noticeboard has been deleted per Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Fiction noticeboard. Please disregard the above post. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 11:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Alana Mareva in series (season) 4?
I know that Billy Campbell (Collier) is joining the cast this June, and I know that Mareva was re-abducted in 3.13, but have the rest of the cast been announced? Alana is my favourite character, and I hope she's in series (season) 4. Thanks Illyria05 (Talk • Contributions) 18:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think there was a fan-page with spoilers that said she wouldn't be signed up for the fourth season at all. I can't find any official information regarding the issue though. I don't know if it was Karina Lombard, but there was one actress (from a series) I read was pregnant. Could be her, but I'm not sure. My memory fails me right now. byeee 15:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Awww, okay, thank you, let's hope she will be in series 4 though :( .. Illyria05 (Talk • Contributions) 16:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

This article does not contain any information from third parties!
This article does not seem to have anything of the following: good or bad reviews, critical commentary (there have to have been some controversials over this series), commentary about the science... Have a look at Heroes (TV series) to see an article about a much younger series with a similar theme that has a lot more to offer than this article. --84.178.108.242 19:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say it's so much younger. It's got 23 episodes whence The 4400 has 32. Yes, it spanned over three years but as far as I know it hasn't been very critically acclaimed and many countries only started airing it recently. Oh, by the way, that reminds me to try and make a broadcasters sub-section. Science? There's not much involved, unless you count the promicin story, which doesn't seem too science to me, but a little more like fiction. I'll try to find some reviews of the show and I really need to make the list of broadcasters. » byeee 21:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, apparently it was taken out for no reason and never put back. Here's the last version. I'll look up some more information and tidy it up tomorrow. Or, if someone feels like it, go ahead. » byeee 22:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * International broadcaster sections are pretty much impossible to accurately cite. Matthew 22:28, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It might not be possible to fully cite, but that's no reason to take it out altogether. » byeee 07:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's every and all reason to remove it. I actually added the table, it turned into a monster. Matthew 09:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * All the series I've looked at have a broadcasters sub-section. What if it's big? » byeee 12:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * See Summary style, and a lot of the same I've seen don't have one... but that's irrelevant. Matthew 12:20, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * But, see also, WP:NOT, which states "Wikipedia articles are not ... TV/Radio Guides.... For example, an article on a radio station generally should not list ... schedules, programme lists, etc., although mention of major events or promotions may be acceptable." How (and whether) this applies to the broadcasters section is up to y'all. Travisl 14:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Travisl is correct stating that they fail WP:NOT, so that's another reason not have such a section within the article. Matthew 14:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Viral Advertising Campaign/Alternate Reality Game
Apparently there is a large-scale viral advertising campaign going on to promote the latest season of the series. Should this be mentioned in the article?

ADWeek article Campaign Website: Promicin (Pro) Campaign Website: Promicin (Contra) Campaign Website: Promicin (Neutral) Campaign Website: Promicin (Neutral) (Alternate adress)

According to the article, there are more sites which I couldn't find yet though.

, because this is a talk page :p Talk to people about Promicin! Talk to your family, your work mates, your teachers, your pastors, your neighbors - anyone! aaah, how I love modern advertising... making us do their job... I wonder how those work mates, teachers and neighbors who haven't ever heard of the show will react when you "educate" them about a fictional substance...  --80.135.72.146 18:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I had the same thought, my personal conclusion/opinion is that the campaign hasn't achieved enough notability to be documented in the article. Matthew 18:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Since it's the first thing you see when you check the official site at USANetwork, maybe it would. » byeee 22:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thinking about it again, I agree with Matthew. It's their advertising campaign, so of course it's noted on the official site of the show. I'd call it "noteable" if it causes attention outside the 4400-sphere, like the Zipatoni/PSP incident did. We should maybe just watch out if anyone of the ad guys should try to pull wikipedia into their game by rewriting the articles as if the events were real. Or maybe I'm just paranoid :) --80.135.87.35 16:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 *  : Just realized, that it's mentioned briefly in the Promicin article. I find that mention justiced though, because it could help clear confusion if people came from one of the ARG sites and wondered why it is called a "fictional substance" here. --80.135.87.35 16:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

While it's sort of unimportant, the other 2 sites are actually:  

Cast
Since the show has a very dynamic cast, maybe it would be a good idea to make a table of actors with four columns: character, actor, starring (seasons in which they were part of the main cast), recurring and even guest starring (think of Peter Coyote who came back for a few episodes). However, I won't make the changes until someone else expresses their opinion. Who knows, maybe there's a better way to do it. » byeee 05:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't believe the cast is anymore dynamic than any other show. I can see no benefit to putting the information within a table -- which just adds constraints... then there's a point that each episode has a cast section... listing cast... for the episode; that would be the better way, if it wasn't already implemented. Matthew 07:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems a little more dynamic than other shows to me (other shows with limited cast, not something like Lost or Desperate Housewives), but I see your point. It's not really needed at this point, maybe after a season or two. Unlike other shows, cast doesn't change mid-season. A way would be to have a Previous Cast sub-heading so the current cast comes first, then the previous cast and/or recurring cast. » byeee 07:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Battle for Promicin
While the fourth season hasn't started and so far it's only been in promotional material, perhaps the page could use a sub-section under synopsis based on the Battle for Promicin? I mean the ripple effect has one and the concept really has taken a bit of a back seat as far as in-show refrences go. It would also be a bit of a good way to point out there is a running campaign as mentioned above dealing with the topic. --The White Light 16:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

List of abilities
A page listing the abilities seen so far (original and promicin-induced, regulars and single-episode characters) would be interesting. Links to related characters, episode (at least where introduced) or other Wiki articles would enhance it. Andyross 22:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure whether it's advisable, Wikipedia is a general-purpose encyclopedia. However, I'm sure it would have a place on the 4400 wiki. » byeee 07:54, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * We actually do list the powers of miscellaneous 4400s (see List of The 4400 minor characters). The main cast each have an article which states their power, if any. Matthew 08:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Spoilers?
Might be nice to add a spoiler warning to the page. I haven't seen any of it, I was just looking for info to see if it was worth buying it on DVD, and three lines into the synopsis I'm told what seems to be a major plot twist (they weren't taken by aliens).

I won't bother now.
 * As a general encyclopaedia, spoiler warnings should generally not be needed, as spoilers are to be expected. Matthew 07:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Ditto. Besides, if you want to know if it's worth buying it on DVD, why don't you look on some website specialized in reviewing shows? » byeee 08:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll third this. The World Book encyclopedia doesn't contain spoiler warnings for Ulysses; the Cliff's Notes don't contain spoiler warnings for The Scarlet Letter. If you're looking for encyclopedic coverage of a story, you shouldn't expect to be warned away from the full coverage of the story. Travisl 14:38, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I just Googled it, and it looked like the best link. Turns out it was the worst. A spoiler warning wouldn't do any harm, but if you prefer to think it's my fault, fine with me. Noted the recommendation to look elsewhere, I shall certainly do that in the future.

1946
According to the article, the 4400 were taken since 1946. I understand that Maia was taken in 1946, but couldn't there have been other people who were taken earlier? --TorriTorriTalk to me! 03:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Maia's profile states she was the "first of the known abductees." - Shannernanner   07:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

All abductees are known. All their information was cataloged when the 4400 were returned, while they were in quarantine, and we were told that Miai was indeed the earliest abductee. Funkadillo 14:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hypothetically (this is original research so strictly for the talk page), how do we know there weren't more than 4400 abductees, and some of them has the ability to become invisible and wandered away (or teleportation, and teleported away, or any number of similar abilities) as soon as he/she was returned? -- Chuq 03:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Because none of the returnees had any recollection whatsoever of what had happened. It's highly unlikely that any of them learned to use their ability so quickly. » byeee 05:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Year is 2006, 4400 abducted over 60 years. 2006 - 60 = 1946 . thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 19:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

DVD cover images
If you haven't heard yet, Wikipedia is cracking down on images such as DVD cover art being used in lists. Admins and others are deleting them from pages (so far, the images themselves are not being deleted) with NO warning. This is NOT an issue of legality, but an issue of Wikipedia policy. See the details at Non-free content. In particular, #8. It's much better if some regular editors do the cleanup themselves before being angrily surprised. Consider using a description and adding catalog or ISBN numbers in place of the pictures. If you know of other articles with similar issues, pass on the warning. You may also want to look through User_talk:Durin, who has been changing many pages. Andyross 21:33, 6 July 2007 (U

I HATE THEY DO THAT, IT SUCKS. WE NEED PICTURES OR ELSE ITS JUST WORDS AND ITS NOT APPEALING NOR INTERESTING AND YOU GET BORED 'CAUSE ITS JUST READING NO PICTURES!4.226.63.240 20:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

season 4
why is there no information about season 4 in the episodes or plot sections and absolutely no mention on season 5!?4.226.63.240 20:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC) 77.224.48.161 18:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC) If you are so upset at not being anything there, why don't you write it down yourself? ;-)

yea why is that, how is it that after a good season of a TV show (season 3) and everyone is talking about it (press, fans) that the season after is not followed well or is not really recognized :S Andrew22k 18:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Promise City
Promise City is an important factor in the 4400 series, much like the 4400 Center, Highland Beach and the Haspel Corporation (the latter one being use only a few time, while Highland Beach was used twice, but still remain an important part of the series because of it's role with the 4400). Because I myself don't have enough information to produce this page (I could even consider it a stub) I need some help starting the page, also I'm asking if it's even worth it. (Xoirun 23:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC))
 * Good idea for an article, here it is: Promise City (The 4400). Shimawa zen (talk) 23:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "4400"
There's no debate as to whether it's pronounced "forty-four hundred," but the question has come up: do we mention the correct pronunciation in the article? I don't feel strongly either way, but I had a few minutes, and looked at a few other shows to see how they dealt with it:
 * $1.98 Beauty Show - No (pronounced "dollar ninety-eight")
 * 227 (TV series) - No (pronounced "two two seven")
 * Rescue 911 - No (pronounced "nine one one")
 * Beverly Hills, 90210 - No (pronounced "nine oh two one oh")
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000 mentions that it's often abbreviated "MST3K", but no pronunciation of this is given.
 * 2ge+her - Yes (pronounced "together")
 * Numb3rs - Yes ("Numbers, officially NUMB3RS")

Of these, I think 90210 and 227 are the closest to what we're looking at here. The two that do give pronunciations do so because of the unusual characters in the titles. There's no unusual characters in "The 4400" (hmm... let me rephrase that; the show is all about unusual characters) There's no unreadable symbols in "T-h-e 4-4-0-0".

Secondly, other than even thousands, the few examples of pop culture 4-digit hundreds that I've come up with (e.g., 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, the Atari 2600 and 5200, 2600: The Hacker Quarterly) all are pronounced "x-hundred".

In conclusion, I'm thinking it's obvious that it's forty-four hundred, and pronunciation isn't needed (in spite of the fact that I added it a few edits ago). ''Edit: I conceded this was incorrect a year later. See 18:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC).'' Travisl 18:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The only way I could see any ambiguity is if the title didn't contain "the". I've not come across anybody who states it as "The Four-Four-Zero-Zero" or "The Four-Thousand-Four-Hundred", honestly I don't see any ambiguity.. if people who've never seen the show can get it right, it's of note the title doesn't contain a comma. Matthew 18:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I have never heard of the show 227 (TV series), and I haven't clicked on the link yet, so i can honestly say I know nothing about the show. At first glance I would've read it as: Two twenty-seven, then I thought, why not "two hundred (and) twenty seven"? Before I knew what 90210 stand for, I really didn't know why people read it that way. Not everyone in the world lives in the US and not everyone knows that number is a zip code. I certainly didn't. "Forty-four hundred" might have been of common usage and even obvious to us North Americans, but this is informal in international English. See Names_of_numbers_in_English. List_of_numbers does not even list x-hundred alternatives. This simple typical English number table doesn't list x-hundred either. Many languages do not render such number in the "x-hundred" way. The German version gives a pronunciation 4400 – Die Rückkehrer. Seeing that the English version is the most complete of the 4400 articles; many non-english speakers do look up first the english article before starting off; and seeing the number of non-English versions that are available, the show has international appeal. Providing the pronunciation certainly would be useful and even necessary. In that same 1st sentence, I could care less what associated networks with whom CBS had produced The 4400 to tell you the truth. Who are we to judge what info is important and obvious?


 * Before I saw the show I couldn't be sure if it's 44-hundred or 4 thousand 4 hundred. It's the same way it's obvious to you as it is to me that I couldn't at first figure out what missing comma you are talking about. But now I do just when I was about to sign off. Even with a comma, there would still be people reading 44-hundred, and yes it would then be obvious that it isn't denoting a year. --Kvasir 04:13, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Provide a source then that some people state it as "4 thousand 4 hundred" - which I doubt. Matthew 07:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, as soon as I see someone provide a source saying that EVERYONE says it as "44-hundred" on his/her first attempt. --Kvasir 08:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't believe anybody has stated that everybody states it as "The 4400". The onus is on you to source that people differ from the official title. Matthew 08:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * No one is disputing what the correct reading is. Yes, no one has stated that everyone states it as "The 44-hundred", but you have insisted that it is obvious that there is no need to clarify as if there is no possibility that anyone could have read it any other way. That sure sounds to me like "everyone states it as "The 44-hundred'". If i remember correctly, it was my edit that first got reverted. By your logic, the onus is really on you -- prove until guilty.


 * And since when do we need to source discussion about whether or not to include what is already undisputed fact in the article? Next thing I hear I would be accused of original research. Oh I have already been accused of that. I have already referenced that "x-hundred" format is not universal. By the way, the original text in the article says "... a group of exactly four thousand, four hundred people at... ", not "forty-four hundred", before I changed it to numerals. That was the reason I saw there is a need to clarify the pronunciation. --Kvasir 08:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * For a non-native English speaker like me, "44 hundred" was in no way "obvious". It is contrary to the way we're taught to read numbers in English. --Bisqwit 14:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It's been over a week and looks like no one is refuting this testamony. Bisqwit pretty much summarised what I've been trying to point out all along. I'll give it another week before adding the reading back in the article. --Kvasir 04:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You will not do any such thing. One person has agreed with you, two people (myself and llyria05) have blatantly disagreed with you. Travisl appears to be leaning against it as well. Point in fact you have no consensus for your edit and any such edit would be a disruptive violation of WP:CONSENSUS. Matthew 07:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * For proof of what Matthew said, I am replying on the talk page. I do not support adding it. If we did, we might as well add pronunciation for every Wikipedia article Illyria05 (Talk • Contributions) 14:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Sheesh calm down. That's why I've said I'm waiting for one more week for comments since no one has present counter arguments last week. Wikipedia isn't a concensus of 4-5 people. Three versus two, that hardly count as majority in a democracy. Besides I have yet seen any valid reasoning from you Matthew other than the fact that it seems obvious to you. All the arguements I've seen on the otherside are based on one-sided preference that is cultural and lingual-centric. I have also not seen any counter statement against the points made in support of adding a pronunciation note. Again, there is no argument against setting a precedent. There are already numerous wikipedia articles supplying a pronunciation. As I said before, the German version of The 4400 provides a pronunciation, why not the English. --Kvasir 18:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'd never heard of this show until just now, and would have had no idea the correct title was pronounced "the forty-four hundred" were it not for this discussion. I see absolutely no reason why this shouldn't be stated in the intro. Is there a specific rule concerning this, or are some editors just being stubborn with their reverts removing the 'offending' 4 words? Id say we need to get some feedback and consensus here. anyone?--71.97.134.76 (talk) 19:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * For almost a year we haven't seen any evidence on the other side showing us how "44-hundred" is obvious. Seems like their opinions have been based on lingual and cultural centric POV. --Kvasir (talk) 09:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup. Ya'll convinced me that my initial take on this was incorrect. Enough people said that it wasn't obvious that it became clear it wasn't obvious. Thanks for following through. Travisl (talk) 18:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Could this be clarified
"The baby Isabelle, believed by some to be the future savior of mankind, has no qualms about violently killing people who get in her way." Seems to be a bit misleading or unclear to me, a case could be made that those that were killed, were killed in self defence, while Jordan apparently is no longer dead according to the final episode of season 2, though she has used her powers to cause pain and in ways which seem bad, the consequences are usually good as in the frightening hallucinations shown to her mother to get her to return to the other 4400 and so give them access to Isabelles' untainted promicin. We don't for that matter know that it is Isabelle herself who is controlling her powers or preprogrammed responses from the future as in the case of Alana Marevas' preprogrammed ability to create an hallucinatory alternate reality.

As we learn in the 4th episode Isabell was planted by "The Marked" in the future who are obviously the antagonists of the people who created the 4400s in the first place. So she is supposed to kill all of the 4400, not in any way intended to save mankind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tajpan (talk • contribs) 12:25, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

CFD notice for Category:The 4400
Removed cfdnotice, cfd has completed. --Kbdank71 16:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Note: Please direct all comments on this category to the discussion page above, so they can appear in one place for all interested editors. Thanks. Dugwiki 21:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The result of the debate was keep. Travisl 19:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

CFD notice
Removed cfdnotice, cfd has completed. --Kbdank71 16:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The result of the debate was rename to Category:The 4400 cast. Travisl 17:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

"Nina Jarvis and theory room consultant Marco Pacella"
"...seasons two and three focus on Nina Jarvis and theory room consultant Marco Pacella."

That's not true - certainly in the case of Season 2.80.195.146.94 (talk) 07:25, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Mistake : Highland Beach
I really don't think Highland Beach is the place where the 4400 returned ! Check out episode called "White Light" : Diana: What's at Highland Beach? ''Tom: That's where Shawn disappeared. '' If Highland Beach was the place where they came back, Diana would definitely know about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.8.214.243 (talk) 21:55, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

"Ripple Effect"?
This describes a trope in the series that is better seen by watching it, not reading it here. Unless the trope is unique in it's presentation in this series (which in comparison to other serial dramas, I feel it's not) it's not necessary to the Synopsis. It should be removed IMO, but I thought I'd see if others concur before doing it. 209.180.155.12 (talk) 07:41, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Is a show/was a show
A few times now, well-meaning users have changed the opening sentence from "The 4400 is a science fiction television program" to "The 4400 was a science fiction television program". It is still a science fiction program, even though it's been canceled. Off the top of my head, I checked five other shows (Gilligan's Island, The Twilight Zone, M*A*S*H (TV series), The X-Files, To Tell the Truth), and it wasn't until I checked a sixth (Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In) that I found "was" instead of "is". Is there a policy in place, is it a matter of whether the show is still being broadcast in reruns, or what? I've changed it back to "is" again, but I'd feel better knowing that I can point to a documented reason. Travisl (talk) 23:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I feel any TV Show no longer in production should be referred to as "was". If a spin-off, reboot, or restart occurs, then "is" would be appropriate.  It's less in reference to the fact that it's a TV Show, and more to the fact that the work for the show is completed; cancelled, ended or otherwise. 209.180.155.12 (talk) 07:46, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

In English grammar, because the television show/movie/book still exists even though it is not actively being created, it still exists in the present leading to use the present tense "is" versus the past tense "was". For example, we say "Zeus is the god of the gods" and not "Zeus was the god of gods." Bovineboy2008 (talk) 02:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think under some circumstances you would say: "Program X was a show produced in the 90s, and the reruns are now being carried by Y Network." --Kvasir (talk) 09:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

season 5
A news paper has reported that 4400 has shut down production due to the strike. Is that enough confirmation of renewal for S5? Vancouver Sun Apologies for dealing in rumors, but I don't know which websites to check. I had heard that SciFi might be picking up the 4400. Does anyone know where to check for more information? 125.14.79.48 (talk) 09:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately the show has been cancelled - http://syfyportal.com/news424560.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.14.91.70 (talk) 09:32, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the age of the comment is proof enough of validity. Joel Gretsch was cast on "V", M. Ali is in other movies, Summer Glau did Terminator: TSCC briefly... they've moved on. 209.180.155.12 (talk) 07:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)