Talk:The Cramps

Active to 2009?
They played their last show in 2006 and did do anything in the studio after that. Why does the article say they were active till 2009? Yeah, I know that's when Lux died, but they were INactive during that period.

Lenbrazil (talk) 03:31, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

90's/00's
Would someone mind expanding the section about the Cramps' output in the 90's and 00's? The sections before it seem to be pretty well-researched (although a band with a history like the Cramps' should have a much longer article), but the 90s and 00's have nothing. Perhaps someone who knows more about that time period wouldn't mind contributing? wilhelm 05:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Lineup
I'm trying to put together a chronology of band members like in the Bad Religion and Social Distortion articles but there are so many changeovers in the Cramps that I'm not sure which version (if any) to go with. Any opinions? Downstream 16:33, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

When was Tim Ferris aka SugarPie Jones in the band. The Celebrity Skin wiki says 2000 and he is added below but not included here. Just asking Nofway (talk) 18:48, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Discography
It would be nice if The Cramps' albums had their own articles so the discography section was more useful (tracklistings were available, etc.) Franknotes 20:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Please do not use album covers in the discography. They are not allowed. Please see WP:ALBUMS for more information. -- JD554 08:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The singles list on the discography seesm incomplete. I remember there was a very early single, Uranium Rock/Rocket in My Pocket that came before anything else, though I couldn't tell you much else about it. 193.113.48.7 (talk) 12:02, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Influenced by
It has been said that they were under heavy influence by the Legendary Stardust Cowboy. I cant name any sources for this though, if someone knows of this that would be a useful fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.220.93.209 (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I seem to recall a mention in an early issue of Spin (1985?). No longer having that magazine, I can not confirm it, however. - It doesn&#39;t stick. (talk) 20:08, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Black influence as well!
I did remove the proto from the line:   ...and proto rock and roll like Link Wray and Hasil Adkins because that is not proto, it was rock and roll at the peak of it's time! proto rock and roll is music from the 30s and 40s.. & it is absolute necessary to include that black influence as well! They did cover so much rhythm and blues songs! Just check the Born bad comps!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.245.168.190 (talk) 22:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Blues
from the book: Dick Porter – The Cramps (Plexus, 2006) 144pp Ivy says "The failure of outsiders to acknowledge the influence of blues and R&B on The Cramps is an omission bordering on racism. Rockabilly is rooted in the blues and we consider ourselves a blues band." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.217.38.232 (talk) 20:37, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Surf rock
The Cramps are not surf rock. I know this because i have 3 of their first albums. Including the EP Gravest Hits, which has genres listed as punk rock, psychobilly and surf rock. Also, surf rock was an influence on psychobilly. If you want to argue, don't expect to get your way unless you actually have their first EP. Metal of  Head  10:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And, even though they covered Surfin' Bird, thats only one track, and they did it in a different style. Metal  of  Head  10:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I mean, it's all opinion, but without a reliable source, this one is definitely problematic, as the NPR article says that they were influenced by surf music, not that they are a surf band. RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 05:33, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

New photo
I see that there is a bit of a controversy about using a 2006 image of the Cramps, now that the website photo which was here has been removed. I saw the band three times, and I hope that this image from the second time I saw them in 1982 will be good enough for most here. I don't want to debate the aesthetics of the 2006 image, especially given that the contributor put it here gratis and in good faith. But with my image at least we have something of the band from their earlier days. Canada Jack (talk) 16:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

the Cramps are not Psychobilly
they even don't like it! just read the interviews! they point out that it has no groove for them and that it is not sexy..

http://suicidegirls.com/interviews/The+Cramps/ difference re: you guys still calling your music psychobilly, because a lot of critics sure do?

PI: It's weird. We used that word when we first started out in 1976 before we even had gigs we had posters for fake gigs we hoped to have which had psychobilly and rockabilly on them. I think psychobilly has evolved into a musical style now which kind of isn't what we are. Maybe it means different things to different people. There seems to be a style of music called psychobilly now and I think it's defined by a standup bass, a very speeded up pace which we don't do. I think our songs have a more sensuous tempo to our songs. I'm not sure what exactly defines psychobilly but it seems to have taken on a life on its own. But its not quite what we do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.245.168.190 (talk) 22:21, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

In the inteview for Alternative Press (Nov 2004) Lux say about psychobilly:

We've heard other people say they where influenced by us, but when you listen to their music, it's some pop crab or it's hardcore punk or something. The thing that makes rockabilly unique is the sexuality of it-it's real groove. Psychobilly today doesn't really have a groove. It's as if (the bands) are tryin' to make their quota in the factory. It doesn't seem sexual to me. -- It is respectless against the cramps to label their music today psychobilly and it is simply wrong to call them innovators of psychobilly, as they did use the term first in another context for another meaning that it has today. They did not innovate todays psychobilly! Of course they did influence it (without wanting it) but they did something complete different.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.135.82.180 (talk) 01:13, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

superfluous citation needed
In the note referring the reader to Johnny Cash's song "One Piece at a Time" that is the citation. Anyone can google the song or the lyrics. Use your head for more than a hat rack wikicops.

End "citation needed" abuse! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.55.54.38 (talk) 16:55, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

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Genres
I had moved the genre citations over to the section The Cramps, and then took out several genres that weren't widely cited, and the citations and single-source genres were added back. I just wanted to make a couple of notes:


 * The citation for surf music doesn't say that the Cramps are a surf band. It says they were influenced by surf music.
 * The Dave Barry book cited isn't a reliable source. For one thing, it's a humor book. For another, it cited Wikipedia as it's source, saying that Wikipedia called the Cramps pioneers of gothabilly.

Gothabilly is actually one of the better sourced genre descriptions of the band, as I added three citations calling the Cramps gothabilly which are better sources than Dave Barry's book, because they're not humor publications and don't cite Wikipedia as their source. Basically by citing the Dave Barry book, it's as if Wikipedia is citing itself as it's own source for claims it made. Which isn't necessary with the three other sources cited. RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 05:31, 8 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @RockabillyRaccoon, thanks for your post. And Thank you for your contributions and improvements. Here are some thoughts...
 * Re: Surf punk or surf music: The Phoenix New Times states that: the '80s, psychobilly outfit The Cramps brought a darker, sexier side to surf music, the New York Times states The B-52s and the New York psychobilly brooders the Cramps both self-released their debut 7-inches in 1978 — the original recording of this beach blanket boogie served as the B-side to “Rock Lobster.” Together, the two bands were among the first to mix surf into the world of punk rock. , Spin magazine states The Cramps' first album in five years is familiar enough to please, offering the group's trademark surf/punk/rockabilly grunge... , the Encyclopedia of Popular Music Volume 1, page 75 states: The Bitchin ' Summer EP was one of the first skate / surf punk crossover items, with three energized surf guitar ... of the following year ( dubbed the We've Come For Your Birds Tour ) , alongside the Cramps and the Gore Gore Girls , and others, so I think surf or surf punk should remain as a genre.
 * Re: The Dave Barry book, that can be removed, I agree that it is not a strong source, and he is not a music critic or music historian. My only objection was that you removed all the other genres from the infobox, leaving only psychobilly and gothabilly. The Cramps cross over so many genres, so I think it is WP:NPOV to leave the other genres such as punk & surf, etc. in the infobox, and simply improve the sourcing. Netherzone (talk) 15:56, 8 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The instructions at Template:Infobox_musical_artist tell us to use "two to four" genres in the infobox, and aim for generality. Let's choose the four best supported genres, leaning toward broader strokes. Definitely psychobilly is very strongly associated the group. I think we can drop "garage punk" because it's largely included in psychobilly. Binksternet (talk) 17:38, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you @Binksternet for that info. I agree that psychobilly is essential. I think we should use punk rather than garage punk or horror punk. Netherzone (talk) 17:51, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * That works very well. Binksternet (talk) 17:54, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I think we should also have a look at the categories that were removed:
 * American gothic rock groups
 * Garage punk groups
 * Punk rock groups from New York (state)
 * Country musicians from New York (state)
 * I think that the addition of Gothabilly groups is much better than American gothic rock groups, thanks for that change. I strongly think Punk rock groups from New York (state) should be added back to categories (I feel less strongly about Garage rock groups.) The removal of Country musicians from New York (state) was a sound decision. If there are other suggestions for categories let's discuss. Netherzone (talk) 18:09, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

This is what Wiki says about “Gothabilly” in the opening lines of the article: Gothabilly (sometimes hellbilly[1]) is an offshoot of psychobilly influenced by the goth subculture.

The Cramps always denied that they were psychobilly. They are proto-paychobilly. And they obviously aren’t “influenced by goth subculture”, as they predate that music scene.

They are a punk rock band that inspired psychobilly. Full stop. Keithramone33 (talk) 20:59, 19 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks @Keithramone33, I agree with you that they are a punk rock band first and foremost. There was a discussion on my personal talk page that I'll move here in the next edit for more of the backstory of this discussion. Netherzone (talk) 22:50, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

RE: That Dave Barry book discussing The Cramps
I have no dog in this fight. All I'm going to say, because you reverted my edits twice is, check the article section The Cramps. The citations and genres are still there. They're not "deleted" because they were no longer in the infobox. It's not a POV to list what reliable sources say. In fact, it's quite the opposite of POV, it's neutral. I'm not sure why you decided to list citations twice so now there's two copies of each citation. The thing is, though, the only citation deleted was a humor book by Dave Barry and I deleted that because it's not a reliable source for a music biography. If you look at the text of the book, Barry says that Wikipedia says that, etc. I added three reliable sources for the same information cited. The whole reason why the Dave Barry book was removed as a citation is because it's basically Wikipedia citing itself, because Barry says that he read it on Wikipedia in the page cited, aside from the fact that the book is a collection of humor columns. RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 03:51, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I just noticed another issue when looking at the citations. The NPR article cited for classifying the Cramps as surf music doesn't actually say that they are a surf band. It says "The quartet took the rumbling sound of 1950s rockabilly and surf music and slowed it to a haunting crawl." That means they were influenced by surf music, not that they are a surf band. RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 04:02, 8 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @RockabillyRaccoon, this dog has no fight in them. Nor any interest in conflict. I agree that the DB book is not the best - at all - however there are many sources out there to improve the article, and he is not the only one who considered them punk. All I'm suggesting is constructive improvement...rather than deleting sourced material regarding genre, take it to talk or find a better source, or leave it alone, and add content without removal. Neutral POV is key, which I think we agree on. We are both here to build an encyclopedia and may think differently about things, but how about if we use the Article Talk Page? Maybe there are other editors who may want to weigh in. Netherzone (talk) 04:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Actually if you look at the text of Dave Barry's book, he's not discussing them within the context of being punk rock, but of Wikipedia referring to them as gothabilly. I added three sources for gothabilly that didn't cite Wikipedia as a reference. RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 05:23, 8 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @RockabillyRaccoon, glad to see you posted on the Article Talk Page, which is where I prefer the discussion to take place. The reason is so that other interested editors can contribute to the discussion since this is a collaborative project. Honestly, I couldn't give a human fly about the Dave Barry book. I don't care if it is removed, it was not I who added it in the first place. Perhaps the editor who added it will chime in on why they felt it was a strong source, and if not, it can be removed. The reason for my original revert is that you removed all the genres from the infobox without getting consensus and only left psychobilly and gothabilly as the genres which was not NPOV.. Hope that clears things up! Netherzone (talk) 15:17, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't know how it wasn't NPOV when my reason was that psychobilly and gothabilly had more sources than any of the other genres cited. I literally took no opinion and just went by the number of citations. RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 07:34, 9 August 2022 (UTC)


 * @RockabillyRaccoon, I've kindly asked you twice on my talk page, once on your talk page, and twice in edit summaries to please use the ARTICLE TALK PAGE for discussion. I'm not sure why you are reluctant to do so. To directly answer your quandary above re: NPOV, you removed all the genres except Rockabilly and Gothabilly from the genres in the infobox including punk, and you removed all the categories except American psychobilly musical groups and Gothabilly groups.
 * Now, I admire bold editing, and it's clear you are knowledgeable and passionate about rockabilly music, and are an intelligent editor, but come on, that is not editing from a neutral point of view per WP:NPOV which is a key policy of the encyclopedia.
 * Drive-by genre changes and drive by category changes to an article you had barely edited in the past (except to remove punk in 2021) is not a good look. I believe you are here in good faith, however please be cognizant that this style of editing could be perceived as Genre Warrior - see WP:GWAR.
 * The Cramps were first described in the article as punk, rockabilly and garage rock at the very inception of the article in 2001, as you can see here: . Yes, there have been some editorial disputes over the years, none of which I have been involved in, but by the time the infobox was first created ten years later in 2011, the genres were garage punk, psychobilly, punk blues, gothabilly, and the categories were American punk rock groups, Garage punk groups as well as Rockabilly and Psychobilly. Those remained fairly stable for more than ten additional years.
 * You claim the sources for punk and other genres aren't there or are weak in comparison; well then improve the sourcing! You certainly have the chops. Don't just improve it to support your personal POV. Deferring to a preferred genre could be viewed as original research WP:OR. Regarding the availability of reliable sources, a google search of: "The Cramps" + rockabilly, reveals 237,000 hits, where as a search of "The Cramps" + punk reveals 499,000 hits. About 200% more, so let's agree that sources are out there. A Google Books search reveals lots: . There are similar results for rockabilly. Obviously not all those Google hits are going to be relevant reliable sources, but one cannot deny that The Cramps have been associated with punk from their first days playing at CBGBs. A more restrictive search of news & magazine and academic journal articles reveal some very good sources . There are scores of reliable sources available.  I haven't yet reviewed the edits you made to the body of the article, but if they don't comply with NPOV,  they may be removed.
 * Here is my question for you: Can we agree that the genres and categories can include both punk and rockabilly? Netherzone (talk) 22:46, 9 August 2022 (UTC)