Talk:The Great Divorce

Dante allusions
Shouldn't the allusions to Dante's inferno be mentioned? Also, the science-fiction inspiration, with the hard water and the "travel in size" In his preface, Jack doesn't remember which SF-short story he got the ideas from, but perhaps we can help him? :-) -- Vintermann


 * I added a section that references a few quotes in the book and the preface; unfortunately I have no idea what the title of the story in question is. piman 06:49, 2005 Feb 25 (UTC)

The summary of the story
Does anyone else think that the summary of The Great Divorce in this article is a bit colloquial and not very adult or scholarly? It seems like a fourth grader doing a book report. I don't think it gets at the message of the story (some people are simply not willing to let go of whatever it is that is taking them to hell, even if the face of Heaven; Heaven is far more "real" than hell; etc.). Perhaps this whole article needs to be cleaned up and "professionalized".

Cleanup
I tried to make the article more comprehensive, clear, and flowing; as well as to add more facts. I also felt a need not to completely trash the efforts of the person(s) who did the earlier versions, and tried hard not to revise or rearrange any more material than absolutely necessary.

I would have been much more comfortable omitting the suggestion of it's being a 'Christian' work at all: because first, because it is not theological, as pointed out in the article; and second, because we do not normally refer to classic works much more openly and specifically Christian, such as Shakespeare's "Measure for Measure" or even more so Malory's "Le Morte d'Arthur", as such; and indeed to most people the adjective "Christian" automatically implies that it's subject can not possibly be of any interest to them, which is certainly untrue of "The Great Divorce".

Finally the concept of an afterlife, it's circumstances varying with the moral quality of the individual, is common to almost all religions, and even some non-religions:


 * "Traditional Spiritualists state that they are not necessarily Christians. While they view Jesus as a great teacher and likely a medium, they do not see belief in his teachings as required in order to enter the afterlife."


 * -from the Wikipedia article "Spiritualism".

Cspalletta 19:46, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Lede
I've just changed the second sentence from:
 * Although not one of Lewis' better-known works, many perceptive readers consider it to be one of his finest

to:
 * Although less renowned than Narnia and the Space Trilogy, it is considered one of his finest works of fiction by many Lewis fans

which is less self-congratulatory (at least in my case), more encyclopedic and has subject-verb agreement. On the other hand, it's a bit weasel-wordy. I'm sure someone can improve on this.

Cheers, CWC (talk) 17:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:CSLewis TheGreatDivorce.jpg
Image:CSLewis TheGreatDivorce.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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"Grey town"
I thought the 'grey town' Lewis first finds himself in represented more of a purgatory. Don't want to edit the article with this idea, though, because I'm not sure if I'm right about it.


 * I'm not sure if your inquiry has been resolved or not yet; "The Grey Town" in this Novel is symbolic of Hell. And it remains as Hell unless the occupant leaves, should the occupant leave then "The Grey Town" was always Purgatory to that person.  So if it represents Purgatory, it also represents Hell, as it was shown, some of the visitors simply returned home and likely didn't return.Sonalchagi (talk) 22:59, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:CSLewis TheGreatDivorce.jpg
Image:CSLewis TheGreatDivorce.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Primary and Secondary sources
I think that the sentence about primary and secondary sources should be changed to remove that distinction because a "secondary source" is material that is written to discuss the primary sources. For example, if I were to write a biography of C.S. Lewis, I would use his writings and correspondence as "primary sources." "Primary sources" would also be what people who knew him wrote about him as his contemporaries. Biographies and books written about him by scholars would be considered "secondary sources" like my own hypothetical biography. One could say that Dante, Milton, Bunyan, et al. had a direct relationship to Lewis's storyline because he used concepts and themes from them. In his preface he mentions an American sci-fi writer, whose work Lewis had read, who used the idea that the elements a time traveller encountered when he went back to the past would be dangerous to him (hard as Lewis makes the grass and the elements of the "Valley of the Shadow of Life"). Jeremy Taylor, Prudentius, and MacDonald are alluded to in the story, and may have also been direct sources. The point I am making is that the concept of primary and secondary sources here is misapplied.--Drboisclair (talk) 14:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we know fiction isn't literal
Why does the article keep hammering away at this? Saying "This is an allegory" should be sufficient. CharlesTheBold (talk) 04:24, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

But it's not an allegory. It's merely non-literal. --134.193.112.148 (talk) 06:53, 30 March 2010 (UTC) Well, the total work is not an allegory. Certain passages contain allegories though, like the lizard and the stallion bit. --134.193.112.148 (talk) 06:53, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the story is not allegory at all, and Lewis strenuously objected to that term being applied to his fiction. Instead, he referred to his fiction as "suppositional" literature. For instance, in the preface to The Great Divorce, he states, "I beg readers to remember that this is a fantasy....[t]he transmortal conditions are solely an imaginative supposal [emphasis mine]." See p. 424 of Walter Hooper's biography of Lewis for a detailed discussion of the difference between allegory and supposition. The distinction may seem like hair splitting at first, but it is important once you grasp the difference. Adamantius3 (talk) 01:00, 29 June 2010 (UTC)adamantius3

Online version
Does anyone know an online version or audio version? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.19.227.52 (talk) 15:49, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Needs complete rewrite
The premise of the article is false:


 * portrays Christian perceptions of the life after death allegorically, specifically one individual's journey from hell/purgatory ("the grey town") to heaven and salvation.

It does not portray Christian perceptions of life after death in any way, but is rather about the choices people make while alive and how that affects their character.

Still more inaccurate is the claim that it's about "one individual's journey from hell/purgatory ("the grey town") to heaven and salvation." Previous contributors to the article may perhaps have confused the plot of this story with The Screwtape Letters. The protagonist of GD wakes up from his "vision in a dream" to find himself back in his dingy room, very much alive.

I'd like to delete the first several paragraphs. --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:13, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I did a lot of deleting and made a few small corrections. The article is shorter, but more accurate now. Later on, perhaps we could expand it by describing the characters the narrator meets and the types of choices each made. --Uncle Ed (talk) 20:10, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * On what basis do you make your claim that this novella is not an allegory? Not that it necessarily is. The author points out that the experiences of the individuals in question become either "heavenly" experiences or "hellish" experiences depending on where they end up. To uncover what exactly Lewis is trying to do one has to see the parallels with William Blake's work and Dante's work. The George MacDonald "spirit guide" does some explaining of what is happening. Hell is portrayed as minuscule while Heaven or the outskirts of Heaven is gigantic and more real. Unless you can come up with reliable sources either from the author himself or from secondary literature, you are engaging in original research.--Drboisclair (talk) 20:33, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The statement you deleted: "portrays Christian perceptions of the life after death allegorically, specifically one individual's journey from hell/purgatory ("the grey town") to heaven and salvation" may be somewhat inaccurate. I think that Lewis makes the point that there is either heaven or hell. He appears to portray the differences between individuals in hell and individuals, who are residents of heaven or will be.--Drboisclair (talk) 20:38, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The narrative is a dream that the individual has before he awakens in London or somewhere in England during the "Blitz on Britain" in 1940 presumably. In that respect Lewis may be following the concept of The Pilgrim's Progress, which is an allegory.--Drboisclair (talk) 20:42, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate your corrections, and you raise a good question about the allegory thing. I don't wish to engage in original research, so please delete or undo any violations of WP:OR I've made. In fact, I'd rather have the entire entry reverted to yesterday's version than inject any of my own unfounded opinions into the article. --Uncle Ed (talk) 21:39, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Drboisclair, in response to your question, "On what basis do you make your claim that this novella is not an allegory?" see p. 424 of Walter Hooper's biography of Lewis for a detailed discussion of the difference between allegory and supposition. Lewis strenuously objected to the term "allegory" being applied to his fiction. Instead, he referred to his fiction as "suppositional" literature. For instance, in the preface to The Great Divorce, he states, "I beg readers to remember that this is a fantasy....[t]he transmortal conditions are solely an imaginative supposal [emphasis mine]."Adamantius3 (talk) 04:28, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Re: Dante / Re: Allegory
If someone is planning a rewrite, and also in response to the "Dante" comment, it seems to me that Lewis' work is more closely aligned to Plato's Allegory of the Cave http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave. In both cases, a person, previously in a limited environment, is "carried up to a higher level" of experience. Plato's Allegory speaks of a "prisoner" being freed and carried up to a place of "reality", is this not similar to Lewis' "dreamer" getting on the bus? Perhaps at least a link to Plato's Allegory might be appropriate?

GlenBarney (talk) 04:22, 17 October 2010 (UTC) GlenBarney

IP vandalism claim
Does anyone think this is a reversion of vandalism? --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:03, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Here are my last four edits, all reverted with RVV comment:    Since I don't like edit warring, I'll just wait a bit and see what others think. --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:06, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Motion Picture
A 2013 release is planned? Has anyone even read this since last year? No film has yet been released. 75.219.181.139 (talk) 21:30, 22 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I changed it to "was planned"; it's hard to see what the current reported status at IMDB is without subscribing to IMDBPro, but there are zillions of promising-sounding film-making projects which never end up resulting in a finished movie. Such lack of updating is quite common on Wikipedia articles... AnonMoos (talk) 04:04, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Influence of Ray Cummings
The idea of "travelling in size" was explored extensively in the pulp-SF novels of Ray Cummings, most notably The Girl in the Golden Atom and its sequels. There are seeming echoes of Cummings not only in The Great Divorce but also in The Dark Tower and elsewhere in the Lewis canon. Is there any hard evidence anyone is aware of that Lewis read and was influnced by Cummings? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.241.199.21 (talk) 09:28, 24 June 2014 (UTC)


 * It's by no means impossible that Lewis read Cummings, but it's speculative at this point, and without reliable sources, it can't be added to the article... AnonMoos (talk) 13:30, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Professor
I am new to this so please forgive me! I wondered if there should be a 'global' change to the entry for C S Lewis, to recognise his professorship? He was not merely a writer, but an academic also? I noticed on a cover of one of his books, it said 'Prof Lewis' & I thought that was a good remark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Christos-radio (talk • contribs) 21:36, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi. According to the manual of style, "For people with academic or professional titles, subsequent uses of names should omit them. For example, use 'Asimov', 'Hawking', and 'Westheimer'; not 'Dr. Asimov', 'Professor Hawking', or 'Dr. Ruth'."  You have changed the first mention of Lewis' name to have the honorific "Prof.," and I'm not sure whether that might be okay.  Subsequent mentions should definitely not have the honorific.  --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 15:01, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
 * (That's C S Lewis, an Oxbridge trooper.) But aside from him, there's an ocean of difference between an earned degree and an honorary one. IMO likewise between teaching professors and those who've never taught, but have enuf earned or honorary degrees and make being called "Professor Dildome" their price for a commencement address. I see there are honorary professorships, so do we kowtow to their holders (thus tarnishing a worthy, elite, and i think potentially resentful, profession)?? Does the MOS make honorary/earned distinction, either as to degree or prof'ship? --Jerzy•t 16:21, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

St. Louis
At least one St.-Louisian with access to a printing press uses the term to refer to a legal change crucial to the relationship between St. Louis and St. Louis County, Missouri. It's not unusual for a merger or some kind of partial or functional merger between a city and county (i think the courts in LA call describe themselves as "in and for the City and County of") to exist. Maybe this is one jerk's obsession in the St. L case, and maybe it's already well covered. And maybe not. Verbum sap. Ah! The city is no w longer inside the county. --Jerzy•t 15:36 & 16:25, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

A Bus Ride To Heaven
If The Great Divorce is an ever-present warning against our ego-driven disputes called 'debates', then our never-ending search for truth is little more than a trick we play on ourselves. Given this, is there any reason to believe that we have any intention of coming to any lasting conclusions, or finding real solutions? For perhaps we are unwilling to admit that we are all trapped in our self-made Grey Towns? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.190 (talk) 10:36, 16 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The purpose of this page is to discuss improving the article. I'm sure there are many other websites which would welcome general reflections on the book... AnonMoos (talk) 19:32, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Certainly went on something of a flight of fantasy there. Sorry, should have kept to suggesting improvements to the article. --95.149.166.202