Talk:The Internationale/Archives/2008

English Pronouciation
Could some please cite the "the traditional workers' pronunciation?" Not only do I want this backed up, but the very phrase "the traditional workers' pronunciation" coupled with a mispronuciation implies that workers are too stupid to pronouce words correctly. I find this characterization offensive. 67.188.7.78 13:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Does this really need a cite in particular? It's very common knowledge among anyone who's likely to sing it in English that that's how it's said, and you can listen to any of the vocal recordings of the Internationale in English to confirm it. And I don't read a patronising tone in that phrase -- more an implication of a good, honest, proletarian way of speaking rather than bourgeois-intellectual attempts to imitate the French pronunciation... Mendor 11:28, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I too would contend with the "traditional workers' pronunciation" statement. I have sung this song hundreds of times in different settings, and many times with hundreds of others and would not recognise the statement that "In English, the traditional workers' pronunciation is not an imitation of the French [ɛ̃tɛʀnasjɔnal(ə)], but rather [ɪntɚnæʃəˈnæli] (rhyming with "alley" or "valley")."


 * As I say, I don't sing it like that and have only come across that pronunciation in a couple of recordings and some Socialist Workers Party members who couldn't remember most of the words.


 * Surely it would be more accurate to recognise that both pronunciations exist without this "traditional workers' pronunciation" stuff?
 * Ecadre (talk) 11:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Specific reference
Is the "International" specifically referring to the International Workingmen's Association?--Pharos 05:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes Ecadre (talk) 11:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Copy right in France
The problem with the link to Le Monde is that you do not get the entire story just like that. The man who was ordered to pay for whistling the Internationale for seven seconds, explains himself here: Could this also be added as reference? There is no cabal. --Pan Gerwazy 08:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Having a look at the English version of the French law, it seems that official political events are free of copyright, so I suppose the Soviet Union not paying to De Geyter may not be such a scandal after all. I also see a reference to "forced heirs" and ayant droit claiming more money from their copy right agency when the author was declared "mort pour la France" so I suspect that the extensions (in reality 4 years and six months for the first world war and eight years and four months for the second) may only apply for immediate heirs still alive now - considering how old De Geyter was when he died, I doubt any children of his are still alive. So that may explain why a court in 2004 said the extensions did not apply.(Ok, OR - I could not find anything on what the litigation is about)

However, I find it rather silly (one could even call it ironic ...) to have a chapter on copyright which does not discuss the problem Pierre De Geyter had to affirm his copyright during his lifetime. If no one objects, I will put something here.Pan Gerwazy 11:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I have read your provided external source and added it. The current French law seems to copyright works without registrations. Speaking of the Soviet Union not paying De Geyter, I am unsure of internationally cross-honoring copyright at that time. As we have recently celebrated New Year, I can name only four countries still copyrighting De Geyter's melody per commons:Template:PD-Internationale: France, Cote d'Ivoire, Colombia, and Mexico. The first two speak French and the other two speak Spanish.--Jusjih (talk) 02:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. After some prevarication, I have decided to add a small chapter anyway. Others may decide to shorten it.--Paul Pieniezny (talk) 11:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Continued use in Russia
It seems that this song is the official song of the Russian communist party--their website reference here (kprf.ru). 202.89.155.120 (talk) 10:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I happen to know the Russian version given here is the one used when it was the national anthem. The original version had "Это будет последний" (this will be the last ...) in the refrain instead of "Èto yest' nash" (switch from future to present, and introducing "our", very normal things to do with a national anthem). What version are they using now? I suppose they did not change it into "Èto byl nash" ("this was our" )? Er, that was a joke, of course, but I think we should carefully note which version is sung now after the fall of the Soviet Union, since the original may agin get into fashion. --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 14:57, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, I had a look and of course 'tis the official Soviet version. We have a problem now. The Russian version that we have here, does not really exist. Either we put the original of Kots, 1902 with "èto budet" or we put the Soviet (and KPRF) version with six stanzas and "èto jest". To think that this version has been here such a long time without anyone noticing... Oh, and my source for "budet" is an old school Soviet encyclopaedia: --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 15:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

raised clenched fist
Someone should upload a photograph of the raised clenched fist gesture. I will try if the opportunity arises. – Kaihsu (talk) 17:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

"Pizza" vandalism in English lyrics
Some vandal has replaced certain words in the English lyrics of the Internationale on this page with the word "pizza." It is inserted about once in each stanza. Someone who has the original version should revert the page to show the correct lyrics. 75.0.145.10 (talk) 13:27, 24 May 2008 (UTC) Jeff C.
 * An anonymous editor did it in this series of edits. If you have an interest in learning how to do this then check out the history page, found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:The_Internationale&action=history and at the top of every page. Also check out these guides in dealing with vandalism and reverting changes. Thank you for bringing this up, MrZaius  talk  13:31, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Bengali lyrics
As the Bengali lyrics added by 59.93.210.73 on 7 November 2006 are not readable, I have removed it for now. It should be added here only if someone can write something encyclopedic for it since this article is not of multilingual Wikisource. However, please also note that we can claim fair use here but not at Wikisource in case a lyric is copyrighted.--Jusjih 16:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC) (admin here and at English Wikisource)

I will remove the Bengali lyrics, as there seems to be no encyclopaedic reason for them to be included. My reasoning (after a brief look at old discussion pages) is the following:


 * The English lyrics should be on the page because this is the English Wikipedia
 * The Internationale was originally written in French, so this justifies French lyrics
 * The song used to be the anthem of the Soviet Union so this justifies Russian. In theory this would justify all official USSR languages, of which there are quite a few, but in practice, Russian was the most widely used version.  The article National Anthem of the Soviet Union also has only Russian lyrics.
 * I can't judge the case for the Chinese lyrics. The song probably figured prominently in the early history of People's Republic of China, it could perhaps have been the anthem in the early days of the Long March.  However,  there's a fair bit of encyclopaedic content accompanying the translation.  Maybe it merits a different article, but it certainly doesn't merit deletion.

Now, if the Bengali version serves as the anthem of eg. one of the Indian states, or if it played an important role in the history of the song, a case could be made for it to be included here. However, there is no information provided on this, so there's no way to justify why this version would make it in as opposed to any of 80+ individual language versions that exist in the world. These were consigned to WikiSource back in 2004.

Miranche 18:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure of this but out of all the Indian languages, probably the first translation of The Internationale was in Bengali. Also, the first true countrywide revolutionary communist movement in India, was launched in Naxalbari,a village in West Bengal, from where it gets its name i.e, the Naxalite Movement. As this movement continues to grow and challenge the ruling classes, I think that it is significant enough to have the Bengali lyrics in Wiki.

-Srijon


 * The lyrics themselves do not constitute encyclopedic content; you can refer to the past discussions in the article, which agreed to move single language versions (of which there were many) to WikiSource. I know that the Naxalite movement is currently very important, but a large number of other important socialist, communist and anarchist movements since 1871 were inspired by the song.  From the encyclopedic point of view, there's nothing special about a movement happening now, so if this were sufficient to include Bengali lyrics, very many others, for example Spanish (because of Spanish Civil War, and Cuban Revolution), German, Hungarian, Tagalog etc. would need to be included as well.


 * Most importantly, Wikipedia follows WP:NPOV, so whatever our personal feelings may be, the fact that the song inspires a movement is absolutely not a sufficient reason to post the lyrics *at all*.


 * As for your second argument, that Bengali was the first Indian translation of the Internationale, it is true that there are very many Bengali speakers and that India is the world's second most populous country, so you could build a case around this. However, in order to justify it, you would need to (1) make sure that this indeed was the first translation and (2) accompany the lyrics with at least an outline of the history of the song in India.  Still, there are more Spanish speakers than Bengali speakers in the world, and Internationale as a song, I think, has made more history when sung in Spanish than in Bengali; I may be wrong.  In spite of this, the Spanish translation is not included; it would overburden the article.  It would *maybe* make sense to have a separate article called The Internationale in Spanish, or The Internationale in Bengali.  Even if this were the case, though, the separate article would *absolutely* need to include some encyclopedic content, not only song text.


 * Please let me know what you think... You can leave the message on my talk page.
 * Miranche 06:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No reply in 3 days... Erasing Bengali lyrics again.
 * Miranche 19:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I added the Chinese lyrics with encyclopedic information here. Based on your suggestion, I may consider a separate article called The Internationale in Chinese. As this article is 31 kb long now and I have found three different sets of Chinese lyrics, splitting may be needed, but I would like to remind the proposed merger of The Internationale in Indian Languages to this article. In addition, copyrighted lyrics without a GFDL-compatible license might be usable here with fair use when accompanied by encyclopedic information, but please do not copy them to Wikisource where fair use is impractical and thus forbidden.--Jusjih (talk) 02:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC) (admin here and on Wikisource)

：：While Bengali lyrics are gone, I would like to mention several other language versions showing up. While I have found the most common Chinese lyrics having been used as the national anthem of the Chinese Soviet Republic, I will not merge The Internationale in Chinese back here as this page is already too long.--Jusjih (talk) 03:35, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

This article is a mess - Too many language versions!
Yes, it's a mess and unfortunately I don't have time to fix it now...

For starters, the English language section includes two versions of the song now, the 6-stanza and the 2/3-stanza, and one of the 3-stanza versions is a shortening of the 6-stanza one.

More importantly, I see that different language versions are proliferating, and I think it has been decided in discussions a loong time ago that this is inappropriate. The Internationale lyrics are among the most translated in history, comparable perhaps to The Lord's Prayer, and this article cannot fit all the different versions. The three languages it makes sense to keep here are French, the original language, English, the language of this Wikipedia, and Russian, as the Internationale used to be the anthem of Soviet Russia and USSR. For all others it makes sense to start separate Wikipedia articles, especially if accompanied by encyclopedic historical information about the translation. Lyrics without any extra info are more appropriate for Wikisource. This applies to the 6-stanza English version as well.

I've had a couple of discussions about this with users who had put in the Chinese (here and here) and Bengali lyrics (here and here) last year.

Miranche (talk) 01:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that only French, Russian, and English versions should be highlighted here. Other language versions with any encyclopedic information should be split into other articles. I already split Chinese versions. For the English versions, I am thinking of how to clean up the mess. Meanwhile, I am waiting for Billy Bragg regarding what kind of copyright permission he is willing to give. I have his email allowing us to have his modern lyrics here, but he has yet to decide whether to release then under GFDL. I will keep you posted.--Jusjih (talk) 02:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have removed the 6-stanza English set that is merely duplicate of a Wikisource article The Internationale. I plan to add the South African version with some encyclopedic information, but without information on when and by whom it was published, I cannot accept it on Wikisource.--Jusjih (talk) 03:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC) (Wikipedia and Wikisource admin)
 * Based on the idea to be bold but not reckless while encyclopedic content must be verifiable, I have blanked several unsourced language versions. As the Greek and Turkish versions have English translations, perhaps they should be split while they do not seem to be historically notable.--Jusjih (talk) 03:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Red Rose (Socialism).svg
The image Image:Red Rose (Socialism).svg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --06:03, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Hindi/Bengali Lyric pages
Someone has created The Internationale in Bengali, The Internationale in Chinese, The Internationale in Filipino, The Internationale in Indian Languages, and The Internationale in Hindi. These are basically lyrics pages, and per the above discussion belong in WikiSource. Should they be AFD'ed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TallNapoleon (talk • contribs)
 * I am against deleting The Internationale in Chinese that I split while it does have encyclopedic information. I am disinterested in other language versions.--Jusjih (talk) 03:20, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

English lyrics
I have found http://home.planet.nl/~elder180/internationale/engels.htm showing even more English lyrics. While older ones may be in the public domain, newer ones, notably Billy Bragg's modern version, may still be copyrighted. While copyrighted ones may be usable as fair use here, please DO NOT copy them to Wikisource where fair use is extremely limited.--Jusjih 04:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The SubGenius parody was funny! Good find! (I've been to that site before, but didn't see that parody!) -- Миборовский U 04:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * To be more specific, English Wikisource has expressly prohibited fair use and noncommercial licenses, so please do not bother adding newer lyrics like Billy Bragg's modern version there without evidence of proper licensing.--Jusjih 09:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * How notable is the Bragg version? I've never encountered it anywhere else, and it doesn't seem particularly relevant. Is there a reason why it is included? Leushenko (talk) 01:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * As we have articles for Billy Bragg and The Internationale (album), I would simply presume his modern lyrics notable. I have recently emailed him to ask if he would like to release the copyright of his modern lyrics under GFDL, but I have received no answer yet. I have to get his permission in order to safely post them in Wikisource. If I do get his answer, I will keep you posted.--Jusjih (talk) 02:17, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Billy Bragg has told me that he will allow his modern lyrics here, but he does not understand what GFDL is and does, so I am going to explain it to him. I will forward the emails when ready.--Jusjih (talk) 23:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * For Billy Bragg's modern lyrics, I have finally got the copyright permission request replied and forwarded to OTRS. An OTRS volunteer told me the permission not compatible with GFDL while I heard "I hope anyone who uses it commercially will give us some money, and that if anyone records the song it will have to be cleared through normal channels." As we may claim fair use right here, he has told me that he would not bother logging the ticket number here, which is Ticket#2008110810002939 that I have in my email. commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/Image:Sea_Green_Singers_Internationale_Levellers_Day_Burford_20080517.ogg shows a deleted video on Commons before I got the copyright reply, so it was de-linked from this article. I will not bother trying to claim fair use for that video singing Billy Bragg's modern lyrics.--Jusjih (talk) 05:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Links to other language wikis
There's quite a few links to articles in other languag's wikis. I'd fix it if I had the time. 86.25.6.243 (talk) 23:15, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Java Overlay
Im not wiki savy enough to know how to fix and I dont want to mess up the formatting trying to do it but the java app link overlays the third column of the british version. Probably an easy fix... thanks--Bradjohns (talk) 17:30, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Deliberate mistranslation of anti-religious lines etc.
Someone saw fit to replace the English translations of the French line "Pour que le voleur rende gorge" with a something along the lines of "For the LORD is our only God." They also replaced the translation of the Russian line "Ни бог, ни царь и ни герой" with a similar piece of theistic propaganda. I have provided more accurate translations of both. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theetemenanki (talk • contribs) 01:28, 8 December 2008 (UTC)