Talk:The Lady and the Unicorn

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Anonymous Reply to Ian Ison
Im sorry but I just cant take you seriously, you mention Prieur de Sion which is by now well known as a pataphysic surrealist joke and fraud, and cite it as a real organisation. I have no problem with the alernative versions of christianity as a research subject but your conclusions are at best layed on shakey grounds. I do question the theory of the tapestries as a secret correspondence of love. It's way to ineffective to correspond with large tapestries that take several years each in the making. There are easier and cheaper ways to communicate in secret with. You will have to do a better job in presenting that paper of yours, you even lack a comprehensable abstract and the introduction is just a mess and where is your presentation of methodology? I saw your CV, I'm sure you do a good job as a computer programer but as an accademic and historic reseracher you will need to do quite a lot to create better quality work. Start off by at the very least follow either MLA, MHRA or Harvard style guides for accademic papers.

Ian Ison replies on the Theory of the Tapestry Texts relating to Henry of Anjou and Eleanore
If you read my words closely, you will see that I describe the designs as dating to the earlier period. Modifications to bring them up to date with current fashions etc at the time of weaving would only be normal. The millefleurs background seems to be an irrelevancy to the narrative, though it certainly seems to have given the rabbits something to chew over.

I have, since my original posting, come to the conclusion that some dating conflicts could only be explained by placing part of the narrative in the era around the time of their weaving. This adds the complication that I should either recant my original claim (which I do not) or ask the reader to accept that additional narrative, relevant to the needs of the sponsor of the actual weaving, has been added to that already present. I believe that sponsor was René d'Anjou and that he was also courting an Eleanore (in this case, d'Aragon - mother to the famous d'Estes - see the commentary for his association with her mother's family). There seems to be a deliberate display of the parallels between his own intended elopement to found a new, powerful claimant branch of the Aragonese royal house and the earlier one I highlight.

Furthermore, I believe that this failed courtship is represented briefly in Shakespeare's 'Merchant of Venice'. Why? Because "Shakespeare" is largely a reworking of d'Este court plays written about the family. Frankly, I am appalled at how much this brilliant family's work has been attributed to later owners - often purloiners. I am even able to cite the ancestral links between Renée de France-d'Este and her sister Queen Claude, friend in her youth to Elizabeth i's mother and aunt, Ann and Mary Boleyn, and a long-term correspondent. Also, the French Angevin descent of Claude, last independent Duchess of Brittany, Queen Anne's daughter.

It is my understanding that the Le Viste armorial claim stood in the male line only for Jean, the wealthy parvenu, whose daughters also used it. I do not discount his existence - only that he would have actually been involved in these events as anything other than a pawn.

If you read the jesting English-French-Gaelic description of the heraldry as I do in my analysis of the tapestry known as Le Viste, you will see that it describes a bad case of Vnrl Dss, with the lady standing accused. There are some great jokes here. Perhaps M. Le Viste didn't 'get' any of them. Gaelic has given me many key words in the texts and seems to date back to ancient links between the Druidic schools of the Bards and the early Troubadours.

I find it annoying that entrenched religious views are clouding the vision of research historians as regards the suppression of all knowledge of unorthodox religion in Medieval and Renaissance Europe. It is wicked to suggest that only the persecuting institution's official histories should be accepted on the story of the Cathars (or Gnostics, if you will).

Please Properly Research Before Posting Unfounded Theories
Eleanor of Aquitaine and Henry of Anjou (later Henry II of England, Duke of Normandy, etc) were married in 1154, over 300 years before the creation of this tapestry series. Aside from scientific testing, the tapestries can be dated to the late 15th century, based on the millefleurs designs and the style of the dress.

The three crescents argent on a bar sinistre azure, are the heraldic arms of the Le Viste family, of which the patron, Jean Le Viste, was a member.

1.144.111.63 (talk) 04:57, 6 February 2018 (UTC) An article in the Daily telegraph by Troy Lennon (Australia) mentions that people once believed the numerous crescents in the tapestry had an Islamic origin, but then says that crescents were used by many European households in their escutcheons. The crescents do not symbolize the moon, they symbolize the 'tressures' (treasures) worn by the women of the court of Charlemagne (Karl der Grosse). These were golden head ornaments in the form of a semi-circle, a tiara designed to hold their tresses in place. The use of the crescents in heraldry are supposed to represent a connection with Charlemagnes' court. Probably their inclusion in the tapestry is meant to imply nobility. This association is also connected to the Flemish nobility which was believed to have originated with Charlemagne. http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/distinctive4.html

Hidden history and esoteric meanings
I would very much doubt about all those esoteric/hidden meanings mentioned below. And the link does not work btw. (Now e-mended - Ian Ison)

I would propose for the last picture (A Mon Seul Désir) the parallel from the Aberdeen Bestiary -> The head, caput, is the principal part of the body and gets its name because all the senses and nerves take, capere, their beginning from there, and the entire source of energy springs from it. It is the seat of all the senses. In a certain way it takes the role of the soul itself [my bold], which takes thought for the body.

(Aethralis 09:56, 27 September 2005 (UTC))

The true history of the lady of the unicorn
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ian_ison/Y%20Is%20I%20Web/la%20Dame%20a%20la%20Licorne%20Tapestries.html

Their design was the secret courtship correspondence between Eleanor of Aquitaine when Queen of France and Henry of Anjou who sought her hand. To achieve this exchange they used the intermediary Villon, an ancestor of Francois Villon who brought the designs to the attention of Good King Rene.

That they are far more important than even this snippet of information reveals will be seen when it is shown that she reveals herself in the first tapestry to him (le Desir) to be a Cathar Pure. Furthermore, that the mysterious armorial used throughout appears to be a clandestine reference to the Priory of Sion deepens the intrigue.

Puns, anagram, triple entendres, papal bribery - even grave-robbery - it's all there.

Some confirmation comes from the apparently associated punning Provençal poem by the Comtessa de Dia titled "A Cantar m'er".

Mary Tudor - Suffolk, the mysterious Lady of The The Lady and the Unicorn ?
You will see, with The Lady and the Unicorn, we are far from the simple interpretation usually known of the Five Senses !

The tapestries of The Lady and the Unicorn were woven for Antoine Le Viste, perhaps in Brussels, Tournai or Bruges.

They can be the work of the painter Jean Perréal, known as Jehan of Paris.

The mysterious Lady is Mary Tudor, third wife of Louis XII and sister of Henry VIII, who was the queen of France from August to December 1514.

The second woman is Claude of France, wife of François 1st.

The six tapestries, currently visible in the Museum of the Middle Ages and the Thermal Baths of Cluny in Paris, part of a series of eight tapestries, tell various episodes of Mary's life in France.

My interpretation is the result of a deep, meaningful and serious examination of all the details which, for some people, had gone unnoticed or were never considered with enough rigour.

I would be very happy to read your remarks and your suggestions about my interpretation : please, write me on : jacky.lorette@laposte.net

1- The Taste : Mary, queen of France, sends jewels to her brother. The supposed candies and fruits are pearls.

2- The Hearing : Louis XII died in the night of December 31, 1514 to January 1, 1515. Mary (called White Queen) has been locked up for 40 days in the Hotel of Cluny, the current museum where the tapestries are exhibited, a time to know if she is pregnant of the late king. Let us notice that Mary and the unicorn are pregnant. To save time until the arrival of Charles Brandon or to get revenge for the attitude of Louise of Savoy, Mary simulated a pregnancy by dissimulating on her belly fabrics of linen.

3- The Sight : Mary fears her return to England. To persuade her brother Henry VIII, she sends him the "Mirror of Napoli" brought back with so many other treasures of Naples by Charles VIII, a diamond of very great value. She marries secretly, again at the Hotel of Cluny, Charles Brandon (that the unicorn represents), the duke of Suffolk.

4- The Smell : Mary is not queen any more, she loses her French crown. She removes one by one the French eyelets from her crown which she will replace by English roses.

5- The Touch n° 1 (the Tent - My only desire) : Mary waits in Calais for the boat to Dover. It is the moment for each one to formulate his desire, that of Mary, that of Antoine Viste, and why not that of the painter. Two remarks which indicate the achievement of a cycle : Mary wears a red dress like the one she wore on her arrival in Abbeville, the same dress as in the Taste and she puts in the jewel case the necklace that she wears in the Taste, at the very beginning of the series. The painter insists on showing that the French cycle of Mary is completed and that she finds her original purity back, without fault and sin.

6- Pavie - The Touch n°2 : Mary is not present on this tapestry weaved to evoke the anger of the financier and the painter against François the 1st after the defeat of the French army to Pavie in 1525. François the 1st, loser and prisoner in Madrid, is depicted under the lines of animals carrying a necklace or an obstacle. The coalition so appears : Henry VIII is the unicorn, Charles the Fifth is the lion, The "Connétable" of Bourbon is the Lady under the lines of his aunt in Athéna, Anne de Beaujeu, who was the one that Louis XII called with Mary when she came in France in 1515.

About ‘The Hunt of the Unicorn’ and ‘The lady of the Unicorn’ : http://pagesperso-orange.fr/jacky.lorette —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.24.8.204 (talk) 10:15, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

78.111.186.121 (talk) 16:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)====Add to Popular culture part====

The "Desire"part of the tapestry also appears in the "Clive Barker's Undying"video game http://www.undyingitalia.it/public/mkportal/modules/gallery/album/a_132.jpg