Talk:The Pretenders/Archive 1

Something
Incorporated lots of additional band info that was on The Pretenders (album).

This is still a bit disjointed, and has some stuff that may not be NPOV. SO it could some more cleanup.

Econrad 17:00, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I removed:


 * ", and her success paved the way for an entire generation of sexually forward, tough-minded female artists such as Pat Benatar and Joan Jett."

Pat Benetar and Joan Jett at minimum contemporaries of Chrissy Hynde (The Runaways debuted in 1976). Econrad 15:05, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Is supposed to be a "The" before the name "Pretenders"? Are they "The Pretenders" or just the "Pretenders"?--Lironos 12:36, 23 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Album covers have both formulations, but most radio announcers, newspaper articles, etc. use The Pretenders, so that's the right one for this article. Pretenders is redirecting to it, so everything's ok.   Wasted Time R 18:30, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As a result of Auto movil's edits, the number of things attributed in this article to unsourced "critics" went from 2 to 11. While Auto is an entertaining writer, the suspicion that these "critics" and Auto are often one and the same is hard to resist. Wasted Time R 18:48, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A lot of the current content violates NPOV (IMO), and is not 'encyclopedic' in style, and includes peacock terms. Again, IMO.

One example:


 * A common musicians' tale concerns the player who thought that the leather-clad bikers he encountered were tough, but who gamely mouthed off to the vocal-harmony band wearing matching suits. That musician ended badly. Moral: Fools often think it's the bikers who are the badasses, while it's really the matching-outfit, harmony-singing, pop music guys who are the dangerous ones. We'll return to this tale in one moment.

"We'll return to this tale in one moment"?

Econrad 19:53, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I've taken some of the worst of these instances out.  Wasted Time R 12:49, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Econrad, sectioning is a good idea but I would do it a bit differently. Have Early years, then Original band (including the singles before the first album), then Pretenders carry on (84-86 as you have it), then Pretenders resume (94-present). The idea is for the section titles to tell the story of the epochs of the band, which album titles don't quite get across. Also, I don't see a need for a separate Recent history section, as what's happening now is more of the same from the 94 resumption. What do you think? Wasted Time R 20:36, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed on all counts. Done.  Econrad 20:50, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I restored the years in the new section titles as I think it helps. Indeed I've added specific month and year dates for all the releases up through 1984, as I think they make the history better to understand, and some of the existing paragraphs were out of time sequence.  The Pretenders were one of the last bands to really consider singles, as opposed to tracks released as singles off albums, important, and I think now that comes across better.   Wasted Time R 22:08, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The band's 1st album is properly called Pretenders (no 'The'), and is shown that on the all major sources, and the album itself. 2 album pages existed, with and without the 'The'. I merged the 2, created a redirect, and fixed the links on all linking pages. Econrad 00:48, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, you're right, good spot.  Wasted Time R 01:00, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"As a result of Auto movil's edits, the number of things attributed in this article to unsourced 'critics' went from 2 to 11. While Auto is an entertaining writer, the suspicion that these 'critics' and Auto are often one and the same is hard to resist. Wasted Time R 18:48, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)"

I didn't see anyone jumping in when the article was filled with gross factual errors. If you want to go through my garage (or yours) and look up the 'critics say' cites in old NME, Creem, and Musician magazines, be my guest. If you can find one that's inaccurate according to relevant sources, you win ten bucks via Paypal Auto movil 04:30, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well. Of the 11 'critics' assertions in your version of the article, 6 still remain. Regarding the 5 that were pulled: So if you can find sources for some of your assertions, they can be put back in. Wasted Time R 12:26, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * surprising vs. riveting vocals – I simplified this to just riveting, no need for critics.
 * "leaving the original, critically revered (and much loved) Herefordshire Pretenders" – I think Econrad pulled this whole bit for being over-the-top prose. More important is that Hynde herself reveres the original band, a point I made by including her R&R HoF quote.
 * "'Middle of the Road', a song that attempted to recapture some of the group's earlier hard-edged sound (critics disagree that the attempt was successful)" – this one I really objected to. 'Middle of the Road' is a very popular song, it's played on the radio a lot, it gets a big reaction in concert, many fans think it's a great depiction of a person caught in cross-currents at a turning point in her life, and that it really rocks.  As for what critics thought, it was ranked the 14th best single of the year in the Robert Christgau year-end poll of lots of critics  in a year with a lot of stiff competition (and Learning to Crawl was 7th best album).  Sounds like critics thought the song was successful too.
 * "Critics have often expressed a wish that the music of the contemporary Pretenders could be as edgy and exciting as Hynde herself, with Hynde assuming the grande-dame status that Joan Jett has taken -- uncaring of former celebrity, working to potential no matter the scale." This sounds like a recent conclusion that should appear on Google, if multiple people are making it.  Searched but could not find.  I left in the first part, since it sort of makes sense, but changed critics to fans ('cause with you and me it's plural!), and pulled the part about Joan Jett, since it seemed subjective and spurious.
 * "Critics have enshrined the original Pretenders (along with Cheap Trick and others) as among the "last of the original 'great rock bands.'" " Again, sounds like a recent remark, needs sources, I couldn't find any.  My impression is that Cheap Trick doesn't have nearly the stature the Pretenders do, nor should they.

And to the more general point of your version of the article: Yes it corrected some blather in the prior version, and yes it introduced some excellent points, and yes it was entertaining. (I have a higher tolerance for 'entertaining' than many NPOV-obsessed WP editors; music articles that are dry recitations of album dates, song titles, and chart positions, will give no clue as to why the artist was so popular in the first place.) But, your version suffered from: Wasted Time R 12:41, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * losing the timeline in 1982-83: not making clear when Farndon died, not making clear when 'Back on the Chain Gang'/'My City Was Gone' was recorded and came out, and implicitly misattributing it to the McIntosh/Foster group
 * saying nothing at all about Hynde's look and appeal and role as a female rocker, which is just as silly in the other direction as the material that was there before your changes
 * introducing at great length an unsourced "musicians' parable" that didn't seem to apply (the Pretenders being right in between the two poles of that parable)
 * making your changes in about 150 separate edit-and-save's, making the history hard to navigate and diff's impossible (was your "Show preview" button missing those days?)

Well, never mind. Another editor has come in and tossed things further about, and some of what I wrote above no longer applies. Such is Wikipedia. Wasted Time R 14:29, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Changes
One thing you have to keep in mind is that the Pretenders were a British band, and concentrating on the US reaction to the records, critically and otherwise, gives a skewed picture.

Another is that critical consensus doesn't necessarily show up in the standard reference books -- the Christgau guides, etc. What you get in those books is what Christgau, or Dave Marsh, or Anthony DeCurtis (etc) thinks. The All-Music guide is generally more fair, but I worked as a rock critic for awhile, and it's sheer folly to rely on these books for anything but names, dates, personnel, and other dry facts. They're simply wrong much of the time. You can see this in the way the Rolling Stone Guide is rewritten every edition: The reviews are changed from top to bottom to reflect current tastes. You never get a sense of what a record meant at the time it came out, or how perceptions have evolved.

A third point is that it really gets dispiriting having female musicians parsed according to their 'sexuality' and looks. No matter what, there's a magnetic appeal to pointing out that Chrissy Hynde (for instance), or Chan Marshall, or Corinne Tucker are sex-sex-sexy -- while male musicians are evaluated in terms of their, you know, music. Maybe it's appropriate and maybe it isn't, but I don't think it was a glaring omission to leave out the fact that Hynde had bangs, etc. This is a woman who spent almost her entire early career wearing long-sleeved, high-necked outfits without an inch of extra skin showing, to avoid such things. Auto movil 17:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Regarding critics I agree, which is why I quoted the Christgau year-end poll, not his own guide. The poll surveys over 100 critics on both sides of the Atlantic, I believe.  Even this is no doubt skewed by cronymism and group-think, but it's about as good a metric as you'll get.  It rated Pretenders very highly and later omitted Pretenders II completely, which corresponds with your perception of critical opinion at the time.  So if this same poll rated "Middle of the Road" highly, I believe that's an accurate reflection of contemporary critical consensus.  And if you worked as rock critic, you have my sympathy :-)


 * Regarding female musicians you're obviously right there's a double standard. I just checked the David Bowie article and there's very little on his looks there (other than his eye accident), which is absurd since much of his career was based around his physical appearance.  Nevertheless, to ignore Hynde's gender is to ignore the elephant in the room.  And you don't have to dress like Britney Spears to be sexy ...  Wasted Time R 18:28, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm remembering that 'Middle of the Road' got a lukewarm reception in the UK weeklies, which might just speak to my biases in sourcing. But there wasn't much in the way of single reviews in the US at the time. My osmosis read on the single was that it was seen as slick, trying to recapture the flavor of the old band (to the point of having backup singers imitate Honeyman-Scott and Farndon's voices -- compare the backup vox with 'Brass in Pocket' or 'Private Life'). These things get blurry as time passes. The article is probably great the way it is. Auto movil 18:40, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Somehow, I don't think an exclusively "British" rock band would sing a song about the suburbanization of farmland outside Cleveland, Ohio (see "My City Was Gone"). While understanding the band's British roots is key, it's equally important to remember their American roots vis a vis Hynde. -- SwissCelt 15:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: current lead -- the performance charisma of the band came from Hynde; indeed, the lead should summarize the whole article and since it has always been Hynde's band (more so as time went on) it's silly to keep changing it to make it more "democratic". Find a citation that describes any other member's performance in a way that can be characterized as "charismatic", and I'll grant the point. Jgm 03:44, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why would you say that? That's a lot of silly talk. 1) The lead is there to introduce the topic, not to summarize the article. 2) The original Pretenders were one of the tightest and best-regarded rock ensembles in the world. You might as well say, "The performance charisma of the Rolling Stones came from Mick Jagger, and unless you can prove otherwise using a cite with the word, 'charismatic,' I will not grant the point that the other members were important." 3) Watch the live videos. Auto movil 18:30, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, I didn't see the original band in concert, but I did see the McIntosh-Foster edition at Radio City Music Hall on 3 May 1984, and Martin Chambers was indeed charismatic. He kept driving rhythms going the whole show, and he had some kind of glitter that he was banging off his cymbals, and then towards the end he would let drumsticks fly off the cymbals and out into the audience.  I still think of it as one of the best full-on-energetic shows I've been to.  I even kept notes ... they came in to Sinatra's "That's Life" on the PA system, then opened with "I Hurt You" followed by "Message of Love" ... "Middle of the Road" is marked as a "rave-up!" [see, I knew it was good] ... closed the regular set with "Precious" ... the last encores were "Brass in Pocket" (Chrissie on hands and knees getting roses from the audience), Hendrix's "Room Full of Mirrors", and "Tatooed Love Boys".  Total playing about 2 hours.  Wasted Time R 04:08, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's silly to try for accuracy in the lead, which is indeed intended to be an overview of the entire article, not the first part of a history (see ).  The point of the sentence is to describe what they were noted for (that is, why we care); calling for a citation is a way of trying to establish this, and thus the accuracy of the sentence.  Energy, skill, "tightness" -- all good things but not the same as "charisma".  C'mon, read any review of the band and tell me what aspects of the performances they talk about most -- it's clear to me that, as great as the original band was, The Pretenders -- especially as a general statment spanning the entire history of the band -- are notable for the charisma of Hynde.  Jgm 16:58, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sigh. Ok, if you want to get pedantic, then I insist you summarize the article in the first paragraph, like you said. Make sure to get everything in there.

Also, you must justify focusing on 'charisma' above songwriting, musicianship, tonality, performance, and other factors, and then produce a citation saying that Hynde "provided the charisma" in the band, beginning in its first incarnation. "Read any review of the band" is not a citation.

Kidding aside, I suggest writing an article on Hynde. This is an article on the band, 'The Pretenders.' Auto movil 23:12, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've added "[numerous personnel changes ...] with Hynde as the sole constant" at the end of the intro. This should make it clear that it has always been Hynde's band, without detracting from the merits of the original lineup. Wasted Time R 18:47, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"The" should be removed from all instances. The band's name is "Pretenders" withtout "The".


 * Says who? There are many album covers that use the "The".  See http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002KZQ or http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004YL2X or http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002LAA, for example.  Other reference sources such as All Music Guide and the Rolling Stone Record Guide list them under The Pretenders.  The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame lists them under The Pretenders: http://www.rockhall.com/hof/inductee.asp?id=2346.  Yes, there are also some album covers that omit the "The", but overall, the "The" usage seems to be the most common, and the one that should be used here.    Wasted Time R 13:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

This is untrue. The original edition of the first album, "Pretenders", in the UK, had a fan club address under the phrase "Write to The Pretenders:". The name also comes from The Platters' song, "The Great Pretender", with the "Great" omitted. It's always been The Pretenders. ~ G Pearce, 14:47, 18th September 2006 (GMT)


 * I agree that the "The" should stay. Someone's probably being coerced by iTunes, which omits the "The" in the metadata for all their songs.  I just edit the files to add it back in.  68.230.134.223 (talk) 05:00, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be some info about "If There Was A Man", part of the soundtrack of "the living daylights"?

and tags from:  20:12, 14 August 2006 Mdbrownmsw (Far too many unsourced opinions...)

"Hynde's subsequent attempts at continuing the Pretenders never recaptured the Herefordshire band's original intensity."

Sez who? I've removed this silly statement, as it's strictly POV.

Central?
Is there any way to make the figures in the table central for presentations sake as much as anything thanks..

Anglo-American
Is this term clear? its makes them sound like they're a white power band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.96.160.34 (talk) 20:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I am removing this term unless someone can justify its inclusion. --Driscoll (talk) 22:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Weasel words
About 'Brass in Pocket', the artice says: "the last regarded as a somewhat tame and commercial song compared to the rest of the band's early output, which nonetheless cracked the American market for the band". Regarded by whom? Who thinks or thought this? I am removing it. APW (talk) 06:05, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 15:57, 1 May 2016 (UTC)