Talk:The Price Is Right/Archive 3

Move
I have moved the The Price Is Right article to The Price Is Right (1972 US version) because of the following reasons: Thank you. Kramden4700 01:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It is confusing, as there are many versions.
 * It is very short sighted to assume that everyone that reads Wikipedia is an American, so don't assume that the reader is an American. An added bonus is that American readers may find out about the other versions they didn't know existed.


 * Oppose. Well, I would have hoped to discuss this before the move was made. Even though there are several versions, I believe the current U.S. version deserves primacy simply based on its ubiquitousness. All other versions (except one) are spinoffs of this one, so those should be disambiguated. The original version, although popular in its own right, has been surpassed by the current version. Rather than list the entire rundown in a DAB line, the otheruses template would perhaps be more appropriate. Also, the "1972 version" is correct by standard, but it leads to "reambiguation," or confusion that this is not the current run of the program. Therefore, while technically correct, it should be moved back to avoid confusion. &mdash;Twigboy 04:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Support. It would be a good idea to move the TPIR article to The Price Is Right (1972) since there is more than one and replace it with the disambigation page that was up last night. That seemed to work quite nicely here and it seemed to be a more sensible renaming and distribution of the articles that someone who would know next to nothing about the show would find useful, especially if they were not from the US. In fact I feel that having the US version of the show the most prominant violates the WP:NPOV guidelines, specifically violating the Nationalistic bias point. I love the irony of stating this fact on the Fourth of July, but the United States is not the centre of the universe and Americans don't own and operate Wikipedia. Consistant naming, and maintaining the NPOV are needed and the unsourced, poorly written TPIR related articles really need massive rewrites to give context and understanding for those who don't know the show instead of being some sort of fanboy heaven where violations of WP:OWN seem to be the norm. Rekarb Bob 16:50, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * OK please move the TPIR article to The Price Is Right (1972) then. Kramden4700 19:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose Most people ARE going to search for the current American version over the various other incarnations. --CFIF (talk to me) 19:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Rekarb Bob makes a very good point about how there are people who are not Americans who may be searching and how that Wikipedia is international which means there are billions more non-Americans than Americans which the WP:NPOV thing he mentioned about "nationalistic bias" makes sense. Kramden4700 20:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Doubt it. --CFIF (talk to me) 20:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think someone in England or Australia would be searching for the American version of The Price Is Right. It is short sighted to say that most people are searching for the American version unless you say most people in the United States are searching for the American version and last time I checked there were more non-American people in the world than Americans. Kramden4700 21:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * CFIF is obviously taking a very short sighted view of things, which is sadly typical of my fellow Americans. Assuming that the American version of anything it what most people among the billions in the world are searching for clearly violates the WP:NPOV guidelines, specifically violating the Nationalistic bias point and additionaly violates most of the points listed at WP:CSB - simply put the American point of view is not a netutral point of view. The article as it stands now violates WP:NPOV as it seems to assume that people know at least what the show is and have at least seen it. The article as it stands now, as much of Wikipedia does, has an American bias, which the editors of this article and related articles simply don't even see they have. CFIF and others who assume that most people would search for the American version simply proves this unspoken default bias. Given the chance, the bias needs to be removed as it will not only make Wikipedia have more of a neutral point of view, but may even educate Americans that our country is one of many and we have to get along with people from other places. One step towards greater global peace and understaning is to be more inclusive and take the chance to educate. The American user should find the disambguation list of The Price Is Right, as it will be the most neutral option and will remind them that there are things outside of the United States, something that is really needed, now more than ever. Rekarb Bob 15:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Support I am in favour of anything that does not make American things the most important. I being British decided to look it up today to see something about our version and found the bloody American version being lord and master of all. That is quite wrong and bloody nationalistic. Bloody Americans think they own the internet, but it is not true! If you would read the WP:NPOV rules you shall see you are in violation of them with since you insist that the bloody American programme is the only one anyone could be searching for. BLOODY STUPID! Ameri-CentricPatrol 00:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Then, with all due respect, perhaps you could create a page detailing the British version of TPiR (update, just about 10 minutes after posting this message, I saw a page applying to the British version (Briguy52748 21:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC))). Regarding this whole worldwide dispute argument, I saw an argument on the Talk:Yearbook page that made a lot of sense:

I would think that each article of this more-or-less local/regional type would necessarily have the orientation of the person who first posts it. As people from other places expand it, we all will get a broader view of the subject.

I think the same thing will happen over time with the TPiR page. People who do not see a page dedicated to their version will create one suited to their specific version, place a link on the main page that's been proposed by Aussie Evil (see below) and move on. Briguy52748 21:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)]]


 * Oppose I'm not saying no one here has a point, but Twigboy is right in saying that all other versions of the show are spin-offs of the current American versions (except for Bill Cullen's and the versions that were spin-offs of it). Furthermore, this doesn't seem to be the standard way to handle articles for prominent game shows with international versions.  I looked up the pages for Wheel of Fortune, Jeopardy!, Millionaire, and $ale of the Century.  Wheel and $ale handle the issue the same way the Price article currently does -- a page for the original version (and it should be noted that for $ale, this is Australia's) with links to a page for foreign incarnations.  Millionaire has one overarching page with separate articles for both the original British version and the American version.  Jeopardy! simply gives a brief listing of international versions within the American show's article.  I'm not really sure why The Price Is Right should be so different from the rest of these. -TPIRFanSteve 01:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you are taking a very exclusive view of things. You really need to take an inclusive view here. Kramden4700 02:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am, just the way I would be if I were an Australian making such an argument about a prominent show that originated in Australia. I fail to see how it makes my point any less valid. -TPIRFanSteve 02:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Kramden: and what exactly does that mean? Lambertman 15:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose The game show originated in the US, and there is no reason that the main article should not focus on the current US incarnation. Any (and possibly all) other versions are listed as part of a proper use of Dablink at the beginning of the article (under the various tags that have also been added). Ryulong 02:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * WARNING Beware of sockpuppets and meatpuppets of TPIRFanSteve please see for some obvious suspects. I do think the move is a good idea, by the way. 69.249.26.137 02:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, for cripe's sake, not that again. I've never used sock or meatpuppets; Zinkin is a friend of mine, and the other two users are people I've never heard of and who I'm honestly suspicious of. -TPIRFanSteve 02:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Support This does seem like a good idea and this should prove I am not a sockpuppet of TPIRFanSteve. Plinky 14:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

1. Those who seem to favor no move seem to be American game show nerds (which accounts for the horrible state of the article), who of course would think the current American version would be the "be all and end all" on the topic and what someone outside the United States or Canada would search for. This violates Neutral point of view. To maintain the Neutral point of view not making the American version show up first in this case or any other cases mentioned should occur. 2. Disambiguate. This seems to be a textbook case as layed out on Disambiguation in the Page naming conventions section. A disambiguation page is better than a which gets lost on the jumbled, poorly organized, poorly laid out page. 3. Calm rational discussion is needed. Looking at the record of TPIRFanSteve, he seems hardly the one to listen to, as he has been accused of sock puppetry and Plinky seems to be one of his socks. Ameri-CentricPatrol seems to be one who hates all things American and this should be taken into account. Wrath of Roth 15:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Seems to make sense from an internationalist point of view. Valid points are made on both sides, but I really think the following points are valid:
 * Of course, he's actually not a sockpuppet -- not that anyone's ever going to believe that, I don't think. It's becoming increasingly clear that you're guilty until proven innocent around here, regardless of official site policy, and since I can't prove he isn't me, this just doesn't look like it's gonna go away. -TPIRFanSteve 16:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Um, Mr. Roth... Did you happen to notice that the person you have just accused of being a sockpuppet of TPIRFanSteve has voted AGAINST him in this very discussion? Lambertman 15:22, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. However I was using this as evidence. Also, Plinky says -this should prove I am not a sockpuppet of TPIRFanSteve. So one could assume that he is voting against to make one think he is not a sockpuppet. Wrath of Roth 15:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * If one used a sockpuppet to cancel out his own vote on a subject he is interested enough in to make it part of his Wikiusername, then they wouldn't quite grasp the "sockpuppet" idea, would they? Lambertman 15:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It would make sense if one was to claim that the person wasn't their sockpuppet to have the sockpuppet oppose them making it appear that it was actually another person. 209.137.173.69 16:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Or maybe it's not a sockpuppet at all? Lambertman 16:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps he/she/it is not. Wrath of Roth 16:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Support The move seems like a good idea. We did a cover of the theme song with lyrics on our demo EP called Bob Barker is God. Love, Travel Plaza Babes 15:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Support per Rekarb Bob, as even though I am American, I know that the vast majority of people who use Wikipedia are likely from other countries, and may not necessarily be looking for the current US version. The way things are currently placed, as has been mentioned before, isn't exactly NPOV.  -- WC  Quidditch   &#9742;   &#9998;  15:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Not Yet Voting I see both arguments. Wiki shouldn't be US-centric if it can be helped, but this is a format which has originated from, and had overwhelmingly more episodes produced in, the United States. An article like the base one for Deal or No Deal (which I just got done editing by trimming out a lot of USA show trivia, in fact) could be nice, bringing over the info from The Price is Right Around the World, with DAB links for the US, UK and AUS versions, as well as any others that might have larger articles created about them in the future. However, I'm withholding vote at this time because I feel the USA version should at least be discussed first on such an article, as it is the original and the template from which all the other TPiRs have grown.  I would also support redoing Deal or No Deal so that the original Dutch version is moved to the top of that list. One final thought: I'm not big on identifying the current show as (1972). There must be a better way to signify this. Lambertman 15:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Neutral The current US version is the basis for international versions. I propose that the main TPIR article should be a list of international versions, with a page The Price Is Right (USA) taking the top.--Aussie Evil 20:18, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Your proposal makes a lot of sense Aussie Evil! Buckner 1986 20:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree with Aussie Evil, per Buckner 1986. That said, there seems to be a lot of hurt feelings, suspicion, etc. over not only this page, but several others related to TPiR. This page sorely needs a lot of work in general, and I'm not talking NPOV either; I'm thinking of presentation in general. Some good suggestions have been made in both this argument and in other sections above. Let's try some of those before we get bent out of shape, start accusing people of vandalism and sockpuppetry, etc. Briguy52748 21:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)]] (PS — Twigboy also seems to have a lot of suggestions that made sense — let's utilize some of his, please. Briguy52748 21:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC))
 * Agreed. Regardless of anything else, if an American user is searching for "The Price Is Right", he's probably looking for CBS's daytime show. -TPIRFanSteve 01:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * We should cater to the few billion other people in the world who are not Americans, Steve. Buckner 1986 07:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You didn't even read what I wrote, did you? I agreed with you. -TPIRFanSteve 14:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose I don't think it should be moved. The Price is Right was originaly the US version of the show. Everything that came after in other countries was as a result of the success of the show here in the 1972 version. I think if anything is redundant to have to classify it as the 1972 version as opposed to Bruce's Price is Right for instance. It just doesn't make sense. I mean most of the English Wikipedia uses will be looking for the American version. It should be the primary pop up when people just type in "Price is Right". There are many links that can get people to the other versions if that is what they are after. But I really think that seperating it when the main show started out as just this solo show (not including the Cullen years previously) is really dumbing down the importance of this show overall. The Bob Barker version is the basis for all other Price is Right's worldwide. Should we seperate Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune to each country version now as well when all other country versions came as a result of the successful and still current US version? I think its backwards logic. The other countries versions should be the ones you have to specificly seach for while the main version should come just as you type the name of the show. That's just my take on it. I definitely oppose this move and think we should be focusing more on fixing up the page then making an exact title for it. That is the least of this pages problems. PantheraLeo 22:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, there is a page for the Australian version of Wheel of Fortune. -TPIRFanSteve 01:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you sure you don't mean the 1956 version as well? Rekarb Bob 19:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Correct but type just "Wheel of Fortune" in the search and it will take you right to the American page. Which is the same for the Price is Right. So this is all a bit to do about nothing. This has nothing to do with American bias folks. This is just the main show that was created first. Believe me even me as an American .. I am not for nationality or country bias due to my own. But the show is based off this main one that the page takes you too. I think its fine as it is. We can't make everything to satisfy the countries of every single person. Like Steve says, there is an Australian Wheel, should the page go directly to that or go to a main page or a index page or is it fine as it is? It's fine as it is. Those in Australia that want to find their version can very easily. But the majority searching will want to know about the main show that started it all. Thats just my take on all of this. Just look at other game shows and see that is the same exact situation as it is here. The american shows came first and are the main focus but you can very easily find the shows that came as a result of the main one that you find. I don't see it as a bad thing or wrong in any way. PantheraLeo 02:48, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Wheel of Fortune is now a disambiguation page, which makes sense, since it is not just a game show. Rekarb Bob 19:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Absolutely oppose. Sahasrahla 16:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And why? Wrath of Roth 16:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * After reading all this, I Support this. When looking at pages like Deal or No Deal or Sale of the Century, those are to primary series pages with a little info and full articles of various countries versions at their corresponding pages. At this point, it would be a wise decision to do it this way and avoid having conflicts. -TonicBH 17:05, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - it just seems with so many versions, the regular The Price Is Right page should be a disambiguation or something similar. --Libertyernie2 15:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What is the next step here? And Support by the way. Kramden4700 22:27, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Note: I've released move protection from this article, as this has been a topic of some contention, be sure that consensus is in place for any moves. Regardless of that, CUT AND PASTE MOVES are NOT the solution, as they violate GFDL attribution requirements. —  xaosflux  Talk  22:06, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Tags
I do appreciate the interest taken in improving the article, but simply placing different tags like confusing and context without discussion is not much of a help. Seeing as the cleanup tag is already there, it would seem that the point of attention has already been made. There is an ongoing discussion on improving the article, and I think adding to the discussion is far more helpful that creating a bank of improvement tags at the top of the article. For those reasons, I am removing those tags, but please participate in the discussion. &mdash;Twigboy 04:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The former insertion of bias
Since the editor who formerly placed this template onto the article was banned because of his inflammatory username, and the actions that show that he was true to his user name, I had reverted the edits that had inserted the template. Recently, a user who contributed above warning people of TPIRFanSteve's supposed sockpuppets reverted my edit, and I changed it back. Unless another editor finds that this article is biased or has some NPOV violations, then perhaps the template has a place. Ryulong 05:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, the tag from WikiProject Countering systemic bias is much better. Rekarb Bob 23:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep in mind: This article is about the current version of the US game show. For other versions, see... Since this precedes the first word about the U.S. version, how is there any bias against international versions of the show? Perhaps we should add the confusing and context tags back in to make sure that the reader has to scroll to see any part of this article besides the title. I just wish that more contributors took as much interest in the cleanup tag and discussion I started, rather than the first four words in 22-point Helvetica.&mdash;Twigboy 00:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, OK, scratch my earlier comments. Let me start again. Twigboy is correct — the article starts with a disclaimer stating this article is about the US game show, and has links for others who want information about various international versions. Yes, this article does need cleanup (badly), and the suggestions of Twigboy and others re: cleanup are a good idea. My earlier statement about how many a Wikipedia article will, when first written, more often than not have the geographic bias from where it originated until edited by people elsewhere stands. I do not think the US bias tag is appropriate for this specific article. However, to make peace, I think a separate, world-encompassing article on TPiR is a good idea, with separate pages for specific versions; see the Deal or No Deal article for an idea. Briguy52748 12:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)]]

Why the tag?
Well I come to this article every once in a while and now there is a tag for "not representing a world-wide view", why? This article is about the US version and their are other articles for the other versions. 69.121.67.198 09:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

(Tag removed with the moving of the article.) &mdash;Twigboy 17:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Submitted for your approval
User:Lambertman/TPIR

I would propose if this is accepted that the current show be moved to an article titled The Price Is Right (US) rather than using the (1972) tag, as this will confuse anyone who doesn't realize how long the current version has aired. (1956), (1994) and any other US versions that end up with their own page in the future can be redirected from a DAB link at the top of the (US) page. (i do realize that it's not technically correct to have "United States (original version)" refer to the current show and not Bill Cullen's, but I think it makes the most sense from a reader's standpoint). Also, the current Template:The Price is Right template would need to be renamed with a similar (US) tag. I pity whoever wants to go through and make changes on the one hundred Pricing Game pages. Lambertman 16:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a good start. Certainly not perfect by any means, but then again, few Wiki pages get to be this way. Certainly, to satisfy those who have complained about the lack of worldwide focus will be soothed when it includes the fact that the TPiR article states that worldwide versions were spawned from and based upon the US version. There's other various changes that need to be made, but that's what I can think of right now.
 * Lambertman, you may want to visit the Deal or No Deal page to get ideas for improving this "worldwide view" article on the show itself; there's some great ideas there, and I hope they can be incorporated somehow. The CBS daytime version article, with the suggested changes by Twigboy, needs to stay; the show is a part of Americana culture, and all that's needed is a DAB link to the page and you'll be fine. I do not see any need for changes to the pricing game pages, however. For the most part, the games are played identically in the various international versions (except that in some countries, the car games are played for other prizes. And TPIRFan Steve is correct — those articles were written after watching episodes in which they were featured and fan sites; CBS may be "official," but they don't always get it right. Briguy52748 18:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)]]


 * Lets roll! --Buckner 1986 23:35, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Moved
I moved the article earlier and incorporated Lambertman's proposed general article into The Price Is Right so it is now a brief description of the idea for the show and a list of various shows around the world. I think that it will address the American bias issues, but still this article needs some major league clean up. Hopefully we can all work together to find a solution. Buckner 1986 00:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What do you propose? Briguy52748 15:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)]]