Talk:Thelema

James Lees, Nema Andahadna, Kenneth Grant
If nobody objects, I'm going to remove all references to these individuals. They're not notable people within Thelema at all. Valgrus Thunderaxe (talk) 23:22, 1 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I object. They or their systems have articles. They are indeed notable within Thelema, though disliked by OTO (which does not define Thelema)., what do you think? Skyerise (talk) 12:54, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Unused sources
The following are sources listed in the article that are not actually used (referred to). Putting them here in case anyone needs them later.



▶ I am Grorp ◀ 08:11, 15 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks for calling attention to those. The sources at the end in your list regarding the relationship between Thelema and Scientology were added by me years ago as references in-text. Obviously someone has removed the relevant text but for some reason left in the references. (I have not monitored this article for a long time.) I had long planned on adding a new section to the article about the immense influence that Thelema has had on religions, philosophies, and other movements and ideologies that came after the advent of Thelema. Those ideologies are as diverse as Wicca, Neopaganism, some variants of Satanism (which is unfortunate in my opinion, as, unlike Thelema, Satanism is a philosophy of narcissism, but I digress...), the New Age movement, 1960s counterculture, and the hippie movement, among many, many countless other ideologies and belief systems. One could potentially even argue that the modern gay rights movement wouldn't have happened without Thelema.


 * Thelema has also been argued by many scholars of Religion to have been one of many influences on the development of Scientology. (For example, it is a well-documented fact that the founder of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, was an early member of the O.T.O. and likely even knew Crowley personally.) This fact makes a lot of people very uncomfortable, both Thelemites who are afraid that this association will make people think that Thelema is a "cult", and Scientologists who are afraid that people will negatively associate Scientology with occultism. (The Church of Scientology officially denies that L. Ron Hubbard was ever associated with Thelema or Crowley, despite virtually undeniable evidence to the contrary.) I originally had a sentence or two in the intro of the article mentioning that Thelema had been an influence on the development of many diverse belief systems, Scientology among them. This angered some people, either people who thought it made Thelema look "bad" or people who thought it made Scientology look "bad", so I assume one of those such people removed it somewhere along the way but for some reason either intentionally, or more likely unintentionally, forgot to also remove the references.


 * My intention was always to create a new large section of the article, perhaps even an entirely new article, documenting the vast influence that Thelema has had on society and other religious movements, but years go by faster than I ever imagined they would and it is one of countless tasks that I intended to do but never got around to. And for the record, my position is to be neither pro- nor anti-Scientology, nor pro- nor anti-Thelema when it comes to Wikipedia. My intent is to neutrally, factually, and without bias document the vast and often hidden impact that Thelema has had on the course of history and society. It's truly remarkable just how many seemingly unrelated things in society and culture can trace their roots back to Thelema.


 * Writing the section--or hopefully an entire article--is still something I intend to do eventually. But for now, I'm just giving some backstory as to an explanation for at least part of that list of orphan references. I wonder if the other sources you listed may have become unused in the article for similar reasons: because they didn't fit with someone's personal bias/opinions/beliefs. Vontheri (talk) 23:11, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Proposed merge of List of Thelemites into Thelema
The list article is uncited (18 years!). It is short enough (without a TOC) to fit inside the Thelema article. Or simply provide a link to Category:Thelemites in the See-also section. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 08:18, 15 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Merge doesn't solve citation problem. Every single entry is cited in the linked article. Skyerise (talk) 12:59, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * You did a good job adding citations and/or citation-needed tags to each entry. Still not sure why it needs its own article. I cannot imagine it will ever grow. There are only 36 items on the list (10 still uncited). That's not a lot. Also, the letter section headings are distracting; it's a far more interesting list to just scroll through, not search. Below is a better rendition (if you put the # back to *; I used it to count the entries).   ▶ I am Grorp ◀  05:12, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Why would the list never grow? Vontheri (talk) 23:37, 24 February 2024 (UTC)


 * 1) Kenneth Anger (1927-2023), American underground experimental filmmaker, actor, and writer.
 * 2) Frank Bennett (1868–1930), Australian chemist.
 * 3) William Breeze (b. 1955), American writer and musician.
 * 4) Mary Butts (1890–1937), English modernist writer.
 * 5) Marjorie Cameron (1922–1995), American artist, poet, actress and occultist.
 * 6) Aleister Crowley (1875–1947), English occultist, ceremonial magician, writer, and founder of Thelema.
 * 7) Lon Milo DuQuette (b. 1948), American writer, lecturer, musician, and occultist.
 * 8) J. F. C. Fuller (1878–1966), Major-General in the British Army, military historian, and strategist.
 * 9) Karl Germer (1885-1962),  German and American businessman and occultist, OHO of OTO (1947–1962).
 * 10) Kenneth Grant (1924–2011), English ceremonial magician and advocate of Thelema.
 * 11) Lady Frieda Harris (1877–1962), English artist known for her design of Crowley's Thoth Tarot.
 * 12) Leah Hirsig (1883–1975), American schoolteacher and occultist, most famous of Crowley's Scarlet Women.
 * 13) Sara Northrup Hollister (1924–1997), American occultist and second wife of Scientologist founder L. Ron Hubbard.
 * 14) Christopher Hyatt (1943–2008), American psychologist, occultist, and writer.
 * 15) Augustus Sol Invictus (b. 1983), American far-right political activist, attorney, blogger, and white nationalist.
 * 16) Charles Stansfeld Jones (1886–1950), Canadian occultist and ceremonial magician.
 * 17) George Cecil Jones (1873–1960), English chemist, occultist, Golden Dawn member and co-founder of the A∴A∴.
 * 18) Richard Kaczynski (b. 1963), American occult writer and psychologist.
 * 19) Rose Edith Kelly (1874–1932), English wife of occult writer Aleister Crowley from 1903 to 1909.
 * 20) Francis X. King (1934–1994), English occult writer and editor.
 * 21) James Lees (1939–2015), English magician known for English Qaballa.
 * 22) Grady Louis McMurtry (1918–1985), American ceremonial magician and "Caliph" of O.T.O.
 * 23) Marcelo Ramos Motta (1931–1987), Brazilian occult writer and member of A∴A∴.
 * 24) Nema Andahadna (1939–2018), American occultist, ceremonial magician, and writer about the Ma'atian current.
 * 25) Victor Neuburg (1883–1940), English poet and writer.
 * 26) Noname Jane, American pornographic actress.
 * 27) Rodney Orpheus (b. 1960), English electronic rock musician.
 * 28) Jack Parsons (1914–1952), American rocket engineer, chemist, and occultist.


 * 1) C. F. Russell (1897–1987), American occultist and founder of the magical order G.B.G.
 * 2) Phyllis Seckler (1917–2004), American occultist and writer, and a lineage holder in the A∴A∴ tradition.
 * 3) Wilfred Talbot Smith (1885–1957), English occultist and ceremonial magician.
 * 4) Leila Waddell (1880–1932), Australian violinist who became a Scarlet Woman of Aleister Crowley.
 * 5) James Wasserman (1948–2020), American writer and occultist.
 * 6) Sam Webster, American writer, publisher, co-founder of the Chthonic Auranian Templars of Thelema and OSOGD.
 * 7) Jane Wolfe (1875–1958), American silent film character actress.
 * 8) Gerald Yorke (1901–1983), English soldier and writer.


 * Um, it's still a living religion. Why would you think the list would never grow? There are a number of living people on the list, and there are most likely articles that could be added if support were added to the relevant articles. I'm sorry you're distracted by the alphabet, but I see no reason to change the headings. Not sure why you are discussing it here rather than there. Skyerise (talk) 08:32, 16 February 2024 (UTC)