Talk:Theme from Star Trek

Lyrics
I have removed the lyrics as copyvio per WP:LYRICS. 23skidoo 16:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd just like to note that your edit comment "Wikipedia policy prohibits the use of copyrighted song lyrics" is not entirely true, and fair use of the lyrics depends on the circumstances, with some guidance on the very page you quote. However, in this case, the lyrics may indeed not be notable enough to warrant an inclusion, although I doubt we'd have legal problems if including them, as I doubt Snopes has by using them on their page, especially as we have an article here written about the theme and aren't simply reposting the lyrics. Note that there's no general rule against copyrighted lyrics on Wikipedia, just advise to judge the situation before removing something in order to avoid copyright paranoia. -- Northgrove 00:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There is a distinction to be made between citing an example from lyrics (like citing a passage from a book) vs. restating the entire lyrics. Just because another website might post the entire lyrics doesn't mean they are legally safe, just that nobody has sued them yet. But I don't see any harm in citing the first line or two from the lyrics, to give the reader of "flavor" of them. Wahkeenah 13:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Theremin
From the article: "It is also one of the best known pieces played on the theremin."

Does this mean it was played on the theremin in the actual series or by people covering the melody later? In my episodes it's quite clear that a woman sings the melody line and in the instrumental version, it sounds like the melody line is played by a string instrument. Davhorn 20:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I wondered about that too. I would slap a "cn" tag on it if I were you. The first year version was a straight orchestral instrumental. The second-third year version was obviously a female voice singing "ooh, ooooh, oo-oo-oo-oo-ooooh." And let's not forget the bongo drums that were in there someplace. I kid you not. Wahkeenah 20:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I did that, let's see if someone finds a reference. Davhorn 00:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sure Trekkers watch these pages frequently, so if there's no citation within a week or so, I would delete it. Wahkeenah 00:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I see you zapped it. It occurs to me that someone heard that female vocalist going "ooh-oooooh, ooh-ooh-ooh-ooh-ooh" and thought it was a theremin, even though the article clearly states it was a vocalist. That's technically known as "original research", if not pure speculation. As I've found from bitter experience, there can be a fine line between O.R. and "guessing". Wahkeenah 13:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's my guess as well. The old VHS tapes had worse sound quality compared to today's DVDs so that might have made it sound more nonhuman too. Davhorn 18:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I recall the first time I heard it, on the first run of the first episode of season 2, and how I didn't like it very well compared with the straight instrumental of season 1. However, there was no doubt in my mind even then that it was a human voice. Wahkeenah 18:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

(it's just a jump to the left...) If anyone wants to take the time to pursue this, Courage talks about this in the documentary. I don't have time to rewatch it right now, but I believe he said something about how he did a mix of instrumentals and vocals with the intent of creating something that sounded like neither, so that people would ask "what the heck is that?" But ( according to Courage) Roddenberry had them remix the female vocal way up, basically because he was a horn-dog. (Hey, I'm just reporting what he said -- you don't think Courage was bitter over the whole lyrics thing, by any chance?)

I don't believe there was any discussion of whether this remix happened in between seasons, or if there was any mention of a Theremin anywhere in there. I also don't have any of the episodes on tape, so I cannot personally verify the "first season instrumental, 2nd and 3rd vocal" statements made here; I'm trusting others are obsessive enough to be reporting this faithfully.--NapoliRoma 21:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, here's what Courage said:
 * "I wrote it for a marvelous lady named Loulie Jean Norman, plus a flute, Jack Cookerly's organ, and maybe a vibraphone. And the whole idea was to mix it in so that it would be a 'what is that that I'm hearing?' sound, you know. It came off fine—till Gene got his hands on it. He wanted to hear the girl more, because he was such a sex maniac, and so he had her sort of pushed up a little bit in the mix, and it sounded like a soprano solo after that."
 * So no theremin, and now you know what happened between seasons one and two.--NapoliRoma 18:45, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit mystified by this matter. There were definitely two versions of the theme used in season one episodes. There's the well-known orchestral version which appeared on most of the episodes (indeed, on *all* of the episodes in prints struck in the '70s, and possibly beyond). But - in the UK, and so I assume in the US too - some early episodes ('Where No Man Has Gone Before', 'The Naked Time', 'Charlie X', and possibly others) were originally transmitted with a different arrangement/mix. I used to have off-air audio recordings of those episodes taped from the BBC transmissions; if there are any surviving off-air tapes out there then it would be possible to confirm the use of this arrangement/mix. In this version the melody line (on both main and end titles) *appeared* to be played on a theremin or ondioline, or similar-type instrument. It *could* be, however, that this was actually, as others have described, a very dense mix of instrumentation and soprano (but it didn't sound like it). Also, as originally transmitted in the UK, 'Where No Man...' included the opening Shatner narration, but with this alternative theme arrangement. The first obvious use of a soprano in the Star Trek theme, as transmitted, comes with Season Two. 86.149.11.233 (talk) 11:03, 15 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Short of having a film of the actual recording sessions, I don't know if you can have any more canonical source than a documentary with the guy who wrote, scored and recorded the theme describing its instrumentation, which is what we have as a reference for this section of the article.
 * The above paragraph from August 7, 2007 is an exact transcription of what he said; you can watch it yourself if there's any doubt. (It's a great documentary; I actually do highly recommend watching it if you have the time.)
 * If you poke around a little on teh Google about Jack Cookerly, there are hints that "Jack Cookerly's organ" (which would be a great name for a band) may have been something a little more exotic than a Hammond B3 -- maybe something like an ondioline (which I hadn't heard of until you mentioned it -- interesting)? But it's very clear that Courage's goal was precisely to make this a very ambiguous, hard-to-figure out sound.
 * (There was a cue they used several times in TOS episodes when something kind of eerie was happening, or Kirk was being seduced by some scantily-dressed alien, which sounded almost but not quite like a theremin -- maybe that was Jack Cookerly and his organ, too? :-) --NapoliRoma (talk) 13:10, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Courage agreed to lyrics written without his knowledge?
I just did some rewriting in the article, some of which is based on an excellent viedoe documentary on Courage, which I recommend highly to anyone interested in such things -- see the links to Youtube clips in the article. This documentary is not in IMDB, which is surprising, given its quality.

However, I left one contradictory bit in, as I don't have the time at the moment to see what the correct answer is. Did Courage agree initially to the lyrics, or were they written without his knowledge? Or is it that he agreed to the lyrics being written and somehow missed the real intent, which was to snag half the royalties?--NapoliRoma 20:10, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Roddenberry wrote the lyrics without his knowledge, as far as I know, so he could get half of the royalties. Courage said what he did was unethical, but didn't pursue it further. Davhorn 21:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, kind of. The article slightly alludes to it, but basically he didn't do any more work for Star Trek because of this.  I saw a documentary where they said that Courage was also responsible for a lot of the rest of the score, and since he didn't come back, they had to just keep reusing what they had from the episodes he worked on.  So while he never pursued the matter legally angering Courage like this cost them.  Rifter0x0000 (talk) 17:53, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * According to Inside Star Trek, there was a clause in Courage's contract allowing for Roddenberry to write lyrics to the theme, which Courage didn't notice, until it came time for the money to be split. Roddenberry claimed to have discussed it in a letter to Courage later on, but Courage obviously didn't think too much of it at the time. The IDIC nonsense sounded somewhat similar in nature. WikiuserNI (talk) 19:50, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Category:Star Trek soundtracks deletion discussion
Someone is trying to delete the ctaegory Category:Star Trek soundtracks. Please go to the talk page, and try to keep this category in existence. Thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 14:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Please, some one add an audio sample!
I'm desperate to find out which is the Alexander Courage theme and which is Jerry Goldsmith's theme. From what I've heard, Courage's theme is always played when the title appears in the movies, but I'm not sure if Jerry Golsmith theme is the marh-like, sweeping theme. Its impossible to describe it in Wikipedia without an audio sample. Somebody, please upload it, so I can finally know the difference! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Surten (talk • contribs) 03:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If you watch the video tribute cited in this article, you can hear what Courage wrote; the most famous Courage-written element that has been used outside of the original series theme is the four overlapping held notes (A, E, G, B) followed by a French horn fanfare. The "march-like" theme is Goldsmith's, written for the first movie and later used as the theme for ST:TNG.--NapoliRoma (talk) 07:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that helps out a lot. Sorry for the spelling. --Surten (talk) 03:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)Surten

Versions
I just did an edit to try to remove some redundancies and contradictions. I'm basing this mostly on the Courage tribute video, and my main goal was to eliminate the "first it was electronic, then vocals were added" bits that contradicts his description. What Courage himself says is that the vocals were always there, and that there were no electronics (other than organ; definitely no theremin).

What I don't know is the nuances of what else may have changed after the "Roddenberry amps up the vocal" change made apparently starting with the eleventh episode in season 1. Based on what many people have added into the article, it sure seems like there might have been another change beginning at season 2, but I don't have any recordings of any of the episodes -- and more importantly, there are no reliable sources apparent on this. There is one article about the CBS remastering where the author states that in the original recordings the organ is punched up starting in season three, but this same article also talks about how the vocal was added in season 2, which contradicts Courage, whom I would consider to be the canonical source, at least about the very first recordings.

There may also be more to add about the CBS remastering. The article above says they recorded three versions. I think I was reluctant to add that to the article, since what the article reports as the remastering team's choices seems to contradict the timeline of the changes in the original episode theme versions. I don't know whether that's an error in reporting, or an error in what the team actually chose to do.--NapoliRoma (talk) 08:11, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Bit late, but agreed. I'm getting my information from Herb Solow and Bob Justman's book, Inside Star Trek. The vocals were there for the first season, then dropped to save money. WikiuserNI (talk) 21:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)


 * There seems to be some evidence that the "electronic" sounding version of the theme (no vocal) came out of the scoring session of August 19, 1966 for "The Man Trap" (Bond, Jeff, 1999, The Music of Star Trek, p. 33), and the sound, often assumed to be a theremin, is possibly an electric violin (Bond, 1999, p. 15). Unfortunately, a lot of the evidence cited for competing claims (re. vocal or no vocal, etc.) is reliant upon the memories of those involved, whether it be Alexander Courage himself, or Herb Solow and Bob Justman--and these memories don't always match the evidence of the finished masters. The masters, as used, reveal that there are four (or eight, if you count opening and closing themes separately) different versions of theme used on "Star Trek" (not counting the original pilot). Some (or all) of these must be different recordings, rather than re-mixes, due to the measurable variations in tempo and phrasing. What is needed to verify the exact instrumentation used, along with recording dates, is the studio documentation of the time, such as musicians' union attendance/payment sheets (these should also reveal the recording method used--e.g. quarter-inch full-track or 2-track, half-inch 3- or 4-track--and thus whether re-mixing subsequent to the session was even possible).

Futurepast63 (talk) 14:11, 25 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm surprised that there are so many recording of the theme, given that the show seemed to always be on a tight budget, and otherwise relied heavily on reusing the same cues many times over. Not so surprised that I don't believe it didn't happen, mind you, but it does seem like a strange thing for them to put so much effort into.  I suppose I should look for the Bond book sometime.--NapoliRoma (talk) 15:30, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I am afraid removing those "redundancies and contradictions" merely introduced more errors. There are undeniably more versions than mentioned in the current article, season two and three used different mixes that included Norman's vocalizations. Basing the article solely on Courage's memories is somewhat problematic; when asked about his season two contributions, he couldn't remember his archival recordings, for example. I think the article should reflect that there are conflicting depictions of the theme's history. Jeff Bond's The Music of Star Trek and the recently published complete soundtrack box of TOS should be helpful. As soon as I get around to it, I'll make the necessary edits.--DVD-junkie | talk | 15:33, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

76.99.37.108 (talk) 03:43, 14 June 2015 (UTC)If you listen closely to season three recordings, the Norman's voice is clearly audible beneath the organ. I believe she is also audible in season two's rendition but closer listening is in order.76.99.37.108 (talk) 03:43, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

More on Jack Cookerly's organ
So here's yet another Courage interview (which I've added to the article, too)—in this one he sheds significantly more light on what the instrument-that-is-not-a-theremin actually is, starting at 2:08. Here's the key bit: ...there was a fellow in town named Jack Cookerly who had been playing with various kinds of strange things on guitars, and this was just the absolute bare beginning of the synthesizer. We had a Yamaha something or other, which was a very early primitive Japanese synthesizer... --NapoliRoma (talk) 03:57, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Placement of theme on home (DVD, BluRay etc) releases
Color me curious,

Anyone know why the instrumental theme appears on the home releases during the first season, when on the original run it was the only season graced with the vocal version? If anyone has any idea why this is so, it would make a good addition to the article.

Seanmercy (talk) 15:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you're in error. The first season used an instrumental theme (with a therimin used for early episodes). The vocal theme wasn't used until Season 2. The home videos are accurate. (The Remastered versions use a new vocal theme throughout). 68.146.81.123 (talk) 16:04, 24 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The The Cage used vocals — which where dropped from the first season rendition — over an orchestral arrangement, including an organ. The initial ten episodes used a synthesizer (not a theremin), while the remaining episodes of the season used an orchestral-only arrangement. The vocals where reinstated for the second season.--Dvd-junkie (talk) 13:10, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the book Inside Star Trek, Seanmercy is correct. The first season was broadcast with Norman's vocals over the theme. As she was hired under a Screen Actor's Guild agreement, she was entitled to rerun fees. To save money for the second season, her vocals were dropped. WikiuserNI (talk) 21:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

History
Past edits eradicated some important facts, while adding some inaccuracies. I've tried to fix it.--Dvd-junkie (talk) 20:41, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

76.99.37.108 (talk) 03:51, 14 June 2015 (UTC)This would be in the influences section but I don't know how to do that. The music for a 1950's television science/science fiction anthology "Science Fiction Theater" bears a striking similarity with the Courage theme, albeit in a 1950's Americana style that is lush with strings. However, the basic theme is an arpeggio similar in tempo, followed by a swinging response also similar to the Courage call-and-response treatment. Joe-from-Malvern 76.99.37.108 (talk) 03:51, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

"Complete theme" in 2009 film
I removed this reference, because it's inaccurate. It's hard to explain not being musical, but there is a "middle eight" to the theme which is heard on TV and other recordings that is not present in the new movie. The best thing I can compare it to is the Doctor Who theme. There is a middle eight "second verse" which is often left out of arrangements made for TV, resulting in a repeat over and over of the theme's "chorus". It can be heard at the end of the 2005 episodes of Doctor Who, but with the 2006 episodes onward the "middle eight" "verse" has been restored. It's the same thing with the 2009 film's version of the Trek theme - the basic core melody is repeated over and over but the break between is omitted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.146.81.123 (talk) 16:03, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

This doesn't add up
"When originally written (and as heard in The Cage), Courage had Norman's vocalizations and the various instruments mixed equally to produce a unique "'what is that that I'm hearing?' sound".[4] According to Courage, however, Gene Roddenberry had the mix changed to bring up the female vocal, after which Courage felt the theme sounded like a soprano solo." Then: "Finally, for the third season it was remixed again, this time emphasizing the organ." But: ..."For the second season onwards, her vocals were dropped from the theme."

Furthermore (apart from the fact that I've never heard the organ in any season's opening), if you listen to this: First season theme on youtube, you'll notice there is NO vocal line, but the theme is carried by French horns and celli (an octave lower than later versions)... So, she didn't sing in the first season, and not from the second season onward as well?? Could this be cleared up somehow? -- megA (talk) 14:45, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * After the second pilot, the vocalizations were dropped for the first season. The initial ten episodes made prominent use of a synthesizer (sometimes mistaken for a theremin), last heard on The Corbomite Maneuver, while the remaining episodes of the season used an orchestral-only arrangement. For the second season, the soprano's accompaniment was re-added to the theme. Gene Roddenberry had the mix changed to bring up the female vocal, after which Courage felt the theme sounded like a soprano solo. Finally, for the third season it was remixed again, this time emphasizing the organ. This order of events is backed-up by vhs, laserdisc and dvd releases (before the remastering).--DVD-junkie | talk | 23:02, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify -- "organ" and "synthesizer" are interchangeable in this discussion (if you read my various comments above, you'll see Courage refers to what the organist Jack Cookerly played as "the absolute bare beginning of the synthesizer"). Regards, NapoliRoma (talk) 23:21, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * DVD-Junkie, what you say is the exact opposite of wht is written in the article right now. If you have sources to back up your version, maybe you could fix that mess? -- megA (talk) 23:53, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * My sources are the video releases themselves. I can illustrate the changes in the mix / orchestration with some YouTube clips:
 * Here you can see the progression through the seasons . Note that this clip features the first season opening heavy on synthesizer used on the initial ten episodes; the remainder of season one used this version. Though NapoliRoma stated "organ and synthesizer are interchangeable in this discussion" – and I am certainly no expert on this subject – the first season's synthesizer and the the third season's organ sound very differently.--DVD-junkie | talk | 07:12, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Other recordings and uses
In S04E12 of "The Big Bang Theory" Sheldon Cooper plays the star trek theme on a theremin. This may be relevant insofar as this will add to the theremin myth that is discussed somewhere else in this thread. --93.192.104.142 (talk) 13:28, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

History of versions and instrumentation.
I have just obtained La-La Land Records' 15-CD limited edition of nearly all the TOS music. The liner notes seem well researched and unambiguous. When I have time (hopefully within the next week) I will use them, along with a few other sources, to carefully revise this article's statements of when certain versions were used and what the instrumentation was for each (electric violin, cello, voice, not-theremin, etc.). I'll also post a summary here which will potentially limit any unfounded re-revisions. Anyone have any advice, caveats, etc?--ChasFink (talk) 16:36, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

First 2nd pilot paid for by network? Probably False
This is highly suspect. There's no serious factual documentation to support the assertion that Star Trek's 2nd pilot order was anything more than uncommon rather than unheard of, let alone the only one paid for by a network, despite the veracity of this claim which play "telephone" with quotes and memoirs. See this article for many examples of 2nd pilots (link). And there's no way to prove that any network did not pay for a 2nd pilot prior to this, despite any claims to the contrary.

Furthermore, this entire reference has nothing to do with the subject of the theme other than the theme not being used on it, so I suggest it be removed entirely.MrNeutronSF (talk) 05:44, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Another "Where No Man Has Gone Before"
The article starts out by saying that the theme was originally called "Where No Man Has Gone Before." That may well be true, but there is a second Alexander Courage composition with that name. It appears on the 1967 LP "Leonard Nimoy Presents Mr. Spock's Music from Outer Space," and it is an instrumental elaboration of the fanfare that opens the theme as broadcast. You can hear it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvB9z5UYMGI  2600:4040:5D30:4800:A93A:FA12:8C3A:8015 (talk) 00:02, 29 April 2023 (UTC)