Talk:Theseus/Archive 1

Earliest sources
Would it be inappropriate to discuss the earliest textual sources for this myth (or legend)?

I found more information about this on a "greek myths for kids" page than in Wikipedia! There at least it says some Roman writers mention him: Ovid and Horace. Are there no earlier Greek sources?

Stevan White (talk) 13:31, 22 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The Greek sources certainly proceed with the Roman sources and the first one I could find is Diodorus Siculus (Library of History, Book IV 55.5-61.7).


 * ICE77 (talk) 22:08, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Theseus is name-dropped by the earliest of Classical authors whose works survive to the present - Homer. Check out Iliad 1.265 and 3.144 as well as Odyssey 11.321-5 and 630-31. Even if these verses are, as many scholars believe, interpolations (i.e. lines slipped in by an unknown hand or hands) they are probably early interpolations. Hesiod (the next earliest surviving author) is also said to have mentioned him. Early Greek lyric poets such as Alkman and Stesikhoros relate his abduction of Helen (of Troy fame), and Sappho alludes to it. The 5th century BC dramatist Euripides covers some of his story in his play 'Hippolytos'. It is not until much later that the various strands of his story are pulled together into a continuous narrative. You mention Didoros; another, and later, a joined-up account of his life is given by pseudo-Apollodoros in his 'Library' ('pseudo' because we don't really know who the author was). The Loeb translation by Sir James G Frazer is crammed full of footnotes to earlier sources, and he has a reasonable stab at separating the wheat from the chaff. Lloyd Bye (talk) 19:35, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Clarification request
"Theseus subsequently built a deme in her honor."


 * What is meant by "deme" isn't clear. Can someone clarify this, or perhaps edit the linked article to clarify the meaning? --Kerowyn 08:22, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Answer: Deme=Demos (municipality), ie city. Jaqvaar, 17th Jan 2008

I doubt the correctness of the Greek spelling, with υ rather than ο as the second-to-last letter. Where did it come from? -- Mike Hardy
 * Probably from Shakespeare. In A Midsummer Night's Dream Theseus is spelled with the "u." This might be the first widely distributed instance of the name in English. Just my own theory thoug. --Kerowyn 08:22, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Answer:The spelling in Ancient Greek was θησευς, so the U is just a transliteration of the Greek υ (which is actually both a U and a Y in modern English). The ancient Greek pronunciation was close to "theseus" whereas more modern versions sounded like "thesefs" (e+u in modern Greek is pronounced as "ef" or "ev"). The modern Greek name of this hero however (after 1981) is "Θησέας" (pronounced "Thiseas"). There was no instance anywhere throughout Greek history where the particular hero was written as "thiseos" (though the genitive form of the name is Θησεως with Ω).

As for Mike Hardy's point: this is true about modern Greek names (Nikos, Giorgos, etc), but Theseus is older than Athens itself, the name being at least 3000 years old (and perhaps even 4000). Names ending in -eus were common in those days. Similarly, modern names ending in -is, such as Kostis, derive from a double E sound (EE) which, at some point in Classical times, was turnned into the letter H (ΗΡΑΚΛΗΣ=EERAKLEES, ie the hero Hercules). Something similar happened to English with the two Us, even today known as "double-U" and written "W". One might also like to compare the usage of U and O in modern Arabic (written with the same letter). One theory states that ancient Greek in its original form sounded a lot like that.

Steve Jaqvaar

http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Theseus.html has the previous spelling (with the υ). I too am confused, but this is consistent with the English spelling (υ is typically transliterated to 'u', whereas ο is typically transliterated to 'o'. cf. αυτο -> "auto", etc.  So if the Greek had an ο, one would expect the English spelling to be "Theseos," which it is not.). Changing back until we get some contradictory sources saying otherwise. Delirium 00:43 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)

You're mistaken about one thing: Most masculine Greek names ending with "omicron sigma" get transliterated so that they end with "us", because they got Latinized before they got transliterated. But a bit of web searching now makes me think upsilon was right. -- Mike Hardy

Wait .... I should have said they got Latinized when they got transliterated. The Romans transliterated them and adapted them to their own language by putting "-VS" where "-ΟΣ" had appeared in Greek. Then we inherited the Latin spellings. -- Mike Hardy

The first sentence of this article says Theseus was king of Athens. It seems to me that could be historical, or legendary, or mythological, or some mixture of those three. Could that be clarified in the first sentence? Michael Hardy 18:58 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * I believe mythological/legendary, but probably based on a historical figure. In some quick googling I wasn't able to discern whether there's good evidence for his being historical or not, so can't say for sure. Any classicists around here? --Delirium 01:22 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The Ball of Twine
I was under the impression (probably from Graves' _The Greek Myths_) that the ball of twine that Ariadne gave Theseus was actually to help him find the Minotaur's lair, and not to find his way out. That was the secret of the lair -- that the ball would continue to roll downhill. Does anyone else remember reading this? My copy of Graves is in another city right now :P. Chaleur 20:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * In The Greek Myths, section 98 Graves does give the impression that the ball is rolling of itself; his sources are Plutarch, Life of Theseus and Pseudo-Apollodorus, Epitome of the Bibliotheke, which has this text: "Following his instructions, she gave Theseus a ball of thread as he entered. He fastened this to the door and let it trail behind him as he went in. He came across the Minotauros in the furthest section of the labyrinth, killed him with jabs of his fist, and then made his way out again by pulling himself along the thread." In all the myths it is the winding and unwinding of the thread that is mentioned. What would be downhill one way is not the other.--Wetman 21:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Wrong number?
In the section about the minotaur is says Theseus and the 14 children returned safely but earlier in the passage it says that THeseus took the place of one of the people to be sacrificed so it should be 13 children can someone please edit it because for some reason my pc wont let me edit it it will only let me post on tlk pages ..

Explaining 'relevance'
The following formerly listed items are here because they are not relevant. This means that they do not enrich or clarify the reader's understanding of the subject, which is Theseus. As the list is added to, as doubtless it will be, please give specific reasons for irrelevance in italics, for the young folk. (Wetman 23:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)):
 * Theseus's battle with the Minotaur was adapted into an episode of Ulysses 31.
 * What use was made of the myth? What does this tell about the modern idea of Theseus? Why is this relevant?


 * One of the episodes of Jim Henson's The Storyteller was about Theseus's battle with the Minotaur.
 * What use was made of the myth? What does this tell about the modern idea of Theseus? Why is this relevant?


 * In the animated television series Class of the Titans, the character Theresa is descended from Theseus.
 * Aside from the ignorant folk etymology mislinking Theresa and Theseus, likely to confuse the Wikipedia reader as much as the poster of this factoid, this is irrelevant to the subject, which is Theseus.


 * Theseus was featured as a boss in the video game God of War II. In it, the main character, Kratos, meets an aged Theseus on the Island of Creation. Theseus at that time is working for The Sisters of Fate as the Horse Keeper. Knowing that Kratos wishes to force the aid of the sisters, he decides to fight Kratos, using his spear and a mastery of Ice magic. He is then murdered for standing in Kratos' way. Somewhat ironically, Theseus calls upon Minotaurs to help him fight Kratos.
 * Only the name "Theseus" has been employed in this muddled invention, which is likely to confuse the Wikipedia reader as much as the poster. There is no 'irony' in misundertstandings of 'Minotaurs' [sic] and no genuine link to the subject of this article.

Phaedra and Hippolytus
Phaedra is identified as Theseus' first wife, but in other pages is his second wife. Also, her being his first wife contradicts facts presented immediately following. If she was his first wife, how could she fall in love with Theseus' son from another wife, while her sons are still in infancy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.0.37.194 (talk) 15:18, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Antiope was Theseus' first wife by most accounts. —41 7 「話」 15:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Theseus wasn't king
Theseus wasnt a king of Athens but was a legendary founder of Athens. theseus  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.82.142.14 (talk) 21:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

According to the midnight summer's dream, Theseus is the duke of Athens. Does this help?


 * "But when Theseus became King he showed himself as intelligent as he was powerful." Thuc. 2.15
 * (ἐβασίλευσε - reigned, many scholars agree he was monarchical if not tyrannical, certainly more powerful than a duke. Have a look at John N Davie's "Theseus the King in Fifth-Century Athens" in Greece & Rome 2ndSeries (1982) pages 25-34 of that journal). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.168.117.58 (talk) 06:30, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

That's right, he was king I think right before Menestheus, who reigned during the actual Trojan War. Bombadil.Esquire (talk) 03:12, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Theseus was the mythical king and founder-hero of Athens, most certainly not a duke, and he succeeded his father Aegeus (see List of kings of Athens).


 * ICE77 (talk) 22:40, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Dubious
Seeing as it's left...and needs fixing:

"Phaedra, Theseus's first wife, bore Theseus two sons, Demophon and Acamas. While these two were still in their infancy, Phaedra fell in love with Hippolytus, Theseus's son by Antiope (Shakespeare confused the two names of these Amazons; the Queen Hippolyta and her sister Antiope, saying Hippolyta was the one who married him when in fact it was Antiope). [dubious – discuss]"

Whoa, okay. Source for ALL of this?

My source for Theseus being married to Hippolyta/Hippolyte is this: Who's Who in Greek and Roman Mythology by David Kravitz, page 226. I also have several other sources, if you're interested. So I'm changing it to the correct version. If anyone has a contradictory source, then great, post it here ;) Thanks! BlackPearl14 [ talkies!•contribs! ] 03:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Ancient sources are conflicting. For an early literalistic attempt at constructing a "biography" of Theseus, Plutarch's Vita is now in the External links section.--Wetman (talk) 21:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay; perhaps we can add a section with information regarding this conflict, or, better yet, a sub-section to give this out. As far as I have known, Theseus/Hippolyta was the first marriage, after the "affair" (so to speak, not quite, though) with Ariadne. I'll look into this further. BlackPearl14 [ talkies!•contribs! ] 03:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that Plutarch is more reliable source than a modern author. I am curious as to what other sources for Hippolyta being the wife of Theseus do you have? Yolanna (talk) 11:31, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Spurious details
The "tell-it-in-your-own-words" school of myth-reading is always imaginatively at work in Wikipedia. Greek myth exists in literary sources, visual sources and interpretations. Isn't it true that none of the following anecdotal details are supported? (Wetman (talk) 21:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)):


 * The Pallantides were extremely cocky and self-opinionated. For years they were unwelcome there, fighting in the streets and lounging around the palace. Being jealous of Androgeus' success, they set an ambush one evening as he walked back to his lodgings after competing for the day. He fought bravely, but was heavily outnumbered. They killed him and left his body in the street.


 *  In the morning, the whole town was surrounded. [The overnight ferry from Crete is a modern innovation.]


 * What Theseus didn't understand was, although he had killed the assassins of Androgeus, Minos still demanded tribute. So it was that Theseus volunteered to travel to Crete, and there, confront the Minotaur.


 * Theseus accidentally tripped on a rock and the Minotaur instantly woke.


 * Ariadne realized that Theseus had only used her


 * Sorry I "lined" the whole thing above, it was messing up the screens I used (I tried it from different monitors); I believe I must concur with you, I have no anecdotal evidence, but I will be sure to look into the very few that I think may have some correct aspects. BlackPearl14 [ talkies!•contribs! ] 03:34, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Fixed the formatting glitch. If any of these anecdotal details appear in the classical sources, well, just put them back in, I suppose.--Wetman (talk) 07:12, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Great ;) BlackPearl14 [ talkies!•contribs! ] 01:19, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Clarification needed
On Pirithous' behalf they travelled to the underworld, domain of Persephone and her husband, Hades. Hades pretended to offer them hospitality and laid out a feast, but as soon as the two visitors sat down, snakes coiled around their feet and held them fast. In some versions, the stone itself grew and attached itself to their thighs.

When Heracles came into Hades for his twelfth task, he freed Theseus but the earth shook when he attempted to liberate Pirithous, and Pirithous had to remain in Hades for eternity. When Heracles had pulled Theseus from the chair where he was trapped, some of his thigh stuck to it; this explains the supposedly lean thighs of Athenians. When Theseus returned to Athens, he found that the Dioscuri had taken Helen and Aethra back to Sparta.

this part is very weird. where did the chair come from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.70.174.116 (talk) 03:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the portion of the article which states Hyppolotus's cult was for Aphrodite
Did not Hyppolotus, hate Aphrodite leading to his punishment of having his mother Phaedra fall in love with him and his eventual death and exiling by his father? Why would a cult for Hyppolotus continue his distaste for Aphrodite and worship of Artemis?--Nonymous-raz (talk) 04:10, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Theseus and the chair
It wasn't part of his thighs that were left behind. That seems to be a Victorian-tinged euphemism. He left a chunk of his butt behind. Hence the allegedy small butts of Greek men (I have very little empirical data on the subject). Ifnkovhg (talk) 00:16, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

"Lay"
Talking of euphemisms (see above), I changed "laid with" to "lay with", which is what it means - but do people always understand such polite language today? "Coupled with", perhaps?

Rogersansom (talk) 17:21, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Did Theseus ever encounter Medusa in Greek myth?
(Note: I am aware of the difference between Theseus and Perseus.) In Dante's Inferno, canto IX, lines 50-60, the Furies say (I'm paraphrasing) "It's a pity Medusa didn't petrify Theseus when she had the chance to do so. We won't make that mistake again, har har."

Except I can find no mention of an encounter between Theseus and Medusa when Theseus was in the underworld. The only hits I can find are on sites that are obviously confusing Perseus with Theseus.

Help... it's driving me nuts.93.92.153.12 (talk) 13:35, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Fact?
There were no sources sited for this sentence, and there is no proof that Shakespeare was looking to Chaucer or Boccaccio on this issue. So, I deleted the sentence below:

Shakespeare draws on Geoffrey Chaucer's Knight's Tale and Giovanni Boccaccio's Teseida, whence the use of the anachronistic term "Duke": when Boccaccio and Chaucer were writing in the fourteenth century, there was an actual Duke of Athens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.145.223.110 (talk) 04:06, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Bacchylides
Yeah so, does anybody want to acknowledge Bacchylides (Βακχυλίδης or Bakchylides etc) as a source for the Theseus myth? One of the earlier sources for this particular story (in regards to Ovid, Plut, Ap, Hyg...) Check out the Dithyrambs 17-18.

Perseus TUFTS Bacchylides Dithyrambs 17 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.168.117.58 (talk) 06:18, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Questions and comments I
1. "Aegeus, one of the primordial kings of Athens, found a bride."

How can Aegeus be a king of Athens if Theseus himself founded Athens?

2. I can't quite understand this sentence: "At Athens, Aegeus was joined by Medea, who had fled Corinth after slaughtering the children she had borne to Jason, and had taken up a new consort in Aegeus."

The problem is that the sentence is ambiguous so I'm not sure who is who. This sentence is messy and needs to be rewritten. The way I read it is: "At Athens, Aegeus was joined by Medea who fled Corinth after slaughtering the children she had borne (Jason), taking up Aegeus as her new consort." If my interpretation is correct, feel free to use my sentence and replace the current one otherwise rework it as needed because the way it is now is not good.

3. "Theseus was called the Mother Dog for many reasons."

What are the reasons?

4. "On the way to Marathon, Theseus took shelter from a storm in the hut of an ancient woman named Hecale."

Ancient or old?

5. "In another version, King Minos of Crete had waged war with the Athenians and was successful."

Who wrote this version?

6. "On the return journey Theseus abandoned Ariadne on the island of Naxos."

What was the reason for doing that?

7. "In other versions of the story, the god Dionysus appeared to Theseus and told him that he had already chosen Ariadne for his bride."

What is the source for this alternate story?

8. "Pirithous took up his arms and the pair met to do battle, but were so impressed with each other they took an oath of friendship."

Impressed by what?

9. "Theseus, believed either to be in the company of Hercules, or of his own accord, had been on a quest in the land of the Amazons, a race of all-female warriors who reproduced with men for children (but killed off the males)."

This sentence needs to be fixed.

10. "According to some versions of the story, Hippolytus had scorned Aphrodite to become a devotee of Artemis."

What is the source for this version?

11. In the "Phaedra and Hippolytus" section there are too many versions but no sources at all.

ICE77 (talk) 07:54, 9 June 2011 (UTC)


 * 2. Medea was wife to the hero Jason, with whom she had two children, Mermeros and Pheres. So, the original sentence is correct.


 * 3. I doubt the veracity of the "old dog" sentence. It gives no trustworthy hits when googled, and is even given as example of false material on Wikipedia:
 * (Kjell Pettersson (talk) 21:38, 5 May 2012 (UTC))

Bad link
Reference 18 has a link for Athenagoras that points to a disambiguation page. Please change the reference to point to the correct Athenagoras. 4.249.63.79 (talk) 15:30, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen the Kerenyi page and note to which ref 18 refers, but the citation is clearly meant to be Athenaeus, Deipnosophistae 13.4 (557a) where one does find the reference to Helen and Theseus. The clue to the typo is this 557a, which is one way of referring to pages in Athenaeus. Nowhere in Athenagoras of Athens (who must be meant here) does one find mention of Theseus and Helen, though Helen does appear at the beginning of his Embassy for the Christians in a different context. I don't have access to Kerenyi, so I don't want to change too much, but I will try to get the proper info in. The Cardiff Chestnut (talk) 16:24, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

King Arthur and king Theseus similarity
Yes, it is certain, this is probably, is the actual inspiration to King Arthur and the foundation of Camelot, similar to King Theseus and his establishment to building an expanding city of Athens--GoShow (...............) 15:49, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The resource is here and here, Theseus similarity of taking the sword from the stone and the foundation of Athens should be edited in the article from similarity and adaptations.--GoShow (...............) 15:49, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Syntax
Under Medea and the Marathonian Bull, Androgeus and the Pallantides, the third para begins:

When Theseus appeared in the town, his reputation had preceded him, having travelled along the notorious coastal road from Troezen and slain some of the most feared bandits there.

Sounds like his reputation did the slaying.

Better is

Having travelled via the notorious coastal road from Troezen, along which he slew some of its most feared bandits, Theseus found his reputation had preceded him.

I can't edit the page myself; I've been blocked (probably for logging on over a VPN). Caligo 15:56, 11 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caligo (talk • contribs)

Homoerotic undertone in Attic comedy
First of all, this part of the article is an idea expressed by Rictor Norton and even uses an exact quote from his site's article "The Homosexual Pastoral Tradition", without giving him credit. Then, at the quoted text, Norton fails to provide references about Theseus and Pirithous.

Second, the quoted book "Sexual life in ancient Greece", by Licht, Hans., says nothing about this "homoerotic tone" between Theseus and Peirithous. The book explains what its author - not ancient sources - imagines about how funny the passage of Theseus having his hinder parts worn smooth may have been for the ancient Attic comedy playgoers, and he supposes this because Aristophanes uses the idea in his comedies. Yet, Aristophanes never says a word about Theseus and Pirithous. Nor does the sources quoted by Licht (Suïdas, Aristophanes, etc.), as the interested parties can verify going to the quoted books.

For me this part of the article is an invention that has no basis in the sources. --CalaClii (talk) 17:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Looks like vandalism
At the time, Theseus was called the Mother Dog for many reasons. I don't know Greek mythology well enough, but I believe it's a stupid joke. The Terrible Mutant Hamster (talk) 18:32, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

First reference contains the word "trolled" used as a verb
I looked in every online dictionary i could find, each and everyone of them told me that they either mean "publish", "declare" or "rummage".

"^ For the ancient Greeks, convinced that Theseus had actually trolled, he was not mythic, of course, but legendary." excuse me but this doesn't make any sense

are you using the word "trolled" with the colloquial, internet meaning of it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.26.59.246 (talk) 16:54, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Clarification on Minotaur story
The following sentence does not make sense:

"It is said that a maiden by the name of Mri Deltos had survived the Labyrinth and took her along with him."

Who do "her" and "he" refer to? The context does not make this clear; it seems like an error. 128.54.146.71 (talk) 06:56, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the heads up. It was old vandalism from November 2013. I reverted it. Best regards. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  07:06, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Reference to the ball of twine as a 'clue'
In the fourth paragraph of the minotaur section, the ball of twine gifted to theseus is referred to as a 'clue' and links through to the clue page. This page contains many definitions for clue, but none that seem to fit this useage, which doesn't seem to fit the 'standard' definition of 'a piece of evidence'. Could tis perhaps be clarified or the link removed? 2.99.242.242 (talk) 18:57, 7 April 2015 (UTC)


 * As of today, the reference to the ball of thread as a "clue" appears to have been removed. Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, E.1.9), as far as I know, it the only source that uses the word "clue".


 * ICE77 (talk) 22:51, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Assumption that Theseus wasn't a real person?
It is biased to state outright that Theseus wasn't a real historical figure, or based upon a real person. Why does his existence have any less validity than Biblical figures? There is no contemporary source stating definitively that he was mythological.

Some scholars and researchers posit that he was based upon a real figure, e.g. "Theseus of all the legendary heroes has the strongest claims to being a real person. As stated above, he was for Plutarch a historical figure and he very likely was one of the kings of Athens perhaps in the ninth or eighth century B.C."

If not removed, that first reference ought to be revised to at least acknowledge the possibility that he was an actual historical figure, even if considered contentious. That would neutralize any apparent bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hogthrob (talk • contribs)

I added your suggested source to the article https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Theseus&diff=870465078&oldid=867553078. II | (t - c) 00:44, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Questions and comments II
1. The article does not say Aethra was pregnant of Aegeus so I don't understand how Theseus can be half mortal and half immortal. The article on Troezen says "Troezen was where Aethra, daughter of Pittheus, slept with both Aegeus and Poseidon on the same night and fell pregnant with the great Greek hero Theseus."

An explanation in this article would be desirable to clarify.

2. The article says "After Aethra became pregnant, Aegeus decided to return to Athens" but it does not say for what reason.

3. The 6 labours need an introduction to explain why they are called labours. As I compare them to the labours of Hercules, I see some similarities but the idea behind them is different.

4. Who fought the Marathonian Bull first? Was it Theseus or Androgeos?

5. The article says "Thus father and son were reunited, and Medea, it was said, fled to Asia".

Who said that?

6. "On the third occasion ...".

What occasion is that?

7. "Theseus followed Daedalus' instructions given to Ariadne; go forwards, always down and never left or right."

If those are textual instructions, they should be in quotation marks.

8. "Phaedra, Theseus's second wife and the daughter of King Minos, bore Theseus two sons, Demophon and Acamas."

Who was the first wife of Theseus then? It should be added to the article.

9. I assume that the second paragraph of the section "Other stories and his death" is mythology. If it is, it should be stated. It sounds like real history.

10. "F. L. Lucas's epic poem Ariadne (1932) is an epic reworking of the Labyrinth myth: Aegle, one of the sacrificial maidens who accompany Theseus to Crete, is Theseus's sweetheart, the Minotaur is Minos himself in a bull-mask, and Ariadne, learning on Naxos of Theseus's earlier love for Aegle, decides to leave him for the Ideal [Dionysus]."

Why should the word "Dionysus" have square brackets around it?

ICE77 (talk) 06:13, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Five sources on Theseus: documentation and discrepancies
I read extensively on Theseus and here I list 5 versions of the story of his life:

1. Diodorus Siculus (Library of History, Book IV 55.5-61.7)

2. Hyginus (Fabulae, 138, 37-43)

3. Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 3.1.1-4, 3.15.6-8, 3.16.1-2, E.1.1-10)

4. Plutarch (Life of Theseus, III [3]-XXII)

5. Pausanias (Description of Greece, 1.27.8-10, 1.20.3, 1.22.5, 1.24.1).

Sources 1 through 4 are quite a bit consistent and very similar although, in some cases like sources 2, 3 and 5, the events are not in sequence. Source 5 does not list all the details of sources 1 through 4.

I see a variety of discrepancies and a severe lack of sources. Since I spent a lot of time to study the accounts on the life of Theseus I will proceed to dissect and criticize this article with the hope that what you will read below will initiate a revision of the article which is truly necessary to provide a well documented account of the adventures of Theseus.

1. "Aegeus, one of the primordial kings of Athens, was childless. Desiring an heir, he asked the Oracle of Delphi for advice. Her cryptic words were "Do not loosen the bulging mouth of the wineskin until you have reached the height of Athens, lest you die of grief." Aegeus did not understand the prophecy and was disappointed. He asked the advice of his host Pittheus, king of Troezen. Pittheus understood the prophecy, got Aegeus drunk, and gave Aegeus his daughter Aethra."

This is according to Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 3.15.6-7). It should be noted.

2. "But following the instructions of Athena in a dream, Aethra left the sleeping Aegeus and waded across to the island of Sphairia that lay close to Troezen's shore. There she poured a libation to Sphairos (Pelops' charioteer) and Poseidon, and was possessed by the sea god in the night."

What's the source for the above? I did not find references to Athena, Spairia or Sphairos.

3. "he buried his sandals and sword under a huge rock".

This is according to Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 3.15.7) and Plutarch (Life of Theseus, III [4]). It should be noted.

Diodorus Siculus (Library of History, Book IV 59.1), Plutarch (Life of Theseus, III [5]) and Pausanias (Description of Greece, 1.27.8) mention "tokens". Diodorus Siculus does not say what they are. Interestingly, Pausanias also uses the word "tokens" but to refer to "boots and a sword", the only instance where I heard of boots instead of sandals.

4. "Aegeus was joined by Medea, who had left Corinth after slaughtering the children she had borne, and had taken Aegeus as her new consort."

The fact Medea fled Corinth is only told by Plutarch (Life of Theseus, XII [2]). The fact Medea married Aegeus is told by Diodorus Siculus (Library of History, Book IV 55.5). Plutarch merely says she was living with Aegeus (Life of Theseus, XII [2]). This should be noted.

5. "Theseus could choose to go by sea (which was the safe way) or by land, following a dangerous path around the Saronic Gulf, where he would encounter a string of six entrances to the Underworld".

The option to go by sea is only offered in the account of Plutarch (Life of Theseus, VI [3]).

Where is the mention of the 6 entrances to the Underworld?

6. "Theseus decided to go alone by the land route and defeated a great many bandits along the way."

The choice of land over sea is only offered by Plutarch (Life of Theseus, VI [3]) and the killing of the 6 bandits is told by all of the sources I listed at the top, except for Pausanias. This should be noted. However, note that Hyginus (Fabulae, 38) provides a diverging account regarding the 6 bandits. In fact, he says that Theseus killed five people, two animals (including a boar, the bull of Marathon that Hercules brought from Crete) and a monster (the Minotaur in Cnossus).

7. "In another deed north of the Isthmus, at a place called Crommyon, he killed an enormous pig, the Crommyonian Sow, bred by an old crone named Phaea. Some versions name the sow herself as Phaea."

The sources are missing.

8. "Near Megara, an elderly robber named Sciron forced travellers along the narrow cliff-face pathway to wash his feet. While they knelt, he kicked them off the cliff behind them, where they were eaten by a sea monster (or, in some versions, a giant turtle)."

The sources are missing.

9. "When Theseus arrived at Athens, he did not reveal his true identity immediately. Aegeus gave him hospitality but was suspicious of the young, powerful stranger's intentions."

This is related by Plutarch (Life of Theseus, XII [2]).

10. "Aegeus's wife Medea recognised Theseus immediately as Aegeus' son and worried that Theseus would be chosen as heir to Aegeus' kingdom instead of her son Medus. She tried to arrange to have Theseus killed by asking him to capture the Marathonian Bull, an emblem of Cretan power".

Medea knows who Theseus is according to Plutarch (Life of Theseus, XII [2]). However, Medea's son Medus is never mentioned. Medea sends Theseus to face the Marathonian Bull is accounted by Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 3.15.7). The statement of the bull being an emblem of Cretan power is totally useless and unrelated to the story (unless the missing sources is provided).

11. "On the way to Marathon, Theseus took shelter from a storm in the hut of an ancient woman named Hecale. She swore to make a sacrifice to Zeus if Theseus were successful in capturing the bull. Theseus did capture the bull, but when he returned to Hecale's hut, she was dead. In her honour Theseus gave her name to one of the demes of Attica, making its inhabitants in a sense her adopted children".

I have not found a reference to Hecale. Who wrote the above?

12. "When Theseus returned victorious to Athens, where he sacrificed the Bull, Medea tried to poison him. At the last second, Aegeus recognised the sandals and the sword, and knocked the poisoned wine cup from Theseus's hand".

Theseus did not return to Athens. He had never been there. He arrived in Athens.

Also, the bull was sacrificed in Athens according to Diodorus Siculus (Library of History, Book IV 59.6), Plutarch (Life of Theseus, XIV) and Pausanias (Description of Greece, 1.27.10).

However, according to Plutarch (Life of Theseus, XII [2]) Aegeus recognises Theseus from his sword and not his sandals. None of the 5 sources listed above says anything about Theseus being recognized from his sandals. Again, knocking the cup is according to Plutarch (Life of Theseus, XII [2]).

13. "Medea, it was said, fled to Asia."

This is according to Diodorus Siculus (Library of History, Book IV 55.6) but Phoenicia is mentioned rather than Asia.

14a. Regarding the Panathenaic games, the article says that Theseus, "Being strong and skilful, he did very well, winning some events outright". Out of all the 5 sources above, only 2 mention the Panathenaic games. Diodorus Siculus (Library of History, Book IV 60.4) says Theseus "defeated all the contestants". Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 3.15.7) says he won the games. Therefore, none of the sources I have seen say that Theseus won some events outright.

14b. The article goes on saying "He soon became a crowd favourite, much to the resentment of the Pallantides who assassinated him, incurring the wrath of Minos".

Androgeos was killed by the Pallantides only according to Diodorus Siculus (Library of History, Book IV 60.4).

15. "Minos asked Aegeus for his son's assassins".

I have not seen this claim in any of the 5 sources listed at the top.

16. "At the end of every Great Year, which occurred after every seven cycles on the solar calendar, the seven most courageous youths and the seven most beautiful maidens were to board a boat and be sent as tribute to Crete, never to be seen again".

"In another version, King Minos had waged war with the Athenians and was successful. He then demanded that, at nine-year intervals, seven Athenian boys and seven Athenian girls were to be sent to Crete to be devoured by the Minotaur".

Sending 7 boys and 7 girls every year is consistent only with Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 3.15.8). The other sources say 7 boys and 7 girls every 9 years are Diodorus Siculus (Library of History, Book IV 61.3) and Plutarch (Life of Theseus, XV). Hyginus (Fabulae, 41) mentions 7 boys but it does not say anything about 7 girls. Other sources say simply 7 girls and 7 boys with no time reference like Pausanias (Description of Greece, 1.27.10).

The above also mentions the "Great Year" which I did not find in any of the 5 sources I initially mentioned.

Both of the excerpts from the article should mention the appropriate sources which, in this case, are Pseudo-Apollodorus for the first and Diodorus Siculus for the second.

17. "On the third occasion" is an extremely vague thing that took me a long time to figure out. After I read 5 versions of the story of Theseus it became finally clear what it meant. The "third occasion" was the third offering to the Minotaur, the third vessel to sail to Crete to be given to the Minotaur. This should be stated more clearly. As is, it doesn't make any sense. Please note that the "third" tribute is only mentioned by Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, E.1.7) and Plutarch (Life of Theseus, XV and XVII). The recurring tribute is not even implied or mentioned or numbered in Pausanias (Description of Greece, 1.27.10).

18. "Theseus volunteered to talk to the monster to stop this horror".

This is totally ridiculous! Theseus was to talk to the monster? LOL

Talking to the Minotaur was never mentioned in any passage of the 5 sources I listed at the top. Also, Theseus volunteering is mentioned only in 3 sources: Hyginus (Fabulae, 41), Pseudo-Apollodorus (E.1.7) and Plutarch (Life of Theseus, XVII [2]). Please notice that Pseudo-Apollodorus mentions that Theseus was either sent to the Minotaur or that he possibly volunteered.

19. "Theseus was stripped of his weapons when they sailed".

I have not found a sources that claims the above, aside from Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 3.15.8) who says the youths to be sent to Crete should be unarmed which, logically, implies Theseus would have been "stripped" of weapons.

20. "On his arrival in Crete, Ariadne, King Minos' daughter, fell in love with Theseus and, on the advice of Daedalus, gave him a ball of thread".

The "thread" is mentioned by Hyginus (Fabulae, 42), Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, E.1.9) and Plutarch (Life of Theseus, XIX).

Note that Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, E.1.9) does not say thread but uses the word "clue". Note 11, "Ariadne is sometimes represented in vase-paintings with the thread wound on her spindle." is completely useless. It should have a source, not a comment.

21. "That night, Ariadne escorted Theseus to the Labyrinth, and Theseus promised that if he returned from the Labyrinth he would take Ariadne with him".

I have not found an instance that says "Ariadne escorted Theseus to the Labyrinth" at night in any of the 5 sources I listed at the top. The promise to take Ariadne away is only listed by Hyginus (Fabulae, 42).

22a. "As soon as Theseus entered the Labyrinth, he tied one end of the ball of string to the door post and brandished his sword which he had kept hidden from the guards inside his tunic. Theseus followed Daedalus' instructions given to Ariadne; go forwards, always down and never left or right. Theseus came to the heart of the Labyrinth and also upon the sleeping Minotaur. The beast awoke and a tremendous fight then occurred. Theseus overpowered the Minotaur with his strength and stabbed the beast in the throat with his sword (according to one scholium on Pindar's Fifth Nemean Ode, Theseus strangled it)".

Theseus tied the "clue" to the door post only according to Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, E.1.9). None of the sources I listed at the top says anything about "sword", "hiding", "tunic", "instructions" (go forwards, always down and never left or right), a "sleeping" Minotaur, the awakening of the Minotaur or stabbing in the throat with a sword. I would have to read about the scholium on Pindar's Fifth Nemean Ode that says Theseus strangled the Minotaur.

Out of the 5 sources at the top, Diodorus Siculus (Library of History, Book IV 61.4) says Theseus slews the Minotaur (generic), Hyginus (Fabulae, 42) says Theseus "killed the Minotaur" (again, generic), Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, E.1.9) says Theseus killed the Minotaur with his fists and Plutarch (Life of Theseus, XIX) says Theseus "slew the Minotaur" (once again, generic).

Killing the Minotaur with a sword sounds heroic but none of the sources I found are consistent with a death by sword of the Minotaur.

22b. "After decapitating the beast, Theseus used the string to escape the Labyrinth and managed to escape with all of the young Athenians and Ariadne as well as her younger sister Phaedra".

None of the sources I found talks about a decapitation of the Minotaur. This is another instance of inconsistency and lack of sourcing. The only time Phaedra is mentioned is by Hyginus (Fabulae, 43) when Theseus dumps Ariadne on the island of Dia because it "would be a disgrace" (unclear why), returns to Athens and then marries Phaedra (unclear why).

23a. "Then he and the rest of the crew fell asleep on the beach of the island of Naxos, where they stopped on their way back, looking for water. Athena woke Theseus and told him to leave early that morning and to leave Ariadne there for Dionysus, for Naxos was his island".

I have not found any source saying the "crew fell asleep", that they were "looking for water" or that "Athena woke Theseus" with instruction from Dionysus and that Naxos "was his island".

The only source about Ariadne sleeping is Hyginus (Fabulae, 43). Pausanias (Description of Greece, 1.20.3) seems to hint Ariadne fell asleep.

23b. "Dionysus later saw Ariadne crying out for Theseus and took pity on her and married her".

I have not found a sources that say Ariadne was crying and Dionysus married her out of pity.

24. "cliff of Sounio".

None of the 5 sources at the top mentions "Sounio".

25. Hyginus (Fabulae, 40) captures the flight of Deadalus and Icarus. None of the other 4 sources listed at the top talk about it (unless they are out of the ranges I specified and I did not come across the story).

Does anybody else relate the story of the flight of Deadalus and Icarus?

Having said all the above, I think this article really needs to be completely rewritten and multiple sources should be added for each episode from the tokens to Androgeos to the Minotaur to Ariadne in Naxos to the sails. I think the sources should be stated in a dedicated paragraph and include the ranges I specified above. That way the reader can trace them. As of now, multiple untraced sources are mixed and smeared across the article.

If you are familiar with the sources and the stories of Theseus you will notice that I did not make any attempt to review and criticize the slaying of the 6 "evildoers" (in the words of Pseudo-Apollodorus) because they are mostly consistent across literature. However, I personally do not like them because they are stated quickly and in some cases labeled as the "Labors of Theseus" (Fabulae, 38) which, in my opinion, even if Diodorus Siculus (Library of History, Book IV 59.1) states Theseus wanted to "emulate" Heracles, the so-called "Labors of Theseus" are very superficial, they lack style and the articulate narrative of Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 2.5.1 to 2.5.12) who dedicated many pages to each in detail. Besides, Theseus was not really punished for something (like Heracles was for murdering) so Theseus and his "labors" were merely an act of emulation of Heracles.

ICE77 (talk) 23:42, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Knossus
Shouldn't this read "Athens," instead of "Knossos"?: "When King Minos had heard of what befell his son, he ordered the Cretan fleet to set sail for Knossos." Doughboy1234 (talk) 20:40, 10 May 2018 (UTC)