Talk:Thrace

Farsi poem

 * من از بيگانگان هرگز ننالم
 * كه با من هر چه كرد آن آشنا كرد —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.234.145.72 (talk • contribs) 07:20, 13 October 2004 (UTC)


 * Is this... Farsi? Please write in English. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;

--No that is Persian. It is a poem destined for one of the members. It was the best way to make him understand the message. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.234.145.72 (talk • contribs) 07:15, 14 October 2004 (UTC)
 * Persian and Farsi are the same language, aren't they? --Khalil78 14:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * An English translation (or external links) would be well received. This is a place of sharing, and poetry has much value.  --Dl33t 22:46, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * 1) من از بيگانگان هرگز ننالم
 * 2) كه با من هر چه كرد آن آشنا كرد


 * In Parsi it roughly translates to "I will not ever moan (because) of the foreigners, as what it did to me, it taught me."

I am guessing this was written by an Iranian poet under foreign rule..?  - K a s h  Talk 13:03, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Thracians, Greeks
I removed it because in the end of page i have the sources about the thracian relation with greeks in customs & language

I think Thracians do not necessary have to be Greek. Many Bulgarians and Turks also associate with this identity. As such, I do not understand why from the Famous Thracians section you keep removing Ataturk, probably one of the most famous Thracians. When you have Kara Thrace ( from Battlestar Galactica of all places) right up there.

No I think there is too much Greek Nationalism that is seeping into some of the decisions in this page, which is also the exact same reason all the minorities have left the beautiful city of Thessaloniki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thracian2005 (talk • contribs) 06:44, 29 March 2010 (UTC) It makes no sense whatsoever for you to remove Ataturk. The only reason you removed it because you are thinking that all Thracians are Greek. That is incorrect. In fact most Thracians are not Greek, never have been and definitely not today. The biggest city in all of Thrace is Edirne, so by definition the majority of Thrace is not Greek. In history Thracians untill Helenization wer not Greek. There are literally Hundreds of Thousands of Pomaps, Bulgarians and Turks who are Thracian and are not Greek. You can go back as far back in history as you want and you will find that not all Thracians are not Greek.

Ataturk is from Thrace, much more so than Kara Thrace is. And if you dispute that, then I think you have bigger issues then posting on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.40.54.0 (talk) 05:50, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Map hard to read
The map is difficult to get anything out of. Could someone please include a textual description of the geographic region involved? &mdash;James S. 07:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Clicking on the image in the article will give you a closer view, though I blew up the image here on the Talk Page. The map does not represent the pre-Roman situation, since "Moesia superior" and "Moesia inferior" were outlined by the Romans. The outline that the map gives (basically of Roman Thrace) approximates to pre-Roman classical Thrace. Alexander 007 07:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

A source on Thracians after hellenization
Esychius According to Esychius Thracians are called Ionians(Greeks) and Kaprondai Below is the source text. Κατά δε τον Ήσύχιον οι Θράκες εκαλούντο και Ίωνες και Κάπρονται. «Ιάονες οί Ίωνες. Ένιοι και τους θράκας. «Ίωνες τίνες και τους Θράκας. Κάπρονται εκαλούντο ούτως οί Θράκες»

Esychius writes in an era when the a great number of thracians were fully hellenized. This hellenization makes up for the reason this reference to them occured.

Modern Greek Thrace
Is this the official Coat of arms of Thraki in Ellada? Miko Stavrev 19:50, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes

Thanks. Miko Stavrev 18:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * As far as I am aware, this is not a CoA of the region of Thrace, but rather the emblem of a Greek frigate named "Thrace". Greek regions generally don't have coats of arms or distinctive heraldry, and the particular CoA is definitely "military-style" (flag, Nice of Samothrace, triangular shield etc). Therefore I remove it.Cplakidas 14:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

More on Hellenization Anyway back to the Thracians, here are some Ancient quotes on Greek speaking Thracians :

-- a. "When Seuthes heard all that, he said that he trusted all Athenians, because he knows that between him and them there is a kinship, and thus he considers them as his dear friends."

[Seuthes was the King of Southern Thrace]

(Seuthes' ancestor Teres, and First King of the Thracian Odrysians, was in fact Tereus who married the daughter of the Athenian King Pandion and had lands in Phocis. This happened in the remote antiquity. Events described here take place ca. 400 B.C.)

Source: - Xenophon,‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter II, 31

-- b. (Seuthes replied Maisades was my father, and he ruled the Melanditae, the Thynians and the Tranipsae.[Thracian tribes].

(The Thracian Tribal names are all Hellinic etymologically.)

Source: - Xenophon‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter II, 32

-- c. (Xenophon said We intend to go to a place where the soldiers will be able to find food for themselves. There, we will hear what Aristarchus the Spartan has to say and what you have to propose, and we shall choose to go with whomever proposals' sound more beneficial to us.

(King Seuthes replied I know many villages that are not far away one from the other, where food can be found in abudance.

(Seuthes could speak and understand Attic Hellinic, thus he was able to converse with Xenophon, an Athenian, directly without the intervention of an itepreter.)

Source: - Xenophon,‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 8-10

--- d. When they were close at the gates, and they were preparing themselves to enter and dine, they met a certain Heracleides from Maronia.

(Maronia was a Hellinic City on the Thracian Coast between Abdera and Doriscon Lt. Doriscum. Heracleides was King Seuthes' aid-de-camp.)

Source: - Xenophon‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 16

--- e. Then Seuthes arose, and drunk along with Xenophon all the wine in their cups, and then, together, they shed the last drops of the wine on the ground, as a "sponde".

(A "Sponde", was an Archaic Hellinic Custom, documented to be practised at least from the time of the Trojan War. Achilles, Menelaus, Patroclus, Agamemnon, Diomedes, Odysseus, Hector, Paris, Priamus, in short terms everybody as early as 1260 B.C. to honour the Gods. The practicing of the same custom by the Thracians means that, they had common customs with the Hellines.)

Source: - Xenophon,‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 32

--- f. (Seuthes said Prepare yourselves and wait. When the time is right I shall come with my Peltasts take you and lead you with the help of the Gods.

(Hellines and Thracians had the same Gods, i.e. the twelve Olympian Gods.)

Source: - Xenophon‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 36

--- g. And [thus] as a password, they set the name of the Godess Athena, because of the kinship between Athenians and Tracians.

Source: - Xenophon‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 39

--- h. (The Thynians, one of the Thracian tribes Seuthes and Xenophon wage war against, attack the Hellino-Thracian Army. Book VII, Chapter IV, 12-19)

(And) they even called out the name of Xenophon as well, and challenged him to step out of the (keep) to kill him, otherwise they threatened him that they would burn him where he stands.

(It is clear that even the Thynian tribesmen, commoners in other words, spoke Hellinic. Knowledge of the Hellinic language was not limited to Noblemen only.)

Source: - Xenophon‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter IV, 15

--- i. Because many of the Odrysians left their mountain homes to take part in his [Seuthes'] military operations because they have learned of his achievements.

(Seuthes was the son of the King of the Odrysians, a Thracian tribe that lived in the Thracian mountains, not in the Thracian coast.)

Source: - Xenophon‚-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter IV, 21

CONCLUSION: - There were clearly many ties, linguistic, cultural, racial, as well as religious between the Thracians and the Hellines.

As the evidence of the Archaic Thracian King Tereus tells us, contacts between the mainland Hellines and the Thracians are as old as at least 8th cent. B.C.

Some other connections as posted above can be found in religion:

Pausanias, Description of Hellas 9.30.1 Tells us how the the Thracian women plotted the death of Orpheus, in this same text we also find a list of other Hellinic Gods.

Again in Pausanias, Description of Hellas 7.5.1 We find that only Thracian women were allowed to enter sanctuary of Herakles at Erythrae he also mentions them visiting the temple of Athena at Priene.

We should also note the very interesting find in 2004 by the Bulgarian archaeologist Georgi Kitov.. He found a mask identical to that known as 'Agammemnon's' acompanied by an Olympic Ring in a tomb, which obviously indicate that these were not mere imports.. Based on the fact that only Hellinic "tribes" took part in the ancient Olympics, these finds could finally "link" the Thracians to ancient Hellas and point to the probability of them being a Hellinic tribe or an early Hellinization...

POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article
Hello! Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring, a poll is currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Need links.
Kathryn Ann Sackhoff

Katee Sackhoff

Kara_Thrace

Battlestar_Galactica_%28TV_series%29

Hopiakuta 17:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Cities of Thrace
Dear Khoikhoi: You suggested that “just the larger cities will do”. However, you have removed towns like Smolyan (31,113), Chirpan (19,745), Elhovo (13,120), Kardzhali (50,851), Karnobat (21,882), Nova Zagora 26,530), and Panagyurishte (20,938), while leaving Pythio (734), Lavara (6,905) or Abdera (3,917). For your information, Thrace is unequally divided between Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey in terms of both territory and population: Northern Thrace (Bulgaria): 2,727,035; Western Thrace (Greece): 368,993; Eastern Thrace (bar Istanbul, Turkey): 1,354,658 (population estimates mostly 2000-2005).  Therefore, if your suggestion is to be followed, then please fix a threshold and leave all the larger towns.  (If historical significance is taken into account such as e.g. in the case of Abdera, then the old Black Sea towns would qualify too.) Apcbg 20:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, but my concern is that the list will get too long, and then someone will add all the cities in Turkish and Greece Thrace. Now it looks really uneven and in my opinion...just plain unecessary. &mdash; Khoikhoi 03:02, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The present list does not include all the cities in Bulgarian Thrace either. I do not object shortening the overall list, as long as you apply one and the same standard for the three sub-regions.  As these sub-regions are fairly uneven then the three sub-lists would be uneven too, and rightly so -- the population of Bulgarian Thrace is 7 times that of Greek Thrace!.  You may get the list as long or short as you wish by choosing a lower or higher threshold.  For instance, if you fix the threshold at say 10,000 inhabitants, the combined list would get much shorter than the prent one. Apcbg 05:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright, I see what you mean now. :) How about what you said—10,000? We can try that. Cheers. &mdash; Khoikhoi 06:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There are some problems I would like to point out and help out with.
 * 1) cities lists. If we are going with the broadest definition of Thrace as a region, as apparently has happened and going to include cities of over 10,000, we are going to end up with many more Turkish and Greek cities than currently listed. There seem to be areas of Bulgaria that are not in any current formal Bulgarian "Thrace" administrative polity. If the case is the extent of any empires' and mapmakers broadest definitions of Thrace then this is going to be a big list. Right now we have many cities that in Bulgaria are prmarily considered historically Moesia and E. Roumelia since the arival of the Bulgarians. If we are talking about the distribution of Thracian tribes being the geographic delimiter as also appears to be the case, the some the most famous Thracian populations were in fact in a big chunk of North East Asia Minor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bithynia#History


 * I also do not understand the reason why Bulgarian names were aded to cities currently in Turkey or Greece, yet my addition of Turkish and Greek names to cities listed in Bulgaria were removed.


 * 2) The rich Ottoman history of this area is blank. I do not mean just he history of the Turks there in Ottoman times but the extemely active Greek merchants on the Thrace Black Sea coast (there is a lot of material),a s well as Bularian life during this period.


 * We also of course must dispassionatly not that this was a killling ground of huge proportions with Turks and Greeks being killed by Bulgarians during Ilindin, Bulgarians being killed in response after, everyone killing everyone in the Balkan wars.


 * We don't want the article to dwell or blame one side, but as a result of all that mutual killings/ethnic cleansing the population transfers occured and they were the model of massive population exchanges in 1922-23.


 * 3) there seems to be a huge emphasise on Thracian mercenaries and other strange assertions in the "Culture section.". I wonder about the sources. The empahsis on infantry and "peltasts" is strange since this was in antiquity serious horse country. The Roman references to Thracian legioniares and mercenaries I see are to horsemen. I almost feel I am reading a section from a a ficvtional ancient wargaming text with all the hyperbolic repetive text about how "fierce" and bloodthirsty these people supposedly were.


 * 4) Greek colonies. The Greek colonies are founded and many with relations wiht Greece, Persia and others from the the 6th century on. they appear and are notable in many ancient texts. Why are they after the later Odrysian kingdom?

Should "European Turkey" really link here?
--Greasysteve13 06:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, it should, because Thrace is the most common name for it. Anatolia refers to Asian Turkey. &mdash; Khoikhoi 06:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * But this also refers to Greek and Bulgarian Thrace. I typed European Turkey with Turkey on the mind, not Greece an Bulgaria.--Greasysteve13 07:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess that's probably because Turkish Thrace is the same thing as Eastern Thrace, which redirects here. Northern Thrace and Western Thrace seem to have their own articles. &mdash; Khoikhoi 07:49, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay.--Greasysteve13 10:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well it doesn't now.--Greasysteve13 03:42, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

It does not now, because this page is run by Ultra Nationalist Greeks who can't stand Turks. Maybe you ought to check out your racist Megalo Ideas out the door before posting here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.40.54.0 (talk) 05:53, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Culture Section
The "Culture" section includes a really odd passage with no cites:


 * Thracian society was patriarchal. Polygamy was standard and men considered women placed on earth to please them. [citation needed] Thracians considered death an honor and accepted it as a natural part of life. [citation needed] The Thracians were extremely proud people. If a man's father was murdered, it was considered practical to slaughter the murderer, his family (extended), and his livestock. [citation needed] Also, upon the death of a husband, the wives would fight over who was loved more by the deceased. Usually determined by the winner of a match to the death. The wives would tie their left legs together and fight with strips of cowhide and a staff. The winner of this deathmatch would then commit suicide and be given the honor of being buried at the right hand of her husband. [citation needed]

''Whoa! My spider-sense is tingling!'' I'm guessing this is not legit information. I've removed it for now. If someone finds a source for this, maybe it can be returned; as it is, it just looks silly. --GenkiNeko 15:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Ancient History section
The ancient history section reads in sort of a cobbled-together fashion. It repeats itself a bit, and jumps back and forth in the narrative. I'm going to tag it -- I just wanted to explain why. I would reorganize it myself, but don't have enough time right now. Larry Dunn 14:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I deleted 'north of Greece' because the reference cited [1] says 'north of Thessaly' and NOT 'north of Greece' (which is by the way a very different thing except if it is implied that historic Macedonia was not a part of Greece)--Κλειδοκράτωρ (talk) 12:16, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

MAP
This article has no proper map for people to see the boundaries of Thrace. I propose we incorporate this map: --Waterfall999 08:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Image has been added--Waterfall999 11:19, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

thracian archaeological find

 * 2,400-year-old golden mask unearthed
 * Ling.Nut 20:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Map selection
My map offers more info and is better looking than jigiby's .I suggest we use only mineMegistias (talk) 11:30, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Borders of Thrace
A sock, which was not active around a year, now again under a name ITSENJOYABLE is making disruptive edis, reverting the information from Enciclopedia Britannica about the borders of Thrace without reliable explaination. Please, provide your logical motivation to revert Britannica. Jingby (talk) 12:33, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Please refrain from insulting. Perhaps you mother or your father is a "sock"... Anyway, it were my edits which brought clarity to this article (by using references for the first time it the articles history), including the ones regarding Thrace's borders. ITSENJOYABLE (talk) 12:40, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Was this your logical motivation about reverting my edits referenced with Britannica. Jingby (talk) 12:50, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What's the logic behind pastiche-ing Britannica's vague content? ITSENJOYABLE (talk) 13:21, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Espesially the borders are clearly defined. And the western border between Thracian and Illyrian zones of influence, too. I do not think this controvert the rest from the article or the added references in any way. Jingby (talk) 13:40, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Thracia

 * Thracia should redirect to Roman Thrace, which was Thracia, anywaysMegistias (talk) 10:19, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

added this194.66.226.95 (talk) 12:06, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

German?
Why is the German name of Thrace given in the lead section? Does Thrace have a historic German population? Fishal (talk) 04:19, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Famous trakians???
Mehmed II Ottoman Sultan, born at Edirne in Thrace; he was the Sultan who invaded Constantinople?? Bayezid II Ottoman Sultan?? how these otomans could be trakians for god sake? They are different etno, linguo and antropo-group. I suggest you show sources that some one called these turks trakians or they called themself that way or i will suggest these names for deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 (talk • contribs) 11:47, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Sentence needs fixing
I came here to check on the status of Thrace in the 1st century and found this incomprehensible sentence: "Thrace also lost its independence and became tributary to Rome, while towards the end of the 1st century BC was no longer a client kingdom of the Romans appointed and their kings." What does this mean? Could someone please fix it? Thanks.

Famous Thracians and people from Thrace
To a non-expert like myself, the section heading Famous Thracians and people from Thrace does not make sense.

(a) What is the difference between "Thracians" and "people from Thrace"?

and

(b) If there is a difference, is the difference important enough to justify using both phrases for such a short section?

– Corinne (talk) 20:20, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

The Spartacus bit could use some work. Not only is the paragraph poorly written, but it also makes the claim that Spartacus "[brought] the entire empire to its very end" which is patently untrue. 50.141.103.35 (talk) 23:55, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Agree with comment above. Spartacus was a gladiator who fought in the Thracian style, not a native of Thrace. He was a soldier in the Roman army where he was decorated and promoted. He was court-martialed for his sometimes-poor behavior, such proceedings initiated through the enmity of an officer of rank superior to his. He was convicted, whereupon he chose to become a gladiator rather than be executed. He was sent to a gladiator training facility, where it was decided he be trained in the Thracian style, which employed minimal armor, due to his exquisite physique. Sfruss (talk) 00:06, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The above comment is utter rot, written long, long after the Third Slave Revolt. All we know of Spartacus are his deeds during the revolt, and the very short comments by the contemporary Roman and Greek historians that he was Thracian.  All the later accounts are generally dismissed as pure fiction.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.199.0 (talk) 15:31, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Etymology
This section seems all kinds of messed up.

1. The assertion that Thrace was once called "Europe" and is the origin of the name of the continent doesn't seem reliable. Aside from the source cited, I could find nothing else referencing this. The BBC article cited is not historical or geographic, but a news report about bank notes, the only mention of a Europe/Thrace connection in the caption of an image. Hardly a reliable source for this information.

2. "The region obviously took the name of the principal river there, Hebros, probably from the Indo-European arg "white river"" This sentence is terrible. Is it indicating that the name "Europe" or that the name "Thrace" is derived from the river "Hebros". Secondly, how is this obvious? I am not a linguist, so I see no obvious etymological connection between the words "Hebros" and either "Europe" or "Thrace". If these words are, in fact, etymologically related then the etymology itself should be explained clearer, as the cited source on this explains nothing in this regard. 50.141.103.35 (talk) 23:41, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

I agree with the above, that the BBC article is the only source referring Thrace and Europe as the same thing. In addition, Europe (Εὐρώπη) has definitely a Greek etymology, derived from εὐρύς (wide, broad) and ὤψ/ὠπ-/ὀπτ (face, countenance), but Thrace has not, nor has Hebros. Even the myth of Europa does not mention Thrace at all. Fallenman369 (talk) 18:13, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Article section Thracians and wine
Its earliest form was added by an IP about 6 months back, per this diff -. A mess. Despite subsequent good faith attempts by various editors, it remains tendentious, filled with uncited claims. The material claimed the support of a single reliable source  - a good source, seemingly. But the source makes none of the cited claims. Rather, it explicitly warns against using myth-as-history to assert possible historical developments in viticulture. The section seems to hang by a very slender thread. I'd like to remove it altogether. What do others think? Is ancient Thracian wine-culture sufficiently known and significant to justify having such a section to itself? Wikipedia's Wine article barely mentions Thrace. Haploidavey (talk) 14:21, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I've tagged the section, and the whole article for references - Thrace is an important topic, and this article is sadly insufficient. 50.111.63.109 (talk) 11:06, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Right. Actually, the section on wine might as well go. If sources can be found to justify the heading, all well and good. While I'm here - the Spartacus business is yet another sore point. It's impossible to know whether he was ethnically Thracian or simply a Thracian-type gladiator (though some Roman sources say he was a murmillo type). I guess all we can do is make clear that Roman sources said he was Thracian by birth or ethnicity. Haploidavey (talk) 11:13, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

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Etymology
Thrake Thrace is not Indo-European, cause this Pseudo-Hypothese is unproven and since years refutef. The Tracians are an ancient greek tribe. < Mecedonians < Dorians from Arcadia. Thrancian Dialekt < ancientgreek Dorian Dialekt. Daciens and Getae are Thracian descendants with pelsagian roots. Thracians went to Minor Asia and foundet there Phrygia and named themselves Phrygs and later Trojans. Thracian is in Scythian to find. The word Thrace from the verb throsko to arise up. Ion. Thrax Thressa, dor. Thrax Thrassa, TH = divine + R = streaming, flowing = THR streaming, flowing to the direction Divine. GIve the greek Work Threskia for Religion. Thressa the highpristress of the Cabeirian Mysteries, were thracian women, receiving with Enthusiasm the holy Mania. Verb threomai threo for scremaning. Examples the word water in mac. / thac. is apa, in lith. upe. The Getae is maced. G Getas, myk. Ketas. Trac. / Dor. S an att. K in Sara and Kara for highest end, head. The S / K exchange refutes the propagandistic ideologically Pseudo-indo-european-hypothese. Mak. city Βεργη Berge and the minor asian city Perge Περγη, engl.Bourgh germ. Burg for Fortress. The MAc. Philippos and thr. Bilippos Wilippos PH/B W exchange. Evros from the helleno-pelasgian root EFos Eos Lightbringerin dawn. AF-Jos : Ayge Auge Avge ray of light, gleam. Like in Ayra Aura Avra an Bravo. Evros gleamin Eastwind Dawn stream. It´s not pseudo- Indo-european. The Namens, Genaologys, Theo- and Toponyms are all greek. 2A01:C22:B191:8200:2061:8D5A:31AC:D0A0 (talk) 08:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)