Talk:Tien Gow

A Winner of the September 2005 West Dakota Prize
This entry, one of an unprecedented 52, has won the September 2005 West Dakota Prize, awarded for successfully employing the expression "legend states''" in a complete sentence.

Cheng-tzâ-t'ung
I am interested in further research into the Chinese text. Does anyone know the Chinese native name for the book Cheng-tzâ-t'ung? English transliteration of Chinese words is not a reverable process. Kowloonese 00:53, May 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * May be it was too much to ask for. The above question was not answered in 12 months.  Perhaps, I should lower the bar a little.  Does anyone know the Wade-Giles system?  How is "Cheng-tzâ-t'ung" mapped to pinyin?  Kowloonese 01:05, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I found the following descriptions of Tien Gow via Google. The Chinese text is very similar to the English translation quoted in this article.  The Chinese text didn't specify the source it quoted from, but I bet it was also from this book called Cheng-tzâ-t'ung as quoted by Sir William Henry Wilkinson

牙牌有三十二扇牌，牌面點子排列分佈依照天上辰星次序數目推編制成次序數目. 天牌，二扇，二十四點，象徵天上二十四節氣. 地牌，二扇，四點，象徵東南西北四方位. 人牌，二扇，十六點，象徵人性心理的仁義忠信禮廉恥智是非羞惡惻隱辭讓，十六字. 和牌即鵝牌，二扇，八點，象徵大和元氣流通八節之間，表示四海升平，國泰民安. 梅牌，二扇，二十點，紫梅斗數占卜問卦預測未來國運前程. 以後牌的圖案編制也失孝証.
 * -- Kowloonese 01:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I am 99.99999999% certain that the book you are looking for is the 1627 Zheng Zi Tong (正字通 "Correct Character Mastery") by Zhang Zilie (張自烈) mentioned at Kangxi dictionary.
 * If it is not this book, I can not help you any further; specifically because Zhengzi Tong is precisely how you would convert the Wade (N.B. not Wade-Giles) into Hanyu Pinyin.
 * The reason that it would appear as Cheng-tzâ-t'ung (and, thus, Zhengzitong in Hanyu Pinyin) is that they were obeying one of the conventions of the Wade system (that disappeared as soon as the Wade system was modified by Giles).
 * Also, given the arrogant conventions of European writing about Chinese matters for western consumption at that time (a stance often referred to as "Orientalia"), it is very likely that he was either quoting from a highly reputable Chinese dictionary, such as the Kangxi dictionary, from an ancient glossary such as the Erya, or from a more or less contemporary encyclopaedia such as Sancai Tuhui.
 * All of which, to my mind, almost guarantees that he was alluding to the 正字通. Hope that this helps you Lindsay658 23:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks to Lindsay658, I found the following in Google using her hint.
 * 據《正字通》記載，宋宣和二年（西元1120年），出現了一種名叫“骨牌”的遊戲，並在宋高宗時頒行天下. 當時的骨牌多為牙或獸骨製成，所以骨牌又有“牙牌”之稱.
 * Found another reference to this topic at, search for 骨牌之博 for section on domino games. Kowloonese 00:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Reverted modernized spelling
I reverted the spelling modernization changes for couple of reasons: ( Undid revision 439244246 by 92.21.47.179 ) 1. The word Tien Gow and Pai Gow has entered the English language long time ago before modern Chinese spelling was invented. These words were written in English books by scholars or introduced to the Western communities by early immigrants before there were modernized Chinese spellings. You can annotate the article with a modern pronunciation guide next to the original English words, but you should not change the spelling of the English words themselves. For example, The word Kowtow is an English word that correspond to the Chinese word 叩頭 kòutóu, you cannot go into the Kowtow article and modernize all the spellings of kowtow. This is an English article in the English edition of wikipedia about a Chinese subject. It is NOT a transliteration of an article from the Chinese edition of wikipedia. Therefore, you should leave the article in the original English spelling. Don't turn existing English words into pinyin! 2. If you look into early Western contacts and trade with China before the 18th century, they were made through the ports of Amoy (Today's 廈門), Macau (Today's 澳門) etc. Also look into the history of overseas Chinese immigrants, you will notice that 99% of early Chinese immigrants to the western world 150 years ago came from South China. As a result, most of Chinese based English words like Tea, Ketchup, Kowtow were NOT Mandarin based because the westerners learned about these Chinese words in Hakka, Cantonese, and Amoy etc. These words have entered the English volcabulary centuries before the modern Chinese Mandarin spelling was put in place. Changing all these English words into modern Pinyin spelling is simply WRONG. Tien Gow is a English word introduced to the Western world via Cantonese speaking immigrants, spelling it tianjiu in pinyin does not make sense at all. Kowloonese (talk) 00:07, 12 December 2011 (UTC)