Talk:Titanic: Adventure Out of Time/Archive 1

deleted dialouge
Why did you delete the dialouge of Officer Morrow screaming to everyone that the Carpathia was here and that the player had saved the day?

Credibility
How does the person know for sure whether Carlson's first name is Frank? I've never found out or seen it.


 * If you have subtitles activated, the name will show up in at least one of them, but no character actually says the name. Try saying "How are we going to get the evidence off the ship?" to P.P. on the boatdeck while the ship is sinking and you have not yet collected all the items. The subtitles will read "Frank, if worse comes to worst, give me the evidence." TaintedMustard 15:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, his name is in a postcard in Carlson's London flat.--69.181.253.214 (talk) 04:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Characters
I think a list of important and secondary characters would be a vry useful and interesting addition to this section. What do you think?

Trivia
I've been working on Wikipedia for 2 years and I've never heard any policy against using Trivia sections and in fact as far as I've heard they're encouraged. The section could due with a revision, but I disagree that it should be deleted. 23skidoo 02:46, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Absolutely, the section should stay. Its rather fascinating actually, the way the game and the film tie together. -Husnock 03:55, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Fine, then keep the trivia section. But put trivia in it.  What is in there now is an opinion, an ad, everything that isn't encyclopedic. Want to mention the film?  Mention a fact, like how the film boost the sales of the game, but remove what is there.  MechBrowman 15:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The way I read it, its simply a statement that fans of the film can play the game and see several areas of the ship which were also depicted in the film. Thats not an opinion or an ad, it simple stating some trivia about the game.  Such a hostile tone here over something so minor.  Its best to just leave the trivia section be, I feel. -Husnock 01:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Its the same thing as saying fans of the genre of adventure games can solve a mystery, explore, talk to characters and have fun. Thats not trvia. What is there is not trivia, you might as well mention fans of A Night to Remember can explore the same areas the characters in that film were in.  Why not say you can follow the steps of the real life people on the real Titanic. MechBrowman 17:22, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Version dependency

 * "Some bootleg and earlier versions of the game allow the player, with foreknowledge of the painting's location, to enter the cargo hold much earlier than normal and remove it from the crate before it is stolen."

What is the source for the effect of the version? When I played the game, I got the impression that whether or not the painting had been taken by the time you arrive in the cargo hold depended on a random value, a detail of earlier dialogue, etc. I observed both variations. Alksub 04:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * "The painting may or may not have been stolen from the crate when the player arrives. This apparently depends on whether the Rubaiyat is in the possession of the player at the time. In other words, there is a mutually exclusive relationship between being able to acquire the Rubaiyat and the painting at this stage in the game."


 * I added the above to the article because it was my own experience, but removed it because of doubt over versions. Alksub 01:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I hadn't thought about this in a long time, but I remember being able to get the painting earlier in my version. I thought myself quite smart at the time. ;) This was one of the most memorable games of my childhood. I later got my hands on a copy of Dust and found it equally engrossing. Posala


 * I have been able to reach the painting by means of avoiding Penny on the boat deck warning you of a meeting in progress between Sasha and Zeitel. Using this method, the painting appears more often than not. I don't think, however, that having a bootleg version of the game will give you an advantage. Unless someone can confirm this, I'm going to remove it and replace it with a simple "some versions." Dadadoom 17:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Frustrating
I have found many great pictures of the game online, but I really don't know how to upload them. Can somebody help? PLEASE???!!!!

Love it
Been playing this game since I was 7 years old never gets old JonnyLightning

Greatest Game Ever
I am not a gamer by any stretch of the imagination but this game RULES! Wikipediarul e s 2221 03:22, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Characters
I made several corrections and alterations to this section. In particular, I tried to bring everything into third person. If any second person sentences slipped past me, please see if you can correct them. If you have a problem with any of my content edits (there weren't many of them), then please do not revert the entire edit. Some of the entries were a bit of a mess. TaintedMustard 16:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Superfluous trivia
I'm removing the following bit of trivia.

"Fans of the 1997 Titanic film can use the game's free-roaming feature to explore some of the areas of the ship that are featured in the movie. It is possible to knock on the door of Rose's cabin (but not enter), get close to the bow of the vessel, visit the boiler room, walk down the Grand Staircase, take an elevator, walk along service corridors similar to those seen in the film, visit the bridge, see the automobile in the cargo hold, and explore assorted common areas such as lounges that are featured in the film. With knowledge of the available areas of Titanic presented by the game, it is possible to follow the movements of the film's protagonists to a degree."

The game has nothing to do with the movie. The only similarity is that both take place on the same ship. Cuervo7 23:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC+1)

I've been playing this game since I was 7, the same year Titanic came out, that was one of my biggest disappointments with the movie, it had nothing to do with the game. I think the movie would have been a whole lot more intersting if it was the same concept of the game instead of a sappy love story, how original.

Clean up
I have cleaned much of this article up. If you do not agree with my edits, you can start off by reading WP:NOT WP:VERIFY along with WP:OWN. I have also added the unreferenced tag as this article cites no sources. This article was written as a game-guide or walkthrough, which Wikipedia is not. In depth details about unimportant characters, instructions on seeing deleted scenes, locations of people, etc, are unencyclopedic. Furthermore, your opinion as an editor has no place on Wikipedia articles. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia of verifiable facts, it is not for "probably" and "possibly" and other speculation. Please do not revert this article without first discussing it here. SpigotMap 05:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it was very selfish and petty of you to mutilate the article the way you did. If people enjoyed reading those contributions, whoa re you to tell us we can't? You were the one that should have disucssed it before removing all that work. Sh76us 23:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As I said on your talk page, this article is only to get a general overview of the game, not detail every step of the game. There are other places for that, and this isn't it. Wikipedia has policies against things like walkthroughs, game play/in universe information, and trivia. Spigot  Map  00:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow, let me just say thank you for the work you put into cleaning this up. I have been watching this article degenerate for months and kept meaning to tidy it up, but I just never found the time or motivation. It looks ten times better now! —dustmite 00:40, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately it was a lot of deletion. I played this game many years back and decided to look it up and was amazed no one had found the state of horror it was in. I hope it doesn't discourage people from building on the article, but the way it was looked as if people just kept adding trivial information here and there. I did most of this cleanup a few months ago by the way :D. Spigot  Map  00:44, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Trivia, again
I will be removing the trivia section unless it is cleaned up. I'm not to sure what could be used out of it but people need to understand that Wikipedia is not a game guide, not a fan site, and not a repository of facts. How is anything under the "trivia" section useful to someone who came to decide if they want to play the game or not? I'm sure much of the trivia can be found on a game guide site or something similar, if they decide to play. SpigotMap 08:54, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:SHIPEXT1.JPG
Image:SHIPEXT1.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Massive gutting of the article
Below is a LARGE chunck of information which was cut under the guise that it was a walkthrough or game guide. Some of it is very good material which can be re-incorporated in the article and this should be examined. Looking at the edit history, this was all cut over the summer with no one noticing. The one person who protested was attacked from two sides and never came back to debate the matter further. Here is the material in case someone wants to restore it.

P.S.- this can probably go on a temp article page if anyone has a major problem with it being listed here. -OberRanks (talk) 23:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Objectives
After learning of the major characters and items in the game, the agent is faced with the following five objectives to win the game


 * 1) Obtain the Rubaiyat
 * 2) Obtain the rare painting
 * 3) Obtain the secret notebook
 * 4) Obtain the Lambeth diamonds
 * 5) Escape the Titanic on a lifeboat before it sinks

The Rubaiyat
Most walkthroughs and hint sites suggest that the player let Vlad steal the Rubaiyat early in the game, which happens if the agent does a favor for Vlad (getting a package for him) before going to the Rubaiyat’s location to acquire it. The location of the Rubaiyat is revealed in one of two ways: Either decoding a secret telegram, or going to the Turkish bath and using steam to see the location written on a mirror.

Once the Rubaiyat is discovered in one of the Titanic's coal chutes, the player can move it to an alternate location so that the Serbian national Vlad will fruitlessly search for it and eventually abandon his pursuit. The player can then acquire the Rubaiyat much earlier in the game than is normally suggested. It should be noted that, if the Rubaiyat is taken before Vlad searches for it, Vlad will kill the player to acquire it.

Taking the Rubaiyat early in the game alters the course of events and dialogue of the characters as well as eliminating the need to solve at least two later puzzles. For this reason, players are urged to let Vlad take the Rubaiyat (he is bribed at the end of the game to give it back) thus experiencing the “full” version of the storyline.

The Painting
The painting the player seeks is hidden in a crate in the Titanic’s cargo hold. The player is led to believe that it can be taken from the hold and, after stealing the keys to a motorcar (whose headlights shine to reveal the art box in question) the painting is revealed to have been either taken already, or still there. More often than not, the painting has already been stolen. Some versions of the game allow the player, with foreknowledge of the painting's location, to enter the cargo hold much earlier than normal. This significantly alters the game's progression and causes a large amount of dialogue and puzzles to be omitted in later scenes.

Towards the end of the game, the player learns that a pair of Irish immigrants acquired the painting (if it was already taken when the player arrived at the cargo hold) from Willie, Colonel Zeitel's protegé who is later murdered. The immigrants give the painting back in exchange for a kidnapped baby, stolen by the wife of Andrew Conkling. Conkling is the head of a major steel company that helped build the Titanic. Conkling’s wife returns the baby due to a scandalous letter which reveals the steel on the Titanic was substandard, making the risk of a sinking in a serious collision more likely.

The painting, whose canvas conceals secret military plans, is a landscape portrait of Vienna, Austria. It is shown at the end of the game to be a work of Adolf Hitler. Depending on whether or not the player gets the painting off the Titanic, Hitler becomes a world famous artist instead of a Nazi dictator.

The Notebook
The notebook, containing the identities of Stalin, Lenin, and Trotsky, is revealed through character dialogue (or, depending the course of play, a photograph) and is eventually found to be hidden at the top of one of Titanic’s smokestacks. Willie apparently hid it when Titanic made its last stop in Ireland (revealed by a photographer on board, who took a picture of the incident, or the American businessman saying he saw him there). It is still somewhat unclear why Willie put the notebook on the smokestack.

Once the notebook is acquired, it is either surrendered to the German Colonel Zeitel (who then shoots the player, although not fatally), or the player gives a knockout-gas pen to Zeitel that then allows him to escape with the notebook. However, on descending the smokestack, once more the player will encounter Vlad, who viciously knocks the player unconscious with a large wrench. He will then take the notebook from you. If Vlad already has the Rubaiyat and he steals the notebook, then it becomes impossible to win the game. Most walkthroughs and hint sites suggest letting the Colonel shoot the player and steal the notebook, which may then be retrieved after disarming a bomb in the Colonel's Titanic state room.

The Diamonds
The diamonds which the player seeks are found to be locked away in a Russian doll by the art dealer Sasha Barbicon. The player must first acquire a fake diamond necklace by way of an old love affair now turned nobility, break into Sasha’s stateroom (by way of disabling the cabin’s power), and finally solve a puzzle to open the doll and take the actual necklace. It should be noted that if the player fails to steal the real necklace and allows Vlad to steal the Rubaiyat in the earlier sequence, it becomes impossible to win the game. If the player does not replace the diamonds with the fake version, Sasha will kill the player once the theft is discovered. Interestingly, in earlier versions of the game, the player may use his map (which contains "hotspots", or shortcuts that will transfer the player immediately to a location on the ship when clicked on) to "teleport" out of Sasha's suite and to some other location on the ship. This will result in a rather interesting (though pointless) arrangement whereby the player retains both the fake and real diamonds with no penalty.

Escaping the Titanic
The final portion of the game takes place while the Titanic is sinking. Unlike the first section of the game, you no longer have the luxury of exploring and getting sidetracked: you are under a strict time limit. The main character must complete his mission before the last lifeboat leaves (50 minutes in game time, and a few minutes in real time). The player must acquire all of the needed items as well as succeed in getting a place on a lifeboat, although the player can board a lifeboat before all the items are acquired, thus finishing the game but not winning it.

There are several ways to accomplish escaping the Titanic, with the most secure being to acquire a lifeboat pass in a hand of blackjack from the Frenchman Riviera. The player may also get on to a lifeboat by helping certain passengers or conversing with the crew. In the last minutes of the game, the German Colonel reappears to offer a "deal" to the player, seemingly adding another objective to the game which is to save the agent's former lover who the Colonel has poisoned. It should be noted that you do not have to save the agent's former lover to win the game. But if the player agrees to any of the Colonel's deals, then the Colonel will obtain the painting, and it will appear impossible for the player to win the game. However, the Colonel will then make a second deal, offering to trade you back the painting for the lifeboat pass, enabling you to win the game (provided that you find another way off the ship).

There is yet another method of escaping the ship, however it may mean not winning. Throughout the game, the player encounters a couple by the surname of Gorse-Jones. They will, on three separate occasions, engage the player in a lengthy conversation (although the player seldom gets a chance to talk). While the ship is sinking, the player will encounter them for a fourth time on the boat deck; they give the option of entering a boat. Often, however, not all objectives have been completed, so leaving at this moment would allow you to complete the game but not reach a desirable ending. But, if you avoid them on deck and get the object you need and come back to them when you have gotten it, you can get on a lifeboat.

Throughout the last part of the game, you will be frequently interrupted by various cutscenes showing the Titanic gradually sinking in various stages. After the character completes his mission, several ending scenes are available depending on whether or not the agent acquired all of the necessary items before leaving the ship. In addition, if the player stays on the Titanic for too long, the ship will sink and the agent will die.

In the final section of the game, many areas which were accessible in the first part are closed off. The Grand Staircase is inaccessible below C-Deck, as are the Turkish Baths and forward Third Class cabins, the Cargo Hold, Squash Court, and all of the Boiler Rooms and Engine Control Rooms. The Turbine Room on G-Deck is an exception and is accessible via the Second Class Stairs. Vlad can be found here over the dead body of Sasha. One new area which is open which was not available in the first part of the game is the First Class Lounge on A-Deck - Trask and Zeitel can be found in here before 2:00 AM.

The Rubaiyat or the real Lambeth diamonds can be acquired from Vlad in the Turbine Room on G-Deck, after giving him Claris Limehouse's shawl (this can be acquired by visiting the First Class Lounge beforehand). However, you can only exchange for one item; therefore, if the player has failed to obtain both the Rubaiyat and the necklace before the sinking, then you will only be able to exchange for one of them, thus being unable to win the game.

Where you obtain the notebook depends on whether Zeitel or Vlad got it at the smokestack. If you surrendered it to Zeitel, it can be acquired from Colonel Zeitel's cabin, C-59. Upon travelling there, it is discovered that the Colonel has planted a bomb in his room along with the notebook and locked you inside. The bomb does not actually have to be defused correctly; you can simply blow yourself up, click "Give Up" and you will appear back in Zeitel's cabin with the key and the notebook. Alternatively, if you gassed Zeitel and Vlad took it, the notebook can be obtained from Vlad himself in the Turbine Room in exchange for the shawl. But remember, the player can only exchange the shawl for one item. Thus it is possible, in unique circumstances, for Vlad to have the Rubaiyat, the notebook, and the real diamonds at the end of the game. This would leave the player with a critical decision of which item is most important. Though, technically, it is already impossible to win the game

Game Endings
The game offers a variety of cutscenes at the end of the game, once the player has succeeded in leaving the Titanic. The course of history may also be changed, depending on how many items the player got off the ship. In the endgame sequence, the time shifts forward back to April 14, 1942. The main character narrarates what has happened in the thirty years that followed the sinking with the "Memories" book.

Somewhat ironically, leaving the ship with none of the key items would actually prove to be better than leaving with just some of them, since the resulting endings are actually worse than history's actual course and result in England being invaded.

Failed to obtain Painting, Notebook, Rubaiyat and/or Real Necklace

History unfolds exactly as normal. World War I occurs, the Communists take power in Russia, and Hitler becomes dictator of Germany and starts World War II. The player is killed in the original bomb explosion seen at the start of the game.

Obtained Rubaiyat and Real Necklace only

World War I is averted but the Communists take power in Russia and Hitler topples Kaiser Wilhelm II and comes to power in Germany in 1927. Germany uses the additional years under Nazi rule to develop the atomic bomb and eventually starts the Great War (Our World War II) in 1939, but with a fully operational nuclear arsenal. The player dies in a nuclear bomb attack on London, England.

Obtained Notebook and Rubaiyat or Real Necklace or neither

World War I occurs as normal, but the Czar stays in power in Russia, meaning that the strong army the USSR would have otherwise built up never amounted to anything. World War II starts on schedule and a weak, faceless Russia falls easily to Nazi Germany in 1939. This gives Germany the freedom to concentrate on Western Europe, and the Nazis invade England and the British Empire is forced to surrender. Winston Churchill is executed, and the player dies when Nazi stormtroopers raid his apartment.

Obtained Notebook, Rubaiyat and Real Necklace

World War I does not occur and the Czar stays in power in Russia, meaning that the strong army the USSR would have otherwise built up never amounted to anything. Adolf Hitler topples the Kaiser in 1927 and the Great War (Our World War II) starts in 1939. A weak, faceless Russia falls easily to Nazi Germany. This gives Germany the freedom to concentrate on Western Europe, and the Nazis invade England and the British Empire is forced to surrender. Winston Churchill is executed, and the player dies when Nazi stormtroopers raid his apartment.

Obtained Painting and Rubaiyat or Real Necklace or neither

World War I occurs on schedule, but Hitler does not rise to power in Germany (having instead become a famous artist). The Communists take power in Russia and all of Western Europe and the British Empire falls to the wave of European Communism and becomes part of a Bolshevik Empire. The player is killed in his apartment by a Russian shock trooper.

Obtained Painting, Rubaiyat and Real Necklace

World War I does not occur, the Kaiser stays in power and Hitler does not rise to power in Germany (having instead become a famous artist). The Communists take power in Russia and all of Western Europe and the British Empire falls to the wave of European Communism and becomes part of a Bolshevik Empire which is later known as the USSR. The player is killed in his apartment by a Russian shock trooper.

Obtained Painting, Notebook and Rubaiyat or Real Necklace or neither

World War I occurs on schedule, but Hitler does not rise to power in Germany (having instead become a famous artist). Also, the Czar stays in power in Russia, meaning that the USSR would never amount to anything. This indirectly allows communism to take hold in Germany instead of in Russia. All of Europe, Russia and the British Empire falls to the wave of European Communism and becomes part of a German Communist Empire. The player is killed in his apartment by a German shock trooper. However, this ending does not make sense because nothing would suggest a German Communist Empire. The only difference between this ending and the optimal ending (see below) is the unsuccessful obtainment of the Rubaiyat and/or the real necklace. The difference between gain and loss of Rubaiyat/real necklace directly affects WWI and has nothing to do with a German Communist Empire. Though technically one could claim that the Germans failure in WWI (which exists in this ending but not in the optimal one) caused instability and evenually led to a German Communist Empire.

Obtained Painting, Notebook, Rubaiyat and Real Necklace

The optimal ending. World War I is averted, the Communists in Russia are stamped out and never seize power, Adolf Hitler becomes a famous artist, and World War II never comes to pass. The player awakens in London in 1942 to a world of peace and retirement from a successful career.

Deaths you can encounter
 * 1) Attempting to leave the Boiler Room with the Rubaiyat before Vlad leaves; he will confront you as you attempt to climb the stairs and shoot you.
 * 2) Attempting to leave Sasha's cabin with the real diamonds, without replacing them with the fake Georgia gave you. Sasha will catch you in his cabin, take the necklace back and shoot you.
 * 3) Failure to properly disable the bomb in Zeitel's cabin during the sinking; bomb will explode, blowing a hole in the side of the ship. The player presumably dies in the explosion.
 * 4) Repeatedly refuse to help Zeitel when he asks for the painting in return for the antidote for Georgia during the sinking; Zeitel will grow too impatient, draw his gun and shoot you.
 * 5) Repeatedly hassle Third Officer Morrow demanding to get on a lifeboat; he will panic and shoot you (presumably).
 * 6) Fail to escape the sinking Titanic; after staying around long enough, you will see the cutscene of the ship sinking, after which the game over screen appears.
 * 7) The seaman on the boatdeck, where Penny is located, threatens to shoot you and demands you to standback.


 * I removed the information, and I did so because it is in violation of WP:NOT and WP:FICT. All this information is in-depth, in-universe information with no real world context. This article is meant to be a summary of the game, not a detailed walkthrough. Spigot  Map  00:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:TITANICAOOT.jpg
Image:TITANICAOOT.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:TitanicVideoGame.jpg
Image:TitanicVideoGame.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 02:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Titanic Tourguides
The link to Barracuda is dead. I've not removed it, but added a sentence below it about them. I've searched Google, Yahoo, Lycos, and even tried AskJeeves, but to no avail. It seems that there is no way to download them today. They're lost to the ages. If anyone can find a working link to a site from which you can download them, feel free to edit the section and post back here.

VonV (talk) 23:32, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

External Link
This link
 * Titanic - Adventure Out of Time a dedicated fanblog

is on the French Wikipedia yet it is a blog that is very comprehensive about the game. Wikipedia stresses that blogs should be normally be avoided when editing a page but the site seems worthy enough and directly linked to the article. I thought it best to see what other people thought. Vkrippen (talk) 20:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Since I'm the author of the french article, I want to precise that the blog is used to explain how the game works and what is its story : in this case, I think it can be used. But for the conception of the game, and its reception, I think other sources are better (I found some you can see on the french article and I'm still working on it sometimes). LittleTony87 (talk) 20:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)