Talk:Tkvarcheli

I've written OchamchirA intentionally. It's named this way on the UN map (see Abkhazia article) and it seems to me that it's the same situation as with SUkhumi. Alaexis 18:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * But we have the main article at Ochamchire. Google & Google Books also yield (slightly) more hits for OchamchirE. --KoberTalk 18:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The original article is named OchamchirE just because User:D.Papuashvili named it this way. GoogleBooks give more results for Ochamchira, actually (3 more books) and Google gives about the same number for both (if wikipedia is excluded). Alaexis 19:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Current population
According to the census data 2003 the population of Tqwarchal (town) is 4.786
 * I've added this info but some kind of source should also be brought. Alæxis¿question? 15:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Btw, why have you replaced K with Q in the town name? Alæxis¿question? 15:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Because in abkhazian there is q {like arabic qaf).E.g. if we write Iraq with q, why shouldn't we do the same with Tqwarchal, especcialy giving abkhaz name.
 * Because the current consensus is to use the Russian versions for the names of settlements. sephia karta 12:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It was about the Abkhaz transliteration. Q probably should be used there (I'm saying probably because there's no WP-accepted system of transliterating Abkhaz). Alæxis¿question? 12:27, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, sorry for typing prematurely. Every transliteration I know uses either q, q' or q’ for that. I'll see whether I can come up with a proposal for a standard transliteration. sephia karta 12:35, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Look there also. I'm not 100% sure that it's the Latin alphabet they used in 1920s but according to it this letter is transliterated as k with an above dash and not as q. Alæxis¿question? 12:47, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link, I din't know of that. sephia karta  12:54, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Another option is to use IPA btw Alæxis¿question? 12:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

requested sources
[http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_282.shtml The Georgians were not only publishing threats, but firing back: on 14 December 1992 they shot down a Russian Army Mi-8 helicopter by SA-14 MANPADs. The downed helicopter was - in the view of such a danger - escorted by two Su-25s and another Mi-8, but these did not prevent it from being shot down, with the loss of three crew-members and 58 passengers, mainly Russian refugees.]

Indeed, it was the downing by Georgian forces in December 1992 of a Russian Mi-8 helicopter evacuating women and children from that city that raised the level of general malevolence in the war and catalyzed more concerted Russian military intervention on the Abkhaz side. Alæxis¿question? 05:44, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * So? Which of these "numerous" sources prevents us from using the word "allegedly"? The HRW report to which you refer in any Abkhazia-related discussion uses the word "reportedly". Also, we have official Georgian denial.--KoberTalk 05:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Since there are two sources that don't have doubts, one uses the word reportedly and not a single one according to which the helicopter was downed by someone else then, according to WP:UNDUE we shouldn't use the word 'allegedly'. Alæxis¿question? 05:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * 'allegedly' does not violate WP:UNDUE. All significant viewpoints are already represented.--KoberTalk 06:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * And please don't engage in edit warring and achieve a consensus first. You are close to the violation of 3RR and are provoking me to do the same.--KoberTalk 06:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It does. It makes reader to think that the most popular viewpoint is that the helicopter was shot down allegedly by Georgians and this is not true. Alæxis¿question? 06:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your mission of truth telling, but you last sentence does not make any sense. "allegedly" indicates something that has never been confirmed and this is true.--KoberTalk 06:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What about the story of Basaev's men playing football with the heads of Georgians? Who has confirmed it? I suggest you to apply the same standards in all cases. Alæxis¿question? 06:17, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You have doubts regarding Basayev's cruelty? Huh. It seems you share the view of those Russians who regard Shamil as a freedom fighter and hero when he slaughtered Georgians and terrorist when he fought Russia, right? --KoberTalk 06:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Btw, the Battle of Gagra article clearly states that Basayev's deeds are "according to several eyewitnesses accounts".--KoberTalk 06:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have no doubts about his cruelty. I have some doubts that they played football with the heads (although I don't rule it out altogether). This is not the only example btw. Many claims in the article about the war aren't and cannot be fully verified. So the only thing we can do is examining reliable sources. If something is written in one of them and isn't contradicted by others then it's suitable for Wikipedia. If there's a contradiction then both variants should be given. Occasionally conflicting sides' POV could also be included. Alæxis¿question? 06:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Alaexis, please stop reverting me blindly. I have not contributed even a single word to the Gagra article and can say nothing about it. As for the Sokhumi entry, it has a huge history section, covering all periods of the city's history. So, I don't really see your point.--KoberTalk 06:14, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Before accusing me of owning articles please remember that one has to reach consensus when making considerable changes.
 * The history of Tkvarcheli is shorter than the history of Sukhumi, isn't it?

Sukhumi was a centre of the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict from 1989 to 1993 which damaged much of the city. During the Abkhaz siege of Sukhumi (1992-1993), the city and its environs suffered almost daily air strikes and artillery shellings, with heavy civilian casualties.[8] On September 27, 1993 the battle for Sukhumi was concluded by a full-scale campaign of the ethnic cleansing against its majority Georgian population (see Sukhumi Massacre), including members of Abkhaz government (Zhiuli Shartava, Raul Eshba, etc) and mayor of Sukhumi Guram Gabiskiria. Although the city has been relatively peaceful and partially rebuilt, it is still suffering the after-effects of the war, and it has not regained its earlier ethnic diversity.
 * This is a quote from that article. I don't see why the article about Tkvarcheli shouldn't contain the info it contained. Alæxis¿question? 14:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Then go ahead and move the entire Battle of Tkvarcheli article here. You are just trying to focus the scope of the article on one incident. --KoberTalk 14:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't know you started it actually. It hasn't been found by the bot or announced yet. Alæxis¿question? 14:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I've linked it from here, I guess. --KoberTalk 14:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Apparently I haven't noticed the link. Alæxis¿question? 14:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

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