Talk:Tofu/Archive 2

Suspect citation
Is it me or should the feces mention just added be backed up with a citation? Badagnani 02:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Definitely should be backed by citation if it appears again. Edit was by anon and was probably vandalism. MichaelBluejay 09:28, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Established history of tofu needs expansion
Links to works by Shurtleff, William and Aoyagi, Akiko provides much of the information. Somebody just needs to go summarize and then key out the information. Sjschen 00:06, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * This point needs to be brought up again. I added the word "probable" to indicate that the Chinese origin of tofu is not proven, but I think someone deleted it, or else I did something wrong when I made the edit... Dianachristine 17:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Someone removed "probable." The name is Chinese and I think it's pretty much universally acknowledged that all countries who have tofu got this thing from the Chinese (just like they borrowed Chinese characters). Badagnani 17:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Vietnamese name
Why does the Vietnamese name just added differ in spelling from the spelling in the title of the Vietnamese language Wikipedia article on this subject? Badagnani 02:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I am a Vietnamese and this is the first time I learn that tofu has tào phở as name! My only explanation is that probably tào phở is how the north Vietnamese pronounce the Chinese doufu. It appears that the Vietnamese article was written by a North Vietnamese who also used a north Vietnamese name for soybean (đậu tương). Other Vietnamese names for tofu are đậu phụ and đậu khuôn. Đậu phụ sounds quite similar to doufu. Khuôn (mold) reflects the fact that the product is shaped in a mold. For dòuhuā, the Vietnamese name is đậu hủ ([soy]bean in jar), the name hủ indicates that the soft tofu is made and carried around in an earthenware jar. [mirrordor] 24 March 2007

Welcome! If you find anything that needs to be added in the article, please go ahead and fix it (if you're sure, and maybe you could consult some dictionaries). I know that a lot of Chinese characters can be pronounced and spelled in 5+ different ways in Vietnamese. Badagnani 07:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Common dishes, taupok
Common tofu dishes should be added into the article such as Mapo Doufu, fried tofu etc., and why is there no mention of taupok a type of dried tofu. I'm not sure what's the English name for taupok, if not could one add it into the section of this article. --Ter e nce Ong 09:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Taupok is fried. It's the fukenese/taiwanese/min-nanese way of saying "豆泡" or rather "dòupào". The common recipe part is a good idea, you could try to start the "common dishes" section in the Eastern and Western uses part if you wish. Sjschen 03:25, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hold on, I just checked the article and mapo doufu is already mentioned. If you'd like, go ahead and add the Minnanese (and Cantonese, while you're at it) names of whatever dishes you'd like.  Badagnani 06:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey is taupok the same as mapo doufu??? I have a friend whose dad manufacture and sell taupok in South-east Asia and China. His taupok doesn't look the same as the mapo doufu which u mentioned. I believe i will get more details from my friend regarding taupok. Thanks.

p/s: i just wanted to clarify the differences between taupok and mapo doufu. no hard feelings. (Luffy487 03:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC))

Tone
Is the "fu" in "tofu" fourth tone or fifth (neutral) tone? We have it both ways in the article. Badagnani 06:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * In my Chinese dictionary it is "dòufu", so it's the neutral tone. "Fu" itself is third tone (falling rising). LDHan 12:39, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Burmese unicode
I don't really know Myanmar, but would it be OK to use the Unicode text "တဖိုးူ" instead of the picture ?


 * That was added to solve the problem that what you typed above (and what existed before) shows up simply as six identical thick vertical black lines, at least on most computers. Badagnani 09:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, does anyone know what is up with the other Burmese name ? I'm not able to find the "bracket"-enclosed character (nor any combining characters which would create it from "ဟ") either in my Unicode character map nor in the article on the Burmese alphabet.


 * You could check with the person who made this edit; I believe s/he may be User:Hintha (a Burmese-language specialist), if my memory serves me correctly. Badagnani 09:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Nutritional section cleanup
There appears to be a whole bunch of positive and negative health effects noted in the Nutritional section. Perhaps some cleanup is in order? Sjschen 06:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Etymology
Does anyone know when did the term "Tofu" enter the English language? I remember this thing is called "bean curd" in the US back in the late 1970s. And gradually the term "Tofu" became more popular and eventually became English. When did this word first show up in an English dictionary? Kowloonese 03:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It may have entered English earlier as this article claims 1880: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=tofu This is interesting too: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=soy  Badagnani 03:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This one claims 1875-1880: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tofu Maybe U.S. contact (via Perry?) with Japan could explain the these and other Japanese words entering English with such prevalence (including many terms that were originally Chinese)?  Badagnani 03:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

From Oxford English Dictionary: Tôfu is made by pounding the soy beans after soaking in water. Trans. Asiatic Soc. Japan VIII, p399, 1880.

The larger part of the leguminous food in the Japanese diet consists of the preparations of soy beans, such as miso, shoyu and tofu. Bull. U.S. Dept. Agric. CLIX. p46, 1905.

Two hawks have raided the tofu. BLUNDEN, Mind's Eye, p109, 1934.

Tofu (bean-curd) is made by soaking soy beans in water, mashing them, straining the mass through cloth and solidifying with the addition of magnesium chloride. K. TEZUKA Japanese Food p28, 1936.

Arrange all tofu strips in the casserole and cover with half of the cheese. Sunset, April, 214/2, 1979

In the United States,..tofu has become an ‘in’ food. Guardian newspaper (UK) 14 Aug. 7/1, 1981.

So the use of "tofu" in an English language publication dates from at least 1880, but that's not the same as "the term "Tofu" entering the English language". I would suggest "tofu" only became common in English in the last few decades, before that if it was used much at all outside the context of Japanese culture or Japanese food, it would have been recognised as a Japanese word. LDHan 15:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The popularity of the macrobiotic diet among "health food" enthusiasts in North America over the past 40 (?) years shouldn't be underestimated either; a number of other Japanese foods (like "seitan"), and consequently their Japanese names, gradually achieved recognition in North America due to their promotion by macrobiotic practitioners. I'm not sure if tofu is included in the macrobiotic diet but I think it is.  Macrobiotic people would probably have used the Japanese names for things rather than their English translations ("tofu" instead of "bean curd," "seitan" instead of wheat gluten, "tamari" or "shoyu" instead of "soy sauce", "adzuki bean" instead of "red bean," "kombu" instead of "kelp," "dashi" instead of "broth," etc. There has been no similar culinary movement from China to promote Chinese culinary terms, and the Chinese who have come to North America generally anglicize their terms (maybe in the belief that Americans would never be able to pronounce them).  The terms that are left untranslated from Chinese are often left in various non-standardized romanizations of various Cantonese or other southern Chinese dialect versions).  Whatever the case, the link above shows that the words "soy" and "soybean" came from Japanese into English at least a couple of hundred years ago, due apparently to early Dutch contacts with the Japanese.  Badagnani 16:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I thank everyone for providing some much research result here. This place is really a great place to learn. I guess the word really becomes an English word instead of a transliteration of a Japanese term only after the item itself became the 'in' food in 1981. So I guess 1981 is the date that I was looking for. That is consistent with what I experienced back in the 1970s. Kowloonese 23:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You're right. A lot of us are interested in this related issue as well, because I think a lot of the issues you bring up are valid ones.  Badagnani 00:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

This IS some great research. It explains why there are two terms; Bean curd and tofu, to describe thes same thing, the former being the Chinese literal translation and the latter being the English integrated Chinese/Japanese word. However, I don't think the English use of literal translations has just to do with becoming familiar with a foreign item or concept. I personally have always attributed it to the lessing "self-centricity" in Western culture in the 1960's and 1970's, an increasing acceptence of foreign things without needing to relate it to western concepts, as well as the globalization of the English language. Sjschen 04:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * To give an example of what you're talking about, the djembe has been well known among North American "drum circle" folks for at least 15 years. Everyone knows this Mandinka name for the instrument and everyone calls it that, though most people don't play traditional Mandinka rhythms on it.  However, there are probably hundreds of other drums from Africa whose names are unknown to North Americans.


 * Similarly, the names "chow mein," "lo mein," "Kung Pao," etc. are well known (and in not too-horrible pronunciations, though the tones are omitted), but for "duck sauce," "soy sauce," "spare ribs," "egg roll," "straw mushroom," etc. the English words are always used and no non-Chinese people know the actual Chinese words. So it's a question of exposure.  The djembe was promoted as a unique item--a djembe--and not simply as an "African drum."  Similarly, Chinese restaurateurs chose to use Chinese names for specific, "untranslatable" (?) dishes while preferring to translate other things into English.  Badagnani 05:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Green bean tofu?
What is this green bean tofu Rmalloy just added to the article? Is it green bean jelly, like nokdumuk? Badagnani 03:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems to have been removed, but there's a type of soft green tofu available in japan that I think is called "Edamame Tofu", which is apparently made from fresh soybeans. I think it tastes wonderful, and I would be interested to learn more about it.  Could this be the same thing?Ccrrccrr 01:22, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, we definitely need info about this. We have in the article that tofu is "usually" made from dried soybeans and less frequently made from fresh soybeans. I was beginning to doubt that fresh soybeans were ever used, due to the fact that we'd never found any evidence of that, but it's good to know! Would you like to add the info? Badagnani 03:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this what you're talking about? 枝豆豆腐 (or 枝豆の豆腐, 枝豆と豆腐, or 豆腐と枝豆?

http://kuzumi.jugem.jp/?month=200607

http://www.miyo-cook.com/recipe_2005.08.htm

http://www.osaka-cpa.or.jp/osaka-jin/naiyou/osakajin/jin9909.html

http://www.tamarizuke.co.jp/seikan/dia/200508.htm

http://static.flickr.com/62/223622263_0f86f51872.jpg

http://www.kobe-dai.com/ryouri/enlargement/img/29.jpg

http://health.suntory.co.jp/goma_recepi/sm_2.html

http://www.oisix.com/ShouhinShousai.00013529.o.htm

http://www.wakodo.co.jp/company/release/20061004_100menu.html

Badagnani 03:56, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've added some text about it. Check it for accuracy and pick a representative photo or two and I'll add superscript photo links after the text. Badagnani 04:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Cantonese Slang?
I have been trying to track down any sources that can refernce the slang use of "mash tofu" in Cantonese for lesbian sex. The first mention of "mash tofu" in the tofu article was on 15:46, 23 December 2005 by the user Hanchi without any references cited. Searching google only turns up websites that reference back to Wikipedia or utilize an identical quote from Wikipedia. I would like to request that this usage be cited correctly or be removed since it does not explain it's usage in reference to the topic of tofu. Any comments on this matter would be appreciated. 71.176.130.199 22:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * We have a lot of Cantonese-speaking users; why don't we ask them? The first question is, though, did you search using Chinese characters or the English term?  I don't think the time-honored usage "eat tofu" is disputed but I have never heard the "mash tofu" reference before and it is possible it was just made up, or a very limited or very recent usage.  Badagnani 22:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Western/Eastern
What year are we in? 1870? Are these archaic terms really appropriate in this day and age?

Author mistaken about seitan?
The author says in the lead that "Wheat gluten, or seitan, in its steamed and fried forms, is often mistakenly called "tofu" in Asian or vegetarian dishes." I disagree with the "often", and don't believe this sentence belongs in the article in any case. I have never encountered, or heard of, a single instance of seitan being called tofu either in a recipe or in a restaurant. This, despite having been a vegetarian since 1971 and having been in scores of restaurants (vegetarian and non-vegetarian; Asian and non-Asian; macrobiotic and non-macrobiotic; in half a dozen states in the U.S.A) in which tofu dishes were served. Brief Googling failed to find any reference to instances of confusion between seitan and tofu in any place other than this article. Thus it seems that while perhaps the author has observed an incident or incidents in which seitan was misidentified as tofu, there is no justification for regarding this as a common mistake. In general this article seems quite well done, which makes this reference to seitan even more surprising. Publius3 19:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it should have been editted to add or clarify that when Asians are describing seitan, they say it's similar to "tofu" in the same way as pork is similar to chicken. (-: Maybe they aren't selling seitan as tofu, however I've been served seitan before where the server had no reasonable clue what it was baked in the clay pot.  (I must say, it was very delicious, though :-)  I realized 1 year later that what I'd been served is Seitan.  This would only become a clear problem in the case of a person thinking they are getting a tofu/soy based substance who may have a gluten intolerance.  This would be bad.  Otherwise, I think it's a bit random of a statement and should not need to be included in the article, and possibly just allow the comments here in the tofu discussion to remain.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.13.236 (talk) 02:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

enquiry regarding "sago" in sentence construction
A construction in the text reads as follows: In Philippines, the sweet delicacy taho is made of fresh tofu with brown sugar syrup at 'sago'.

What is "sago"? Perhaps there is something missing from here because I cannot discern the meaning. Perhaps could this sago be sago?--Mumun 無文 11:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * After looking at taho I changed 'at' to 'and' in the sentence above and added the sago link.--Mumun 無文 00:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Protein content
In the nutrition and health section's protein subsection, the paragraph about the AHA's "counter claim" to the heart health claims allowed by the FDA previously don't read like counterclaims at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.175.188.98 (talk) 18:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

Yaki-dofu
Should yaki-dofu (grilled tofu) be added to the article? It is supposed to be one of the three main Japanese varieties, after kinugoshi-dofu (silken tofu) and momen-dofu (cotton tofu). Badagnani 04:01, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Brain atrophy study and uncited aluminum claim
In the "Isoflavones" section (under "Nutrition and health information") there's an uncited claim about the study "Brain aging and midlife tofu consumption" (L.R. White et al.):

"A possible reason behind the correlation between brain atrophy and tofu consumption in L.R. White's study is that the individual subjects in the study have consumed tofu from the same source, a local tofu manufacturer in Hawaii that processed the tofu in heated aluminum containers. The aluminum that was released from the containers may have been a significant contributing factor to the brain atrophy of these individuals. Aluminum is a neurotoxin thought by some to be a cause of Alzheimer's Disease."

This is a serious claim and needs to have a citation (other than the ones that it has on the dangers of aluminum). This text was added by an anonymous user on 26 Dec 2006 (and is the only contribution by that IP address).

I submit that this text should be removed from the article in a week's time unless someone can come up with a citation for it. I should note that the study itself did not supply the tofu (this is clear from the abstract). Of course it is still possible that there was some favorite local tofu maker who used aluminum, but this is the sort of claim that would be sketchy even with a citation, and we don't even have that.

I'm a vegetarian and eat tofu and am disturbed by this study, but perpetuating this uncited claim is not the way to deal with it. Kfgauss 21:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I added in the info about the dangers of aluminum and did a fairly poor job of citing it (but cited it I did, nonetheless). I intended to come back and fix up the rest of the paragraph - I'm not sure who put the aluminum container info in there - but I got distracted. If it's of use to anyone, I did find a website that suggested high concentrations of aluminum in the soy-products used in the study, likely due to processing methods, but I was wary about adding it in because the website was kind of vegan and didn't cite its own sources. Regardless, something needs to be done about this section. That brain atrophy study really freaked me out before I went out and actually read something about it. Bloodbeard 17:41, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the paragraph. Feel free to add it back or something similar if you find a good citation. A random website that doesn't cite sources could well have gotten it from this article. Kfgauss 19:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Request to move to Doufu
Doufu is of chinese origin.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 21:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Oppose move. That's a good point, and one that is covered well in the article. The thing is, our naming conventions, stated at Naming conventions (use English), say that we should use the most common English-language name in our article titles. "Tofu" is an English word (a loanword from Japanese) and "doufu" is not, as can be seen at the following links:


 * http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/doufu


 * http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tofu


 * Like it or not, a lot of items of Chinese origin (such as ume or bonsai) have been adopted into English from Japanese rather than Chinese, for various historical reasons. Badagnani 22:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose as per Badagnani. No one can deny the deep historical, cultural links between China and doufu, but in English-speaking countries it is clearly known as tofu. Mumun 無文 00:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * comment,I felt so strange to see tofu rather than doufu as the name of beancurd.Anyway,if all of you insist,I will not persist.-Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 10:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not. Paper and silk are from China as well.  Kanji is the romaji from the Chinese "Hànzì".  I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of English speakers, at least those outside China, even those who despise it, know what "tofu" is, but, except for those who have studied Chinese, have never heard of "doufu".  Tom e rtalk  03:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - I wouldn't call Chinese characters "kanji," though. For whatever reason, "kanji" is known by many English speakers as the name of the characters of Chinese origin as used in the Japanese written language, but "hanzi" isn't as well known in the English-speaking world except among Sinophiles. It's a good point you make, though. Badagnani 03:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose - You see doufu used once in a while but ask most westerners and many east asian to write it out in Roman characters and they'll give it to you as tofu. Sjschen (talk) 04:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I would support "bean curd" as a purely neutral, English article name, but not doufu. I don't dispute its origin in China, but that spelling is virtually unseen in the west -- even Chinese-made exports use the spelling "tofu". Ham Pastrami (talk) 02:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Infobox
What just happened to the infobox? Some editor just swept in and changed it, and now several of the romanizations are hidden. Please change it back. Badagnani 02:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * As I explained below, and in my edit summary, which you apparently didn't read, single-article templates are deprecated. Tom e rtalk  03:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This edit is even worse--it got rid of all of the Asian names and romanizations that we worked so hard on. There was no consensus for that. It would be great if the editor who did this could explain why the Asian names are worthy of blanking without comment. Badagnani 03:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * And again, as I explained in my edit summary, and below (so whence the charge of "without comment"?), foreign food names are not encyclopædically useful in an English encyclopædia article. Tom e rtalk  03:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)