Talk:Tonton Macoute

Santa Claus
Why restrict the visits Santa Claus makes? He does visit all nations of the world! Geez Dominick 23:47, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Incorrectamundo Dominic, The big S only visits Christians and they only make up 1/4 of the world's population. But I hear he does holiday in Tahiti. Tomtom 1233hrs 19 July 2004

Santa doesn't only 'visit' christians. My non-christian children still expect a visit from him. What I'm wondering is why the article presents it as given that santa visits anyone? Wouldn't it make more sense to say that "In Haitian tradition..." instead of "In Haiti"? - Peter Darley, 7/8/2004

MVSN link
I have deleted the MVSN link because it takes you to a disambiguation page. On that page, there is a link back to Tonton Macoute, so it is completely circular and a waste of time. There is no reason to have that circular link here. Please do not put it back in. Thanks. I assume that you are new to Wikipedia. Welcome. Please read up a bit on our project before you start making edits. There is an etiquette to follow, and it is there for a good reason. You will enjoy your time here if you follow some basic rules. Thanks. Kevintoronto 21:50, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Kevintoronto, I wish that you would leave the MVSN link alone as there are other meanings for MVSN and that those who routinely surf through Wikipedia may find these links useful. There were two MVSN organizations and your personal disagrement not withstanding, they may loop, BUT so do many others. The links are for all Wikipedians and not just for you. G-day sir!--Numerousfalx 21:55, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Numerousfalx,

I am glad to have a person to talk to now, instead of an anonymous editor. I do not want to get into a revert war, so I will not revert until we have resolved it on this page. I do request, however, that you consider my points, and respond to them with reasoned arguments and not just invective.

I made my original change because I did not believe that it was consistent with Wikipedia style for the reasons I set out below. I identified the reasons for the change in the edit summary in accordance with the Wikipedia rules of engagement instruction:


 * Give good edit summaries, so your actions are clear and transparent.

An anonymous editor (which may or may not have been you) reverted the change without providing any explanation in the edit summary, which is not consistent with the above-mentioned rules of engagement. In order to try to avert a revert war, I made the change again, and provided a detailed explanation on the Talk page. This is the advice provided in Staying cool when the editing gets hot:
 * If someone disagrees with you, try to understand why, and in your discussion on the Talk pages take the time to provide good reasons why you think your way is better.

You have responded accusing me of behaving as though Wikipedia is only for me. Please review No personal attacks, particularly the part that asks you to:


 * Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users.

I also refer to Staying cool when the editing gets hot again:


 * Assume the best about people whenever possible. Wikipedia has worked remarkably well so far based on a policy of openness. This suggests that most people who visit do want to help, and do succeed at helping.

If you take a look at my user page, you will see that I have created and contributed to a large numbers of articles in order to build Wikipedia into a better encyclopedia. By adding the large amount of content that I have, I have demonstrated that, like you, I am here to share knowledge, not to create personal play thing.

My reasons for making this change:

Firstly, it is customary to put the name of an organization in the text, and initials in parentheses: i.e., United Nations (UN), rather than the other way around.

Secondly, I believe that my edit is consistent with the Wikipedia style. I refer you to Manual of Syle:Links:


 * ''The use of so-called "free links" to other topics, for example, George W. Bush, is encouraged. Use the links for all words and terms that are relevant to the article.

The purpose of free links is to allow readers to easily and conveniently follow their curiosity or research to other articles.''

I do not think that the Tonton Macoute is related to the Italian blackshirts or to a computer software company, so linking it to the disambiguation page is not "relevant to the article". The fact that they share the same initials is only incidental. Please review the Style Guide, and let me know why you think that linking to these other articles is relevant.

If they are relevant, then it would make sense to link directly to those articles, instead of to the disambiguation page, e.g., "The Tonton macoute were more formally known as the Milice volontaire de securite nationale (MVSN - not to be confused with the Italian Blackshirts or the Macrovision software company that have the same initials)."

But I don't think that that makes a lot of sense in the context of this article: people who come to this article on the Tonton macoute are probably not looking for information on the Blackshirts or on a computer software company.

Your comments, please. Kevintoronto 18:56, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * But who are you to suppose what other people want, isn't Wikipedia a whole lot of relevent links leading those in the quest for knowledge? You may not see the relavence in the links but mayhaps others do, as I am but one and obviously there are others as the link keeps geeting restored. Apparently we are in disagreement, maybe the links will open their eyes as to the existence of othermeanings to MVSN. And since this article is linked to the terrorist category, do you not think that the Italian MVSN was a terrorist organization in accordance with the methods that the used?--Numerousfalx 17:57, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * What's up with the constant linkremoval to MVSN, was it or was it not called the MVSN? and therefore, why is the link being deleted by Kevintoronto? I think the link is applicable and I think it should stay there, whythen do you not see this, I happen to agree with Numerousfalx, and think the link should stay. I think that you two need to getover what ever it is and leave the link alone.--Tomtom 18:03, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Kindly, you're all wrong., , and . The official organization name is Volontaires de la Sécurité Nationale (VSN), it was never, Milice de Volontaires de la Sécurité Nationale (MVSN) and the sources never cited this but instead referred it as the former. This was their official logo shown here . Cheers. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:07, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

"sand of blocks"
In the Dexter quote, what would that be in, say, English? Chris 06:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Plural
Should it not be (Les) Tontons Macoute, not Tonton Macoutes? Plutonium27 (talk) 23:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, it really should be Tontons Macoutes. Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:01, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Removed section
I've removed the section from the article and placed it below. None of the statements have any citations, and the citations we need have to speak specifically to the Tonton Macoute, not just some "secret police". Also they have to be notable, so some passing reference in a song or a stand-up joke isn't very notable. And of course, original research/personal observations are utterly unacceptable. None of it can return to the article wthout suitable citation.

I can't comment regarding other "popular culture" references, but the lyrics to the Plant song are easily Googled as well as being printed in the CD booklet. What constitutes a suitable citation? And what specifically qualifies a reference as notable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wozthewise (talk • contribs) 23:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Tonton Macoute in popular culture
 * There is a mention of the Tonton Macoute on the Showtime television show, Dexter episode "Father Knows Best": Yeah, the boogeyman. They did a lot of terrible things. Killed a lot of people. They made mothers carry the heads of their dead sons. Forced fathers to rape their daughters. They tied cinder blocks around people's necks and drowned them and put mutilated bodies in trees and killed everybody trying to take them down.
 * There is a mention of the Tonton Macoute on the Robert Plant song "Heaven Knows," from his 1988 album Now and Zen.
 * British standup comedian Bill Bailey references Tonton Macoute in his live show Part Troll when he says: That's true, Hitler was a vegetarian. Just goes to show, vegetarianism is not always a good thing. Can in some extreme cases lead to genocide. It's like the Tonton Macoute machete maintenance class: violent but instructive.
 * Probably the most complete exposition of the structure and deeds of the Tonton Macoute in the movies was The Comedians (1967, based upon the Graham Greene novel). Richard Burton, relentlessly pursued by Papa Doc's myrmidons, is asked by a companion, What are you afraid of?, to which he replied: I am afraid of the Tonton; I am afraid of death. And, though not in the movie, it's worth noting that in Voodoo the number 2 is bad luck, poison, thus Papa Doc, in order to inculcate fear, rode around in a black sedan with the license plate "22", two 2's being doubly bad.
 * In Brazil, a post-punk band used the name in the late 1980s, led by then young composer Joao MacDowell.
 * The secret police is featured in the American horror film The Serpent and the Rainbow.

- Arcayne  (cast a spell)  04:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Plural again
In French, the plural of tonton macoute is tontons macoutes, which is both regular, with both components showing the plural (when they are a part of speech that has a plural form, as here), and specifically attested by the Petit Robert dictionary. Am correcting accordingly. Awien (talk) 16:47, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with you 100% . Savvyjack23 (talk) 22:01, 1 January 2018 (UTC)