Talk:Top Cat/Archive 1

2 Series?
Was it 2 seasons or just 1? I don't see any break in the episode air-dates, and IMDb and TV.com list the show as having just 1 season.


 * COrrected. - BillCJ 04:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Song
'''"Who's intellectual;/ Close friends..." or "Whose intellectual/ Close friends..."'''

Okay, sorry, I bowed down to the Google god on that one.


 * "top cat" "who's intellectual" (about 41 matches)
 * "top cat" "whose intellectual" (2 matches)

Anyone have any more reliable source for which one is correct...? -- Oliver P. 23:04 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)


 * It should be whose as who's is a contraction of who is, which doesn't make sense in this context. (I think) Tuf-Kat


 * Depends on the parsing. Should this be:

Top Cat: The most effectual. Top Cat: Who's intellectual. Close friends get to Call him TC, Providing its with dignity

or

Top Cat: The most effectual! Top Cat! Whose intellectual close friends get to call him TC, providing its with dignity.

I think the top is what was intended, but the musical accompaniment makes the latter seem a possibility. (Depends on if you think TC or his friends were intellectual. As I recall, they were blithering idiots!) This may be one of the imponderable questions of the ages.... -- Someone else 23:14 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
 * Aaah, I'm too young to have seen it, so I didn't realize there are multiple interpretations of the staggering work of genius that is this theme song! Tuf-Kat


 * Hey, come on now, don't let me down, this is important! If you listen to the chorus singing it, you'll hear how "close friends" runs straight on from "intellectual", making it clear that they are one and the same. So it's got to be "whose", regardless of what the illiterate web sites thrown up by Google suggest. Deb 23:25 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I always interpreted it as being a song about a cat who is intellectual. The verse starts by proclaiming his great character - namely, the fact that he is "effectual" - and I interpreted the verse as continuing in the same vein, by also proclaiming that he is "intellectual". In a song which is almost in its entirety a paean to the greatness of Top Cat, it would seem strange to me if it were attributing this quality to his friends (whose subordinate position to Top Cat is an integral part of the social system in this cartoon), rather than to him. -- Oliver P. 23:27 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)

Once this is decided, this talk page should be memorialized somewhere, as it's hilarious. Only on Wikipedia does such a conversation occur. Tuf-Kat


 * I think the only way to resolve this issue is for us to purchase a copy of the "Cartoon Tunes Songbook", available from KIDiddles Online Store at $9.95. Do you think Jimbo Wales would consider it a worthwhile investment? Deb 23:41 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)


 * I think it would be better to rely on the written word than on the chorus's diction. After all, who is to say the chorus fully understood the mythic import of the words of the immortal bard? Does no library have a copy of the tome in question? -- Someone else 00:02 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)

See what you've started, TK!!! I hadn't heard the melody or even thought of it for nearly 2 decades until you changed your name. Now I'm haunted by it. And so is my flatmate since I mentioned it to him. And his girlfriend. Now you have started something. JTD 00:12 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)
 * Yes, that was my plan. Once the world is distracted by this song, nobody will oppose me as I take control of the entire planet.  Ha!  Nobody can stop me now! Tuf-Kat

One further thought. Oliver and Someone else have been taking the lyrics a little too literally. May I venture to suggest that the use of the adjective "intellectual" (as in "intellectual close friends") is intended to be ironic? Deb 17:55 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)


 * Ah, but is this anything more than your own personal conjecture? If not, then I'm afraid that it is not a strong enough argument to counter the divine proclamation of the Google god. (Has no-one found that songbook yet? Well, really, what can be of greater import in the Wikipedia than a definitive answer to this question?) -- Oliver P. 23:45 Mar 26, 2003 (UTC)

Oliver, I thought you had gone away! (Not that I would have wished for that, you understand.) I wonder if anyone is personally acquainted with the lyricist? JTDirl, perhaps? Deb 19:37 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)

'fraid not. No idea!

Gone away? Oh no, I can never leave the Wikipedia. :) Well, I keep trying to, temporarily at least, because I have so much work to do, but then I keep finding myself coming back... Which is terribly annoying, of course... probably for everyone concerned. ;) -- Oliver P. 20:49 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)

top cat theme muffled words
The most important debate is about the commonly-misheard lines after "close friends get to call...". Contrary to modern mythology, the words are NOT (I maintain): "close friends get to call him T.C., providing it's with dignity." Instead I'm certain that the original, correct words are: "close friends get to call at TC, providing it's with invitee." The incorect words, heard on the more modern re-recorded soundtrack on CDs/videos since the 80s, is pure guesswork - and wrong. Hanna-Barbera told BBC's 'The Saturday Picture Show' that they did not know what the muffled words were - and subsequently guessed "him" and "dignity" when having to re-record a non-muffled version for compilation CDs and videos.

As Hoyt Curtin never printed the words for posterity, the only way to confirm it would be to listen to the ORIGINAL soundtrack - which fairly unquestionably says: "close friends get to call at T.C., providing it's with invitee." (Invitee is a US expression for an invitation.) Original recordings are difficult to find. Terry McGrath.


 * Now that really is weird! Deb 21:45, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Has anyone considered another possibility? "close friends get to call him T.C.; bromide it gets whipped in the tea" After all, animal protection agencies often need to neuter feral cats, and bromide in the tea is sometimes used within institutions for similar purposes. Marnanel 18:18, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Is invitee a US expression for invitation? Or does it mean, as a British person would read it, the invited?  It would work with the latter interpretation.  I must admit, I've never been sold on the "with dignity" answer. If a hard 'D' like that gets lost in the mix the singers' diction must have been appalling.  Whereas invitee could easily transfer to a featureless mumble when subjected to multiple voices. --bodnotbod 18:53, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)

It is correct that 'invitee' more usually means 'invited' in US legal jargon, but in US slang it can mean either. I once heard the phrase 'invitee' used to mean an 'invitation' by W.C.Fields in a film, when he said he couldn't attend a party as he didn't have an invitee, (meaning a paper 'invitation' in that case).

In the Southern U.S., invitations are often informally/colloquially refered to as "in-vites". The only use of "invitee" to mean invitation that I'm familliar with is the one alluded to about Fields. I'd almost guess that the original implication was that T.C., himself, was the intellectual ("who's intellectual") and that this passage concluded the paen to Top Cat, and that the next line is that his "close friends get to call him TC, provided it's with dignity" as befits such an august feline personage. His friends are not intellectual. It should be considered that the article is correct in that this is a cartoon version of "Sgt. Bilko" as "The Flinstones" was a cartoon of "The Honeymooners", rewritten just enough that Hanna-Barbera didn't get sued for infringement. And Bilko's followers were none too bright. (I would suggest that the true T.C. sidekick was Benny the Ball, but he's not an "intellectual" either, none of the gang is, but TC certainly is in his own conceits, and is smarter than the other cats. I'm still reeling with shock that there are only 30 episodes.  Shows how many times you'll watch the same exact thing over and over when you're a kid, I guess.

Rlquall 18:59, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hi, guys... I'm desperate. :) I'm a big fan of Top Cat. Do you have any idea where I could download some episodes from? I know the series are for sale, but I hoped I could dwnl some, because taxes are, let's say, BIG for Romania. Thx guys. BTW, I think it's "Who's intellectual/ Close friends get to call him TC/", judging by the fact that TC is a shrewd, one-step-ahead-of-the-others guy. please write back. bye.
 * Sorry, I don't think Wikipedia supports that kind of thing... Phred Levi 09:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Children's television series?
I take issue with the classification (in the sidebar) of this show as a children's television series. The Wikipedia entry for children's television series defines such a show as a television program:

1) "Designed for and marketed to children."

2) "Normally aired during the morning and afternoon hours, mainly before and after school."

3) With a purpose "mainly to entertain and sometimes to educate the young audience about basic life skills or ideals."

I maintain that Top Cat fails in all of the above categories except the "entertain" portion of #3.

When the show originally aired in the 1961-1962 television season, it was shown on Wednesday nights at 8:30 p.m. in the Eastern Time Zone of the United States. I watched the show when it first came on the air and was indeed entertained by it, but in response to poor grades on one of my report cards, my parents changed my bedtime from 9:00 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. on Monday through Thursday nights. Thus I was not allowed to watch Top Cat again until my grades came up on the next report card. If Top Cat were really originally designed for and marketed to children, it would not have been shown at 8:30 p.m. on a "school night". The school nights are normally Sunday through Thursday nights. My parents allowed me to continue to stay up until 9:00 on Sundays because I woke up later on that day. In addition, I think there was a T.V. values judgment--I don't think they minded it when I watched Car 54, Where Are You? or The Ed Sullivan Show as much as they minded it when I watched Top Cat because of their own interest in and appreciation of the two Sunday night shows (although, since they both aired in the 8:30-9:00 p.m. time slot in those pre-VCR days, we had to pick which one we wanted to see in a given week). On Wednesdays, they didn't even watch Top Cat with us--as one of the first homes on our block to have a second T.V., they took advantage of this situation to watch a show starring Joey Bishop that aired on NBC at the same time as Top Cat.

Even when I watched Top Cat, the plots were way above my head. I thought it was just six felines playing around and having a good time. While there was some of that in the show, I have discovered in the years since then that the whole idea was Top Cat, with the help of his five buddies, and working against Officer Dibble, trying to make a fast, usually illegal, buck. This type of activity (including trying to outsmart a police officer) is not a basic ideal you want to be teaching your kids. I know that other cartoon shows aimed at kids had problems like this, too--Yogi Bear stealing picnic baskets in Jellystone Park despite Ranger Smith's watchful eye is an example that comes to mind immediately. But it could be argued that Yogi Bear cartoons teaches a basic life skill to future visitors to the National Park Service--beware of bears who may want to steal your dinner! As I've watched episodes that have been released on VHS and DVD over the years, I have seen why my parents did not want me to watch Top Cat.

If you have any reason to believe that Top Cat should still be classified as a children's television series, please post them here. Otherwise, I may try to find a new category for it. RSLitman 13:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Children's Television Series! This is an addition to the above writing---I am a different writer and don't know if I am adding a comment in the correct place.

About changing the category. YES, DO IT! And then suck the living air out of ANY bit of joy that you see around you!

Sometimes, I have wonderfully divine memories of childhood things. Then, I run into someone who has turned it into a PHD study and leaves me wondering if we are even talking about the same thing. I walk away and have to do some work on getting any joy back about the issue.

Back in the days when every little thing in life was not something for the Moral Majority to get upset about, there were shows that children enjoyed and PERHAPS adults too, because children did not understand the second meaning. Did it hurt the children? I DON'T THINK SO! Topcat was a wonderful memory for me. I remember it as showing on Saturday mornings. Should I look this up? I don't think so! My choice is to keep it simple and enjoy it when I run into people who have memories of it--we usually jump up and down and remember T.C., and I used to think there was a Fancy and Nancy. We talk, feel the joy of childhood and go on about our lives. It brings back memories for me of friends whom I loved and joys that I had.

SO--IF YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT AN ADULT SHOW---SO BE IT. Then, I hope that you take a look Mary Poppins and get it rated X for its naughty meanings. After you have cleansed the world, sit back and enjoy. In the meantime, you will have squashed the joy out of the childhood memories of many adults.

P.S. I don't know....are kids not as smart as they once were? I knew that Top Cat and his gang were not honest, other cartoon characters were bad......I could tell bad from good....can we lighten up just a little?!?!?!?!?!

72.224.204.61 04:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)debkamaine72.224.204.61 04:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Children's television series in the UK?
The original Top Cat airing in the UK (1962) met the second point of the Wikipedia entry for children's television series ("Normally aired during the morning and afternoon hours, mainly before and after school."). My recollection is that the BBC showed it as part of children's programming (which was probably between about 5 pm and 6 pm but that needs to be confirmed - I was only eight at the time!). The BBC seemed to regard it as a children's series. Brother Francis 10:46, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Impact in Mexico
As in the US where "Dibble" has entered the vernacular as slang for Police Officer, in Mexico "Matute" has also entered the vernacular as slang for Police Officer. That's probably the first time a cartoon makes such a contribution to two completely different languajes and cultures. 189.157.150.173 18:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

My mistake not the US but the UK 189.157.150.173 19:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Top Cat's Real Name
I once had a comic book (c. 1972) where the gang was taking their annual vote to elect 'Top Cat', with Dibble dressed in costume challenging for the role. In this story, Top Cat declared that his real name was 'Herbie' - can anyone else confirm this?


 * It mave well have been in the comic, but I don't think it was ever mentioned in the show. Remember, writers make stuff up as they go along, and also, comic writers uusally aren't the ones who wrote the show. - BillCJ 04:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

George Galloway
Could someone explain why Galloway's use of the "Top Cat" theme on his show doesn't merit a mention? CJCurrie 03:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Because, as written, it is unsourced, irrelevant, non-notable trivia. Please see WP:ATRIV and WP:N for more info. - BillCJ 04:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * With respect, I don't see this as non-notable. Galloway's show is a major deal in Britain, and I would think his use of the Top Cat theme deserves a mention.  CJCurrie 03:12, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Notable in respect to trivia means it's documented in reliable secondary sources, which attest to the item's notability. There is nothing to prevent Galloway's article from stating that his show uses the theme, and in fact it is stated there, where it should be. However, here it is triva, as it is not directly releated to the show itself. The show does appears to be a big deal, but that's not the question here: It's whether its use of the Top Cat theme is notable in and of itself that is the issue, and that has to be asserted by secondary sources, per the guidelines listed above. - BillCJ 04:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Number of episodes?
The infobox says 30, while the first paragraph says 31. Which one is correct? I'll check my dvd set this afternoon but if someone can confirm and correct this it'll be very much appreciated. Vicco Lizcano (talk) 16:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC) (Hey! Listen!)
 * I've found out why of this change, there's a "Top Cat" (first appearance Famous Cartoon in 1960) listed first in the episodes. However, there's not any other mention of said episode in the article, if it does indeed exists, it should be noted in a paragraph (perhaps in the History and treatment section) and deleted from the episode list, since the list is for the series, not Top Cat itself. For examples of this, check the Tracey Ullman episodes of The Simpsons, they're not part of the first season. I'll make the changes in a few days, but if you have opinion or ideas here would be a great place to discuss this. Vicco Lizcano (talk) 17:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC) (Hey! Listen!)

Alleged 1st appearance
I'm moving this "'Top Cat' (first appearance Famous Cartoon in 1960)" here, until someone could get a source/cite for this. When you do find a source, don't add it to the episode list, since it won't be part of the series anyway (or else it would be in my Full season DVD set). Cheers. Vicco Lizcano (talk) 15:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC) (Hey! Listen!)

Second Right hand and second in command?
In the article it says: "Choo Choo is the second of Top Cat's right-hand men and his 2nd in command." Is this correct? it sounds redundant to me, but English is my second (right-hand) language, hehehe. Vicco Lizcano (talk) 14:16, 27 February 2008 (UTC) (Hey! Listen!)

Damon Runyon and "Top Cat"
It seems to me that Damon Runyon, never mentioned in this article or in the discussion thus far, is the source of "TC". Runyonesque language, characters, and situations, existing a good 20 years or more before Sgt. Bilko ever debuted on TV, are the obvious precursors to TC and his gang, right down to the colorful monikers of Nathan Detroit ("Benny Southstreet," "Harry the Horse," "Nicely-Nicely" Johnson, etc.) The basic structure, of a bunch of disreputable but lovable rogues dressed in gaudy clothes, using ornate but only half-educated language spoken with thick New York accents, and the Midtown Manhattan environs where charming con artists rub shoulder with Upper East Side swells and other high society types and gullible out-of-towner tourists, while the local cops try to keep these riffraff under control in a perpetual love-hate relationship, is Damon Runyon all the way. The Bowery Boys (and the closely related Dead End Kids) were more proletarian and grittier in dress, manners, and demeanor (like Hell's Kitchen Irish gangs, especially the notorious "Westies," very tough and often very violent). The best of the Bowery Boys-related movies, 1938's Angels With Dirty Faces, was as grim and tough as the various incarnations of Guys and Dolls, and of TC, are light-hearted and comic. As for Bilko, he was a later, TV creation. The common elements in all these creations are the urban hipster/con-artist vs. the "straight world" (or the naive yokel from out of town) and the symbiotic relationship with the local authorities trying to maintain some notion of "law and order." maccbMaccb (talk) 02:42, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Dibble Slang
The article states: "The name Dibble has passed into the vernacular as slang for police officers." Is there an example or citation of this? Orderofthehouse (talk) 03:01, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I wondered that too. It wasn't on that long, it's interesting if it had that impact. (I remember liking it for a time, but I agree with the above that in some ways it feels more like an animated sitcom than a kids show.)--T. Anthony (talk) 14:38, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

The Actual Lyrics
I hope I'm not infringing on any copyright here, but these are the lyrics to the theme;

TOP CAT, THE MOST AFFECTUAL TOP CAT WHO'S INTELLECTUAL CLOSE FRIENDS GET TO CALL HIM TC PROVIDING IT'S WITH DIGNITY TOP CAT, THE INDISPUTABLE LEADER OF THE GANG HE'S THE BOSS, HE'S A VIP HE'S THE CHAMPIONSHIP HE'S THE MOST TIP TOP, TOP CAT

(INATRUMENTAL BRIDGE)

YES, HE'S THE CHIEF, HE'S THE KING BUT AMONG EVERYTHING, HE'S THE MOST TIP TOP, TOP CAT —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uncleal923 (talk • contribs) 04:08, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Lyrics vary. See:
 * http://www.culttelly.co.uk/lyrics/topcat.html
 * http://www.cfhf.net/lyrics/topcat.htm
 * http://www.lyricsondemand.com/tvthemes/topcatlyrics.html
 * http://www.tvtunesonline.com/lyrics/toons.asp#Top_Cat

Does anyone actually know what the definitive version is? --86.148.1.172 (talk) 22:40, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Fancy-Fancy or just Fancy ?
I'd always believed him to be called just Fancy, but you can prove me wrong ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by WDH59510 (talk • contribs) 13:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)