Talk:Toronto/Archive 2

Population
The population of the Greater Toronto Area is 5.2 million.

Early discussion
I am not new to research/analysis but am new to WikiWhatevers and cannot believe this mess. This page needs organizing, sources have to be included for anything and everything or the page is completely worthless. Why would anyone just take someone's word for something, like "over 5.6 million people (2005)"? Where did that come from? Where did "US $305 billion gross domestic product, CDN $360 billion" come from and if anything in USD is going to be posted then what exchange rate was used? But where did it come from, where are the sources for all of these allegations and which fiscal year is the alleged CDN$360 billion from? Most economies tend to be in millions of dollars and is it real GDP (based on what year in prices and chained or not) or current "dollars"/prices?


 * 01-Toronto Division: 629.91 square km
 * 02-Peel Regional Municipality: 1,241.99 km²
 * 04-York Regional Municipality: 1,761.64 km²
 * 05-Durham Regional Municipality: 2,523.48 km²
 * 11-Halton Regional Municipality: 967.04 km²
 * TOTAL: 7,124.06 square kilometers

Source: Statistics Canada - http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/standard/popdwell/Table-CSD-PS2.cfm

Not 7,000 square km but 7,124.06. "Close enough," wild guesses that are not backed up by reliable sources amount to nothing; not that I consider StatsCON to be reliable but unless someone knows of a private surveyor's organization to verify the above then it's the best we've got.

But where is anyone getting updated "gross domestic product" information from for a bunch of municipalities (the "GTA thing")? No fiscal year is even stated, let alone whether it's nominal/real  GDP in the usual 1997 "dollars" (prices), and is it chained from 1997 or not? Or did someone actually find current dollars at current prices for a GDP in the Canadas? And if anything in USD is going to be stated then post the exchange rate.

And which NAICS industries make up what in "the GTA" in economic output with percentages? www.2ontario.com has tons of stats, but not for the municipality of Toronto or the "GTA."

The most basic things to get together do not exist, with any credibility at all on the Greater Toronto Area page, which has to have the populations, population densities, unemployment rates, average household incomes, GDPs and in what NAICS industries, per municipality, as the very start of a template to mean anything.

It's not even mentioned that the municipality of Toronto out-populates all four "provinces" of the Atlantic Canadas and all three territories combined, or Manitoba + Saskatchewan + PEI + all three territories combined (with 154,905 in irrelevant residents of the municipality of Toronto leftover and the resident population is irrelevant due to how many commuters, business travelers, tourists and other visitors on average last fiscal year?).

The bizarre messes around taxation, the "Ontario" feds steal all municipal property taxes that the "municipality" of Toronto zones as commercial/industrial, "Ontario" Social Services, "Ontario" Housing do exist, but not in Toronto they don't and whatever 20% of the expenses of the "Ontario" feds happen to be to pay for "Ontario" Social Services, "Ontario" Housing, ODSP is taken right out of Toronto's (municipality of, unless otherwise is stated for this purpose) residential property taxes, which amounted to 37% of our MUNICIPAL residential property taxes last fiscal year, which resulted in another TTC fare hike to try to cover those expenses that nothing covers, quite unlike any other sane city in the world, let alone an alleged city-region, where they actually keep their municipal taxes and get shares of state/provincial and federal taxes to pay for things that municipal taxes were never designed to pay for: like public transit (the TTC's web site used to claim that the TTC was the 2nd largest public transit system in North America behind only NYC, in ridership, but not anymore, it lost ... Google +"vital signs" +toronto, 1,316,000 riders between 2001 and 2003, while service was cut and fares had increased 27 per cent since 1997, almost twice the rate of inflation -- due to the confederate feds stealing $22 billion a year on average (not returning its fair share to the "Ontario" feds) ever since they got their own budget deficit paid off in fiscal 1997-98 and half of that deficit has been run on the "municipality" of Toronto by the "Ontario" feds.

Why are we paying "provincial" or confederate ("federal") taxes in Toronto? A whole $90 million and change was sent back to Toronto via the "new deal for cities and communities" (due to the Stampede Town Hick Party; it was supposed to be "the new deal for CITIES" given that they're the economic backbones of the Canadas; but nothing puts up with what Toronto does; probably anywhere on the planet in any alleged "democracy") while $11 THOUSAND million was stolen by the "Ontario" (which Ontario?) and confederate feds in return for a whole $90 million and change of our own revenues back.

So what if it's going up to $100+ million next fiscal year? Another $1.1 BILLION will be stolen and wow, we get the decimal point back.

I'm just barely getting warmed up but will leave it at that for now. It's a mess, the Toronto page and the "GTA" page (what GTA? What say does Toronto City Hall have over the "T" in GTA?) other than the usual of blowing sunshine up arses for no apparent reason instead of dealing with reality?

S-Ranger S-Ranger 03:35, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

French-language in Toronto
A few mentions of the French language in Toronto striked me as purely POV. I have removed "Only 1.4% of city residents claim French (Canada's other official language) as their mother tongue." as it is as relevant as a mention that only 1.4% of Quebec City's population claim the English language as their mother tongue in an article about the latter city. Furthemore I have edited the mention of ESL, specifically "These students come primarily from Latin America, East Asia and German-speaking Europe with surprisingly few coming from nearby French Canada." Present-day Germans and Swiss are not emigrating to Canada in significant numbers. Moreover, people from Quebec would likely be attending French-language schools.

--- I understand what you say about why you removed "Only 1.4% of city residents claim French (Canada's other official language) as their mother tongue." from the article. I disagree with your argument, however.

For readers outside of Canada, I would think that the French fact of Quebec City comes as little surprise. But because of Canada's reputation as being a bilingual, French-English country, many assume that Toronto has a large French component as well. (I have personally met foreign visitors actually in Toronto who, having seen French language on highway signs and government-run liquor stores, along with French channels on their hotel TV sets, still had this assumption.)

I think it would be an interesting point to many unfamiliar with Toronto, or Canada in general, to re-include this information.--Harry 19:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

How can I write this page in Another Language?
How can I write this page in Another Language?
 * Your question is not clear, but I'll try to help. Start by going to the List of Wikipedias. Select the Wikipedia for the language into which you want to translate this. Enter "Toronto" into the search box in that Wikipedia to see if there is already an article. it may be called "Toronto, Canada". If there is already an article, which is likely for Wikipedias in widely-spoken languages, you can edit that article to incorporate information from this one. If there is no article, you will have to create a new article, and then you can post whatever you have written in that language. Good luck. If you have further questions, you can post them here or on my talk page. Ground Zero | t 19:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

sub pages
Some of the material on this page could safely be moved to sub pages. We have main articles for a number of sections, but material on the Toronto page continues to duplicate the material in these specialized articles. (my terminology may not be entirely correct here)-Dhodges 17:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I wholeheartedly agree! I started to do this with Demographics of Toronto way back when, but have since been subsumed. :) E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 17:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

cultural capital?
I believe there is a mistake in the first paragraph regarding the internal link to "Cultural capital." When Toronto is referred to as “one of Canada’s Cultural Capitals” it means that the city is a centre of some specific activity; in this case, culture. It’s like saying that New York is the financial capital of the world. However, "Cultural capital" links to an article on Pierre Bourdieu's theory of cultural capital, where the word “capital” clearly means wealth, assets or advantage. Bourdieu is talking about cultural capital as opposed to human capital or money.

I would suggest that the link be removed.--OldCommentator 03:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that wasn't correct. I removed the link. - Randwicked Alex B 03:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Center of Universe snipe
Why is it ok for that to be in the article? Can it be verified that Western Canadians actually use that remark? John wesley 14:28, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I can verify that it is 'sometimes dubbed' "Centre of the Universe" (Rayburn, p. 46), but otherwise cannot. Perhaps for balance, we should merely note that it is referred to as such by other Canadians, not necessarily by those in western Canada for whatever reasons. E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 14:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * When I watch TV, it's always some loud mouth Albertan, not a Nova Scotian

Twinnings
Are there any sources for the list of twin cities? I can't find any evidence for such a relationship between Toronto and Sydney, for example. JPD (talk) 15:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I've wondered the same thing. I have no idea if the list of twinned cities is accurate, or people have just added cities as they please.  At least one entry was added by an editor who otherwise vandalized the article.  I could not find any "official list" on the City website.  Skeezix1000 16:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed the Twinnings today using offical language (Partners and Friendships) and provided link to the source! It is funny...it took 3 emails back and forth to the city before they stopped sending me the link to Wikipedia!!!  I finally got them to understand that I was trying to check on the accuracy of Wiki!  Man...that list WAS wrong!  KsprayDad 18:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That's great! That previous list was really bothering me. Skeezix1000 01:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Population comparison
Someone recently made a change suggesting Toronto is the 6th-largest city in North America, but then cited in the summary information about metropolitan areas. As far as cities are concerned, only Mexico City, New York, LA, and Chicago, in that order, have larger populations than Toronto; hence, Toronto is the 5th-most populous city in North America. If you want to cite info about San Francisco-Oakland or Washington-Baltimore, than compare them to the correpsonding metropolitan area (Greater Toronto Area or Golden Horseshoe). Mind matrix  21:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

-->Conceded, and changes made accordingly to the Greater Toronto Area page. Additional detail on talk page for Greater Toronto Area.

Nighttime photo
Can someone source a different nighttime photo...the one used is at least 6 years old...If you look at the TO skyline it has different colours standing out (ie..the current photo is still showing the old Canada Trust logo on top of Canada Place and is bright orange...currently you would see a green glow)...just me being picky!

Established Date
Anyone know how to fix this...I've tried editing it but can't get it to work...

The New Ontario


I think a divided Ontario is a good idea. What does anyone else think? Dhastings 18:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Opposed. I don't think that that would be a good decision because unless the Government of Ontario has released mini "provinces", then there could be debate over where the divisions should be. Wikada - Talk  Contributions  23:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

If Ontario was to be split, to "mini provinces" it wouldn't be like that. Ontario is usually divided as the following - Northern Ontario (All the Northern parts of Ontario, extends south right before Muskoka Region, and extends eastward, right before the Capital area.), Eastern Ontario (From Ottawa and Russells, extends to near the border of the GTA), Greater Toronto Area (Toronto, York, Peel, Durham, Halton, Hamilton), Niagara (The Southern part of the Greater Horseshoe), Southern Ontario (Wellington southward) and Central Ontario (what is in between Bruce to Perry Sound and Kawatha Lake). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.112.93.67 (talk • contribs)


 * I think any such talk should be taken to some web discussion forum/blog where it belongs. If/when it becomes fact then it will be appropriate to discuss here and document on the main article with proper verification. But I would/should add that if a verifiable source is discussing it, that I'm not aware of (Toronto Board of Trade, Ontario Chamber of Commerce, something that means something and can do it too and it will be done and much more than that) that the source should be documented here because if such changes are finally, finally coming then it's noteworthy to add to the Ontario article on "down."  Or rather. the Toronto article on down to the rest of the Ontarios. --S-Ranger 14:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this would be very realistical. Hamilton would not want to be apart of Toronto for one. And Owen Sound is too far north for the rest of the Western area.


 * Leaving aside, for the moment, that the talk pages of Wikipedia articles aren't really the place for proposing alternate models of governance, these suggested boundaries don't make much sense. Nipissing and Manitoulin are more naturally allied to Northern Ontario than to Central or Western Ontario (and while it would certainly be more debatable, a case could be made that Parry Sound is, too); Simcoe, York and Durham are more naturally allied to Toronto than to Peterborough; Oxford and Perth would be more naturally governed from London than Owen Sound, and Brant, Wellington and Waterloo Region would make more sense in either Southwestern or the Golden Horseshoe. If such a thing were really up for debate, I'd go for either a two-province (Northern, Southern) or a four-province model (yellow + green = Western, blue + grey = Central, Eastern, Northern) with a more logical boundary division than this. But it's a moot point; this would only be an appropriate discussion to have here if the idea of dividing Ontario up into smaller provinces was actually under consideration by one or more levels of government. Bearcat 03:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Cycling as transport?
I am considering a move to Toronto from (sister city) Portland, Oregon. I read a lot about traffic problems and public transport in Toronto, but I'm still wondering if I can just ride my bike to work & errands like I do here. Seems like it might deserve a mention. --Shafferl 22:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Your wish is my command (sometimes). A bit cold (let's see... Portland oregon...you're good to go) -Dhodges 02:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, cycling's usually okay in the downtown core and beaches. I'd advise against it if you're in the suburbs, or the west end, or even just north of Bloor St, however. --coldacid 22:49, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I would say Davenport (slightly north of Bloor) and south is fine for a bike. Davenport has a bike lane. I bike from St. Clair, but there's a steep hill between Davenport and St. Clair (one of the few in Toronto) which can be annoying if you're carrying a load or tired. As for the west end, I'd say as long as you're east of Keele (and not too far north of Bloor) a bike's fine as well.--Stetson 23:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I regularly bike from Bloor and Kipling into the downtown core. It's doable, although a little long. 128.100.53.187 21:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Cycling has been controversial lately, with a lot of conflict between bike riders and car drivers. As a car driver, I think cyclists are pretty brave to bike downtown, particularly without helmets.

I should note, I used to bike from Bloor and Kipling into downtown every day until my bike was stolen down there a couple of weeks ago. The bike theft in this city is ridiculous. I had it locked up and everything. 70.28.185.199 15:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

DO NOT CHANGE STATISTICS UNLESS
you are absolutely sure on the contents accuracy. I find a lot of people are changing information to reflect their views and not the facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.30.71.252 (talk • contribs)

Music
Could someone add something about NXNE (North by Northeast). It's a pretty major industry event but I'm not good at writing these things. --70.30.77.176 04:59, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not clear on this but I think that events like these are not considered relevant to city articles (there was some other article writing that mentions wikipedia is NOT a travel or events guide). Including something like the NXNE would lower the bar for inclusiveness of a number of events that are even more prominent (Pride, TIFF, etc.) filling up the article into a Special Events for Toronto list. Unless it's something that really entirely defines the city I don't think it should go into the article. --Artificialard 08:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

About Statistics
Someone wrote: "(The non-white population grows by about 1 percent every year - while white population declines by about one percent during the same time)."

Where is the source of that. - —This unsigned comment was added by Galati (talk • contribs).


 * That section needs a clean-up to remove both unsourced claims and to move some stuff that more appropriately belongs in the subarticle. Skeezix1000 17:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

About Article
While this article says that it is about the City of Toronto, a lot of the economical information as well as other information reflects Toronto's metropolitan area and not the information of the city proper.

Therefore, why not include statistics of the mteropolitan area from StatCan. —This unsigned comment was added by Galati (talk • contribs).


 * Those stats are in the Greater Toronto Area article. Skeezix1000 17:31, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * And all over the City of Toronto article. --S-Ranger 23:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

"Safest large city in North America"?
According to the University of Toronto website, Toronto is ranked "the safest large city in North America". Does anyone have a citation for this? --DearPrudence 01:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

We should find another source, even just for optics sake. I'm sure the local university did a peer review before releasing those stats. rasblue 21:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure about it being the safest large city in N, America, but it certainly is in Canada. Just search statscan's website under crime rates. Considering the relatively low crime rate in Canada compared to the states and Mexico, I would tend to agree that it does have the lowest crime rate of large N. American cities.

It's my belief that Toronto is the safest large city in North America. I've seen the University of Toronto's site and the claim was also made on a Discovery Channel program and in a Guinness World Records book. The Statistics Canada site on it also provides such support. Tom H.

2005 FBI stats showed San Jose, CA as safest large US city (over 500,000 population) (its population is now just under 1,000,000) and it had a lower murder rate than Toronto 2.9 per 100K vs. 3.1 per 100K in 2005, not sure about overall crime however (including property, etc ) will check but Toronto might be in danger of losing the "safest large city in North America" crown. I know that the government uses CMAs to compare crime in urban areas that drops Toronto CMA murder rate to 2.0 per 100K making comparisons misleading to US cities (which do not include surburban areas). To be fair, 2005 had a spike in murders by gun in TO but the total was only a bit higher than previous years. Even if San Jose is roughly as (or a bit more) safe as Toronto, try Baltimore proper with a murder rate of 43.5 per 100k, more compares to dangerous parts of the third world

To update in 2006 Toronto had 70 murders (less than 30 by firearm) dropping slightly from 78 the year previous (over 50 by gun), coined "Year of the Gun" by local media, so Toronto's murder rate would be just under 2.7 per 100K for 2006 given a population of 2.6 mill. The GTA overall is even safer with 100 murders total the rate would be 1.7 per 100K (based on pop. of 5.9 mill) slightly below overall the national average, not bad for a such a large urban area and even better is Mississauga with only 2 murders for 700,000 people (only 0.3 per 100K rate). Mississauga would definitely have the lowest murder for any city over 500,000 in North America by a longshot.

Famous and renowned transfer tickets
The article states: "The TTC is famous for it's renowned 'transfer ticket', on which you can transfer to several buses, trains, and streetcars, paying only once at the start of your trip."

Really? Isn't this a bit of an exageration? Famous? Renowned? And isn't that what a transfer does on any transit system in just about any city? Or am I just unaware, and the TTC transfer really is something unique? --Skeezix1000 18:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not particularly unique, and certainly not renowned.Arthur Ellis 16:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

its notable because the TTC system covers a large area across several municapalities (which usualy operate their own transit service. one TTC price will let you ride in the toronto core, scarbrough, etobicke, ect.


 * Not unique, not renowned. What's more, those aren't even different municipalities anymore -- it's all one city, and it's just a standard transfer.  There's nothing special about it whatsoever. Cleduc 03:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Two comments: 207.176.159.90 00:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the person who originally contributed this bit hasn't traveled much in North America. There are countries where free transfers are unusual.
 * The TTC does have one notable feature relating to transfers, which is that at many subway stations you don't need them because the buses/streetcars come inside the fare-paid zone. However, this is covered at Toronto Transit Commission fares and doesn't need to be mentioned here as well (although it might reasonably be added to Toronto subway and RT).

Poorest neighbourhoods?
Is there a way of knowing what are the poorest neighbourhoods of Toronto? Some have said Parkdale or St James Town, but are they the top 2? How can we mention that they are "poor" neighbourhoods (if they are) while remaining factual? There's also an area part of Queen East that's really shady and poor, full of pawn shops, but I don't know what to call it.--Sonjaaa 04:10, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

There are stats available using census data. See this United Way site for example. Try googling poorest neighborhoods of Toronto -Dhodges 05:30, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

BTW, You might be thinking of Leslieville. -Dhodges 05:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The "really shady and poor" area "full of pawn shops" on Queen East might also be a short stretch somewhere around Queen and Sherbourne or Parliament.--Stetson 23:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I lived in Leslieville for 15 years and although it is a pretty run down neighbourhood it is far from the poorest, I think the area you are thinking of is from about broadview to jarvis on Queen East, with around Sherbourne or Parliament being the hub, as was mentioned. There is a projects just past the broadview bridge that is quite poor, but I would say that this area is also just a large hangout for many drugaddicts and generally scetched out people, which makes it seem poorer then it is. Two other poor neighbourhoods are Crecent Town (the projects at Victoria Park) and Regent Park (the projects at parliament/gerrard). I have no statistics for any of this and I may be wrong, I am just speaking from experience.

"T.O."
Where does the city's nickname "T.O." come from? Is it from "Toronto, Ontario"? I never understood it. There's not even mention of the nickname in the article (which surprised me especially as there is a "T.O." disambiguation page that links here). --Cotoco 15:55, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I split off information about Toronto's name, and its associated nicknames. It's currently linked from the history section, but it probably deserves slightly more attnetion than that. If anyone wants to review the article that was split off, and cover the salient points in this article, by all means do so... Mind  matrix  13:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The nickname "T.O." came about in the mid-to-late 80's (at least that was the first time I heard it). It is a play on the nickname "LA" for Los Angeles, since many movies were being filmed in Toronto at the time (and probably still are) to take advantage of the favourable exchange rate. As far as I know it doesn't stand for anything - it's just a way of making Toronto sound like the "LA" of the north. westmt01, 22 May 2006


 * T.O. is short for Toronto, "Ontario" (as if there is some singular "Ontario thing" other than due to medieval scriptures, let alone that the Ontarios wants anything to do with Toronto; as the page now states; though I have never heard of "T dot"; and "Center of the Universe" seems to have been invented by other Canucks who hate Toronto [seems to start at the former Scarborough city limits; or former Etobicoke city limits if from Scarborough, let alone "the 905", rest of the South Ontarios, north Ontarios and Canadas] and think that everyone in it thinks that Toronto residents think that it's [or they are?] the center of some universe, when we all know, around here, that NYC is the real center of the universe). But in my experiences (I'm 42 and my uncle from London, Ontario, used to call it T.O. when we were kids), "T.O." has been around for far longer than any film industry has existed in "Hollywood North" (so-called by Toronto entertainment media pundits, here and there; neither I nor anyone I have ever met has ever called it "T.O." or "Hollywood North").  I have never heard of T.O. being akin to some L.A., or perhaps it would have been TorontAngeles or T.A. :) FWIW. S-Ranger 22:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * FWIW, the only time I've heard "t-dot" used was in the lyric This is how we rock it in the t-dot in a Shawn Desman song. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 23:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the info, and "for what that's worth (FWIW), I mean "FWT'sW"?" (I just read that it's "wiki-correct," from a mods user page, to fully state what acronyms mean before, um, "acronating" them), I think that Max Webster Toronto Tontos should hereby be added to the list. And who in Toronto didn't take credit for Rush's Lakeside Park and are we also Willows in the Breeze? : )  FWINW, I mean "for what it's not worth (FWINW)". : ) --S-Ranger 23:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * T-dot, or T-dot-Oh are definitely known nicknames for me. It's generally used as a joke, probably because of that Shawn Desman song, but it's definitely acknowledged in my neighborhood.


 * The last time I saw any nicknames for Toronto, T-dot was explained and verified fairly well. What you cite above is original "research" (hearsay not published by a reliable verifiable source).  We all hear things about everything but without verifiability it's original research (and/or hearsay that involves no research other than "I heard..." and such) and thus cannot be used in articles.  I hope it doesn't come across as some lecture, it's not from me, it's Wikipedia policy and it's sort of addressed towards to comment above but is public so nothing personal.  --S-Ranger 15:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * T-dot as a nickname is still present in the Toronto's name sub-article along with all the others. For a history of the usage of this term I recommend checking out Saturday Night Magazine, and the article "From T-dot to Van City: how rappers like Choclair are rechristening our urban landscape" by Jason Anderson published on June 3rd, 2000 (Vol 115, Iss 6; pg. 38) and in the National Post (June 6th, 2000) which explains the history and origins of the term. Thylark 08:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the input but as I said, the last time I saw T-dot, it was explained well and had good verifiability. I was just commenting on the comment above re: anything anyone "hears," in "their neighborhood" (which is rarely the case; not in this town, maybe a few people in a neighborhood) doesn't amount to anything but hearsay and isn't verifiability. --S-Ranger 19:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * "T-Dot" has been around for years as hip hop/street lingo. I hope you didn't think Shawn Desman actually invented it, because it was around long before anybody but Shawn Desman's mom knew who Shawn Desman was. Bearcat 11:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)3

I understood "TO" to be nothing more than a simple two-letter abbreviation for convenience on the order of "NYC" for New York City, "CHI" for Chicago, or whatever. I've never seen a city abbreviation show concern for its province or state (would we expect "DM" for Detroit, Michigan?) Further, post offices have attempted to standardize provincial abbreviations to two letters (MI for Michigan, MN for Minnesota, ON and not ONT for Ontario, etc...), and attempting to extend that also for cities proved too awkward (thus "CHI" for Chicago, not "CH"). dgaubin 16:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Demographics & Religion
I was just wondering about the mention of the different Christian religions under the demographics section: "Roman Catholicism is the largest faith in the city of Toronto (not the Census Metropolitan Area), accounting for 31.4% in 2001, followed by the Anglican Church (20.1%) and other Christian denominations (Pentecostal, Baptist, Church of God etc. (10.8%)." I was thinking particularly of the usage of the word faith to describe different Christian faiths because as a Christian I believe that all Christians (Catholics & Protestants alike) have the same faith.

The difference lies in how one practices their faith and some of the finer details about how they differ. One example is that the Roman Catholic Church believes that in Communion they are literally eating Jesus' body through a spiritual transformation, but most Protestants interpret the passage "And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying "This is my body given for you; do this in rememberance of me." Both however believe in the Holy Trinity, Jesus' death and resurrection and that we must believe in that for salvation from our sins.  James 1789 03:26 10 May 2006 (UTC)

One denomination is distinct from another (or else they wouldn't congregate separately), and the word "faith" is used synonymously with "belief system" to indicate that, while all "Christians" (and there are many Catholics would would disagree they are "Christian") believe generally similar primary concepts, in fact they are different, and as such a word used to describe a distinct denomination is "faith".

Besides, the entrant is not a theological or doctrinal comment. It's a sociological category that discusses an aspect of the cultural make up of the city.

Toronto's Neighbourhoods
It would be good if some group effort could be put into building some unity and agreement in the Toronto Neighbourhood pages. Some of the information ends up being contradictory; for instance, on the Bloor Street page Portugal Village is listed as a community; however, the Portugal Village page says that the community is bound by Bathurst, Dundas, Queen and Trinity Bellwoods Park. This area doesn't include Bloor, so perhaps it shouldn't be listed as a community on Bloor St. I decided to start a discussion here, since it seems to me that agreement between the Toronto neighbourhood pages is a general issue. Perhaps there's another place for this discussion?--Stetson 04:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Toronto FC
since the team has been formally announced I have added it to the list of local sports teams and removed the comment about a future Toronto expansion by MLS Thetrump 21:14, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Toronto demographics-religion
Wow! I am utterly impressed by the Islamophobic tendencies expressed by the editors here. On the demographics section, the fact that Islam is the second predominant religion after christianity has been removed and substituted with Judaism. An explanation is need. The degree of Anti-Islamism is indeed beyond my comprehension!

70.26.44.14 23:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

May I refer you to a fundamental Wikipedia principle. Assume good faith, while Islam may have been overlooked in this article (or even deliberately omitted or removed by one individual editor), it is wrong to assume that it was due to Islamophobia or anti-Islamic beliefs on the behalf of all the editors. That is equally insulting and dreogatory of most Wikipedia editors. The most that we can be guilty of is not noticing or realising the significance of the ommission, to call that islamophobia is to exaggerate the sin out of all proportion. Please bear in mind almost all of us are trying to improve Wikipedia not push some anti-Islamic POV. Dabbler 01:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Checking the page history, I notice Islam was included in its correct place and percentage until it was removed on May 19, only a couple of days ago. I don't know why it was removed then but to accuse all Wikipedia editors in general of Islamophobia is not appropriate. It was there and it has been restored. Dabbler 02:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

While my intention was not to disrespect or deplore anyone, I have to admit I was rather rude and I resorted to generalisation in my aforementioned scribbles. But I have been overwhelmed, for quite a while now, by virtue of the excessive anti-Islamic messages in the society/media which are expressed through tacit/politically correct ways. Again, my apologies if anyone's heart is broken. But I urge you to have a sense of empathy towards your fellow Torontanians who are constantly bombarded with degrading/insulting/racist comments on a daily basis at the heart of Canada's main-city. For this reason, I may be deemed quite "sensitive" in issues pertaining to respect/recognition for individual rights. 70.26.44.14 03:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

You can't run away from the PC police even on Wikipedia it seems. Part of the mission of Wikipedia is to avoid the condescending political correctness that you find increasingly in other media. I know this is the Toronto article and we all know how fond Torontonians are of avoiding conflict, no matter the cost, but Wikipedia is beyond vapid political correctness. Sorry, but if you don't like it there is nothing we can do, its the way of the wiki. rasblue 21:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear Rasblue, Could you kindly expound upon your previous remarks with regards to the Political correctness. I was merely pointing out to the fact that a significant data (the percentage comprised by the self-described Muslims) has been DELIBERATELY ommited. So are you simply stating that the ommition is part of wikipedia's policy. Forgive me, but I need more clarification. 70.26.44.14 02:37, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The United Church of Canada, which is the largest Protestant Christian denomination in Canada, is not listed. I think it has more adherents than the Anglican church.Arthur Ellis 16:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * In the City of Toronto? Both the Anglican and United Church of Canada claim to have the largest denominations of Protestants in the Canadas, by using different methods to calculate "membership."  From the 2001 Census' City of Toronto stats [press Ctrl+End to see the table and source from StatsCan't re: religious groups in Tarrana] it looks like the Catholics have the biggest numbers in the City of Toronto: though I haven't added up the various sects of Christians, which is their problem: unite as Protestents using that name and only that name and thou shall get thine own category and be enumerated as One.


 * If you're referring to the Canadian status of the two (main) "battling" Protestent organizations, both claiming to have the "most members" (or whatever term(s) they use; sheep) in the Canadas, then the Canada page would be the place to expound and extoll such. --S-Ranger 01:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The article is a little too long!
It's biased that cities like London, Toronto, New York City and Los Angeles get articles with over 14 or 15 sections, while cities such as Paris, Sydney, Tokyo ect. are reduced to a minor 10 or 11?? This really needs to be changed, either making the articles shorter, or make them all equal (which is much more fair). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jackp (talk • contribs).
 * Actually, the articles on Paris (55.6 kB, 8162 words) and Sydney (45.1 kB, 6522 words) are larger than the Toronto article (42.4 kB, 5984 words). It really isn't an issue of how many headings are used.  Although efforts are constantly being made to move information into subarticles (where appropriate), so as to keep the size of the main Toronto article under control (similar to efforts for articles on other cities), each article is different, and a "one solution fits all" approach would not seem practical.  --Skeezix1000 12:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Not only is it good to compare the word lengths of articles for a more objective comparison, but to also recognize that Wikipedia is constantly growing as volunteers make contributions. If you have something to add to the Paris article, by all means go ahead and add it. Chances are, if there is a French Wikipedia, the Paris article would be bigger. dgaubin 17:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

team logos
why were the logos for all Toronto teams removed? Thetrump 21:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

population (again)
Although technically correct, stating that Toronto is the "fifth most populous in North America" is a little misleading. Many people may form the wrong impression that it is the fifth largest urban area in North America. It is actually 13th...or so. One can argue this a little, depending on where one limits each urban area, but Toronto is definitely nowhere near the fifth most populous centre. Not that this was said, but it will be believed by many.(see http://www.citypopulation.de/World.html) Did I just make sense here? [canadaguy]
 * Actually, the statement is "it is the most populous city in Canada and the fifth most populous in North America", which has a clearly implied "fifth most populous city in North America" meaning. If you don't like this wording, you're more than welcome to update it, but the intention here is clear - it is the core city population that is being compared.
 * Regarding urban areas, there has been previous discussion on this talk page about this. Each country creates its own urban area definition; Canadian CMAs and American CSAs are quite different, with the latter being much broader in scope. There were rumours that Statistics Canada would introduce a new urban area definition, for which it would release data based on the 2006 census, but that info won't be available until at least late 2007. Mind  matrix  14:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Statistics Canada has a definition for urban areas here that is almost the same as the US Census Bureau definition. Note that this is different from metropolitan areas which include secondary urban areas around a primary urban core plus surrounding rural territory. Canadian CMAs and US metropolitan statistical areas (MSAs) are similar except that Canada uses Census Subdivisions (CSDs) as building blocks while the US uses counties. CSAs are groups of MSAs with significant employment interchange. Polaron | Talk 15:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, so we agree that CMAs and CSAs are not equivalent. If I read your statement correctly, you're saying that MSAs and CMAs are equivalent; if so, those two lists suggest that the Toronto metropolitan area is eighth by population (if Mexico City is included too). I'm not sure I agree that the two definitions are that close a match, though. For example, the Philadelphia MSA seems to span a very broad area. This is probably equivalent to an area like the Golden Horseshoe, though that region isn't defined by StatsCan metrics (or maybe the Greater Toronto Area). Conversely, Metro Detroit is probably understated, since it doesn't include Windsor, Ontario.
 * Anyway, this comparison belongs in the appropriate metropolitan area article; this article has the correct core city population comparisons. Clearly, someone finds the information presented in the introduction confusing or misleading, so we should try to re-phrase it to make it clear what is being compared.  Mind  matrix  16:14, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * They are comparable in the sense that they use similar delineation methods. The difference is that CMAs use census subdivisions which are much smaller than US counties. They would be near equivalent if minor civil divisions were used instead of counties. The result is that, intrinsically, the MSAs have a larger rural fringe component than CMAs. In terms of population size, however, they should be comparable.


 * Going back on topic. I added a footnote some time ago in that "fifth most populous city in North America" statement which should make what is being claimed clear. I couldn't blend it into the main text without disrupting the flow so I made it into a footnote. Polaron | Talk 16:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I saw the footnote a while ago. Perhaps we can pare down the introduction to only mention that Toronto is the centre of the GTA, Golden Horseshoe, the CMA etc, and then treat the subject in more detail in the demographics section. This may have the additional benefit of making the intro easier to read, and maybe open it up to the inclusion of other information. Mind  matrix  16:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to second this point. Also, I want to suggest that the statistic either be changed to eighth, adding [Sao Paolo] (10M), [New York City] (8M) and [Rio De Janeiro] (5M) or quote the major source from which it is being drawn and present context.
 * Rio De Janeiro and Sao Paolo are in Brazil, which has never been in North America. New York City is already included in the comparison. Mind  matrix  14:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It is "fun with figures", as metro Detroit, Greater Miami-Dade, Greater San Francisco, and quite a few other US metro areas are larger than Toronto. The population figure of eight million for the "Golden Horseshoe" area is also way too high. Arthur Ellis 16:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Comparing the populations of administrative municipalites (cities within their incorporated territory) is extremely misleading, as some cities have annexed most of their suburbs (like Toronto) whereas some cities have annexed no suburbs (like San Francisco), so you end up with crazy results if you make such comparisons. For example, the City of Rome (whose territory covers all its suburbs) has 2.5 million inhabitants, whereas the City of Paris (confined to central Paris) has only 2.1 million inhabitants. Comparing the population of these two municipalities, we would end up with a claim that Rome is more populated than Paris, which is nonsense.


 * Here is a more objective way to look at international comparisons. The Geopolis database, compiled every 10 years by the University of Avignon, defines urban areas for all countries in the world using the same definition for all countries. They determine the limits of urban areas using satellite pictures. I have the 2000 Geopolis database with me. According to the list, in 2000 the Toronto urban area had 5.1 million inhabitants and was the 7th most populated urban area in Northern America, behind NY-Philadelphia (26.5 million), Los Angeles (14.0 million), Chicago (8.3 million), Boston (6.2 million), Washington (6.1 million), and San Francisco (5.3 million). Hardouin 01:07, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * OK. I've mentioned on this talk page, and elsewhere, that comparisons are difficult at best, and generally irrelevant in most cases. I neither support nor oppose the comparisons; rather, I want to ensure that what's compared is at least valid. By the way, Toronto didn't actually annex the suburbs - they were forcibly amalgamated by the provincial government. I've never seen Geopolis; I'll take a look at. In the meantime, perhaps its best if we remove rankings from city articles, and leave them for those dedicated "rankings" articles instead.
 * One issue I have is that satellite imagery tends not to capture information such as zones of economic influence. A city like Barrie, Ontario is heavily influenced by Toronto economically, but is not part of the contiguous urban zone. Then again, it would capture cross-jurisdictional areas, like Detroit-Windsor, which aren't normally measured by other means. Mind  matrix  01:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Geopolis database is about urban areas, not about metropolitan areas. Urban areas are contiguously built-up areas, which can be determined by looking at satellite pictures. It's all explained in detail on the Geopolis website (in English). Hardouin 02:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what good it will do, but I have replaced the word "city" with "municipality" and included the July 1, 2005 population estimate (and source) for the municipality of Toronto (it happens to be a municipality of type City; one municipality with one city hall, one mayor, one city council) and "municipal" populations are all I have ever used to compare, well, the municipal populations of one municipality to another -- not "urban areas" or "metro areas" or anything but the main, single municipality of any city/city-region. If it has more than one municipality then only the municipality that has the main urban (downtown) core is counted.

Why? Would it have been fair to simply pick the one of the former six municipalities of the former Metropolitan Toronto, North York, "uptown" at best, something that wouldn't have existed without the downtown core, simply because it happened to have the most residents? Or would one pick the municipality called Toronto, regardless of its population, out of the six former municipalities of the former Metropolitan Toronto?

If other cities want to amalgamate the municipalities they contain (whatever types of municipalities they happen to be) into one and dump the former city/town/village halls that the other municipalities used to have, the postal address names of the former municipality/municipalities (resulting in duplicated and quadruplicated street names), basically wipe them off the face of the planet as separate municipalities -- as was done to the former Metropolitan Toronto -- then that is up to them. Until they do, only the main municipality of the city is counted as its main municipal ("city" if it happens to be called a City; Montréal is a municipality of type Ville) population.

This is not a "metropolitan" (or urban area of) Toronto article, because there is no Metropolitan Toronto. Its former six municipalities (and former six city halls) were forcibly amalgamated by the "Ontario" feds, in 1998. They no longer exist in any official capacity and that's that.

Get rid of the municipalities of  East,  West,  Heights, etc., in your city, turn them all into one municipality, with one city hall/one mayor/one city council for the former however many municipalities -- and then you'll have very clear comparisons to make with this single municipality, regarding this article: which is not the Greater Toronto Area, which at least is an administration area of the "Ontario" feds, or (totally irrelevant) Toronto [Census] Metropolitan Area article (if there is such an article; which may un-confuse many given that it uses the word "metropolitan" as though there is some Toronto CMA "metro" coordination, of any sort, at any level [that means anything] going on around the irrelevant Toronto [C]MA -- and there is not). --S-Ranger 03:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

GTA Population
Irrelevant! I hope it's okay for me to delete my own edits. Good work Kelw, absolutely right, the links to the Greater Toronto Area and Golden Horseshoe and south-central Ontario/Golden Horseshoe and southern Ontario (and the Quebec City-Windsor Corridor, which is called the Windsor-Quebec City corridor by Statistics Canada and W-QCC and such by everything else I've ever read, other than maybe VIA Rail; Toronto is a rather important transportation/communications hub in the Windsor-Quebec City corridor and the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor)and Ontario and Canada and North America and Earth are all anyone needs: to go check whatever from links on this page, passing mention with no duplication of information, whatever they feel like checking on, if anything, on other pages where the information belongs, due to this being the City of Toronto article (not this talk page but the main article connected to it).

As with all Toronto CMA info-stats on this article, create a Toronto CMA article because all Toronto CMA garbage is going off this, the City of Toronto, article. --S-Ranger 12:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Websites
Why doesn't www.TorontoForums.ca qualify to be listed? It does allow people (domestic and international) to ask any questions they have, and to discuss local issues. It also has news feed from multiple sources, making it easier to obtain relevant information on a field of interest. - Ben
 * It seems to be a fairly small forum with only some 600 members. We also don't generally add links to discussion forums, and they are included at External links in the "links to normally avoid" section. - SimonP 00:34, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

TorontoForums.ca has undergone some major updates (it now offers a comprehensive summer guide as well as news/weather feeds that update 4x daily). Would it be considered relevant yet, as it is an relevant resource as well as a message board? I am curious as to what level of content makes it noteworthy. - Ben


 * Forums generally aren't noteworthy; there are simply too many of them. People chatting about things isn't encyclopedic. If you want a link to your site, you should offer something truly compelling - a history of the city and each of its neighbourhoods, or generally information we can't find elsewhere. The Calendar section has lots of potential (as do some other sections), but is under-used right now. Wikipedians will generally dismiss the "forum" compenent of your site, so it is the other information which will determine the value of your site to Wikipedia. Hope this helps... Mind  matrix  15:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

garbage
in the "City Issues" section the comment under the picture is labeled as a "Rubbish Bin". However, since this article is about Toronto where it is normally referred to "Garbage Bin" shouldn't it be used instead? --Trump 15:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:BB -- k.lee 20:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * heh, yeah. I recently just started to edit articles so I'm still figuring the process out Trump 13:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Terrorism Concerns
This might sound like im tempting fate or something, but how come there isnt a bit about the threat of terrorism?

Im just curious cause Canada had been named by Al Qaida as a target. Even an idiot could figure out that Toronto is could be a good target... Jak722 03:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * What would you say that couldn't be say about any other large city in any number of countries? Its certainly not a defining characteristic of the Toronto I know. Yes, some people are fearful of terrorism, the city/provincial/federal police have anti-terrorism planning and training as part of their activities. Al-Qaida may have named Canada but there is no specific threat to Toronto. Dabbler 12:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fair enough. :) Jak722 04:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Ummm..., you might want to re-think that.64.26.147.111 15:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * So you really believe that this bunch of clowns were a serious terrorist threat? A secret oconspiracy of teenagers and young men led by an openly Islamist ranter, playing paintball in the woods and telling everyone their plans over the Internet. Even CSIS and the RCMP should have been able to catch this bunch. At least we can be grateful that they didn't shoot them out of hand as the British police do.

Um...they had 3 tonnes of explosives and detonators, what exactly are you talking about? Duhon

No, the police alleged that they tried to obtain three tons of fertiliser that could be used as part of an explosive. In my Canada you are considered innocent until proved guilty in court. Dabbler 21:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * you're innocent in court until proven guilty. In my book, these bastards have already been tried convicted and executed (well not executed, I'm against capital punishment, but you get the point) --Trump 02:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You sound just like a terrorist who hates our liberties and freedoms and what Canada stands for. Lets hope CSIS doesn't manage to track you down.


 * Ummm, I just want to remind you guys that I asked this question BEFORE this whole thing happened... I didn't know something like this would really happen... Jak722 22:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Demographics
This section needs work. There are some ambiguous statements, and sseveral long lists. A separate article exists for this information already, so could we pare it down to a short summary of the most salient points. Anybody have an opinion about which points are most salient? Mind matrix  20:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Which article are you referring to?--Thylark 15:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Mindmatrix: None of them. Everthing is Toronto CMA, not City of Toronto. --S-Ranger 01:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Terrorism Concerns
This might sound like im tempting fate or something, but how come there isnt a bit about the threat of terrorism?

Im just curious cause Canada had been named by Al Qaida as a target. Even an idiot could figure out that Toronto is could be a good target... Jak722 03:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * What would you say that couldn't be say about any other large city in any number of countries? Its certainly not a defining characteristic of the Toronto I know. Yes, some people are fearful of terrorism, the city/provincial/federal police have anti-terrorism planning and training as part of their activities. Al-Qaida may have named Canada but there is no specific threat to Toronto. Dabbler 12:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fair enough. :) Jak722 04:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Ummm..., you might want to re-think that.64.26.147.111 15:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * So you really believe that this bunch of clowns were a serious terrorist threat? A secret oconspiracy of teenagers and young men led by an openly Islamist ranter, playing paintball in the woods and telling everyone their plans over the Internet. Even CSIS and the RCMP should have been able to catch this bunch. At least we can be grateful that they didn't shoot them out of hand as the British police do.

Um...they had 3 tonnes of explosives and detonators, what exactly are you talking about? Duhon

No, the police alleged that they tried to obtain three tons of fertiliser that could be used as part of an explosive. In my Canada you are considered innocent until proved guilty in court. Dabbler 21:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * you're innocent in court until proven guilty. In my book, these bastards have already been tried convicted and executed (well not executed, I'm against capital punishment, but you get the point) --Trump 02:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You sound just like a terrorist who hates our liberties and freedoms and what Canada stands for. Lets hope CSIS doesn't manage to track you down.


 * Ummm, I just want to remind you guys that I asked this question BEFORE this whole thing happened... I didn't know something like this would really happen... Jak722 22:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

CN Tower
I think that there should be a section in the main toronto article about the cn tower, not just in the attractions article, seeing that the cn tower is what toronto is internationally known for. I would have to disagree with that point, Toronto is the central               financial hub of Canada, which is the 11 largest Economy in the world going by GDP. Also, to adress your point excactly, the CN tower is in the "see also" section which is good enough because the CN tower is a sperate topic then the city of toronto.

Agreed, the tower does not warrant a seperate section, it is also in tallest structures in the world article, which by the way will be ending its 30 year+ reign for being the tallest free-standing structure in the world by ealry 2008 when Burj Dubai is completed.

Attractions?
Shouldn't attractions be apart of "Culture"? Jackp 06:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Name?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe "Toronto" means "meeting place" instead of "place where trees stand in the water". It's clearly stated in an atlas I have. (Unless that's wrong.) G . H  e  17:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Have you looked at Toronto's name? It has a reliable reference (NRC) you can read online. Hope this helps. Mind  matrix  19:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Sizable minority groups
Under Demographics. Okay, I think this is starting to get silly now. What defines sizable. It seems like people are coming to the article and adding each and every nationality they can think of someone living in Toronto may originally have been and the list is getting rather large. Just what defines sizable? Would this be better if someone could get hold of some demographic information and just list those that make up 1% or higher of the population rather than listing every single ethnicity that exists in Toronto (as other cities don't list every single ethnicity that exists in their cities). Ben W Bell  talk  06:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Moreover, this level of detail should probably remain in the Demographics of Toronto article, rather than in the main Toronto article. --Skeezix1000 19:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Eastern Europeans?
I've never heard of an ethnic group called Eastern Europeans. Eastern Europe contains Romania and Hungary, which are not even linguistically related to the rest of Eastern Europe's varied ethnic groups and nations. Even if there happen to be no Hungarians or Romanians in Toronto, jumbling the Polish, the Ukranians, Czechs, Slovaks, Belorussians, etc into one homogenous lump of Eastern Europe is akin to an amalgamation of Portuguese, Spanish, Italian and Greek ancestry into Southern Europeans, or equating Tunisians and Nigerians as people of African heritage. Someone with access to the statistics should fix this idiocy. Unigolyn 01:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Umm, Southern European, and African are actually fairly standard ways of dividing people, as is Eastern European. Not that I disagree that more precision would be nice. - SimonP 01:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Except for the fact that Poles and Czechs typically don't care for being called Eastern Europeans, as they believe themselves to be Central Europeans. I agree with Unigolyn -- it's not a helpful categorization. --Skeezix1000 11:15, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

culture
I'm going to try and fix up the culture section as much as possible over the next while, it just seems really listy. I began with nightlife (not done) and just removed the "nicknames" category as it was neither very relevant and had already been covered in the introduction --Trump 20:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Not enough pictures for renowned city like this!?
What happened to all the great photos of the skyline I used to see on this page? There where some great pictures, aswell as all the Toronto sports team logos. Pictures really add to articles, and this article isn't what it was without them.

I think we need more photos of the skyline, Rogers Center and we need the sports teams logos back.

Sports teams/article length
In an effort to reduce the length of this already too-long article, I have removed (again) the name of former and minor sports teams. These appear in the List of sports teams in Toronto branch article. The main article cannot include all information about Toronto. (For crying out loud, the list included five Australian rules football teams. Should these really be in the main article about Toronto?) There is probably other information that should be moved to branch articles. Ground Zero | t 16:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There are a number of lists that we could probably do without in the main article that can be move to subarticles -- e.g. important people from Toronto, lists of random nightclubs, etc. --Skeezix1000 18:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think what happens is that someone adds a few key itemsto a list to represent Toronto, and others come along to add thir favourites, and then others try to make the list complete. I have moved the growing list of neighbourhoods to that branch article, and the list of important people to a new branch article. I encourage others to be bold in trimming this article. Ground Zero | t 05:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the list of neighbourhoods was getting unwieldy over the last few days, with duplication of the main article. I've been trying to make minor fixes to links, but I didn't know what to do with the size of the list. --Brat32 06:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Too long
This article needs to be cleaned up. First of all a few suggestions,

1. “Other Wiki Sites” doesn’t deserve its own section, it should be added as a sub-section under External Links.

2. Wikipedia isn’t a travel guide nor is it a website of lists of places, and extensive information (it isn’t even information, just lengthy lists) on food, nightlife, points of interest and festivals should be added to Wiki Travel on Toronto.

3. “Important People” doesn’t belong on the page, it should be added under the See Also section. The same with “Parks”, “Media” and “Sport Teams”, although sport teams could be added under “See Also”.

4. Attractions and Culture are to similar to be separate sections….so I was thinking about adding “Attractions” under “Culture”

Also, I think we need a few more pictures, maybe one of the skyline, the paranorma from the CN Tower is excellent, and I was thinking about maybe adding a night view from the same place. Jackp 10:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

If no one replies in a week, then I'll remove it and tidy it up. Jackp 03:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Jack, I understand that you have now been blocked indefinitely, but I still wanted to respond to your suggestions: 1) Why? 2) I tend to agree with you for some of the lists (e.g. Points of Interest, Nightlife), but not necessarily others.  Which specific ones concern you?  How would you address your concerns?  There may be some information in those lists that is worth keeping on Wikipedia. 3) "Important People" has already been eliminated, replaced by a link to another article.  Same with media, and the sports team chart has since been restricted to major league sports.  I agree with you on the parks list, but the information just shouldn't be deleted.  There may be a way of incorporating some of the key locations under Attractions. 4) There is some overlap that could be eliminated.  However, culture and attractions are not the same thing.  The CN Tower and the Scarborough Bluffs are attractions, for example, but wouldn't necessarily fit under culture.  I believe the two categories should remain separate.  Others may agree with you, though.  You should get more feedback and consensus before making that change. --Skeezix1000 17:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I have been bold and moved the list of festivals to Culture in Toronto and the list of attractions to Attractions in Toronto. This is an overview article, and therfore need not and should not cover everything there is to know about Toronto. The article remains long and unwieldy, and therefore of limited use to someone wanting a quick introduction ot the city. the purpose of branch articles generally is to allow inclusion of more detialed material for the use of readers looking for detail. I have not deleted any of the info, but moved it to articles that are a short click away. Ground Zero | t 20:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Influence?
Toronto is a global city, exerting significant regional, national, and international influence ...

Alright, I can see "significant regional and national" influence being the economic and entertainment center of the country, but international? I think that is possibly a major exaggeration. Is Toronto really on the same level as New York, Paris, London, and Tokyo? DragonRouge 16:56, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * yup, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_city  toronto is 9 point Beta World City, which is just shy of being a full blown Alpha --Trump 00:35, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Toronto does have an international influence, but not as significant as NYC, Paris and London (not sure about Tokyo). It's behind San Francisco and Sydney in the Beta World City section, so I don't think it has as much influence as San Fran or Sydney either. I'd propably remove that section and just put something along the lines as "Toronto is a Global City, exerting a strong national and regional influence. Jackp 03:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Jack, use some common sense. It is listed after San Francisco and Sydney in the Global City article because the list is alphabetical.  As for your suggestion that the section be removed, that is odd coming from someone who is constantly inserting hyperbole into the Sydney article (and corresponding tit-for-tat edits to the articles on other major cities), and has been blocked twice for doing so.  --Skeezix1000 12:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you use common sense! I've learnt what is accepted on Wikipedia for godnesss sake and Toronto doesn't have a storng international influence. Jackp 03:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * we've given you definitive proof that Toronto does, in fact, have a strong international influence. What more do you want? --Trump 21:54, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It might be a better idea to keep "significant influence" on the regional and domestic scale, and then simply state that Toronto is a major world city. The way it's currently worded makes it appear as if Toronto has a great deal of global influence. That's simply not true, just as it wouldn't be true to claim that San Francisco or Sydney exert "significant" international influence. Come on. We can also debate as to how neutral the rankings provided above are, since they are only coming from a single source, and it's not exactly the United Nations. Toronto, Sydney, and San Francisco are wonderful cities, but we have to be realistic and try to keep a neutral mind about things. DragonRouge 15:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

FYI Jackp has left the building for an indefinite period. --Brat32 15:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * : "Sydney exertes significant international and national influence and it has been classified as a "Beta" global city by the Globalization and World Cities Study Group and Network." LOL DragonRouge 15:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * lol, this guy is such a wanker. Like seriously, who does that? Is he that determined to make Sydney appear to be the greatest city on earth? (don't get me wrong, I love Sydney...I'm dual Canadian/Aussie) --Trump 16:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Um, why didn't anyone point out that Canada is the largest foreign trading partner on the planet with the largest economy on the planet: the U.S.? That is where Toronto's "significant" global influence exists (for the most part, and is why it is a Beta global city; usually right under Los Angeles). If it were Toronto and Sydney, then it would not exert "significant" global influence, because Australia does not have a "significant" global economy. The U.S. most certainly does, and due to the FTA/NAFTA, the Canadas with it ... and as Canada's undisputed financial, business, manufacturing, etc., etc., center, that is how and why it is significant. S-Ranger 00:02, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Education section -- listing schools
if we start listing high schools and elementary schools, this article will quickly become swamped with links to the hunderds of schools in Toronto. there is already a separate list article, List of educational institutions in Toronto. please add to this article any schools you think are missing. This is intended to be an overview of Toronto, not a compendium of all things Toronto. Ground Zero | t 18:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

External links - goodoldtoronto.com
User:72.56.115.178 has been adding his site in numerous articles and I have been deleting them all, the latest being here. He has now added it back again. I've made some comments on it in User_talk:Brat32 I'd rather other people judge the merits of having the site listed, before I delete it again. --Brat32 02:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

"Nightlife" in the article.
I wish to open a discussion regarding the "nightlife" section of the article, which has a few links to websites owned by various nightclubs around the Toronto area, specifically Blvd Room, Guvernment, MINK, Purgatory and Tonic. I really don't believe they should be there since they are mostly spam sights. I mean, if you have links to just a few, why not a link to all? It really seems like advertising for these specific nightclubs' websites. --Euges116 03:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, once you add one, it's hard to justify stopping others being added. I think if a "nightlife" is notable enough to get it's own Wiki page, we can link to that. eg. The Docks or El Mocambo (and also see [Category:Culture of Toronto]) though a list. --Brat32 03:24, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

photo Gallery for toronto?
is it possible to add a photo gallery in wikipedia articles? I thought it would be much better to have a gallery of pictures and images rather than some scattered across the entire article... --Jwembley10 03:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's possible to add a gallery to Wikipedia. Or is it? --SimonQ 19:55, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well yiou can add a number ofthumbnailed pictures in one location and call it a gallery. See Iraq for an example. Dabbler 20:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Picture galleries are quite common for articles with little prose. However, a good article (and Toronto strives to be one) has a balance between prose and images. Overuse of photos in this particulat case can actually lower the quality of the article. There is a linked page at commons (commons:Toronto, Ontario) with pictures from Toronto, that's the right place to add photos. Only imags relevant to the article content should be included in the article page on wikipedia. --Qyd 20:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Blanking, Please Stop.
Whoever is blanking this page, please stop. It is highly annoying and frustrating! --Euges116 14:11, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you want them to stop blanking the pages as they should be left intact as a record of discussions. Dabbler 16:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Haha! Sorry, my bad... --Euges116 16:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks like Bart Simpson1 removed the content, and it was not restored properly. I'm not sure how to put it back together but I'm putting back what I can. --Brat32 18:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * This page is also being vandalized by User:141.117.2.238 who is pretending to be a nice guy by complaining on User_talk:Bart_simpson1 about blanking. He has a history of vandalizing other articles that I have edited, in retaliation for me removing some of his commercial links from here. --Brat32 18:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think there are four people vandalizing these pages. I see four unique IPs... Maybe mistake tho... don't have my glasses on. --SimonQ 19:55, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

new "905 Exurb" Photo?
since the current photo in this section is horribly out of date, I went searching for a new one to use. I found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TorontoOct2005Nasa.jpg courtesy of NASA. However, It shows much less detail of Toronto specifically but more of the Golden Horseshoe in general. To switch or not to switch? --Trump 21:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No switch. It's not as clear, and as you said, is too broad, covers too much area. --Euges116 03:00, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * okay, but I still think we need to find a better photo --Trump 18:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

What would a "905" anything be doing in the City of Toronto article? --S-Ranger 08:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * you're wondering what the GTA has to do with Toronto? --Trump 19:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Not other than what I've posted about it, just to get the link to the GTA in the intro of Toronto. This is the City of Toronto page/article/mainspace, not the Greater Toronto Area page. --S-Ranger 13:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think any discussion of Toronto should include a mention of the urban area. In fact, we already have that, though we should trim off the list of municipalities in the exurbs section (I'll do that right after posting this comment). Toronto's effect on the suburbs and exurbs is significant enough that requires this article to have something more than just a link to Greater Toronto Area or Golden Horseshoe. Mind  matrix  14:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It does; mention. I added a link for Toronto CMA and put it in context.  What more could one need? It's the confusion over the word "metropolitan" (as in Metropolitan Toronto (dissolved), which used to be stated in the mainspace article as "metropolitan Toronto", which is misleading and confusing [and incorrect, IMO] on the City of Toronto page.  I concur that Toronto isn't just Toronto (and added that if Toronto alone is stated, it usually means the GTA or Toronto CMA, not City of Toronto alone), but this is the City of Toronto article and the GTA has a separate article, as should the Toronto CMA.  IMO, to eliminate more arguments about "5th largest municipality..." which used to state city instead of municipality then went straight into "metropolitan Toronto" (CMA population).  Technically, everything stated on the Greater Toronto Area page, including the version based on satellite imagery that includes the Detroit area, Buffalo/Niagara Falls, U.S. area, etc., might as well be on the City of Toronto page if nothing is going to be broken up and explained in proper context for the subject/article at hand. --S-Ranger 21:10, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

City of Toronto is "metropolitan" Toronto CMA since when?
Why is ("must") the totally irrelevant, to everything in the GTA, ridiculous, confederate Toronto CMA be discussed in the City of Toronto and Greater Toronto Area articles as opposed to creating another page for the irrelevant thing, stating its total irrelevance along with a few irrelevant stats about its irrelevance?

All that is needed are three tables, like so:

Greater Toronto Area vs. Toronto [census] metropolitan area, 2001

After each census subdivision (CSD) / municipality name the census division (CD) name is abbreviated as follows:

TD = Toronto Division PR = Peel Regional Municipality YR = York Regional Municipality DR = Durham Regional Municipality HR = Halton Regional Municipality SC = Simcoe County DC = Dufferin County

___________________________________________________________________                                                Population Name                              Type   2001      1996     Change ___________________________________________________________________ Toronto (TD)                        C 2,481,494 2,385,421 A 96,073 Mississauga (PR)                    C   612,925   544,382   68,543 Brampton (PR)                       C   325,428   268,251   57,177 Markham (YR)                        T   208,615   173,383   35,232 Vaughan (YR)                        C   182,022   132,549   49,473 Burlington (HR) * .................. C  150,836   136,976   13,860 Oakville (HR)                       T   144,738   128,405   16,333 Oshawa (DR) * ...................... C  139,051   134,364    4,687 Richmond Hill (YR)                  T   132,030   101,725   30,305 Barrie-unofficial or otherwise (SC) C   103,710    79,191   24,519 Whitby (DR) * ...................... T   87,413    73,794   13,619 Pickering (DR)                      C    87,139    78,989    8,150 Ajax (DR)                           T    73,753    64,430    9,323 Clarington (DR) * .................. T   69,834    60,615    9,219 Newmarket (YR)                      T    65,788    57,125    8,663 Caledon (PR)                        T    50,595    39,893   10,702 Halton Hills (HR)                   T    48,184    42,390    5,794 Aurora (YR)                         T    40,167    34,857    5,310 Georgina (YR)                       T    39,263    34,777    4,486 Milton (HR)                         T    31,471    32,104     -633 Whitchurch-Stouffville (YR)         T    22,008    19,835    2,173 [New Tecumseth] (SC) **             T    26,141    22,904 A  3,237 [Orangeville] (DC) **               T    25,248    21,498    3,750 [Bradford West Gwillimbury] (SC) ** T    22,228    20,213    2,015 [Whitchurch-Stouffville] (YR) **    T    22,008    19,835    2,173 East Gwillimbury (YR)               T    20,555    19,770      785 Scugog (DR) * ...................... TP  20,173     7,244    1,336 King (YR)                           TP   18,533    18,223      310 Uxbridge (DR)                       TP   17,377    15,882    1,495 Brock (DR) * ....................... TP  12,110    11,705      405 [Mono] (DC) **                      T     6,922     6,552      370 Chippewas of Georgina Island First Nation (YR)                  R       273       201       72 Mississaugas of Scugog Isand] (DR) * .............. R       51         ¶        ¶ ________________________________________________________________________ ¶ Incompletely enumerated Indian reserve or Indian settlement. For further information, see the “Special Notes”.

* ... Municipalities with one asterisk and a line of periods are in the version of the Toronto city-region the “Ontario” feds created but are not in the confederate “[census] metropolitan area” ([C]MA) version.

[]** Municipalities in brackets followed by two asterisks are not in the "Greater Toronto Area" the Ontario feds created but are in the confederate version of the Toronto city-region (MA).

Derived from: Statistics Canada - Population, Dwellings and Geography (Index), Census Subdivisions (CSDs) - Municipalities then by CMA and CD (Toronto District, Peel, York, Durham, Halton Regional Municipalities) to get both alleged “official Toronto city-regions”.

If the Greater Toronto Area Association of Municipalities (GTAAM) existed, had ever done anything, had ever released anything to the press or done anything at all on behalf of its version of the “official Toronto city-region” then its version would have been included as well. But the GTAAM does not exist, does nothing, has never represented anything in its version of the Toronto city-region against the “Ontario” feds or particularly against the Association of Municipalities of “Ontario” (AMO) -- so the GTAAM is of no relevance -- if it even exists other than around what Answers.com, Wikipedia, etc., claim(ed) about its version of Toronto and nothing else.

Date modified (by source): 2002-07-16 Last updated/checked (by me): 2005-02-18 _____

Census Subdivisions (Municipalities) not included in the Toronto [C]MA but included in the GTA

___________________________________________________________________                                                Population Name                              Type   2001      1996     Change ___________________________________________________________________ Burlington (HR) .................... C  150,836   136,976   13,860 Oshawa (DR) ........................ C  139,051   134,364    4,687 Barrie-unofficial or otherwise (SC) C   103,710    79,191   24,519 Whitby (DR) ........................ T   87,413    73,794   13,619 Clarington (DR) .................... T   69,834    60,615    9,219 Scugog (DR) ........................ TP  20,173     7,244    1,336 Brock (DR) ......................... TP  12,110    11,705      405 Mississaugas of Scugog Isand] (DR) ................ R       51         ¶        ¶ ___________________________________________________________________ TOTAL                                   583,178   503,889   79,289 ___________________________________________________________________

Census Subdivisions (Municipalities) added to the Toronto MA (in exchange for the above) but not included in the GTA

___________________________________________________________________                                                Population Name                              Type   2001      1996     Change ___________________________________________________________________ New Tecumseth (SC) ................. T   26,141    22,904 A  3,237 Orangeville (DC) ................... T   25,248    21,498    3,750 Bradford West Gwillimbury (SC) ..... T   22,228    20,213    2,015 Mono (DC) .......................... T    6,922     6,552      370 ___________________________________________________________________ TOTAL                                    80,539    71,167    9,372 ___________________________________________________________________

There is no more "metro" or "metropolitan" Toronto. It was amalgamated by the "Ontario" feds in 1998 as anyone who has read either of the aforesaid articles knows. So why is there any mention of "metro" or "metropolitan" Toronto on the City of Toronto page, other than as the former Metropolitan Toronto that hasn't existed for over 7 years?

Go ahead and point to the former Metropolitan Toronto's page, but the CMA means nothing to anyone or anything around here (other than perhaps whatever a "New Tecumseth" is, up in nowhere, cottage country in Simcoe County, or little Orangeville. way up and off in Dufferin County, Bradford West Gwillimbury in Simcoe County and "Mono" in Dufferin County -- all 80,529 of "y'all" in the 2001 Census; and due to the 400 (hwy), the Barrie "census agglomeration" (CA), even though it had 103,710 in resident population alone, more than Kingston or Abbotsford, which became CMAs in the 2001 Census, but not Barrie "because it's too close to Toronto," will be included as part of the CMA and GTA before ANY of the little towns/ditches above are even considered -- and should demand to be a CMA, not a CA, lumped in with the likes of the Labrador "City" (two municipalities of type Town), which didn't even have the prerequisite 10,000 in population for CAs in the 2001 Census).

I have contacted the "Ontario" Ministry (praise be to the Church of England; amen) of Finance to ask them what the real and nominal expenditure-based GDPs of the GTA are, and they will not respond. Perhaps if we all bombard them with e-mails, they will have no choice but to respond, because nothing else can possibly "know" what the real and nominal GDPs of the "GTA thing" they created, are.

The confederates/StatsCon knows: if they can come up with a GDP for the combined census subdivisions (CSDs) (municipalities) in the Toronto CMA, then they can do the same for the CSDs of the greater Toronto area (GTA), but the GTA is none of their business, so they don't.

They (the "Ontario" feds) created the mess, not StatsCON/StatsCan't or the confederates, so it is entirely up to them to provide us with at least the most basic economic information around (which Nunavut and PEI and such get in every StatsCon release, around everything) for the GTA and the City of Toronto (given that it out-populates all four provinces of the Atlantic Canadas combined and all three territories combined; or Saskatchewan and Manitoba and all three territories combined; or the "provinces" of Saskatchewan + Nova Scotia + Newfoundland & Labrador + Prince Edward Island combined); but they never reply.

Of what use (or even common sense) is a GDP, with no type of GDP stated (income-based, expenditure-based, industry-based; there are many ways to measure GDP), no source, no temporal aspect (as in, six business quarters combined, or 8, or "fiscal year(s)" or calendar year(s)?), let alone with no exchange rate, and in US$? : ) It's hilariousy worthless and most certainly is not accurate, even at $0.65 in US$.

Expenditure-based "real" (chained $1997) and nominal ("current prices" for the temporal period that must be stated, averaged out) GDP is needed in Canadian dollars (only; anyone can convert to whatever other currency at will; and unless the Bank of Canada rates are used, then all you end up with is some interest rate differential from another central bank to un-confuse), for both the City of Toronto and the GTA.

The Toronto CMA does not exist, other than around the far than worthless confederates, and it certainly does not belong on the City of Toronto page or Greater Toronto Area page, other than as one link to point to a page that proves its total irrelevance around here. --S-Ranger 01:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I'm against amalgamation. The most ridiculus amalgamation I have heard of is the Victoria County, Ontario-City of Kawartha Lakes amalgamation. I think you can look that up under the two, and Lindsay.

Barrie is a pretty suburban area in itself, while Kingston is a REAL city which, by the way, still has a larger population than Barrie. Although, it probably won't last due to Barrie's sprawl.

Dhastings 21:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Economy section (more)
In the last sentence of this section (as of the date/time of this edit):


 * "The Toronto financial industry is based on Bay Street, the city's equivalent to Wall Street in New York." (bolding for emphasis only)

It seems confusing to me, particularly given the (rebuffed) arguments about Toronto "significant global influence/reach," in the article, called out by a Sydney...ian as crap, but even s/he stated that it should be modified to Toronto having a significant regional or national [economic] influence, but not "global" (and it's not global on any major level; other than with the largest economy on the planet; the U.S., in the largest economic trading bloc on the face of the planet, in commerce, between the U.S. and Canadas; far moreso than the U.S. and the entire EU combined, in trading/economics).

I'm not comparing Bay Street to Wall Street, other than in context (which it's in on this page; it's only Toronto and only the Canadas, not NYC or the U.S.) but is Wall Street "the city's" [New York City's] huge eqivalent to the city's Bay Street in Toronto? Bay St. operates on an international level and is the country's equivalent to the U.S.'s Wall Street, not New York City's Wall St., unless geography is being confusingly (to me) mixed with economics/finance (insurance, real estate, marketing, etc).

I don't want to change it because there may be a purpose for stating:


 * "The Toronto financial industry is based on Bay Street, the city's equivalent to Wall Street in New York."

...as opposed to:


 * "The Toronto financial industry is based on Bay Street, the country's equivalent to Wall Street in New York." (formatting only for emphasis)

The "City of Toronto's" (or even South Ontario's or Windsor-Quebec City corridor's) dollar doesn't exist, let alone trade on the TSX: just the alleged "Canadian" dollar, which should be split into separate economic unions according to everything I've read, and due to the FTA/NAFTA and urban/rural, supply/demand based economies (as in the Windsor-Quebec City coridor and Lower Mainland-south Vancouver Island and U.S. can get all the oil and other raw/live and semi-processed resources it wants to out of the Albertas at about 25 cents on our dollar, if we kick the rest into another economic union; which would also allow us to fund the rest of the Canadas at about 25 cents on our dollar, depending on what we did with their shares of the federal debt). So how is Bay Street the "city's" equivalent to any other country's major exchanges?

Just curious; it doesn't read right to me. S-Ranger 23:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)