Talk:Tortoiseshell cat/Archive 1

[2003]
Has anyone noticed this? http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tortoiseshell-cat 71.145.134.12 (talk) Has anyone noticed that the picture on this page is not of a tortoiseshell cat but a calico cat?

Yes, I did and it irritated me. I have a tortoiseshell cat. I'll take a picture of her and post it later. B 16:13, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * The misconception is the reason a merge is suggested. I suggest renaming this 'Calico cat' or 'Tortoiseshell and white cat', which latter sounds a bit affected, I suppose but it's the correct British name, I think. Quill 22:05, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * In the UK she would usually be described as "tortoiseshell" (or "tortoiseshell-and-white" if you were being fussy). I think a merged article is best with both types describled.  I've started working on merge the two existing articles -- sannse (talk) 19:29, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Tortoiseshell cat" should not have been merged with "Tortoiseshell". There are other "tortoiseshell" animals and meanings to "tortoiseshell" besides only "Tortoiseshell cat". The material in "Tortoiseshell" should have been moved to "Tortoiseshell cat" and a more general article written about "Tortoiseshell". &mdash;B|Talk 13:21, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, I hadn't thought of that additional argument against the merge. Quill 19:44, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Oh bother - I wish you had told me that yesterday. Ok... I think the best way to preserve the history in this case is to do a cut and past transfer (as unusual as it is for that to be the right thing to do).  For now, I suggest that I C&P the text back to "Tortoiseshell cat", with the appropriate edit comment, and make "Tortoiseshell" a stub - leaving the old text in the history.  The other way to do it would be confusing because of the timings of the various page edits (merging the history would make it look as though the page were being switched between two versions).  That sound OK? -- sannse (talk) 20:08, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Didn't know you were watching; Lachat and I took this up at talk:cat--I thought that would be the one on everyone's watchlist. Ah, well....I suppose what you're saying is that you can't just 'undo' or 'revert' or whatever?  Well, I trust you to 'fix' it, but that still leaves us with the question of what to do.
 * I propose tortoiseshell (a disambig page;will also have jewellery and whatever) tortoiseshell cat for true torties with all references to same merged from both articles and Calico cat for the tortie and white, stating clearly that this is tortoiseshell and white in the UK. (calico cat was a redirect, so if you enter it now you get redirected to tortoiseshell cat and the page comes up and says 1. redirect tortoiseshell)


 * Quill 21:24, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

p.s. I got confused--brought this up at the cat article page instead of the Wikiproject talk page, which I can't find just at the moment. Sorry.Quill


 * Nope, I don't have cat on my list - just dog ;) I wouldn't have caught it if it was the cat wikiproject either - I only have this page on my list because I have a photo here. It was a manual merge - which is best for articles with history running on the same timescales.  I've reversed what I did - now a disambiguation article or other stub can be written at "tortoiseshell" (currently a redirect until that is done).  I'm not convinced that we need to split the page into "Calico cat" and "Tortoiseshell cat", it's easy enough to have the text suitable for both and, after all, there is very little difference (as I said, in the UK, "tortoiseshell" is commonly used for both - it's only if you are being fussy that you would specify "tortoiseshell-and-white").  Calico can better be left as a redirect, and this page as a combined article for the two IMO.  Is there really enough to say about tortoiseshell-and-white cats that isn't also true tortoiseshells? -- sannse (talk) 23:30, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I suggest redirecting Calico, Calico cat , Tortoiseshell and white and Tortoiseshell and white cat to Tortoiseshell cat. &mdash;B|Talk 13:14, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Will do, except for Calico, which is an article about calico fabric (it does ref. calico cat though). Lachatdelarue [[User talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]] 13:41, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Yep - all agreed -- sannse (talk) 13:50, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, this all works for me, kids, except that tortoiseshell redirects to tortoiseshell cat--wasn't that one of the issues? Quill 21:21, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and started the disambig page. Lachatdelarue [[User talk:Lachatdelarue|(talk)]] 14:50, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Tortie Photo
I took a and would like to put it in the gallery, but I see there has been some controversy over the amount of photos. I think four tortoiseshell photos is just the right amount, yes, but I believe my picture illustrates tortoiseshell better than does. That picture seems to have a lot of just plain black, and tortoiseshells generally have a lot more colors. Can I have the go ahead to replace the picture? I don't want to do it without confirmation that it's okay.

(P.S. Also, what's with all the unformatted talk at the top of the page? o.0)

Torbie?
Isn't torbie a specific type of tabby pattern? Quill 23:38, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * No, a torbie is basically either a calico or tortoiseshell with a "tabby modifier" gene, so the black is expressed as brown tabby, and the orange is expressed as orange tabby. A dilute or blue torbie has not only the tabby modifier but the dilute modifier (therefore black is expressed as gray/blue tabby and the orange is expressed as fawn tabby).  And so on.  -Anonymous stuck at work who can't remember how to sign off on these edits.
 * Just type four tildes in a row (~). See this editing text. Dieter Simon 00:57, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Tortoise shells?
Aren't the shells of tortoises usually brown and isn't calico a cotton material. The article hasn't answered the one thing I wanted to know. Where these odd cat terms come from.


 * This anon brings up a good point. The article should address why these terms are used. I'm assuming it's because the cat coat colors resemble a toirtoshell and the calico fabric pattern? Lachatdelarue (talk) 14:57, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, calico is a type of fabric, not a pattern. I should think it was pretty obvious that the word 'tortoiseshell' was used because it's reminiscent of the pattern on a tortoise.  Perhaps some enterprising person wants to research etymology (if that's the right word) of  'calico'?  Quill 22:29, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Calico (the etymology is simply that the word comes from "Calicut", the origin of the fabric); applied to an animal it means a blotched or spotted animal, especially one which is mostly white, with black and red patches - presumably this was a popular calico fabric pattern, as the cloth is white. "Tortoiseshell" in reference to the cat refers not to the appearance of the shell found on a living turtle, but to the appearance of the mottled horny substance of the shell of the hawksbill turtle used in inlaying and in making various ornamental articles, such as combs, where it appears with blotches of black and red. - Nunh-huh 22:36, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Why I have reformatted the photos of the cats
When you look at the page history of the article you can see that it was becoming quite untidy by 00:42 17 March. For the sake of article unity I thought it better to reformat the photos in "gallery" format, I know we all love to see our "darlings" in as good an appearance as possible, but when the images were appearing all over the place it didn't give that good over-all impression. So I hope you don't mind too much that I have taken this step. After all, it is a Wikipedia article the quality of which should guide us more than individual additions to the article. Dieter Simon 22:21, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Only problem is some of the images will not show up in the gallery tag. I added an old-style gallery beneath that one and moved the pictures that were not showing up in the top table into the bottom table. Any opinions on moving everything? DukeEgr93 11:11, 4 July 2006

Temperamental
"They are said to be very temperamental. (A generality disputed by some calico owners.)" Well now, I've owned two calico cats and I can confirm they're both very temperamental. However, I can't say that they're especially more temperamental than cats of other colors. Angr (talk • contribs) 11:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Heh....in cat rescue we called that "tortie-tude" I've had several torties and calicos....the've ALL had it to a certain degree.


 * I found that feral calico/tortoiseshell cats are indeed tempermental--if there's any breed suitable as an attack kitty then it's them! Compared to the other strays they are quite wicked, even biting (scratching) the hand that feeds them, and for that reason perversely adorable.  They also seem smarter, at least the one I deal with. [mailto:raylopez99@yahoo.com] Ray Lopez, Athens

My family had a money cat that was especially tempermental. She hated women and would often attack them without provocation, while men could play, pat or rough up her fur without any consequences. She also never looked happy, always displaying her 'bastard kitty' face, even when asleep! Another oddity: she was lefthanded, always leading with that paw. 70.88.213.74 (talk) 20:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The article should contain something about tortoiseshell cats' temperament, either as a scientific fact if there has been any kind of study or as a mention of the widely held view that they are more stubborn/difficult/highly strung. This view is so widely held, including by vets, that it is of cultural note even if it turns out to be baseless (which my own experience of three generations of tortoiseshell-and-white cats deems very unlikely). Salopian (talk) 03:00, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Can anyone tell me what other characteristics are attributed to tortoiseshell cats? I have a tortoiseshell cat (see a pic of her in her prime  ) and she appears to be "getting old before her time" - she seems to have become a bit incontinent and so on, and I am pretty sure she is around 10 years old, which seems young - is there a reduced life expectancy for tortoiseshell cats?  (By the way, I believe other countries would call Gypsy a "calico" cat, I always grew up knowing them as tortoiseshells in the UK).

Email [mailto:mishj@yahoo.com] Michelle Sollicito, now in Marietta, GA Mishj 16:54, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * That image isn't of what's usually called a calico in the U.S., because she doesn't have large patches of white. This and this are "classic" calicos in my opinion. I have no idea how old calicos and tortoiseshells are supposed to get, but my sister has a calico (who used to be mine) who is now 18 and still going strong. Angr (talk) 10:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed two images that were hard to make out. I would suggest editing the captions. DrL 03:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Photos
Please add photos only to the gallery unless illustrating a point in the text. All photos, including gallery images, should be high quality and properly formatted! NightSky 15:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Be sure to include only high resolution photos. If placed in the body of the article, be sure that they illustrate a point, otherwise put in the gallery. DrL 23:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There are just too many photos here. The gallery should be stricken per WP:NOT (WP is not a collection of photos), and article should only have a few photos. I suggest one tortie, one calico, one torbie, and one caliby.  howch e  ng   {chat} 20:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, true, there are too many photos of the same kind of cat. Somehow, I don't think we need six calico cats. By all means, if you can qualify the difference between one breed and another, let's have it, and I don't mean just a slightly different colour pattern among the calicos. I suggest: a calico cat, a tortie, a short-haired tortoise, an orange and black tortoise medium-haired, a blue/dilute tortoise, a long-haired tortoise, a torbi, a tortoiseshell-point Siamese and any other with distinctive breed markings, just to give us a flavour of what the different breeds should look like. Dieter Simon 23:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I like that -- try to have representative images of the different variations of calico/tortoiseshell.  howch e  ng   {chat} 23:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. I recommend editing the gallery. I think that your suggested variations make sense. --DrL 13:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * So, give it until 5 Oct., a month after the discussion started, and see what the consensus is. I will then go ahead with the editing of the gallery. Dieter Simon 23:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There haven't been any more opinions for or against, the opinions we have agree to a good old sort-out and edit of the photos. The way things are at the moment, it is really more of a vanity page for cat lovers, than a proper encyclopaedic article. I shall try to get the best of each of the multiple photo entries for a particular type of cat, and place the others into the talk section. The selection should be governed by distinctive features and best photos, a very difficult task, I agree, but necessary. Dieter Simon 23:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Here are some photos of the different types (from this page as well as Commons). Please feel free to add any others you find.  howch e  ng   {chat} 18:41, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Torties


 * Yes, thanks, Howcheng, will make use of your additions when I edit and sort the gallery. Dieter Simon 21:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Temperament
I removed unsubstantiated comments regarding temperament. Please reintroduce only with appropriate citation. The other bulleted factoids have been worked into the article. DrL 23:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Why photo gallery changed
The reason I re-edited the photo gallery was that there seemed too many photos of certain types of cat, without any reason of differentiation. One calico cat after another, for example, without any distinguishing characteristics, doesn't seem to be a very good reason to have in an encyclopaedia, however much their owners love them and think them and think of them as being lovely. After all, this is part of Wikipedia, one of the greatest encyclopaedias, if not now soon will be! It is not a vanity production. I have put the previous version into the talk page.

If you want to add any further photos, please make sure they are going to be there by reason of really distinguishing characteristics, and not just because you love to see them there. I am sorry about this, but Wikipedia being Wikipedia comes first. It was discussed by three Wikipedians above in the talk page, but for some reason or other did not attract any more pros and cons - which is rather surprising. I gave it a month to see what the final vote would be, but it was only ever the three of us, DrL, howcheng and myself who agreed with a re-edit. Dieter Simon 22:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * By the way, I believe the photo of Flame at Image:Tortie-flame.jpg is technically a tortoiseshell-with-white and not a true tortoiseshell cat, per definition of the word. As soon as white is added to a tortoiseshell cat, it becomes tortoiseshell with white. Out of all of the images present in this article, I think the Image:Tortoiseshell-cat.jpg is the best representative of this colouration. Editors of this article might consider adding a section to the photos for tortoiseshell-with-white and move Flame's photo there.
 * Naisenu 19:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, the picture is a tortoiseshell, even if it is a tortoiseshell-and-white cat, technically. Remember that tortoiseshell, in its most basic meaning, means that the cat has both eumelanistic (black or a derivative) and phoemelanistic (red or a derivative) hair. It does not speak to the relative amount of white. So, technically, all tortoiseshell-only, tortoiseshell-and-white and even calico cats are tortoiseshell cats in the primary sense of the definition. Also, please also take into consideration that tortoiseshell-and white is usually reserved for cats that have a significant amount of white (I would dare say at least one-third). Tortie-flame doesn't seem to have that much white on her. Tortoiseshell-cat is actually a chocolate tortoiseshell cat, a moderately rare color variation (<9%) so isn't obviously more representative.--Ramdrake 20:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Except to quote the line from wikipedia "The description "tortoiseshell" ... is typically reserved for cats with brindled coats that have little or no white markings." Flame definitely has a white bib, chest, and mittens on all four paws. Without being able to see the belly of the cat, this appears to be a Grade 4/5 or Tuxedo piebalding . On TICA's site, section 73 Tortoiseshell Division "The amount of black-based and red-based pigment is randomly determined during embryologic development. An evenly patched cat with good delineation between the colors and a distinct streak of the red-based color on the nose (a blaze) is to be preferred, however failure to conform to this ideal should not be considered a fault in judging. A cat with considerable red-based pigment may show tabby striping in the red-based area." -- My point is that when most people think of a tortoiseshell cat, they generally do not have white on them or at least not large areas of white. --- 70.71.33.8 04:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * That depends. In North America, the preferred term for tortoiseshell cats with a significant amount of white and a patched coat rather than a brindled coat is "calico". I'm told the preferred term in the UK is "tortoiseshell-and-white". However, just looking at the color pattern on this cat's coat, you can clearly see more brindling than patching (the color areas blend rather smoothly into one another). I've always been told that more brindling than patching made it a tortoiseshell rather than a calico (or tortoisesehll-and-white). Not seeing the belly of the cat, this could also be as low as a grade 3 piebald pattern (paws and bib, mostly). I think the definition should be reviewed in the article, as "calico" is usually reserved for cats with a large amount of white and a patched rather than brindled aspect. A cat with a small amount of white (such as tortie-flame) still qualify as tortoiseshell, AFAIK.--Ramdrake 14:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Please stop your vandalism and revert. Or provide proof. As it stands, the proper caption for the photo would be "Tortoiseshell cat, as far as Ramdrake knows".
 * CFA: "TORTOISESHELL: black with patches of red or softly intermingled areas of red on both body and extremities. Presence of several sha des of red acceptable. Nose leather and paw pads: black and/or brick red. Eye color: brilliant gold."
 * ACF (the ACF calls the red-black tortie "black tortie"): "The colours black and red (pale and dark shades) to be evenly distributed over the whole body, including the extremities. The colours must be warm and bright, the patches clear and well defined. A red blaze is desirable."
 * What exactly is is about these and WP:BIAS you don't comprehend? Dysmorodrepanis 23:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * First, this is not vandalism, but a content dispute. Second, your definitions (what site? For which breed(s)?) say nothing about the absence of white. So unfortunately, it doesn't seem to prove anything.--Ramdrake 23:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "say nothing about the absence of white." - if the "colours black and red" are "evenly distributed over the whole body", where then is the white?
 * GCCF: British Shorthair: 21 is tortie, 22 is t+w; definitions are not online.
 * FiFé: Persian tortie group is divided into PER f/g/h/j; however these are defined.
 * Oh, we can continue this, racking up color standards. CFA and ACF - from their websites (obviously), applies to most if not all breeds.
 * Let's collect the information and have a vote on it, or whaever. Or just change the caption (I don't think it's the best or most "typical" picture, but well, whatever). I take back the vandalism allegations. Dysmorodrepanis 00:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I shall not go any further into this matter, having other things to do. I'll leave it to the other folks here; you might want to add a dispute tag because your proposal of last November still stands. I wouldn't support it, but maybe others will see it through. I might drop by in a few days/weeks, but for now, the matter is not important enough for me not to let it rest. OK? Dysmorodrepanis 00:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * slowly applauds* I've been working on bicolor cat and it suddanly occured to me today that other types of colorations might have similar problems with photo galleries; the other day I redesigned the gallery. I come here only to find that you have the exact same idea I did! Good work, i'm flabbergasted at how well that worked. I'm going to be visiting other pages to try and make this style standard across cat-articles. Bravo! Kuronue 15:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Offspring of a Calico
I saw this video of three kittens (one orange tabby and the other two were white and one of the white kittens had a gray tail) at four-weeks-old and their mom was a calico! What is the percentage of calicos having solid color kittens? P.S. I think I made a mistake. I think mom was a tortoiseshell...


 * It depends on the father. For example, with an orange father (who, for the sake of argument carries an orange gene on the X chromosome and a black gene on the Y chromosome):

| O(X)|  B(X)   (mother, 1 orange and 1 black gene) |--|-- O(X)| OO  |  OB |--|-- B(Y)| OB  |  BB

So you have four possibilities in this example: 1 female orange, 1 tortie/calico, 1 male orange, and 1 female black/brown tabby. Throw in other genes like the white (i.e., color-surpressing) gene, the tabby (agouti) gene, the solid (i.e., tabby-surpressing) gene in and you have a large number of possibilities.  howcheng  {chat} 00:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Re: Female orange? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.16.151.77 (talk • contribs).


 * Yes, a female orange cat -- they're uncommon, but they're far more common than Klinefelter male calicos.  howcheng  {chat} 02:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If memory serves correctly, red ("orange") female cats constitute roughly 9% of the female cat population (compared to red males constituting about 30% of the male cat population).--Ramdrake 11:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I heard that they were all sterile so how could they be breeding in the first place? please explain!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.7.247 (talk) 14:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well if you mean they've been spayed, then that would be quite a medical miracle. But under normal circumstances, female torties are perfectly capable of having babies. Male torties (which are extremely rare), on the other hand, are sterile.  howcheng  {chat} 01:50, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Natural Talkers?
I heard here that Torties are natural "talkers". Is this true? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.16.151.77 (talk) 17:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

CoLoRs
calico cats are all diffrent types of colors!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.8.156.3 (talk) 16:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC). My Tabby cat, Sheila recently had a litter of four kittens, 3 of which turned out to be calico. The first and my favorite is Charcoal who is a classic tortoishell color. He has male genitalia, but has no scrotum. The second is Tubbs. He has all his male genitalia. He was originally solid black, but has since developed patches of deep browns and reds in his coat. I wonder is he sterile, or will I need to have him neutered? The third calico is obviuosly female. We named her Bleach, because she looks as though clorox was spillied on her white and gray coat leaving small patches of light brown here and there.The forth kitten is a classic tabby cat just like his mother, except he has very big ears and is very fast, hence his name, Jack Rabbit. I have never had a calico cat before, so I am just learning about them. It is true that they talk all the time. I thought maybe they had gotten this attribute from their father who is solid black w/ white belly, feet, and nose. Bootsie is very talkative, but I think that comes from all the attention he gets from the kids. He is the lone survivor of my first cat ,a black siamese, Miss Kittie, that passed 10 yrs ago. Anyway, I am wondering, is it common to have this many calicos in one litter? I am finding that Tubbs is very unique in having all his male genitalia and appearing to not be sterile. If anyone can give me some insight into this matter, pleases do so. thanks. Brandy Bowman —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.166.98.108 (talk) 12:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The first two aren't calicos at all, but most likely what most breeders refer to as "brown tabby". A male calico is indeed extremely rare (1/1000-3000) and normally sterile.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:58, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Removed Picture
I removed a picture as it had no title under it and I couldn't find one for it otherwise.

Boy Torties and Calicos?
We all know most torties and calicos are girls...but what about boy torties and calicos? Have there been any known boy cats who were torites or calicos? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.16.151.77 (talk • contribs).
 * Yes, they're called Klinefelter males: basically they have three chromosomes: XXY. The double X chromosome makes the tortoiseshell/calico coloring possible, and the Y chromosome makes them male.  howcheng  {chat} 02:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I believe there are also genetic chimeras mosaics which can be male and tortie or calico. In addition, they are also fertile (most of them anyway), unlike cats with Klinefelter syndrome, which are almost always sterile. However, if memory serves correctly, they are one or two orders of magnitude rare (approx 1/100,000) than Klinefelter cats (1/1000 to 1/10,000). There's a very interesting bit on the subject here: --Ramdrake 11:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Money cat
I may very well have got [ this] wrong. I'd never heard of the term, I'm just going by this. If someone could just check it. Thanks, --Abu-Fool Danyal ibn Amir al-Makhiri 19:02, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yet another vanity photo of a calico cat
Please only add photos of types of cats not shown before, this is not a vanity page. In the process of entering this photo the text became corrupted as well. Dieter Simon 23:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

money cat
Ive never heard of a tortie being referred to as a money cat. I clicked the source and i have to say its horrible. some humane society saying it, does not make it so. i think it should be supported by a better source or edited out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Idrankhemlock (talk • contribs) 01:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

edit:
sorry mixed up the sources —Preceding unsigned comment added by Idrankhemlock (talk • contribs) 02:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

"Beautiful"
One of the photos was captioned "Beautiful calico", which is hardly fair or neutral. I've just changed it to "A calico" for the time being. Feel free to replace it with a more descriptive and less vain adjective. Booyah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Barutazaru (talk • contribs) 16:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)