Talk:Tourist Landmark of the Resistance

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Hi, this article in its current form doesn't seem NPOV at all. I will paste the comments I made on the DYK nomination page, and then expand them here as necessary.

The article in its current form cherry-picks quotes and details from the sources to give as bad an impression as possible (detailed examples on request), the article apparently omits parts of those details that would give the "opposing" viewpoint; the article (and indeed the proposed hook) links a one word adjective (jihadi) as used by Nasrallah to an article on a two-word concept (Salafist_jihadism) that arguably may have a different and much more controversial meaning. I am quite happy to work with you (and anyone else) to reach a concensus on a NPOV version of the article. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Cannibaloki already seems to made some steps in making the article more NPOV (as well as cleaning it up in other ways) so I am going to edit the article directly rather than making a list of moving targets here. Obviously, please feel free to discuss my changes if you feel there is a problem with them. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:49, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Some items for inclusion / checking in no particular order:
 * What is the theme park actually called? Do Hezbollah really call it "The Hezbollah Theme Park" ? The sources seem to call it "Mleeta", although that is also the name of the village. One source also calls it a "commemorative war museum and trail". The official website also appears to be called just "Mleeta". Aren't theme parks things that have rides and rollercoasters and such?
 * What is the theme park actually called? Do Hezbollah really call it "The Hezbollah Theme Park" ? The sources seem to call it "Mleeta", although that is also the name of the village. One source also calls it a "commemorative war museum and trail". The official website also appears to be called just "Mleeta". Aren't theme parks things that have rides and rollercoasters and such?
 * What is the theme park actually called? Do Hezbollah really call it "The Hezbollah Theme Park" ? The sources seem to call it "Mleeta", although that is also the name of the village. One source also calls it a "commemorative war museum and trail". The official website also appears to be called just "Mleeta". Aren't theme parks things that have rides and rollercoasters and such?


 * Hassan Nasrallah calls it a "tourist jihadi center". And they are building swimming pools, playgrunds, a cable car... But the truth is that  none of the articles gives it a proper name.  Mleeta is the name of a village, referring to a thing by the name of the town it is in (i.e. calling the government of the United States "Washington", does not make them the same thing.)   And "theme park" is used to refer to facilities like the Holy Land Experience, Dinosaur World (theme parks) and Holy Land USA that have neither rides nor swimming pools.  Just stuff to look at as you walk around outdoors.AMuseo (talk) 11:36, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * We could use Nasrallah's term  "Tourist jihadi center" as a title, but I think Hezbollah theme park is more accurate and descriptive. After all, this, like Dinosaur World (theme parks), is a place that wants to attract families on holiday.AMuseo (talk) 14:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "Hezbollah is frank in describing the theme park as part of the propaganda campaign to depict the organization as the "sole" defender of Lebanon". Hezbollah didn't say this, one of the sources did. Needs to be clarified.
 * Both links for "jihadi" point to Salafist jihadism which talks of a violent struggle "whose number-one target had to be America". This is unreasonable synthesis, because none of the sources mention Salafist Jihadism as far as I can see. Although one might guess that gun-toting Hezbollah militants are referring to Salafist Jihadism when they use the word "Jihad", I think it is misleading to just assume that. (I may have missed specific evidence of that being what they mean - my apologies if so, and please point it out to me.) It should really just point to the "Jihad" article, which explains the many different senses of the word.
 * I'm good with redirecting to Jihad.AMuseo (talk) 11:38, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * If quotes and references are being used from this source then we should consider providing a balanced view by including some of the following statements in that source: "If the Israelis don't attack us, we won't attack them. We are not terrorists, we are very peaceful people and we have the right to live like any other nations." -- attributed to one of the official tour guides.  This: "The last conflict devastated many southern villages and the Shi'ite suburbs of Beirut. It took the lives of more than 1,200 people in Lebanon, mainly civilians, and 158 Israelis, mostly soldiers, in 34 days of fighting that ended on August 14, 2006." and this: "It seems a safe bet that the Israeli air force will flatten this place early in the next war, just as in 2006 it destroyed a museum in the village of Khiam where Israel's old allies in the South Lebanon Army had once run a prison and torture chamber." -- both directly from that source.
 * I have no problem with adding this material.AMuseo (talk) 11:43, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * "a huge map showing map coordinates of potential Hezbollah targets in Israel" -- the second word of this quote is not present, or implied in the reference given. The source's mention of this map is in the context of details provided about Israel's "military machine", and the only one of the targets mentioned is Israel's nuclear energy and nuclear weapons facility at Dimona. For NPOV, this is worth making clear.
 * No objections.
 * Perhaps worth making clear that the Israeli withdrawl in 2000 followed an earlier Israeli invasion, and link both.
 * in that case we would have to link to the causes f the invasion, and to the causes of the causes of the causes, all thw way back to ...what? 1948? the Roman conquest?  Some articles should be kept simple.  With links to the most recent war.  The rest is already up on Wikipedia.
 * If this source is being used, specifically the section about developing the area as a vacation destination, then it seems fair under NPOV, not to miss out the part of that quote mentioning that the stated justification for that is that the people in the area have been "deprived of tourism for decades" -- from the same source.
 * No objections.AMuseo (talk) 11:44, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Although it is in Arabic, it makes sense to have an external link to the official website at http://www.mleeta.com/
 * absolutely
 * If the article is going to cite from this source then the following details from that article should also be included for NPOV; (1) that Abbas Musawi (already mentioned in the article) was assassinated by the Isrealis in the early 1990s;
 * If we add the assassination, we have to add the reasons for the assassination.AMuseo (talk) 11:46, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * (2) the belief of some present at the museum that it symbolises the cultural and artistic contributions of "the resistance" as well as just military resistance? (rather dubious admittedly) (3) ""We want to show the whole world that we are not terrorists and we have rights just like anyone else. We didn't plan to fight, the Israelis came and we had to protect ourselves, our children and our land,” -- attributed to an official (albeit volunteer) museum guide.
 * no objections.AMuseo (talk) 11:46, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I would greatly welcome your thoughts. And, obviously, please do edit in this or other material if possible.
 * --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:50, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm about to make some substantial revisions based on the above discussion, please avoid editing for now --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:15, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Having read this here, and the article ... I removed the cat "Amusement" and the Hezbollah qualifications as per unsourced. btw: is this serious at all? -DePiep (talk) (+timstamp -DePiep (talk) 02:02, 19 August 2010 (UTC))
 * Yes I was serious in asking people not to edit so that I wouldn't get another edit conflict; and yes I got another edit conflict because you did so anyway. And yes, this place really exists, if that's what you meant by "serious".  Oh well.  I've now completed my edit, making most of the above-discussed changes (I abandoned a few of my suggested changes as being basically unnecessary, and a few I might return to later).  I have also removed the not-NPOV template, however anyone may wish to add it back if they feel my changes slant the article too much the other way.  I would like to know if the creator of the article is basically happy with the POV of the article as it now is, and then I will go ahead and update the DYK talk template as originally suggested --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:11, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Amusement park
So where is the word "Amusement park" sourced (except for some commenters, RS, judgement)? -DePiep (talk) 02:18, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * My apologies, after getting two successive edit conflicts, I attempted to reconstruct the article from a combination of my existing prepared text, and your latest changes. I ended up incorporating all your changes *except* that I missed your removal of the category.  I will now change it so that it includes your change. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:28, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The term theme park is used to refer to facilities like the Holy Land Experience, Dinosaur World (theme parks), Dinosaur World (Arkansas), and Holy Land USA that have neither rides nor swimming pools. Just stuff to look at as you walk around outdoors.  These are all collected in Category:Amusement parks.AMuseo (talk) 12:42, 19 August 2010 (UTC) (recovered link to Category -DePiep (talk) 16:31, 19 August 2010 (UTC))
 * re Demiurge1000: I did not experience edit conflicts, I understand your actions. No problem at all, I'd say.
 * re AMuseo: None of your examples is convincing, if a source at all. IMO you sweep together multiple parks without serious commonity. Or do you realy mean "no pool, so Amusement park"? Anyway, it's WP:OR.
 * The article is about a museum, and so we treat it here. I'll remove the Amusement-park category (in accordance with Demiurge1000's post above) -DePiep (talk) 20:28, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Apparently AMuseo reintroduced the category here on 29 August and re-created the category-page Amusement_parks_in_Lebanon. Clearly the talk here did not support that actions. AMuseo was not here to finish talking before editing backwards. I did rm the category, and will some time from now propose rm of the (empty again) category. If that user or behavior repeats, I'll write an ANI. -DePiep (talk) 18:22, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

An image for this page?
The official website for the place that is the subject of this article, has some very impressive and dramatic images and photographs. What do we need to do - from a copyright point of view - to be able to use one of those images on this page? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:30, 6 September 2010 (UTC)