Talk:Trương Tấn Sang

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No consensus to move. The case of reliable English language sources is the strongest. Vegaswikian (talk) 07:39, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Truong Tan Sang → Trương Tấn Sang — The names of other Vietnamese leaders are given with Vietnamese diacritics, but this article cannot be moved because it is on the title blacklist.--Kauffner (talk) 14:57, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. —   AjaxSmack   23:03, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Support Seems straight forward.  Skinsmoke (talk) 11:04, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. None of the 6 English language sources for this article use diacritics.  Neither does Britannica, the US State Department, the Australian Foreign Ministry, or even the Embassy of Vietnam in the United States, amongst others.  Based on this, I believe using diacritics in this title would fly in the face of common usage and convention and thus WP:Diacritics  Also, see Ho Chi Minh, Hoang Van Chi, Vo Nguyen Giap as examples of prominent leaders titled without diacritics.  Respectfully, Erudy (talk) 22:29, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I did find an English language news source that gives Sang's name with diacritics here. The official English-language newspaper, Việt Nam News, has always used diacritics, although I can't link to this since they don't use them in the online version. And of course diacritics are used in Vietnamese. For European languages, the diacritics go in, period, and there is no need to prove English-language usage. See Lübeck, Bronisław Komorowski (Polish president), and Václav Klaus (Czech PM). Since the Vietnamese alphabet is based on that of Portuguese, I note that the PM of Portugal is given as José Sócrates. Numerous other Vietnamese names are given with diacritics, including State President Nguyễn Minh Triết and PM Nguyễn Tấn Dũng. Even if move if is rejected, I hope that a Trương Tấn Sang article can be created as a redirect, since that would certainly be useful when it comes to writing other articles on contemporary Vietnamese politics. Kauffner (talk) 14:15, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Highest-ranking?
Can someone find a reliable source for this? This sounds like original research. DHN (talk) 16:46, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * You think I made it up? It's is in Bao Moi, on the site for Danang City, and in Bao Yen Bai. VOV News not only has the list, but pictures of the entire Politburo. All of these lists show Sang as No. 1, Trọng as No. 8. Kauffner (talk) 19:47, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The two most official sources, Nhan Dan and the CPV website list Trong first. Besides, how does him being listed first mean that he's the highest-ranking official?  Is there a source that says he's the highest ranking official or that the order of the Politburo membership list constitutes pecking order? Meanwhile, sources such as the WSJ explicitly said that Sang's presumptive post as president is "largely ceremonial". DHN (talk) 20:43, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Did you read any of the links that I gave? Yes, Sang is first on the list given in Nhân Dân, which is here (in English) and here (in Vietnamese). I found a similar list on the CPV website (in French). When I googled the list, I found it on dozens of news sources and hundreds of sites. You can not document a fact any better than this. If he is first on the list, of course he is highest ranking. As far as whether the rankings matter in the real world or not, the U.S. Embassy cable claims that Sang "eclipsed" Mạnh even before the congress, i.e. when Sang was No. 2 on the list. He's authority has only grown since then. Analyzing these kinds of lists was what Kremlinology was all about, since they are one of the few public indications of who is in charge in a communist system. As for the article in the Wall Street Journal, it just said that the position of state president is ceremonial, which of course it is. Kauffner (talk) 05:05, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Sounds like original research to me. I don't dispute your analysis, but unless a reliable source explicitly says so, I don't think Wikipedia should state it as fact. You'd be lucky to find a source that mentions Sang by name, let alone say that he is the top dog - all the analyses I've read so far talk about the balance of power between Dung and Trong with nary a word about Sang. DHN (talk) 05:25, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 * So the problem now is just the phrase "highest ranking"? Here is an article that describes Sang as "the party's second ranking official" prior to the congress, so I am not only one who understands the list as a ranking of leaders. Reuters describes him as "Vietnam's senior Politburo member Truong Tan Sang," so I have put in that phrasing. In the old Soviet Union and in China today, these lists are made up by Kreminologists who examine seating order and the order that names appear in news articles. So it is very convenient that the Vietnamese government publishes an official list.Kauffner (talk) 06:22, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * DHN is totally right here, the list of Politburo was provided without any specific order, so you cannot tell who ranks "higher" than who. Vietnam does not follow the Chinese system while the days of Soviet Union have long gone, so please don't deduce by yourself how the Vietnamese system works, Kauffner. Grenouille vert (talk) 01:57, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you think you could look at the list before spinning out accusations? The VNA version is here. Notice that each name has an ordinal to the left of it. That is to say, the names are explicitly ranked. They've been doing these ranked lists for a long time. Before there were official lists, analysts would deduce ranking from the seating at the May Day parade and whatnot. But rankings have always been more important than titles. Kauffner (talk) 15:31, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation?
How do you pronounce "Trương Tấn Sang" ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.86.189 (talk) 18:47, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * According to the VOA, you pronounce it as "TOO-UHNG TAHN SAHNG" DHN (talk) 23:58, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Portrait-photo-picture
Is someone working on a photo for the Article? A picture always adds a lot. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 23:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Here is a photo of two Communists, not the best for his WP article: "Vietnam's President Truong Tan Sang (R) poses for a photo with his Laotian counter-part Choummaly Sayasone in front of a statue of late Vietnamese revolutionary leader Ho Chi Minh at the Presidential Palace in Hanoi August 8, 2011. Sayasone is in Vietnam for an official visit from August 8 to 10. This is his first visit abroad after being re-elected as President for a second term in June. REUTERS/Kham"
 * http://news.yahoo.com/photos/vietnams-president-sang-poses-photo-laotian-counterpart-sayasone-photo-102124284.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charles Edwin Shipp (talk • contribs) 12:51, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Another recent picture: "Getty Images, 2 months ago, Truong Tan Sang (L), permanent member of the secretariat of the Vietnamese Communist Party's Central Committee is greeted by Japanese Foreign Minister Takeaki Matsumoto for their talks at the Iikura guesthouse in Tokyo on June 1, 2011. The senior member of the Vietnamese Communist Party is now here on a four-day visit to Japan." Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 00:05, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * http://billionaires.forbes.com/photo/01pO4zwaYH4Pd (photo of the two)
 * http://billionaires.forbes.com/photo/04HMaVc9hr2eX (photo of just Truong Tan Sang)

West never understand the mechanics of true leaders of the communist parties in the Vietnam, China, Laos, because they lack information. In Vietnam, ranked first General Secretary, President, prime minister, chairman of the parliamentary, standing member of secretariat is key leaders. They put what does not matter, according to the rules of the party. Regulation of party clearly define the rights of five key leaders, the West did not getTuantintuc17 (talk) 08:15, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Vo Nguyen Giap which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 11:30, 12 May 2014 (UTC)