Talk:Transcendence: My Spiritual Experiences with Pramukh Swamiji

Writer Sreedevi S Kartha banned at book release resulting in launch being cancelled
Writer Sreedevi S Kartha is an author who translated this book into Malayalum but was banned due to being a women during the launch because it conflicts with the swami beliefs.

She stated "“The hidden dangers in the issue shocked me more than the personal insult as a writer. What is the difference between Taliban, which asked women not to show other body parts except eyes, and Indian culture, which bars women from attending public functions.”"

Her facebook post states that "When the Swamiji is seated on stage, the first three rows of seats must be reserved for his male disciples to ensure that even the impure shadow of a woman does not fall on the Swamiji."

Does this need to be included in the article and if so can anyone help me write it?

http://www.evartha.in/english/2015/09/26/writer-sreedevi-s-kartha-abstained-from-book-release-function-book-launch-cancelled-amid-protests.html

http://www.sify.com/news/scared-of-pollution-swamiji-keeps-woman-translator-away-from-stage-news-national-pj0qEfjihfidh.html44

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/row-derails-release-of-translated-version-of-kalam-s-book/138157.html

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/kerala/Ban-on-Translator-Derails-Book-Launch/2015/09/27/article3049283.ece

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/kerala/Ban-on-Translator-Derails-Book-Launch/2015/09/27/article3049283.ece

http://www.therakyatpost.com/world/2015/09/26/impure-shadow-of-a-woman-spiritual-leaders-followers-allegedly-insult-kerala-writer/

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/thiruvananthapuram/Woman-writer-asked-to-abstain-from-book-release-function-to-be-held-at-Thrissur/articleshow/49107658.cms?

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/international/india/seers-snub-to-woman-writer-of-apj-book-sparks-uproar

http://english.manoramaonline.com/news/just-in/kalam-book-release-in-thrissur-postponed-after-protest.html

Swamiblue (talk) 17:58, 26 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I looked through the sources posted above. It seems that the translator did not get an invitation to the book launch event, and was personally offended and tried to take revenge by protesting. Her posts on her facebook page that serve as a basis for all of the news reports which claim that she was prohibited from the launch at the request of the Swamis are refuted by the publishers' quotes in the very same articles posted above which state: "KJ Johny publishing manager of Current Books, Thrissur, said that they do not usually invite the persons who translated the book for the book release function. 'We have no idea about such rules of the ashram. No such message was conveyed to Sreedevi,' he said over phone from Thrissur."


 * So it appears to be simply a dispute over who gets invited to speak at an event, and there is no encyclopedic value to including this information about a speaker's dispute at a launch event on one city in an article about the book itself.
 * Sacredsea (talk) 15:27, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree with you that it may not be much value here. So then where do you think it belongs User talk:Sacredsea? Swamiblue (talk) 22:24, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I read some new updates and there were protests and demonstrations against the organization? Does that make it notable? There are documented issues with the group and women's rights. Swamiblue (talk) 22:46, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If there were protests and demonstrations about the book release, that would probably be notable enough to include here. Do you have sources for that? Kaldari (talk) 23:33, 28 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello Kaldari, I have provided some sources above but here are most that explictly show the photographs of the protests. How do I go about the best possible way of incorporating this into the article?Swamiblue (talk) 00:20, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/protests-erupt-after-kerala-woman-writer-barred-sharing-stage-hindu-seer-book-launch-34649

http://www.siasat.com/news/woman-writer-barred-sharing-dais-seer-842810/

http://www.madhyamam.com/en/node/36487

http://www.evartha.in/english/2015/09/26/writer-sreedevi-s-kartha-abstained-from-book-release-function-book-launch-cancelled-amid-protests.html

http://topyaps.com/protests-kalam-book

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/503065/woman-writer-barred-sharing-dais.html


 * The sources shared indicate that the book release was for the book - 'Kalaateetam' - a Malyalam translation of the book Transcendence, and the book release for Transcendence occurred in June by APJ Abdul Kalam (that is what the photo in the News Minute site indicates). So, a documenting a speaker's dispute at the launch of the book 'Kalaateetam' in the page that is supposed to describe Transcendence, seems WP:UNDUE to me.Sacredsea (talk) 21:14, 29 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Nothing will be added to the article until more discussion takes place. I think the severity and notability of the protests makes it worth it but I may be wrong so I have not added anything. Let's see. There are more reports coming about the lower position of women in this group so this may be an issue about the organization rather then the book. Swamiblue (talk) 23:17, 29 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Currently there are three users total including myself, Kaldari, and User:Binksternet at stating that this incident should be incorporated into the article and one that disagrees. So at this point we have a decent consensus that this needs to be noted. What should be the best way about including this in the article? What section or should there be a separate section? The protests are notable even though it would still be if there weren't and I have provided a dozen news articles.  Swamiblue (talk) 17:06, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The protests are still related to this book, regardless of whether it is a translation. We do need to be careful though not to give it WP:UNDUE weight. My suggestion would be to add a couple sentences to the end of the Publication section (which already mentions the Malayalam translation). One sentence stating that the translator claims she was barred from the book release and one sentence about the ensuing protests. Does that sound reasonable to everyone? Kaldari (talk) 17:26, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 * So much newspaper coverage means that this dispute must be included in the article. I suggest a paragraph in the body and a sentence in the lead section. Binksternet (talk) 17:36, 30 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Will do this weekend but will try earlier. Please keep an eye out User:Kaldari and User:Binksternet. I will post my edit using my Sandbox and I'll provide a link to for my sandbox and ask for discussion. All I can say at this point is be prepared. If you have time would you please take a look at . It would be really helpful to get a fresh perspective on the discussion occuring. Swamiblue (talk) 17:43, 30 September 2015 (UTC)


 * If the rationale to include this launch is the coverage it has received, I think it would make sense to point out the extensive coverage of every other launch. I’m thinking that if the coverage for this specific launch merits inclusion in the article, we should also include a couple of sentences from the launch in every city so that the article retains balance. It seems WP:UNDUE to only include coverage from this specific launch and ignore the launches in every other city. Further, how many other book pages on Wikipedia have included information about specific launches? Actionjackson09 (talk) 02:34, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Below are book launches in 6 other cities; if we had coverage of any one single book launch, then the coverage from all of these would merit inclusion.
 * http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/dr-apj-abdul-kalam-book-launch-kenya - Nairobi
 * http://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2015/08/20/baps-launches-kalams-book-transcendence-in-the-us/ - Bethesda, Maryland
 * http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/ahmedabad/hinduism-has-solutions-to-all-problems-amit-shah/ - Ahmedabad
 * http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/apj-abdul-kalam-book/article7471401.ece - Chennai
 * http://news.valleyindiatimes.com/2015/09/a3.html - Phoenix
 * http://www.indiawest.com/news/global_indian/baps-mandir-honors-a-p-j-abdul-kalam-s-legacy/article_72c20310-4da6-11e5-a706-63e237f7c42b.html - Chino Hills
 * Actionjackson09 (talk) 13:54, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * After reviewing the sources referenced above and this talk page discussion, I agree with User:Sacredsea, User:Swamiblue, and User:Actionjackson09 that there is no encyclopedic value to including in this article a description of a simple dispute over who was invited to attend one of many book launch events around the world. In my opinion, detailing this dispute or the subsequent protests would thus afford Undue Weight to this subject.  However, I am also concerned that including this material would pose WP:BLP concerns as it pertains to the individual who allegedly provoked the dispute.  First, the disparities in the various sources referenced above suggest that they lack sufficient reliability to be cited here.  For example, whereas some of the sources state that the launch event in Thrissur, Kerala was cancelled, others report that the event did take place amidst protests (e.g., http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/impure-shadow-of-a-woman-seer-s-followers-snub-kerala-writer/story-EUwdvRFvdqKFO0BDTdfzsO.html and http://www.therakyatpost.com/world/2015/09/26/impure-shadow-of-a-woman-spiritual-leaders-followers-allegedly-insult-kerala-writer/).  Second, the sources reveal a significant uncertainty in the allegations themselves.  The conflict has reportedly centered on allegations that a BAPS sadhu, identified in the sources as Brahmviharidasji, asked that the translator not be present on stage at the launch event.  However, the launch event organizer is also quoted as stating that no such demand was ever issued, either from Sadhu Brahmviharidasji, BAPS, or the organizers of the event.  Further, these sources all rely solely on a Facebook post by the translator as a basis for the allegations.  Under WP:BLP, contentious material about a living person that is poorly sourced or which relies on sources that otherwise fail to meet Verifiability standards must not be included in an article.  Here, as the veracity of the allegations regarding Sadhu Brahmviharidasji that gave rise to the protests appears to be dubious, this content is akin to tabloid-esque gossip.  Including this content in a Wikipedia article would inappropriately circumvent the high standards required under WP:BLP.  -HinduPundit (talk) 02:45, 6 October 2015 (UTC)