Talk:Transitional Federal Government of Somalia

Split from Transitional Federal Parliament (TFP)
This has been bugging me since December 2006, but I finally made the big push to split the executive branch (TFG) from the legislative branch (TFP). Please help differentiate the two, and make sure to update links as appropriate. --Petercorless 15:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Lineup of Somali Cabinet of Ministers out-of-date
Folks, the lineup of the Cabinet of Ministers is out-of-date for certain. News reports widely state that Hussein Aidid is no longer Interior Minister, but all so far have failed to name his replacement. The page for the Interior Minister at the TFG's official site is broken, as are many other links. I have taken the step to actually write to the TFG Prime Minister to ask that the new list be posted on the TFG site, so we can quote it and thus, it would not be "original research." I'll let you know if I get a response. Meanwhile, know that I am keeping my eye peeled for any information about the latest cabinet lineup. --Petercorless 07:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Finding more citations. Slowly, but surely. --Petercorless 09:57, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Separate list of former ministers?
Do you think we might want to keep "historical lists" of cabinet members, such as the cabinet first approved in 2004, the cabinet after the dismissals of 2006, and the reshuffling of 2007. We should probably put such on a different link "Former ministers of the Somali government" or some such, which could even go back to Siad Barre days and early days of independence. --Petercorless 07:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

How?
I came to this article to find out by whom and how this government was created and what the government's legitimacy is from the people's perspective. Lord Metroid 00:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Improvement
I just want to say thanks to all who helped me improve this article. As you can see, I've greatly added to this article to make it more informative. I just wanted to thank all who helped and added more material into my edits.

Reenem (talk)

Recent Developments
I came across this page while doing some research and noticed that it is competely out of date. The TFG has lost control over almost all parts of the country and most members of the Parliament and the Cabinet have fled from Somalia after Baidoa fell to the al-Shabaab. Is anyone of the former editors able to bring the page up to date? 84.178.123.80 (talk) 22:00, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The TFG's partition of power with the various regional governments is already mentioned in the article. The TFG also relocated from Baidoa years ago, not recently. It is now based in Mogadishu. This too is indicated in the history section, as is the government's struggle with religious insurgents. Middayexpress (talk) 23:10, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Strength
TFG has no powerr in the capital Mogadishu let alone the country. I think the Goverment should recognize Somaliland so the International Community lets face it Somalia is Dead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.184.180 (talk) 06:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

copyvio
just removed a copyvio of ca 4 sentences (see article). Althought the source is quoted (www.unhcr.org/refworld/publisher,USCIRF,,,4a4f272bc,0.html), it is not indicated tht quotation was used; and it goes beyond "selective quotation". I have no time to make a better version now but have decided to precautiously remove it (there is a copyright sign at the bottom of the site, so UN things are not automatically public domain. Feel free to re-add a non copyvio-text conveying the same meeaning! L.tak (talk) 08:13, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Possible fair use image of Somalian technical image
The file is used on this page and 3 others, but it might not constitute fair use for all 4 pages (furthermore, specific fair use rationales are missing). Feel free to comment at File_talk:D8m9caf00.jpg. L.tak (talk) 14:35, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Embassies
I went to the ministry's page and did a manual count of how many embassies the TFG currently has and came up with 34. It was definitely more than the 19 that was indicated in the article. This looked like the best place to find it but let me know if this isn't the best place for this information. Dreambeaver (talk) 19:12, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

TFG Homepage
I followed the link to the "official page of the Somali government" mentioned here - and got to a blog with articles like "stunning cars in films". I think the link ist wrong or the page does not longer exist.

217.24.63.245 (talk) 13:30, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I noticed that as well. I think that there must be no official website as of now. Any Google searches I've done have brought me nothing. I'm going to remove the link until we can find something else. Dreambeaver (talk) 00:39, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Problem edit
Per this, "internationally recognized" is POV and vague (every state and entity did not do so, as opposed to "UN-recognised interim" which is factual an d as per the name it is interim. The current lead is a mishmash of paras, which had been consolidated before being related. It also cites "undue in lede" for cuorruption, which was a n important aspect/criticism of it. It also removed "the TFG's tenure officially ended" which was sourced to a RS. "parliamentary vote-based presidential election" is not the COMMONNAME, its is a indirect election. Capitalisation of titles is restored but it is NOT a proper noun by itself, only when used as a title for a person, otherwise its just a generic name for the role. As was hthe ref, which now has inconsistencies in which ref format as used. This seems to indicate a blind revert of additions and against AGF.Lihaas (talk) 08:12, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, "UN-recognized" understates the degree of the TFG's recognition, which was international, not just limited to the U.N. (c.f. ). Also see indirect election for what that term actually means. It doesn't apply here because at no point did the public elect the MPs tasked with choosing the president; those MPs were instead nominated by the NCA. Middayexpress (talk) 18:20, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Abdillahi Yusuf: "War Hero"
This seems to be a subjective appellation and is unsourced. Several obituaries in respected international new outlets omit this description, for example:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/abdullahi-yusuf-ahmed-warlord-who-as-president-failed-to-restore-order-to-somalia-7604011.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/24/world/africa/abdullahi-yusuf-ahmed-ex-strongman-of-somalia-dies-at-77.html?_r=0 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3732020.stm http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/africa/120324/somalia-ex-president-abdullahi-yusuf-ahmed-dies-exile http://www.voanews.com/content/former-somali-president-yusuf-dies-at-77-143969976/179407.html

Although none reject his service as a "career officer" or credentials as a rebel leader against the Barre regime, he is more commonly referred to as a divisive figure and a warlord. The term "hero" is not widely used, except by his supporters, and therefore raises NPOV concerns. HOA Monitor (talk) 01:27, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, that Yusuf was a war hero is not subjective; he was twice decorated for bravery in combat . On the other hand, what is subjective and inconsistent with WP:LABEL is that he was a warlord. What he actually was for a time was a faction leader, like Ahmed Mohamed Mohamoud. Domestic obituaries and his state funeral note this:

http://www.africareview.com/News/Former+Somali+President+is+dead/-/979180/1372082/-/go5ttrz/-/ http://www.garoweonline.com/artman2/publish/Somalia_27/Somalia_Former_President_Abdullahi_Yusuf_to_be_buried_in_Puntland_printer.shtml http://puntlandi.com/former-somali-president-and-founder-of-puntland-abdulahi-yusuf-ahmed-dies-in-dubai/ http://www.garoweonline.com/artman2/publish/Somalia_27/Somalia_Col_Abdullahi_Yusuf_laid_to_rest_printer.shtml

Middayexpress (talk) 16:06, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


 * There is no question that Yusuf was a divisive figure and that his background as a faction leader contributed to the widespread -- though not universal -- perception of him as a strongman and warlord. These characterisations are an important part of understanding his political persona and his inability to unite the country.HOA Monitor (talk) 03:55, 27 December 2013 (UTC)


 * That is your opinion. "Rebel leader" is the more common and neutral term for Ahmed's time as an opposition chief; Ahmed Mohamed Mohamoud as well. Subjective labels such as "warlord" are also discouraged per WP:LABEL. Middayexpress (talk) 14:25, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I have inserted a reference to his time as a rebel and reverted to the term 'faction leader' concerning his role in the civil war, which is your own term (see above). The sources I have re-inserted make it clear that he was a divisive figure, or at least perceived as such.HOA Monitor (talk) 22:15, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Ironically, your edits raise WP:NPOV issues. It is a fact that he was decorated twice for bravery as a war hero. Whether it is "widely used" or not is irrelevant, check WP:WEASEL. To the point of divisive, that is WP:LABEL, also check the previous policy. 26oo (talk) 03:06, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Those are still subjective opinions/value judgements. A "leader of the Somali Salvation Democratic Front", on the other hand, is not. Middayexpress (talk) 03:29, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Overview
The phrasing of the sentence stating that the TFG battled Al Shabaab "to assume full control of the southern part of the country," is misleading. Although that may have been the TFG's intention, the fact is that the TFG "battled Al Shabaab insurgents for control of the southern part of the country", and failed in its attempts to do so. At no time since 2007 has the TFG, or its successor, the SFG< succeeded in assuming "full control" of the southern part of the country, or anything close to it. The new wording is intended to reflect historical fact. HOA Monitor (talk) 01:47, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That's inaccurate as well. Per the former UN Special Envoy to Somalia, Augustine Mahiga, the Somali government actually controlled around 85% of the territory in November 2012 . Middayexpress (talk) 16:06, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a sole source selectively chosen to support your own argument. I can and will provide multiple sources indicating otherwise.HOA Monitor (talk) 14:19, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, that's the UN's former chief representative in Somalia. He ought to know just how much territory the government actually controlled. Official sources for figures also take precedence over unofficial sources. Middayexpress (talk) 14:36, 25 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Mahiga's statement was demonstrably incorrect, as his own office's report of August 2012 demonstrates (http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=S/2012/643). As a report to the UNSC, this is a more 'official' source than a simple press statement by the SRSG. UNSEMG and UNOCHA reports on humanitarian access from this period also contradict Mahiga's claim. Here are a few maps from 2012 and 2013 from various independent sources to refresh your memory. Official sources, including UNOCHA humanitarian access reports and the UN SEMG support these claims and are easily retrievable.


 * http://somalianewsroom.com/2013/01/25/mohamuds-u-s-visit-foreshadows-federalism-debate/
 * http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-16979440
 * http://www.hug-h.com/2013/09/donating-aid-money-to-somalia-is-like.html


 * If you insist on disagreeing, then I suggest you find additional, credible documentation indicating exactly how much of Somalia the TFG controlled at the time. HOA Monitor (talk) 16:19, 25 December 2013 (UTC)


 * None of those territorial control maps are official. The BBC one has actually remained unchanged since at least early last year. Another is from one Hugh Hunt's blog. A third link includes a political map from Wikipedia no less. As for the UNSC link, it predates the Special Representative's assertion by several months i.e. while territorial offensives were still happening. What's official fact is that the Somali authorities now control most of the previously insurgent held areas, though there are some rural areas that are slated to be liberated. This was noted in the October Security Council resolution to extend AMISOM's mandate by a year, during which the last pockets of Al-Shabaab control are expected to be liberated by the allied forces ("the Council had noted the achievements of AMISOM to liberate Somalia from the scourge of Al-Shabaab, as well as the assistance and training that had enabled his Government to liberate the residual components of that group") . Middayexpress (talk) 17:35, 25 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Midday, selective use of sources does not change the facts on the ground. The Somali authorities still do not control most of the "previously insurgent held areas", and controlled even less in late 2012. The UNSC report you cite gives no indication of territorial control: it is simply diplomatic recognition of AMISOM's efforts. As you know, areas still controlled by Al-Shabaab include much of Lower Jubba, most of Middle Juba, most of rural Bay and Bakool, large rural areas of central Somalia (i.e. western Hiiraan region, parts of Middle Shabelle) as well as the towns of Buulo Burti and Ceel Buur. I'll re-edit this section adding additional sources to provide an accurate picture of the situation on the ground at the time.HOA Monitor (talk) 21:58, 28 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid there's nothing selective about that Security Council resolution (the wikipedia mirror, blog and old maps, on the other hand...). It's quite clear that there are only residual components of Al-Shabaab left in the rural parts of the south. And that's now, not in late 2012. At the time, the TFG had made less territorial gains, yet it still controlled a significant majority of the territory per the UN Special Representative. Middayexpress (talk) 03:29, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Recognition
I have placed the para in its historical context and associated international recognition with the current SFG, rather than the defunct TFG, which I believe solves the problem. I have also removed a reference to the UN arms embargo preventing the establishment of security forces, since the embargo included a simple waiver procedure for Somali security sector institutions, meaning that they were in fact eligible for assistance. I would concur that among the main challenges for the TFG at this time were lack of resources and international indifference.HOA Monitor (talk) 13:43, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I have again revised this section, following Midday's reversion, because the emphasis on 'internationally recognised" is irrelevant in this context, notably because the TFG was 'recognised' as a provisional authority, and although it assumed Somalia's seats in IGAD, the AU and UN, the SFG has received a much more significant degree of recognition, including formal recognition by the US government and accession to a variety of treaties. The TFG was the second significant attempt to restore government to Somalia, since it followed the establishment of the Transitional National Government (TNG), and cannot be qualified as the 'most recent" since that description applies to the current SFG.HOA Monitor (talk) 21:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Asserting that the TFG was the second significant attempt to restore national institutions to Somalia is still a value judgement. However, that the TFG was the second interim administration after the TNG aiming to restore national institutions is not. Middayexpress (talk) 16:47, 28 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The Federal Republic of Somalia came into existence only as of last year and is the successor to the transitional government which was indeed interim, hence the name transitional. 'Internationally recognized' is important given the months that the Islamic Courts Union held Mogadishu, the TFG was still recognized by the international organizations as the legitimate government of Somalia with its seat in Mogadishu. 26oo (talk) 03:21, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

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