Talk:Trilantic Capital Partners

Improving the depth and quality of the article
Hi all,

I hope you’re well. Firstly, I’d like to introduce myself. I work as a digital consultant and I represent Trilantic Capital Partners. We've reviewed the Wikipedia page and after some analysis we believe we've found several ways to improve the depth and quality of the information. I've listed the proposed improvements below – please review our suggestions and let me know your thoughts. I’ll wait for your feedback.

Many thanks,

Kat

Trilantic description (introduction)
Naturally, Trilantic’s business has evolved over time and we believe that the current firm description is inaccurate. Please see below for a new one that describes exactly what Trilantic does. We’ve based the information on Trilantic’s own definition and two articles in the Financial Times :

Trilantic Capital Partners (Trilantic) is an independent, transatlantic private equity firm seeking to make investments in fundamentally sound and growing companies in North America and Europe with the aim of achieving superior (risk-adjusted) returns.

Trilantic has a particular focus on risk management, distinctive investment strategies and takes an active role in creating value post an acquisition. The firm uses flexible transaction structures and has historically partnered with family-owned businesses as well as providing growth capital to outstanding management teams.

The firm was formerly known as Lehman Brothers Merchant Banking (LBMB), the buyout arm of Lehman Brothers.

In 2009, Trilantic was formed by its five founding partners as part of the bankruptcy of Lehman, the LBMB business was sold to its partners and a minority interest was acquired by Reinet Investments, a listed investment trust controlled by the Rupert family and chaired by South African businessman Johann Rupert.


 * No objections received. Done Kt1502 (talk) 12:00, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Group’s most notable investments, as part of the introduction
In addition to the following notable investments mentioned in the introduction already: Blount, Inc. (NYSE: BLT), Antero Resources Corporation, Microstar Logistics, Flagstone Reinsurance(NYSE: FSR) and SRAM Corporation there are also some other notable investments that should be included:
 * Gamenet
 * Istanbul Doors
 * LeYa 
 * MW Brands
 * Patentes Talgo S.A.


 * I don't think there really needs to be that many investments listed. Five at the most would be appropriate, really. Feel free to pick the five though, as I don't have an opinion on which are more important to include. Silver  seren C 04:20, 28 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for your comment Silver. The reason there are so many is because there are some included from the US and some from the UK. In order to have the page factually correct, I believe we should provide examples of both, instead of removing some of the US portfolio. Let me know your thoughts, just as an FYI. Trilantic has just exited Istanbul Doors Group, do you think I could replace it with Euskaltel? It's been covered by the Financial Times and the AltAssets . In the light of this I'll also proceed to remove the Istanbul Doors Group from the Group's current investments to keep the page up to date. Kt1502 (talk) 12:55, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Silver, would you consider adding the following key European investments? I think this should be added separately as European investments, but will leave this with you.:
 * Gamenet
 * MW Brands
 * Talgo
 * Mediclinic International

Box out: Group’s Headquarters
Trilantic also has an established headquarter in London, United Kingdom. Here is more info


 * Done Kt1502 (talk) 08:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Box out: Key People
There are additional key people that are notable as well and should be included in the article, as mentioned in the Private Equity International :
 * Charles Ayres, Chairman of Trilantic Executive Committee (already there)
 * Vittorio Pignatti-Morano, Founding Partner and Chairman of Trilantic Europe
 * Javier Banon, Founding Partner of Trilantic Capital Europe
 * Joe Cohen, Founding Partner of Trilantic Capital Europe


 * Done Kt1502 (talk) 08:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Section: Partners
Please refer to Bloomberg’s Company Overview of Trilantic Capital Management LLC for the latest information on the key executives for Trilantic.

We propose to split this section and include Trilantic North America and Trilantic Europe

Trilantic North America
 * Charles Ayres, Partner, Chairman of the Executive Committee of Trilantic Capital Partners Executive LLC << Could you please update his position, as mentioned in the Bloomberg’s article above?
 * Daniel James, Partner, Head of Trilantic North America and member of the Executive Committee
 * Christopher Manning, Partner and member of the Executive Committee
 * Jon Mattson, Partner
 * Charles Moore, Partner

Trilantic Europe
 * Vittorio Pignatti-Morano, Partner and Chairman of Trilantic Europe
 * Javier Bañon, Partner and member of the Executive Committee
 * Joseph Cohen, Partner and member of the Executive Committee
 * Michaël Madar, Partner
 * Giacinto D’Onofrio, Partner


 * Done Kt1502 (talk) 08:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Section: Current Investment - Marex
There is a mistake in the Financial Services sub-section that requires a quick edit. Marex is the incorrect name of the company, it is  Marex Spectron. Please remember to update the cross-reference link. Marex Spectron also employs c. 500 people now


 * Done Kt1502 (talk) 08:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Current Investment: Other - Istanbul Doors Restaurant Group
Istanbul Doors Restaurant Group is an operator of seven high-end restaurants and a chain of mid-market casual dining restaurants (“Kitchenette”) in Turkey and a growing presence in Russia, Azebaijan and the UK, following the acquisition of Tom Aikens Group. Could you update this?


 * Done Kt1502 (talk) 08:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Trilantic formation
Trilantic was formed in 2009 by the former principals of Lehman Brothers Merchant Banking, where they created a strong track record of investing in and building successful growth businesses.
 * Done Kt1502 (talk) 20:59, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not current news
An edit of this type reflects the wrong philosophy for article writing. Wikipedia seeks to cover the topic, not the current situation. While "WP:Notability" doesn't apply to article sections, its idea of "enduring notability" is useful - namely, if a company's investment in Istanbul Doors was notable, then it will always be notable. Therefore, the section on "current investments" should be merely "investments", or at least partnered with a section on "past investments", which should contain this content. See also WP:Recentism. (The actual policy is WP:NOTNEWS, but I'm afraid that vaguely written policy is so often misinterpreted that it leads people astray more often than not)

I should add that covering prior investments should be especially useful for encyclopedic purposes, because I assume it is possible to find out exactly how much they bought their stake in the company for and how much they sold it for, whether the company grew or contracted during that period, etc. Wnt (talk) 16:34, 6 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Wnt, this is a valid point. I agree, I must have misinterpreted the policy. For encyclopaedic purposes, I agree there should be a section on “past investments”. Not sure what to do now in the light of the recent edit by user Smartse who has removed the current investment section. Do you agree with this step?Kt1502 (talk) 19:24, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Additional Improvements - European investments information
Hi all,

It’s Kat again. I’ve made some amends to the article but feel like there is still a way to improve it. Below I’ve drafted additional updates to the article I believe would make the article look balanced, providing more information on the European side of the business. For now it's still looking too US centric.

Let me know your thoughts

Best,

Kat

History / Founding and early history – important EU fund is missing
The table that lists key funds needs to be updated to include an important Fund IV Europe – 2007 – 574n Euro – more information in the Invest IQ article from December 2012
 * The online publication Invest IX states the following: "...Fund IV Global (USD 1.9 bln) and Fund IV Europe (EUR 574 mln)...." In the light of this, will have to correct the name of the fund and the value on the page asap. Currently the the Fund IV Global is incorrectly noted on the page as $2.6 billion. Thank you Kt1502 (talk) 12:50, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

At the time of Lehman’s bankruptcy – information on the European side of business
The section on Lehman Brothers bankruptcy and LBMB spin out is missing some information on the European side of the business. It should say: “…At the time of Lehman’s bacrupcy, the group was headed by Charles Ayres who joined Lehman in 2003, Vittorio Pignata at Lehman Brothers was Vice President and head of European Private Equity...."
 * Apologies, due to auto-correction Vittorio Pignatti's name got misspelled. Also, according to the article in the Financial News he was a Vice Chairman, not Vice President. My mistake, must have rushed it. Will correct it right away. Kt1502 (talk) 12:11, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Better method for Investments section
I can understand why Smartse removed the section. I think a much better method for an Investments section would be for it to be all in text organized in paragraphs, rather than in tables. This way you would be able to organize it chronologically, discussing the entire investment history of the company. The reason why Smartse removed the section is that it had such long descriptions of the investment groups themselves, which is unnecessary. Just put in text that they were an investment for Trilantic and when and what the investment was regarding. Some word juggling to make sure the section isn't boring will probably be necessary, but I think this would be a much better way to set up an Investments section. Silver seren C 04:59, 12 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Should we even include the investments at all? Unless they are discussed in high-quality sources like the FT and NYT I'm not sure we should be including them. From my perspective, the listing of every investment makes the article an advert for the fund. If it's only been discussed in poor quality sources or press releases we shouldn't include it. SmartSE (talk) 14:36, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Except i'm sure there's plenty that have been discussed in sources like FT. And, like you said, if they're covered in high-quality sources, then we do have a reason to include them. Since this is an investment company, including a history of its investments seems appropriate and would be a part of the history regardless. Silver  seren C 22:26, 13 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I use the following rule of thumb: if there is a list of products, investments, customers, departments, etc. that exceeds 10, we do not want to mention them individually. Instead, we want a summary, followed by the most notable examples. I would like to see an investments section which discusses the overall strategy and type of investments they make, followed by a few examples of their largest or most notable investments. This is the equivalent of an "Items and Services" section for most companies. CorporateM (Talk) 17:33, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Lead reverted
I have reverted back to an old version of the lead. As someone bought up on Jimmy's talk page, the new one was not neutral. When I looked into it some more, the FT articles that were referenced did not support any of the text either. Even with a good reference, I struggle to see how "seeking to make investments in fundamentally sound and growing companies in North America and Europe with the aim of achieving superior (risk-adjusted) returns" can belong anywhere on Wikipedia. SmartSE (talk) 14:39, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi there, it's Kat again. Thank you for your explanation SmartSE (talk), I've pulled together a new lead paragraph for Trilantic that is neutral in sentiment - please see below. It reflects what Trilantic does and is backed up by two good quality sources - the InvestmentEurope and RealDeals. Please let me know your thoughts. Best,Kat

Trilantic Capital Partners (Trilantic) is an independent, transatlantic private equity firm focused on making investments in North America and Europe. Trilantic has a particular interest in growth companies with international aspirations, and takes an active role in creating value post acquisition through enhancing financial reporting, strategic planning and risk management practices. Trilantic has historically partnered with industrials and family-owned businesses as well as providing growth capital to outstanding management teams. Kt1502 (talk) 14:58, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Atlasowa (talk • contribs)


 * Sorry for taking a while to get back to you - have been very busy IRL. Those sources look good, but can you add inline citations to show where the information is coming from? There are also still a fair superfluous words in there. Something like this would be better:

Trilantic Capital Partners (Trilantic) is a n independent, transatlantic private equity firm focused on making investments in North America and Europe. Trilantic has a particular interest invests in growth companies with international aspirations looking to expand into international markets, and takes an active role in creating creates value post acquisition through enhancing financial reporting, strategic planning and risk management practices. Trilantic has historically partnered with industrials and family-owned businesses as well as providing growth capital to outstanding management teams.


 * I also can't access the realdeals.eu.com source - is there any chance you could email me a copy? Cheers SmartSE (talk) 19:11, 19 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for your suggestions. I agree with all your edits! Did you get my email with the realdeals.eu.com article? I've added the suggestions citations below

Trilantic Capital Partners (Trilantic) is private equity firm making investments in North America and Europe. Trilantic invests in growth companies looking to expand into enhancing into international markets, and creates value post creates value post acquisition through enhancing financial reporting, strategic planning and risk management practices.InvestmentEurope Trilantic has historically partnered with industrials and family-owned businesses as well as providing growth capital to outstanding management teams.realdeals.eu.com

Please let me know your thoughts Kt1502 (talk) 15:54, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Comments
By User:Smartse's suggestion, User:Kt1502 asked me to chime in here. A majority of contributions by new editors are reverted and the ratio of rejected edits by new editors with a COI is even higher. It takes time for new editors to make valuable contributions to Wikipedia and even more experience is required to do so well with a COI.

Unless you are prepared to make a huge time commitment to learning Wikipedia's rules and writing style, like WP:LEAD in this case, I don't think the approach of offering content for consideration will be a good use of your time or ours. OTOH, if you plan to be the Wikipedia expert for an entire PR firm, you should start making this time investment by gaining experience editing other articles and seeking a mentor.

By offering a re-write with a COI and without much experience on Wikipedia, both parties will become frustrated. PRs feel that because they disclose and use Talk, we should "help" them. From the perspective of our volunteers, we have a value-based relationship with PRs. Meaning PRs are not a stakeholder for us and we do not provide extensive customer service, but if a PR rep has something of value to our readers, we do want that (just like journalists)

To the issue at hand, I am not willing to consider proposed COI re-writes of material that is already neutral and the content looks fine how it is, better than the proposed actually. However, if there are factual errors, please point them out. I will provide a high degree of customer service in that regard. User: Atlasowa is on the right track. An explanation of what is inaccurate is needed if we are to consider corrections. Proposed content need not be perfect and it is not inappropriate for it to create a burden on us to make some improvements, but the proposed content should be of value for us to earn our time working on it. CorporateM (Talk) 17:23, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Investments section
Hi Kt. Some of the staff-written blurbs from RealDeals are not high-profile enough of a source to validate the significance of the deal in the firm's history. Reuters and the Financial Times are both adequate but both are included already. I can't access the RealDeals Q&A. As a Q&A it's considered a primary source, but may still be usable in some cases. I'll add a thing or two from here though. CorporateM (Talk) 13:00, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi M. Thanks for updating the paragraph. I've noticed a few errors though:
 * 1. TCP exited its investment in Istanbul Doors in 2012 after buying it several years before. Info here: http://www.altassets.net/private-equity-news/by-news-type/deal-news/lehman-spin-out-trilantic-sells-istanbul-doors-group.html


 * 2. On the typical exit from each acquisition within three-to-five years - you've mentioned it twice. I wasn't sure whether I could go in and fix this. Think the first mention is correct, the second one could be expanded to say “Trilantic doesn’t participate in auctions and often makes investments in family-owned private businesses”. This broadens the point and provides greater context and information. Istanbul Doors is an example of this. The most recent article in the Private Equity International backs up the information. Here's a quote from the article as it's behind a paywall (http://www.privateequityinternational.com/ArticleSearch.aspx?search=Trilantic):

"On the Record: Trilantic's Vittorio Pignatti-Morano

''Trilantic Partners Europe is the former European mid-market buyout arm of defunct bank Lehman Brothers. The team – many of whom have worked together for 15 years – seek out complex off-market deals, and have been actively targeting southern Europe in recent years.'' Chairman Vittorio Pignatti-Morano explains why

posted - 01 Oct 2013 16:05 GMT

James Taylor

Where do you see the biggest opportunity at the moment?

''Europe has so many opportunities in the mid-market. We try to focus on places where the opportunities are best priced, where we see the fewest competitors, and where the preference is for solutions rather than auctions.'' ''There’s an enormous opportunity in deploying capital where the capital markets are the least efficient. So in certain countries where you can count the number of IPOs on one hand, there’s clearly a lot more need for permanent capital. It’s also true that in Europe, family ownership is much more common in Europe than it is in the US and the UK, which presents a continuous generational problem – and that’s an excellent source of dealflow, if you’re in the right place at the right time and you’re prepared to be flexible."''

Thanks Kt1502 (talk) 11:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I fixed the redundancy and the error. With the last paragraph, I'm not sure where that's from or what the suggested edit is. CorporateM (Talk) 12:18, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks M - it's from Private Equity International, published earlier this week (1 Oct) and demonstrates that Trilantic sees the biggest opportunity in investments in family-owned private businesses. First article when you click on the link above). Think this would work:


 * ... After a purchase is made, a team works with each portfolio company on financial reporting, planning, management incentives and risk management practices. Trilantic typically looks for an exit from each acquisition within three-to-five years. In 2012 Trilantic acquired Spanish telecoms company, Euskaltel. In the same year it also exited a European restaurant group Istanbul Doors. Trilantic doesn’t participate in auctions and often makes investments in family-owned private businesses. ...Kt1502 (talk) 13:54, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * This? Is it possible to send me the complete text? CorporateM (Talk) 14:38, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, thought a direct link wouldn't help much.. check your inbox. Thanks Kt1502 (talk) 15:35, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * It's a Q&A, which we generally consider to be a primary source. The introduction represents the voice of the journalist and says there has been a recent focus on southern Europe, but we already have our bases covered there. CorporateM (Talk) 17:18, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi CorporateM I was wondering - did you want me to update the list of Most Notable Investments as mentioned in the section above? I was discussing this with other editors some time ago and they said it would work (Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Trilantic_Capital_Partners#Better_method_for_Investments_section). Please let me know. Many thanks, Kt1502 (talk) 12:14, 12 November 2013 (UTC)