Talk:Turkvision Song Contest 2014

Participating Countries
Altai Republic and Tatarstan have confirmed their participation in the contest, but I cannot find any evidence to say that Iraq is withdrawing, or for Azerbaijan, Belarus, Turkey and Ukraine confirming they will be in the contest Moldova96 (talk) 14:11, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Tatarstan don't confirmed paricipate. It is a host, but no one source not say it confirmating. ← Alejandro de Grande talk 06:44, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Host Arena!
Hello guys. I found this link, where written a host arena of Türkvizyon 2014. And this is Tatneft Arena. Is it true? I don't know: "Уже известно, что полуфинал и финал «Тюрквидения» состоится на «Татнефть-Арена». // It is already known that the semifinals and finals of "Türkvizyon" will take place at "Tatneft-Arena"." Hey Wes, can you help with it? ← Alejandro de Grande talk 06:05, 19 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not familiar with the Russian language, and therefore cannot determine whether the source is reliable or not. Are there any other published sources that make reference to the host arena?  If so, then we are able to determine the reliability and credibility of the aforementioned source.  However, I have looked at the official website for the "Tatneft-Arena", and they have an Ice Hockey match taking place on both of the same dates as the semifinal and final of Turkvision - so I cannot see how the song contest would be able to take place in an arena that is already booked for another competition.  For now I'm more inclined to wait further information before adding details on the host arena, to prevent us from adding false/incorrect information.   Wes   Mouse  14:20, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Azerbaijani Entry?
Did they ever announce the entry on the 14th? I don't see any confirmation on the Turkvizyon website. The announcement date must have been a rumour. :/ --PootisHeavy (talk) 17:27, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Kazakh song
I don't know how to translate Kazakh song "Ізін көрем" (Izin korem). Almost always, I was able to find the translation of all these songs. For Kazakh language I used «Big Kazakh-Russian ­— Russian-Kazakh Dictionary» by Kaldybai Bektaev. I know that "Ізін" translated as "Step", but I don't know what means "көрем". No one sources do not provides translation. ← Alex Great talkrus? 07:21, 27 October 2014 (UTC)


 * You could always ask someone at the translation team to help.   Wes Mouse &#124;  chat  13:42, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I've found this website, which has the phrase "Мен сені жақсы көрем." and a list of translations, it could mean "love"? --  axg //  ✉  ]] ''' 23:14, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No, I sure. In dictionary word "жақсы" translated as "love". ← Alex Great talkrus? 14:31, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Wes Mouse thanks, but this project have'nt Kazakh users. ← Alex Great talkrus? 14:31, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "Мен сені жақсы" is "I love you". ← Alex Great talkrus? 14:32, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Worth asking them all the same, as one of the users may have some knowledge of Kazakh. We will never know unless we ask them.    Wes Mouse &#124;  chat  15:43, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I've found one free online translation service that deals with Kazakh; the result was "Tracking Korem". I'm assuming Korem is a person's name?    Wes Mouse &#124;  chat  15:52, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and asked the two users who were listed on the Kazakh Wikipedia embassy page. --  axg //  ✉  ]] ''' 17:49, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No, Wes, It's not a name. Namy must be written with uppercase "Көрем". ← Alex Great talkrus? 19:08, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks,. Our colleagues at Kazakh Wikipedia have responded. the song translation is "I will see his/her/its trace". I think in this case we're best using the neutral gender - its; rather than guessing on whether to use "his or her" - thus avoiding edit warring over gender context.  Wes Mouse &#124; T@lk 17:54, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks Wes and AxG. It is a pleasure to work with you. ← Alex Great talkrus? 16:56, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Turkmenistan cheating?
When I watched the contest, I take screenshots for data collection. And I noticed that, contrary to the rules, Turkmenistan received the extra 5 points from itself and thus took place in the final, when should not have been. What do you think about this? Maybe is necessary to write to the organizers? ← Alex Great talkrus? 22:16, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It is written about this at Eurovoix. The guys there discovered this mistake/cheating. Bosnia-Hercegovina also received 3 points more in the total than the summed up total would be ending Bosnia at a 13. position together with 2 other nations, and Turkmenistan in 15. position. --TorbjørnS (talk) 03:49, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah thanks. I already read this post. I'm glad, that In final will be participate in total 15 regions instead 12. 06:02, 21 November 2014 (UTC)


 * You're a bit behind on this one, as it has already been included within the article prose by myself the second it was reported/published on the internet.  Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 16:02, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Song writers and music writers
I like to have the names of the people who wrote the songs in the Norwegian article. I couldn't pick it up from the Internet broadcast, and I cannot find them online. Does anyone know about an official list where I can find this names? --TorbjørnS (talk) 03:49, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I have screenshots of all participants. If you want I can provide it to you in screenshots or text. ← Alex Great talkrus? 06:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I mean this screensots. All I can write it like this: "Music by Begench Hojayev, Lyrics by Dovlet Annamyradov" (Zuleyha entry, at this example). ← Alex Great talkrus? 06:10, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * and - Screenshots cannot be used as sources, purely because you would have to upload the image somewhere other than here on Wikipedia, in order to be able to cite it - and thus you would ultimately breach WP:SELFCITE.   Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 16:00, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes please, I would like those screenshots... and, you can use the broadcast as a reference, not the screenshots. The composer is the composer wheter you take the info from a screenshot or a website. TorbjørnS (talk) 17:11, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Or you can provide me in text... up to you and what would be most easy for you. TorbjørnS (talk) 17:13, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately screenshots cannot be used as sources, even if you did cite the broadcaster as a reference. I checked the archives at WP:RS/N and it was in there about screenshots being classified as original research, which is not permitted on Wikipedia - regardless of whether you cited the broadcaster or not. But I did check on the Turkvizyon website and they have composer/lyricists mentioned on some of the participant profiles, but not all of them, if that helps.   Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 17:18, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok I check the site. Last time I checked both turkvision.info and turkvizyon.tv I couldn't find this info. I just wanna say that probably 1/3 of the info in this articles are based on what the writer picked up from the semi final broadcast. A lot of info was not providede, and the articles were updated according to broadcast. The original broadcast is a primary source, and the best source. Info in Eurovoix are also based on the broadcast. I don't agree with you about using info from a broadcast in articles. It's like watching Eurovision Song Contest, and say you cannot put in any information before some website put it in first. TorbjørnS (talk) 17:27, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

, per WP:PSTS, we suppose to use primary sources with care, and it is preferred that secondary or tertiary sources be used. Only a primary source may be used as a last resort if there is nothing else available from secondary/tertiary sources. If we took a screenshot, it would have to be uploaded on an image storing website, in order for us to be able to provide a URL address - this in turn means we are self-citing our own work; regardless of it being a screenshot of the live television broadcast. We cannot link to the image URL and cite it as coming from the broadcaster, as that is false citation, and that is sometimes seen as citing fraud. An editor was warned and ultimately indef blocked for citation vandalism, as they fraudulently changed URL addresses in order to make it look like a real source was being used. OK I know we would not be doing the same, but we would be trying to imply that the screenshot image which we had uploaded, was obtained from the broadcaster directly, and thus we'd be misrepresenting citations.  Wes Mouse &#124; T@lk 17:35, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Where can I watch the broadcast online? Maidan TV suddenly just started sending music videos instead of the broadcast. TorbjørnS (talk) 17:37, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I watched the semi-final last night via myvideo.az and clicked on TMB logo. You can watch live TV or "catch-up" from days gone by.   Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 17:41, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * , there is a way around the citation of composers/lyricists - it has only just come to me now. I used cite podcast for citing the presenters of the show, and used a timeframe link from myvideo.az - which is perfectly fine to do, as the timeframed url link would direct people straight to the point you seen it - bit like a screenshot in a way, but a "live recorded video" of the exact point you seen the information.  Will be a big task doing this for each entry, but worthwhile if it means avoiding all the rule-breaking of original research etc.   Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 17:47, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I rather not care to provide that information. I've been working a lot with this site, and I'm the only one in Norwegian WP who works with it. I don't wanna spend rest of 2014 editing the article. But thanks :) TorbjørnS (talk) 17:52, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm with you on that, actually. I had attempted to do "podcast" links for the results, so that we could add a scoreboard for the semi-finals. But having to stop/start for each set of results just became a right pain in the backside by the time I got to the 9th entry.   Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 17:58, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

, are you still need writers and composers, or Wes already overpersuaded you? If you still wait, I send it to your User Page at uno momento. ← Alex Great talkrus? 20:36, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * it has already been established that the use of screenshots as a source is not allowed, sorry! I wouldn't try and persuade TorbjørnS into using such screenshots as a citation and they get blocked for violating rules.   Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 20:40, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Only if he can use it in English Wikipedia. What if in Norwegian Wikipedia another rules. So, I send it to him Userpage just for comparison, let it be. I do not use these data. ← Alex Great talkrus? 20:45, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Think you'll find when it comes to citations, all Wikipedia's regardless of language, have the same rules. I strongly urge that you do not attempt to wander the editor into blocking territory - not exactly fair of you, if he did get blocked just because you say he should use them.  Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 20:48, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Alex, yeah I would like them. Thank you. You can send by email or something if you want to.TorbjørnS (talk) 20:48, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * As I thought it would - English Wiki and Norwegian Wiki have the same rules.  Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 20:51, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I would be cautious in using them. If you get blocked from Norwegian Wikipedia for breaking their rules, then you only have yourself to blame.  And  you are not exactly being fair here.  If TorbjørnS does get blocked as a result, then you will have played a part in doing that.  Do the right thing and avoid this situation immediately.   Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 20:54, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * For Gods sake... TorbjørnS (talk) 20:57, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * all the song titles are on iTunes, along with composer and lyricist info. Easy what one can find when doing a google search.   Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 21:00, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Wes, calm down! I'm nowhere encourage him to. I just ... give info on his talk page ... which he requested at this. Oh yeah, about the tables. ← Alex Great talkrus? 21:08, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I am calm, I just hate seeing people getting blocked (some indefinitely blocked) through doing something that they could have easily avoided if they just took a little more time to research before trying to run before they can walk. That was my only concern here, I didn't want to see either of you having your accounts blocked whether it be on English or Norwegian WIki's, just because a policy/guideline was not followed correctly.  As for tables, they look good.  Which sources have you used?  And how come the flag of Moscow City has been used, when it was discovered the flag of Moscow Oblast was the correct one?  Bit strange to have a city compete in a "country" contest.  We wouldn't expect to find London compete in Eurovision as an "self-declared country".  Logic!   Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 21:17, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 1. Sources: TMB TV (at current moment). 2. Moscow City because all times Artem said about Moscow City, Official Website said about Moscow and Eurovoix said about Moscow (Oblast or City, its unknown). Its like Shoria instead Kemerovo Oblast, and Kirkuk Turkemens instead Iraq. 3. Em.. Look at User talk of TorbjørnS. JUST LOOK, NOT USE. It's interesting. TorbjørnS please don't use it too (if that said rules). ← Alex Great talkrus? 21:40, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * please do not patronise my level of intelligence by telling me to "JUST LOOK, NOT USE". I do know about the rules, so I'm not exactly going to put myself into a blocking sanction - I am not that stupid.  Please could you retract the term, thank you.  Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 21:56, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

and - I knew there were some tools around this Wikipedia haystack to help find "difficult sources". There is the Google Test, Google, and also how to mine a source (the last one basically gives tips on how to find that "unfindable" source but much easier. Maybe these will help to find composers.   Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 21:32, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I fully agree that controversial information needs trustful sources and sitations. I don't regard providing information about song writers so controversial that anyone deserves to be blocked because of that. It is public info available for everyone who did watch, and everyone who will watch the show. The only thing that makes it difficult, is that the ones making the show do not publish this info at their website. I am also 99% sure that if someone finds it controversial, I will be asked to remove the information before anyone would even consider to block me from Norwegian WP. If it's so strict, this article is also full of information provided from the broadcast. Name of songs that was not published was updated as the broadcast was being done. I would think translations of song names could me more controversial than providing true inro about song writeres. Translations based on what someone who knows the language say is the right translation... but no sources, no certainity that it is fully right. I need that info anyway - If I use it or not I don't know, and maybe the info will be published somewhere. TorbjørnS (talk) 21:38, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I've decided to better word my reply to, as I felt I had missed some valid point which were raised. However, for those who may wonder what I had originally wrote, may check the history.  Indeed, controversial information should be cited using trusted sources - that's how content disputes become avoidable in the first place.  However, what may be uncontroversial to one person, may be completely the opposite to another.  Lately blocking sanctions have become heavy-handed, and issued without due care or discussion - which I appreciate the need for someone to be immediately blocked if blatant violations occur, especially if someone has been advised not to do something, and they do it anyway - those type of users deserve to be punished accordingly.
 * The names of songs that got published were sourced from Eurovoix.com, a website that cites where it got their information from - and WikiProject Eurovision is in favour of sources who do that. That is why we treat Oikotimes with severe caution, because anyone can create a user profile on there and then publish a news article and claim it to be "true".  We only ever use Oikotimes if they too cite where they found their information - otherwise they don't get used.
 * As for thinking translations of song names would be more controversial, sadly, is proven to be discredited. WP:TRANSCRIPTION states that "Faithfully translating sourced material into English, or transcribing spoken words from audio or video sources, is not considered original research." So translation is allowed; and we did have to seek translation of the Kazakh song from the Kazakh Wikipedia embassy page, which again is permissible for Wikipedia standards.  After all, most if not all Wikipedia languages have some sort of translation team to fulfil this role.
 * But in regards to the use of screenshots, I did provide a link that shown such action could not and should not be done for a variety of policy-based reasons - for example original research, self-citing ones own image uploads, and there is a manual of style guide WP:HOTLINK that states Inline linking of images for display on Wikipedia is disabled for several reasons: copyright and vandalism being the main reasons. Personally, I'd try and avoid trouble and stay well clear of using any image as a citation.   Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 02:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I've just check on a similar case with a user who was linking to YouTube as citations; and raised the question with - who pointed me towards WP:LINKVIO and WP:ELNEVER - and looking further down the page of the latter link is WP:ELNO which also provides a useful piece of information.  I'm not sure if Moonriddengirl will bob over to this discussion, as I've pinged her in this very comment.  But if she does, then her insight would be truly appreciated.   Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 02:19, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * This is a long conversation and I have limited time at the moment, so please excuse me that I have not read it all. I am simply responding to the bit that mentions my name. With respect to videos on YouTube, these can be linked as citations when the video is hosted by an official channel or with clear licensing. Otherwise, they can't be linked, but the video can still be cited, from a copyright standpoint. There is no copyvio in saying that information came from a certain video if you are not linking to an unlawfully hosted version of said video in your citation. :) --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:09, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm finnished discussing this. I would appreciate if you are too... TorbjørnS (talk) 05:50, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * and, we have now resolved this issue and I can confirm that it would be safe to use the screenshots as citations. This is what's been said by an expert on the citation and copyright topic.  "The information doesn't have to be available on the internet to be cited. If User 1 can cite the broadcast itself (as he must have watched it to capture screenshots), there should be no issues in him doing so. If I were User 2, I would not cite the screenshots under my own authority but might put in edit summary that User 1 verifies the accuracy according to the broadcast. If there's any issues, people will know to go to User 1.".  I interpreted that as meaning "Anyone can use the screenshots as long as they cite the author as being Alex Great, and also note in the cite web parameters of the broadcasting channel in which Alex watched the show and had obtained these screenshots.  But, Alex Great on the other-hand cannot add the citations himself as this is what breaks the WP:SELFCITE rule."
 * So I sought further clarification and found that was not the case. Further clarification was as follows "User 1 saw the broadcast, right? If he cites the broadcast, he is verifying the content. His screenshot doesn't matter; he would not link to it. He'd just cite the broadcast. But I did not see the broadcast. If I cite the broadcast, I would use the same citation - to the broadcast - but in edit summary I would note, "I didn't see this, but User:1 did and asserts this is correct." User 1 is not self-citing, as he is referring to the broadcast, and not to his own screenshot. His screenshot is basically like if you were reading a book and took notes from it. The book is the source; your notes are just helping you remember and accurately capture the source. You would cite the source, and not upload or link your notes.".  Which in this case, user 1 is referring to Alex.  He obtained screenshots and also watched the contest.  So we are permitted to use the screenshot as rough notes, add the names of the composers.  We would not use cite web, and link to the web address that Alex has uploaded these screenshots to, we would use Cite AV media notes - cite the episode, the channel for which Alex watched the contest, the date and time of the broadcast, and include that Alex was the person who viewed the contest - so if anyone had queries they could then contact Alex so that he can then inform them of the screenshots for verification purposes.  We are also allowed to do this for the results too.  I'm amazed with this finding, as it means even I have learnt something new.   Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 16:03, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow, very interesting. This means that I (as the author of screenshots) can not use my screenshots as a source, but other users can do it if the author indicate as me, all right? ← Alex Great talkrus? 07:45, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * In a roundabout way, yes. But which broadcaster did you watch the contest on and obtain those screenshots?  Because that information would be needed when we use Cite AV media notes (click on the template link to view all the parameters that we would be filling).  Provide as much information as possible then we can mention every last bit of detail in that citation template.  You wouldn't be the "author" as such, just the point of reference if anyone were to question if it can be verified.  The fact that you watched the show, and obtained screenshots is what helps.  But we cannot upload those screenshots onto Wikipedia alone, as that would then be copyright (from what I gather).   Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 08:31, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * , just remember though that we don't use a composer/lyricist column on these annual contest pages, so the screenshots are pointless for English Wikipedia at this present time. And I wouldn't advise adding such columns either, see the active debate via the project talk page.  So TorbjørnS would need to find out if the Norwegian Wikipedia have any similar templates.  Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 08:38, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, look:
 * All right? I don't understand only location parameter: I can provide my location or location of website server? My location is Vladivostok. ← Alex Great talkrus? 09:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * All right? I don't understand only location parameter: I can provide my location or location of website server? My location is Vladivostok. ← Alex Great talkrus? 09:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * All right? I don't understand only location parameter: I can provide my location or location of website server? My location is Vladivostok. ← Alex Great talkrus? 09:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

It means location of the contest, that's the way I've interpreted the template description.  Wes Mouse &#124; T@lk 17:16, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

"Countries" in the Infobox
I've noticed that in the Infobox, it says things like "withdrawing countries", "returning countries", "debuting countries", etc. I understand that this is the same Infobox that the ESC articles use, but they clearly don't apply to Turkvizyon because not all participants are in fact countries. Places such as Moscow, Bashkortostan, and Gagauzia are all simply regions of countries. So wouldn't the fact that the Infobox uses the term "countries" mean that we're stating false information? I propose a new pretty much identical Infobox for Turkvizyon be created that changes all usage of the term "countries" to "countries and regions". { [ ( jjj    1238 ) ] }   15:07, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I am designing one just for Turkvizyon, but it will take some time to get it spot on perfect.  Wes Mouse  &#124; T@lk 17:29, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Interval act
Is the interval act right? I was looking at the final at youtube, and I could see the composer of the Turkish song, Sinan Akçıl, performing a number before the votes came up. My experience with this is that info about the contest is changing all the time, so, maybe the info about this could be wrong too. TorbjørnS (talk) 19:08, 26 November 2014 (UTC)