Talk:Tweener (tennis)

Requested move 6 June 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. —Darkwind (talk) 05:22, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

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Gran Willy → Tweener (tennis) – per common name in English. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 10:22, 12 June 2015 (UTC) Wolbo (talk) 23:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

• I agree. -Testpored (talk) 23:12, 6 June 2015 (UTC) On second thought, perhaps it's better to keep it Gran Willy because "tweener" can also mean the easier forward-facing shot (as now noted in the article). GW is the original and more specific term. Testpored (talk) 23:05, 8 June 2015 (UTC) Update: I now agree with the move, per my comments below -Testpored (talk) 15:44, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
• This is a tough one. No doubt "tweener" is by far the most common name (today) for the shot played with back to the net. But it is also used for the shot between the legs facing the net. So it is not specific. Tweener is also a very common term in basketball (and football) for players who don't fit in a traditional playing position. So for tennis, historically we have a tweener meaning any shot hit between the legs, and Gran Willy (invented by Vilas) as the specific name for a shot hit between the legs with one's back towards the net. Here is Andy Roddick executing a "tweener" in 2008. In doing some searching Gran Willy was used mostly during the 70's in English sources and then the term became obscure. It is still used today in many Spanish sources. Google searching doesn't really find the term "tweener" in English to mean a shot hit between the legs till 2009 or so. And here's another bigger problem. Tweener (tennis) by commonname should not mean the tennis shot at all. By commonname "tweener (tennis)" should mean an intermediate racket size and weight. From the 1980s till this very day it is BY FAR the most common tennis definition of "tweener." So we would actually have to take it further for this one and name it Tweener (tennis shot). The tennis store in my neighborhood has rackets hanging in sections on the wall with one section labeled "Tweeners." So while I would be tempted to go with the name change over Gran Willy even though it's a bit of recentism, the fact it's actually secondary to the tennis racket classification leans me to not supporting the move. Gran Willy is better than Tweener (tennis shot). Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:47, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

That's a lot of good info about the various uses of "tweener". Perhaps the Tweener disambiguation page should have its own Tennis section explaining these items. Right now it only defines it as a Gran Willy and links here. -Testpored (talk) 13:09, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

• Move to Tweener (tennis shot). Undoubtedly the most common name in reliable sources, to the extent that most tennis would be confused by what a "Gran Willy" actually is. Jenks24 (talk) 15:23, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

  I could agree with this but at tennis project we always use (tennis) for everything tennis unless (tennis) is already in use with an identical term. We would also need to create a Tweener (tennis) article for the type of tennis racket. Actually, why do we have this exact tennis article in the first place? We don't have tennis articles for "Overhead" shots or "Down the line" shots. I'd suggest an article on types of tennis shots would suffice but we do have articles on half-volleys and backhands, etc. It's a tough call. So we have Tweener tennis racket, the most common usage, with no article and only a mention under Racket (sports equipment). We have Tweener the "back facing the net shot", less common usage (except on youtube). We have Tweener the "forward facing between the legs shot", less common still but used in many sources. And we have Gran Willy, the absolute proper term for the "back facing the net shot" with essentially nonexistent usage in today's English (but used in Spanish). In my opinion the lead should always begin with "Gran Willy" since this is an encyclopedia and it is both the proper term and the 1970's common name. But there is no doubt that since Roger Federer's 2009 US Open shot (so 6 years) the press has called it a tweener. It is now the common term and probably will be for the foreseeable future. So @Wolbo:, do we make an exception and move it to (tennis shot) in this rare case? Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:24, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

  I think we should use the current common name because that is what readers are most likely to be searching for. They could very well be looking for "tweener" on Google, see this article called "Gran Willy" and just go right past it. For an example of how common it is, a search of The Guardian (seems to cover articles for the last five years or so) gives 0 results for "Gran Willy" and 55 for "tweener", of which at least 40 are about the tennis shot. None of the articles that were using "tweener" in a tennis context were referring to the racquet size so I'd prefer simply Tweener (tennis), but if you are adamant it's ambiguous then Tweener (tennis shot) is also fine. Jenks24 (talk) 13:55, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

  Actually, I just googled "tweener", and the first hit was the Tweener disambiguation page and in the snippet actually showed me the new Tennis subsection entries Fyunck added 2 days ago. I also searched "tweener tennis". Both searches yielded roughly equal number of links for the shot and the racket. So I conclude that the current arrangement is fine as-is because "tweener" in a tennis context does need to be disambiguated first and foremost. And for the reasons cited above, it's (slightly) better to keep this page "Gran Willy". -Testpored (talk) 14:27, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

The distinction between 'Tweener' as a shot and as a racket makes this a bit more complicated than first thought but I don't see a valid case for keeping the article at Gran Willy. If, as has been pointed out, the term has virtually not been used in English sources since the 1970s, then it simply fails the common name criteria and should not be used for an article today. Note also that the article does not have a single English language reference to 'Gran Willy'. It should of course be mentioned in the article that the shot was originally called 'Gran Willy' but, as Jenks24 mentions, it will likely not be recognized by our readers as an article title.--Wolbo (talk) 23:35, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

@Wolbo:I agree with the fact that Gran Willy is not the common name for the shot. But then we have a problem. That shot is not the common usage for the term Tweener... the racket definition is used more frequently. And even as a tennis shot it has two definitions since it covers all between the legs shots. So should we make it Tweener (tennis shot)? And I would have more than just a mention of Grand Willy being the original name. It should be in the lead as such. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:11, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

The last party is easy, the first sentence would become "Tweener, originally known as a Gran Willy...". I'm not sure if the racket is the more common usage compared to the shot, it may depend on someone's perspective (location). I have the same experience as testpored when googling 'tweener tennis'; it's roughly equal. Google images is highly skewed towards the shot and if you search for tweener on tennis.com you see both but the first search result page is dominated by the shot. But even if we take a neutral 50/50 view on the usage we indeed still have to disamb between them. One possibility is to create a 'Tweener (tennis)' disamb page with 'Tweener (shot)' leading to this page and 'Tweener (racket)' leading to Racket (sports equipment)#Tennis. Another option is to rename this page to 'Tweener (tennis shot)'. Doesn't fit so nicely with the naming scheme of other tennis shots but it is clear and specific. A complicating factor is that we do not have, and probably will not have, a specific article for 'Tweener (racket)', in fact we do not even have a specific page for tennis rackets (long overdue).--Wolbo (talk) 01:01, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Good points, Wolbo. The fact that "GW" only really appears in Spanish anymore is a good reason to change it to Tweener (tennis shot). Plus, until now I just assumed this page should only be about the backwards shot, but it's probably best to cover both tweeners with special mention of "GW" for the backwards one. It won't take much to reform it this way. (As for the racket sense of tweener, it's probably okay as-is with Fyunk's additions but if you want a new "tennis racket" page that's a good idea too.) -Testpored (talk) 02:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Well then, if it looks like we will never have an actual article on tweener rackets (only mentioned in an article on rackets) then perhaps it is best that we simply use "Tweener (tennis)" to make it coincide with other articles. If in the future we ever do decide to make an article on the racket type (not likely) we can decide then whether to make it tweener (tennis racket) or change the shot. So I'm in support with Wolbo's original idea of tweener (tennis) being the tennis shot. It should probably say "a shot hit between the legs, and usually meant as a shot hit with back towards the net when returning a lob" or something to that order. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm fine with that approach.--Wolbo (talk) 09:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Just to be clear for the closing admin, I'm also fine with Tweener (tennis). Jenks24 (talk) 21:27, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

As an addition I've been keeping my eye out on ESPN for every instance of Tweener. Today's news for instance talks extensively about Federer's "tweener" lob against Sam Querrey. It not being called a "forward tweener", simply a tweener. And Fognini is also on the site hitting what ESPN is calling a "backwards tweener" i.e. a Gran Willy,backwards. The more I'm looking the more I'm seeing a tweener is any shot hit between the legs, forwards or backwards. There's the forward tweener that Roger hit today, and the backward tweener (Gran Willy) that Fognini hit, but they are all tweeners.

Yes, I agree that seems to be how the usage has evolved. It would make more sense to me to just expand the scope of this article to cover both forwards and backwards tweeners. Having two separate articles would surely be overkill. Jenks24 (talk) 15:35, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Also remember that these things don't need formal closures. It looks like everyone agrees that the move to Tweener (tennis) is the way to go so I say we just do it. An involved editor can close this if we all agree. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:02, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

• Move to Tweener (tennis shot). A cursory look on Google Books and Google News seems to show that "Gran Willy" is quite obscure in English (though it's common in Spanish). The shot seems to be most commonly called "Tweener" in English; this Historical Dictionary of Tennis lists the entry for it under "Tweener" and doesn't even mention "Gran Willy". Normally I'd say "Gran Willy" could be natural disambiguation, but in this case it looks like the term is too obscure in English to serve as a good natural dab.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:17, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

  But since Tweener (tennis) is available, we really have no need to further fine tune it to (tennis shot). Tennis Project uses (tennis) for everything unless there is a duplicate. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:40, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

I could go either way. One the one hand, looking around suggests the racket is usually called a "tweener racket" rather than just "tweener". On the other, disambiguated titles need to be WP:PRECISE enough to distinguish the subject from others, and "Tweener (tennis)" could conceivably refer to the racket.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:41, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Tweener versions

I don't think this is all that clear. "Tweener" is sometimes used for any shot between the legs, but usually it's backwards-facing shots. The Historical Dictionary of Tennis actually defines it that way. Unfortunately we don't have any clear sources giving a more precise definition for the "Gran Willy", and it appears the term is very rarely used in English. I think it's enough to say the shot is typically backward-facing and done to recover a lob, but that forward-facing "front tweeners" also exist.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:26, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

And as I explained during the requested move, the term "tweener" is used interchangeably between a forwarding facing between-the-legs shot, and a backwards between-the-legs shot. Announcers throw out "tweener" for both types. If there is a reason that the backwards tweener definition is used more often it's only because recently the backwards shot is hit more often than the forward facing version. I'm trying to make that clear so no reader is confused, but it keeps getting reverted and/or generalized. ESPN has Fognini's "backwards tweener" right there in the headline. Federer just hit a tweener lob against Querrey at Wimbledon and the announcer simply called it a tweener... nothing more. Same with Kyrgios tweener against Nadal. More you say... how about Monfils' leaping tweener at the US Open. These are not isolated incidents. We need to make sure that readers understand that the "Sabatweenie" was a particular type of tweener, a backwards tweener. We need to let them know that while a Gran Willy is a tweener, a tweener is not necessarily a Gran Wily. I have no problem saying that the term "Grand Willy" today is only used in Spanish. I tried to clarify for our readers in several edits, first here, and then here. They were reverted. It was mentioned during the move request that if we moved the term Gran Willy to Tweener that we would need to tweak the wording so as to make it clear what type of tweener we were talking about, because the term tweener is used interchangeably for any type of between-the-legs shot... so I'm not sure what the problem is. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:34, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Response copied from my talk page

I left a comment at the talk page already. The issue is that most sources use "tweener" for the backward shot, or else don't specify. Sometimes the (evidently rarer) front-facing shot is just called a "tweener", but several sources call it a "front tweener" which seems clear enough to me. The issue with your use of "backward tweener" is that it implies this is an established name, though it only turns up in 4 Google results total and not at all in any of the sources cited.

I'm just trying to follow the sources, almost all of which were introduced by me. Perhaps we could say something like "The tweener or between-the-legs shot is a difficult tennis shot where a player hits the ball between his or her legs. The term usually refers to a backward-facing shot, typically performed when the player attempts to recover a lob and has no time to turn back around. Forward-facing between-the-leg shots, sometimes called "front tweeners", are also occasionally employed".

-Cúchullain ^t/c 20:10, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree that "tweener" obviously refers to both back-facing and front-facing between the legs shots. Was that not clear? I think it's clear in the article text.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:24, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

In the history section no, it's very unclear and untruthful with regard to Federer pioneering it. But now I'm afraid to touch the article to correct the inaccuracies. A forward tweener is most commonly called a "tweener" and a backwards tweener is most commonly called a "tweener". I haven't researched or noticed enough on whether "front tweener" is used more often than "backwards tweener." I would say that between-the-legs-shot is used more often than "front tweener." Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:38, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

I changed the wording on Federer and the forward shot in the history section. What do you recommend for the rest of it? I think the biggest issue here is that most of the sources are talking about backward shots, and there seem to be a lot more sources for that than for forward shots.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:45, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

It is absolutely true that most sources talk of the backward shots, because it is the shot of the day right now (because of Federer), and the fact it is hit more often than the forward version. But per percentage of the times a forward or backward tweener is employed, the term is interchangeable. We have plenty of young readers who wouldn't know Becker and Sabatini from a hole in the ground. They have no idea which version ""the Sabatweenie" refers to, or what Becker and Agassi hit. And the tweener Federer just hit hasn't become known as a "front tweener." I've seen it more commonly called simply a "tweener." Certainly it has also been called a "front tweener" or "forward tweener" and it's a shot that has been around for 100 years. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:59, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Ok, so what changes do you recommend?--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:13, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

I would add the items in bold and remove the strikethru: Romanian Ilie Năstase, who also pioneered a backward over-the-shoulder shot known as the "Bucharest Backfire", also executed the backward tweener during the 1970s.

In the 1980s, players employing the backward tweener shot included the German player Boris Becker and Argentine Gabriela Sabatini, whose version became known as "the Sabatweenie". American Andre Agassi used it in the 1990s. In the 21st century, Swiss player Roger Federer hit tweeners on several notable occasions, further popularizing the shot. He successfully hit a backward tweener for a winner to give himself match point in the 2009 US Open semifinal, which he called "the greatest shot I ever hit in my life. Federer has also used front-facing between-the-legs shots, which has become known as a "front tweener". tweeners on several occasions. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:40, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good to me.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:57, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

How can Yannick Noah, a guy turned pro in '77 be the inventor of a shot already used by Vilas in '75? C'mon, someone has to do the math. 190.175.58.61 (talk) 00:19, 28 November 2016 (UTC)