Talk:Twelve-string guitar

Usage
In the section of this article titled "Usage" the article reads "Use of twelve-string electric guitar almost appears to be cyclical: beginning with Blind Willie McTell in the '20s and '30s, Lead Belly in the '40s..." Now, I hate to be a doubting Thomas, but I'm pretty sure that Blind Willie McTell never used an electric guitar and certainly not an electric twelve. I'm also about 99% certain that Leadbelly never used an electric twelve. This section is also just a couple of very long and somewhat confusing freight train sentences. This leads me to suggest that perhaps the "Usage" section be re-written. Don (talk) 15:03, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments
I just bought a 12-string acoustic guitar today. I've only been playing guitar (6-string) for 9-months, and this is the first time I've ever played a twelve string. Bar chords are harder, but not that much. It just took me a few trys and they sound fine now. Strumming is by far easiest on a 12-string, it's pretty hard to hit both strings when you try to play solos. It definitely wears you out a lot faster than the 6-string, I can only strum like about 5 chord progressions, then my left hand is tired. Nathan, 5-19-05

I don't mean to sound snide, but one can tell that you don't play the 12-string. It doesn't sound, feel or handle anything like a banjo. The problem with it is indeed what Kat calls cacophony, not the fact that strings are hard to fret. There are so many strings that ring that it's very easy to destroy a tune and just sound loud. This is why often a 6-string is preferable. The sound of a 12-string is so brilliant and rich to be hard to handle. Frank, May 1, 2005

Hmm, plucking individual strings. When picking a 12 string, one plucks the strings in pairs (courses) much as one would a lute. It can be done. The problems with plucking pale by comparison to the gymnastics of the left hand, particularly where bar cords are involved. You know you might have been practicing the 12 string if you can pull off a full bar cord and have all 12 notes sound true with no buzzing. Gordon Bok does this effectively on his album, A Rogue's Gallery of Songs for the 12 String. He's an obscure artist, so I wasn't sure that he is worthy of mention here, but then again he's the only one I can think of who has recorded a whole album of solo 12 string.

Last sentence. I really thought cacophony was the operative word. I didn't want to put this in the article, but the real benefit to me of a 12 string is that it allows one person to sound like a whole rhythm section. Almost, anyway; the impression one makes when playing a 12 string well is that of more than one instrument being played. To be sure, there is some greater brightness what with the doubling of the bass, but that doesn't quite capture the essence of the effect.

Tensions and gauges. They aren't standardized entirely, in that there are somewhat softer and harder stringings available in the standard packs. Some guitarists make up their own stringings, picking out one string at a time. I can look up the gauges if you really think it would help. Not sure how to come up with the tensions, as I don't have a handy reference for that.

Kat 03:13, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Feel free to rephrase :-) I haven't really played 12-string at all, so some of that was guesswork. I'm sure it's possible to play lead parts with 12-strings, and I'm sure many have done it; I was looking for a good explanation why it's not usually the case. As for pulling a bar chord; doesn't that have a lot to do with the string gauges and tension? Thicker gauges on any other guitar are harder to pull than thinner ones (due in part to the extra string tension); I would presume there are thin gauges for 12-string that make barring more feasible. But again, I lack experience here.


 * Cacophony seems like a poor word, unless you want to imply that 12-strings sound more jarring and dissonant than 6-strings. Perhaps rich, lush, elaborate, etc. might be better. Of course, talented guitarists can make even a 6-string (or 4-string bass, for that matter) sound like more than one instrument is being played. -- Wapcaplet 03:53, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I'll have to do some checking on the wiki-thesaurus ;-) to see if that perfect turn of phrase can't be found.

Should there be a mention of Nashville Tuning? If I'm not mistaken, isn't that basically a twelve string guitar with only the second set of strings? Adam Bishop 03:38, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * I've never heard of this. Kat


 * Hmm...well, basically the B and high E strings are the same but the other strings are an octave higher. I just assumed someone once had a 12-string guitar and decided to use only the second set of strings. Some Pink Floyd songs use that tuning, and presumably some country songs (hence Nashville, I guess :)) Adam Bishop 17:15, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's not difficult to play bar chords on a twelve-string. It is difficult to pluck out individual strings, and rather less difficult to pick a single course (the gap between courses is less than it is on an equivalent 6-string, and plucking the twin notes cleanly requires a nice soft right hand). In summary, the problems presented by the 12-string to the left hand are small and easily overcome, the problems presented to the right hand are significant. (And yes, I have owned three or four 12-string guitars and played them for over 20 years. Six strings also, and bass, but I was always very fond of my 12-strings.) Tannin


 * I suppose it depends on the person. When I was playing a lot, I could play bar chords.  I've never heard of trying to play a single string except when tuning up.  I never found the right hand especially difficult, though I would burn up fingernails pretty quickly if I didn't use those metal finger picks. Kat

List of significant 12-string players
Why would Slash be on there? Every hair metal axeman would occasionally bust out the twelver for power ballads and such--e.g., "Dead or Alive" by Bon Jovi--but none of these represent especially notable contributions when compared to McGuinn, Page, or Marr. --Slightlyslack 02:40, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

-- Slash played a Gibson SG-1275 for almost all of the shows on the Use Your Illusion World Tour, especially for the Wild Horses & Knockin' On Heaven's Door medley and, occasionally, the Mother & Paradise City medley. With Velvet Revolver, on the Contraband tour, he played an Acoustic/Electric double-neck 12/6 (I've forgotten what model) for You Got No Right. --Solidius 05:14, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Twelve strings vary at least as much as six string instruments. Some are almost impossible to do clear barre chords on (an old line mentions the need for Popeye's forearms, and indeed I can show you the muscle I developed over time...) while others are really quite easy to barre. The action of the instrument is everything.
 * I have a J-200-12 now (really) and it is a *very* easy instrument to play!

The neck is straight and the action low. Now that said, it is NOT a big old warhorse like an old Guild. You can "overplay" it--think harpsicord rather than pipe organ. But what tone!
 * The trickier thing is to play a 12 str *clearly*. If you want excellent 'definition' of the notes, get a nice smaller body six. But if you want to try something that rewards fewer notes with importance and grandeur, well there is a 'best bet' for you! Get a 12.
 * I promise you, they can be great fun and a wonderful inspiration.

Players of acoustic twelves fall into two main catagories. The premier example of each would be 1.(of course) Leadbelly ("The King of the Twelve String" and according to George Gruhn, probably THE reason they still exist!)and conversely someone like Mark Spoelstra, who plays a twelve with the clarity most of us would be happy with on a six. Get his first Folkways album and listen to "Buckdancer's Choice #2". It is amazing!

Leadbelly type players include Fred Gerlach, who has wonderful drama in his arrangements, Eric Darling (the few pieces he has on his solo LPs can be played with a heavy right thumb; he also was a founder of the Rooftop Singers, famous for the two 12s in the trio and "Walk Right In".), and of course Pete Seeger, although he also branched out some. Dave "Snaker" Ray (of Koerner, Ray & Glover fame) was a magnificent player and singer, and Paul Geremia also fits in here, too. And I must mention a contemporary of Leadbelly's, "The Lone Cat', Jesse Fuller, who wrote "San Francisco Bay Blues". Leadbelly thought he was the only 12 player, not so. And I wish I could have heard the music when those two finally sat down together!

The best finger pickers to my ear are Mark Spoelstra (who is why my first guitar was a 12), and certainly Leo Kotke.

Everyone else just uses 12s as another color on their palette. Even if some of them, like Glen Cambell, could really play! Even the Beatles had a go at it. Listen to "Hide Your Love Away", a very spare arrangement for them.

Also, the Leadbelly types string the instrument differently than most more modern players. On their boxes the first three (high pitch) pairs are unisons, then the next two pairs (#4 & 5) are ONE octave apart, and the bass, 6th pair is TWO octaves apart (So a regular sixth string and a regular first string!). Leadbelly also used heavy gauge strings and tuned about four frets, or semitones, low!
 * The "modern" setup is first two pairs in unison, and the lower four pairs all ONE octave apart. That is the way I have always played, but I would love to try a big, old box strung up the old way! And even though I string in the modern mode, I have always tuned two or three frets low.

Nashville tuning is indeed just the "thin strings" of the pairs put on a six. Nashvile studio types love to add that sound to a group session (indeed, how many guitars can you have going before it all goes mushy? This tactic gives another flavor to the stew...). But I have never heard it used very much by a solo player. Try it on a spare guitar sometime, kinda fun. But it's much better in a group.

They are wonderful, and I have never been without at least one in the bunch!

--- Alan Sparhawk plays a Danelectro 12-string.

Chris de Burgh during The Road to Freedom performances was using electric 12 string guitars exclusively as far as I'm aware (in terms of guitars, he did play a piano as well). Matheau 15:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC) Matthew 04 September 2006

Title problem.
I believe the title should be Twelve-string guitar. Can someone move it to a new title? Mengsk 21:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Removed some incorrect information
Traditional Brazilian music does not use a 12-string. It uses a 10-string guitar ("viola" is the name of the 10-string, not the style), typically with different tunings from the 12-string. A link on the 10-string: --LodeRunner 22:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

stringing a twelve string...Apart from being a bitch to tune
i recently saw a twelve string strung with the light string before rather than after the heavy string on a downward strum is this correct or is it just personal choice —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.152.80.13 (talk) 18:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC).


 * that is the normal stringing for an acoustic 12. rickenbacker switched it around for their electrics and i guess it's backmigrated to acoustics? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.110.223 (talk) 21:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe it's a lefty Garr1984 02:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)§

Tony Banks
Since Hackett, Rutherford and Phillips are mentioned, maybe Tony Banks should be too? He frequently played 12-string on Genesis studio albums and stage performances. Whitespacebug 16:56, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Standardized spelling?
Wow, this article needs a lot of work to sound encyclopedic. But I think at the very least there should be a standardized spelling (if that's the right word) for twelve string/twelve-string/12 string/12-string. The article title is currently "Twelve string", so that would be the obvious choice (although I personally would prefer "12-string"). --emw 16:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This needs correcting. Is it "twelve string" or "12 string"?  The article uses both.  --Dan East 22:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I changed to 12-string per MOS number, but cannot retitle (or even should be?)76.189.141.88 (talk) 23:09, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Players?
Could someone make a separate article called List of twelve-string guitar players or something?

--TimNelson 05:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - the lists seem like a way of making a very short article seem more full...

--85.210.40.201 22:35, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't find the list of musicians in this post very useful because it contains just about anyone who aver got close to a 12-string. Jimi Hendrix played the 12-string once in a studio, because it was the only thing they had there, but can hardly be called a 12-string guitarist. On the other hand, many people bought a 12-string because they liked Leo Kottke, but he is hardly mentioned. He should have a section only for himself because of how important he was for the instrument. I would prune the list drastically. urashimataro, Nov. 25, 2007

No one should get their own section, because whether or not he made it popular, there were a ton of others who made the same contribution to the popularity of the instrument. Anyway, there should be a set criteria for the list, and every addition should be checked, and after cutting it down, if it is still longer than the actual information on the instrument, it should be moved to a seperate location. This list desperatly needs uniforn formatting and a lot of clean up as well. I just had to take Steve Howe off because he was on the list of notable acustic players twice... With the formatting, every musician should have the name of the group or groups they were in when they used a twelve-string, or if it was in a solo work, that should be noted instead, because it looks awful as it is.

-Unoriginal Username (talk) 19:21, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Leo Kottke was indeed a big contributor to the popularity of the 12-string, but I still don't think he should get his own section, only his place on the list. And Jimi Hendrix also used a 12-string on a music video of Hear My Train A Comin' (that's not the one, and I'm actually not sure if Hear My Train A Comin' was the one I was thinking of :P). But he's not exactly a big contributor, and I don't think he should be on the list, even though he's one of my favourite guitarists, and definitely made the electric guitar a lot more popular. The list shouldn't be acoustic/electric/whatever guitar used, IMO it should be in chronological order, and it should be a lot shorter. As of writing this, the electric section is completely empty (vandalism?). I'm not exactly the one to rewrite it though, since I've never even played a 12-string (only six strings for me), and I thought I'd get someone else's opinion first. -- Kankkis (talk) 19:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Article name
There's been a bit of discussion over the years as to the article name, with twelve string guitar and 12 string guitar most popular. I don't think there's any clear leader, there are many authorities and no consistency. I've renamed ten string guitar to fit the pattern that's been adopted by default here for the moment. Other ideas welcome. Andrewa (talk) 17:58, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

And sombody else immediately changed it back! See Talk:Ten-string guitar. Andrewa (talk) 04:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Back in the day, my English teacher's rule was numbers up to ten were always spelled out and above ten were in numerals unless at the start of a sentence. Numerals were used in all cases in lists, tables and the like. So if we follow this rule, we would use "12" except at the start of a sentence. However, the question of whether or not to use a hyphen is more complicated. It seems to me that there tends to be a progression in similar cases where one starts out with the two words separately, moves to a hyphen after the phrase starts to become established, and eventually end up with the two words run together if the particular usages becomes established enough. Personally, since there are various types of guitars with various string configurations I would favor unhyphened, but that's merely my own opinion. I doubt that there is any one universally accepted standard, and I expect that there are varying rules regarding both the use of numerals and hyphens that there is no one authority that we can turn to. Wschart (talk) 14:02, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR (talk) 05:29, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Twelve string guitar → Twelve-string guitar — Attempt at a convention, so please indicate either way whether you also support this format for other guitar articles — Andrewa (talk) 14:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Support as nominator. This seems the best of several options, and will I hope set a precedent either way. Andrewa (talk) 15:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Support ... yeah, for a variety of reasons, the form with a hyphen and with the number spelled out seems the most reasonable. i support the form being used for titles of other guitar articles as well. Sssoul (talk) 12:53, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

This was discussed briefly above under Standardized spelling? but no conclusion was reached, and more recently of course at Article name above and most significantly at Talk:Ten-string guitar. The issues are:


 * Should the name include a hyphen? See Manual of Style.


 * Should the number be expressed as numerals or spelled out?

So far as a common name is concerned, it seems to me that all four possibilities (hyphen or no, numerals or spelled out) are in common use. So far as WP:NC is concerned, all four possibilites would be equally easily recognised by both native and non-native English speakers.

I am seeking here a precedent that can be applied also to other guitar articles, such as Seven-string guitar and Eight-string guitar which already follow the proposed convention, and of course Ten-string guitar which inspired this move proposal.

I am not however seeking at this stage to clarify any wider convention, that is to resolve either issue in any article other than those concerning guitars with a particular number of strings. So I suggest leaving discussion of articles such as for example 5 star rank to another place and time. Andrewa (talk) 15:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Note also that the Seven-string guitar article currently reads ''There are eight-string and ten-string guitars in use as well, but these are even less common. Twelve-string guitars are more common...'', that is, the twelve-string is the most common of these guitars, and I agree with this (unsourced) claim. The only one that is even a possible contender is the seven-string adding a bass B below the normal bass E string, versions of which have considerable following in classical guitar, orchestral and jazz music.

So if we were to decide that some other convention is appropriate for this article, there could be a case for applying it to the articles about these rarer variants. Andrewa (talk) 16:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Other possibly affected articles are Eight string bass guitar and Twelve-string bass. Andrewa (talk) 17:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

A more detailed look at hyphens
I've been doing some work on the twelve-string bass article, and it raises some interesting issues on the matter of the hyphen. Basically, there's an instrument produced now by several makers with four courses each of three strings, and it's called the twelve-string bass (with hyphen). There are also basses of other, rarer configurations also with twelve strings, and these are twelve string basses (no hyphen, so it's just a description of a bass with twelve strings) but not twelve-string basses (with hyphen, so it's the name of the specific instrument).

This seems to work in favour of the current proposal as well. The twelve-string guitar has six courses of two strings each, and that's what this article is about. If we found another type of guitar with twelve strings in a different configuration, it would still be a twelve string guitar but not a twelve-string guitar.

It also works in favour of the current resolution of the discussion that triggered this. The article on ten-string guitar is about instruments by that name. The most common baroque guitar is also a guitar with ten strings, and is a far more significant instrument than either of the modern ten-string designs, but it's not commonly called a ten-string guitar, although it could accurately be described as a ten string guitar. Andrewa (talk) 20:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

"is a far more significant instrument than either of the modern ten-string designs". This is your OPINION and you seem hardly qualified as a musicologist or serious music critic or even performer to be making this judgement. Frankly, you should educate yourself on the correct grammatical use of hyphens. "Twelve string basses" would grammatically signify twelve separate instruments (string basses, or contrabass violins). The above makes no sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.94.133.166 (talk) 06:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I won't reply to the personal attacks above, and the claim that the above makes no sense is vague enough to require no reply. As to the significance of the various instruments, Google gives me 88,600 ghits for baroque guitar, as opposed to 547 for modern ten-string guitar and ten (10) for romantic ten-string guitar. (Your totals may of course vary slightly as Google takes the requestors's location into account.) While Google is not God, these figures are disparate enough to make a prima facie case as to the greater significance of the baroque guitar.

But I could easily be wrong about the significance of any of these instruments. There's no doubt in my mind that they all exist and all have their enthusiasts, and I'd be very interested in any evidence you can offer that these other ten string guitars are of equal or greater significance when compared to the baroque guitar.

Lastly, it's certainly true that twelve string basses could refer to twelve of the instrument known as a string bass rather than to an indefinite number of the instrument known as a twelve string bass. This is an example of ambiguity, and it's very common in English. But so far as I can see, twelve string bass is unambiguous. Andrewa (talk) 14:10, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

12 string guitar gauges
(cross posted from Wikiproject Guitarists Hello, I went to the Twelve-string guitar for help with set up. I've never bought a '12 string set' of strings and have usually winged it with 2 sets of strings at differernt gauges, but I've never been quite sure I've got it right. I've usually set it so the bass E A D and G are at octaves of each other and then tuned identical B's and treble E's to the same pitch as each other. Might something be added to the article to suggest the most common set up? Even better, would be to also list typical string gauges as well as the notes they are tuned to. Regards --Joopercoopers (talk) 12:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Good idea. But in Australia, 12 string sets are very common... I have never had any trouble buying them. Normally they have the setup you describe above, with octave G, but unison G is preferred by many electic guitarists. I think we need an article on string gauge. Andrewa (talk) 09:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. --Joopercoopers (talk) 09:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

The pictures...
I'm not so much complaining as I am curious - why are both pictures of Maton guitars? Fine guitars, I am sure, but not that well known outside of their native Australia. The electric 12-string picture in particular, which shows a Maton Magnetone which is said to be a copy of a Rickenbacker 360/12 - why not a picture of an actual Rickenbacker? It's probably nothing, I just find it odd that those particular pictures have been used. -- Snograt  talk here 15:10, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It's very simple... I own Maton guitars (by choice, but then I'm an Aussie), and so don't currently have a Rickie or Gibson to photograph! They're all excellent guitars, although I found the Rickie 360/12 I played for a while a lot bluesier than the Magnetone, which has a sweet tone all of its own, much less of a Rickie copy than it looks, and it's strung conventionally with the E octave as string 12 not 11 for example (so you'd need to modify the head nut to string it Rickie style). The Gibson 12s I've played have been superb, but a little too sweet for my taste, the Fenders a bit bluesie. For me the Matons hit the balance. But agree that they're not typical, and examples from the USA (the birthplace of the modern 12 after all) would be preferable. Ideally a Rickie 360/12 and a Gibson Hummingbird IMO. Andrewa (talk) 17:56, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Use for lead
"Because it is substantially more difficult to pluck individual strings on the twelve-string guitar, and almost impossible to bend notes tunefully, the instrument is rarely used for lead musical parts." This would be news to both George Harrison as well as Roger McGuinn. "Rarely" seems to be a bit of a weasel word: when does "rarely" transform into, for example, "occasionally". Whether or not 12 is used for lead work depends to a large degree on the genre of music: it was not all that uncommon in the "folk" revival of the late 50s and early 60s (think "Walk Right In", British Invasion (the Hollies used on on occasion, in addition to the Beatles), and folk-rock. Wschart (talk) 18:13, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Bajo sexto ?
I’ve encountered some difficulties in pointing out the differences between a twelve string gt and a bajo sexto.

I’m not a musician at all, but, as far as I can read, both gtrs look the same, each one w/ 12 strings in 6 double courses.

Would main differences rely upon their size ? type of wood ? tuning ? no electric bajo sexto ?

I find it rather odd that neither a single word is said about bajo sexto nor a link to it is made in the 12 string gt article

Thanks for any help :-)

--Bibliorock (talk) 09:51, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Among the 39 registered watchers of this article, would a musician be kind enough to answer me... and some other readers ?

Thanks in advance :-) --Bibliorock (talk) 06:06, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * A Bajo Sexto is a bass, It's tuned with bass notes, and it translates to "sixth bass". I think that answers that question. Captain Superman (talk) 06:05, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Merci beaucoup, sincèrement :-) --Bibliorock (talk) 02:53, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

History?
I'm not knowlegable enough to do it, but it would be helpful to have a "History" section discussing the origins and spread of the instrument.

For instance, (I'm not sure how to add such a long quote, with internal citations, or if we would include only parts of it?):

From: The Influences of Hispanic Music Cultures on African-American Blues Musicians, Peter Narváez, Black Music Research Journal, Vol. 22, Supplement: Best of BMRJ (2002), pp. 175-196, Center for Black Music Research - Columbia College, Chicago and University of Illinois Press

Quoting: [without including internal citation information] "More immediate musical links with Mexican players can be heard in the music of Blind Lemon Jefferson's partner, Huddie Ledbetter (1888-1949), a.k.a. "Leadbelly," who migrated to Dallas from Louisiana, met Jefferson in 1912 and played regularly with him for five years. A talented singer and multi-instrumentalist (guitar, mandolin, accordion, and harmonica), at some point Leadbelly encountered Mexican-made bajosextos and twelve-string guitars, instruments originally from central Mexico which at the time were emerging, along with the accordion, as core instruments of border conjuntos (Pefia 1985, 38-39, 54). When he first played these instruments, "his fingers got to 'mashing too hard"' (Wolfe and Lornell 1992, 51), but he soon mastered a technique that, as Texas blues historian Alan Govenar (1988, 19) has noted, was "learned from the bass figures of barrelhouse pianists and from the Mexicans who sold him a twelve-string guitar." A comparison of Leadbelly's twelve-string bass runs with those of accomplished Mexican-American singer-guitarist Lydia Mendoza reveals startling similarities in rhythms and marcato attack; for example, consider her "El lirio" ("The Lily"; 1934) and Leadbelly's rendition of "Sweet Jenny Lee" (1948). Given the popularity of waltz rhythm among cantadores,it is noteworthy that one of the first songs Leadbelly adapted to the twelve-string guitar was "Irene," a waltz he learned from his uncle Bob Ledbetter (Wolfe and Lornell 1992, 52-53)."

I'd like to have more references like that to where early players go their instruments and developed their style. Were 12 strings all developed from the Bajo Sexto? That would be interesting to know. --Accordion Noir (talk) 18:00, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Chorus effect
The article says n the "Chorus effect" section that the dual strings are tuned to exactly the same pitch, yet produce a beat effect through phase difference. That is, of course, not possible - beat is by definition produced by a difference in frequency. Phase difference produces interference.

So either the strings are not tuned to exactly the same frequency, or the effect produced is not beat.

178.10.186.69 (talk) 12:18, 22 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The way I've heard it, it is difficult to tune the two strings to exactly the same frequency, or in the case of the lower strings, to exactly an octave. So you're going to get a bit of a beat. I suspect that when fretting one course, the different gauge strings will react slightly differently and hence the intonation will be slightly different. Plus you get some beats even in a six because the guitar is fretted to equal temperament and the intervals are as a consequence slightly out of tune. Wschart (talk) 04:04, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Origin Incorrect
The bajo sexto is not a "likely" ancestor of the 12-string guitar, but a relatively recent descendent of the 12-string guitar. Bajo sextos first appeared in the early 20th century (sometime after 1916), whereas 12 string guitars go back to the 19th century, and were being sold in catalogs by 1898. The origin of the modern 12-string guitar is either from a rediscovery of double-strung baroque guitars and lutes, or as an offshoot of the development of the harp guitar, and most likely from elements of both.

"Notable players" list too long
As seems to be usual with these types of articles, the list of "notable players" is far too long, and filled with irrelevant detail.

I submit that a "notable player" is not simply any guitarist who happens to have used a 12-string guitar in their act now and then, but one who either: 1) uses 12-string as their primary (or one of their primary) instruments most of the time (e.g., Ledbelly; Ralph Towner; Leo Kotke); or  2) who is responsible for using the instrument an uncommon genre, or in an especially unusual -- and therefore notable -- way within a genre (e.g. Larry Coryell; Pat Metheny).

I suggest a savage editing of this list of notables, and reducing it to a dozen or so of the truly notable *12-string* players, with perhaps a link to a separate list of "12-string guitarists" -- as has been done with other genres.


 * I've cleaned a lot of this up, alphabetized names within categories, and removed a lot of fluff. Basically, if a guitarist's own bio didn't mention "12-string", and I couldn't verify that 12-string had either been their major instrument, or that they had used the instrument in a particularly noteworthy way, I took them off the list.  What's left is a reasonably representative sampling, covering a broad range of genres, but which doesn't clutter up the article with a long generic list of people's "favorite guitarists who once looked at a 12-string."
 * 74.95.43.249 (talk) 04:34, 11 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The effort is appreciated. However, I note that since that overhaul, the article has bloated back to its previous size, almost entirely due to list additions. Time perhaps for the next step. Weeb Dingle (talk) 08:43, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

SUGGESTION — I am preparing to move all the fanboy trivia off to List of people who may have played a twelve-string guitar at least once. I will also consider for inclusion nominations of characters from fiction (published or not) and anime, as well as any dimly remembered family stories about Great-Grampa. Opinions? Weeb Dingle (talk) 08:21, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Would be better to just pare it down or delete it. We should not encourage this behavior at Wikipedia at all, and passing the buck doesn't fix it.  The list should be pared down to guitarists who used a 12-string guitar as their primary instrument, and/or who were particularly noted for skill or innovation on it.  -- Jayron 32 13:08, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Also, the entire list should have references for each individual entry. -- Jayron 32 13:09, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I like a criterion mentioned a few years back, namely that an individual is not "a 12-string player" unless a properly cited source clearly SAYS so. If that's a bit too strict, then at least mention must be made in that person's WP article (with, of course, a valid citation). And if neither standard has been met, then the name drops off the list — period. Weeb Dingle (talk) 07:26, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with that criterion for inclusion on this page.
 * I'd also like to suggest that all those people who have been mentioned as playing 12-string should be placed in a list article "List of twelve-string guitar players" or a category "Twelve-string guitar players". Tayste (edits) 21:39, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Notable players list workspace
I'm creating this section to allow us to fix and build the list before returning it to the main page. As an entirely uncited list without criteria, we can move back entries once we have a) guitarists who meet the criteria because b) we include a direct inline citation to verify that they meet the criteria. -- Jayron 32 13:11, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Performers who have used 12-string guitar as one of their primary instruments, or in a notable way, span a range of genres: • Ambient

• * Steve Tibbetts

• Blues/Ragtime

• * Lead Belly (Huddie Ledbetter)

• * Blind Willie McTell

• Classic rock

• * Paul Brett

• Folk/Americana

• * Robbie Basho

• * James Blackshaw

• * Gordon Bok

• * Bob Gibson

• * Leo Kottke

• * Gordon Lightfoot

• * Roo Panes

• * Keith Potger of The Seekers

• * Dick Rosmini

• * Pete Seeger with The Weavers

• Folk rock

• * John Allan Cameron

• Jazz

• * John McLaughlin

• * Ralph Towner of Oregon

• Rock

• * Mike Rutherford (Genesis)

• * David Gilmour (Pink Floyd)

• * George Harrison (The Beatles)

• * Justin Hayward (Moody Blues)

• * Wayne Hussey (The Mission UK)

• * Roger McGuinn of the Byrds

• * Michael Nesmith of the Monkees and the First National Band

• * Hilton Valentine of The Animals

• Rockabilly

• * Billy Strange

• Shoegaze

• * Mark Gardener of Ride



Electric Rickenbacker 12-string users include a range of jangle pop guitarists:
 * Johnny Marr of The Smiths
 * George Harrison of The Beatles
 * Roger McGuinn of The Byrds
 * Hilton Valentine of The Animals
 * Tom Petty
 * Carl Wilson of The Beach Boys
 * Marty Willson-Piper of The Church

Users of other electric 12-string models:
 * Elvis Presley
 * Pete Townshend of The Who
 * Mark Knopfler
 * Lou Reed and Sterling Morrison of The Velvet Underground
 * Gene Clark of The Byrds
 * Josh Klinghoffer of Red Hot Chili Peppers
 * Kurt Vile
 * Peter Holmstrom of The Dandy Warhols
 * Anton Newcombe, Ricky Maymi and various other members of The Brian Jonestown Massacre
 * John Dwyer of Thee Oh Sees
 * Andy White aka Andy Boay of Tonstartssbandht, Mac DeMarco

The Gibson EDS-1275 electric 12-string has been used by:
 * Mikael Åkerfeldt of Opeth
 * Jeff Buckley
 * The Edge of U2
 * Don Felder of The Eagles
 * Warren Haynes of Gov't Mule and The Allman Brothers Band
 * Alex Lifeson of Rush
 * Daron Malakian of System of a Down and Scars on Broadway
 * John McLaughlin of Mahavishnu Orchestra
 * Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine
 * Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin,
 * Slash of Guns N' Roses

names that should be removed from the foregoing list
Start right at the top. Weeb Dingle (talk) 17:38, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Per his article, Ariel Camacho played a requinto, a short-scale guitar with nylon strings. Since the present article begins The twelve-string guitar is a steel-string guitar, this entry quickly has three strikes against it. (Actually, the claim "He quickly became known for his expressive way of playing the requinto" is not substantiated by an outside source.) Fail.
 * Steve Tibbetts? Well, he's a friend of a friend, so I'm biased by OR. However, the sole cited source in his article is a dead link so therefore invalid. At best, on the cusp.
 * Cazenave: no mention AT ALL of string number. Fail.
 * Rev Davis: no mention at all. The article in fact shows him with a six-string. Fail.
 * Ledbetter: okay, Mister Twelve-String himself. Cited sources are questionable and largely third-hand, but meets present criteria. Success.
 * McTell: claimed twice, no corroboration, BUT he recorded the LP Atlanta Twelve String. Success.
 * Campbell: certainly used an Ovation 12 ("Southern Nights" for instance), but entirely NOT mentioned in article. Fail.
 * McMurtry: not mentioned AT ALL in article proper. Fail.
 * Roy Clark: no mention. Fail.
 * Paul Brett: why is he under Classical when his article says "classic rock"??? While he endorsed a line of acoustic instruments, no claim made that he played one, but he did record 12 String Guitar & Beyond. Success.
 * Basho: no source to support sole claim, but recorded Art of the Acoustic Steel String Guitar 6 & 12. Success.


 * I think this page should only mention people who are (1) wp:notable enough to have their own page here and that (2) their page mentions that the 12-string guitar was their main instrument for at least a significant period in their career. That is, famous specifically for playing 12-string. Is that approximately the criteria being used? Tayste (edits) 21:32, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Weeb Dingle (talk) 15:38, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
 * ADD — folkie Gordon Bok: content possibly stolen from AllMusic.com (cited) which does mention 12-string. Also recorded A Rogue's Gallery of Songs for the 12 String (1999).
 * REMOVED — all of the yak-yak text added by fanboy "citizen journalists" because this is A LIST. Go put that stuff in the article proper.

There's a proliferation of "barely" names that might be readily corrected by someone more sympathetic than me, or can be cut. There seems to be a trend here. Anyone may step in and remove the fails from the foregoing list. Weeb Dingle (talk) 17:15, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Blackshaw: mentioned, and supported by AllMusic. Success.
 * Geremia: no string count. Fail.
 * Gibson: mentioned in article, but unsupported. Success, but barely.
 * Neil Jacobs: no article. Fail.
 * Kottke: multiple mentions, credibly supported. Success.
 * Lightfoot: claimed, but supporting ref is dead; photo playing a 12. Success, but barely.
 * Panes: claim made, but unsupported. Success, but barely.
 * Potger: poorly cited in article, but supported by referenced Seekers site. Success.
 * Reid: claimed, but no references at all. Fail.
 * Rosmini: claimed, supported by obituatry (cited), recorded Adventures for 12-String, 6-String and Banjo. Success.
 * Seeger: claimed, external support. Success.
 * Tim Buckley: no mention. Fail.
 * Cameron: mention and photo, but not explicitly supported. Success, but barely.
 * Nathanson: mention, but no support offered. Fail.
 * Paul Simon: no mention. Fail.
 * Dave Mason: mention, no support offered. Fail.
 * Butler: mention, but unsupported by only unbroken link. Fail.
 * Breau: no mention. Fail.
 * Catherine: no mention. Fail.
 * Coryell: no mention. Fail.
 * McLaughlin: mention, supported. Success.
 * Metheny: claimed, but entirely unsupported. Fail.
 * Towner: claimed, but poorly supported. Passing mention of 12 on one label site (cited). Success, but barely.
 * Marley: no mention. Fail.
 * Bowie: no mention. Fail.
 * Etheridge: no mention. Fail.
 * Farrar: no mention. Fail.
 * Felder: mentions signature version of Gibson EDS-1275, but no support offered. Fail.
 * Gallagher: no mention. Fail.
 * I've removed the first wave. Weeb Dingle (talk) 19:33, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

names to be removed II

 * Genesis (band): "Several songs … originated on 12-string guitars" claimed but unsupported. (Instruments apparently playing without human aid.) Success, barely.
 * Phillips: no mention. Fail.
 * Rutherford: claim made at least six times in article, with no support offered. Success, barely.
 * Banks: mentioned only in passing, without support. Fail.
 * Hackett: no mention. Fail.
 * Gilmour: citation verifies he owns one, no mention of play. Success, barely.
 * Harrison: one poorly-written mention, but properly sourced. Success.
 * Hayward: no explicit, but refers to a supportive interview. Not pretty, but success.
 * Hussey: explicitly claimed, but cannot verify. Had an electric 12 custom built. Really cutting it close, but success.
 * Lake: no mention. Fail.
 * Mackenzie: no personal article, no mention in band article. Fail.
 * McGuinn: support, quote, photo. Success.
 * Nesmith: success.
 * Sambora: passing mention, no support. Fail.
 * Valentine: mention of ownership, verified. Success, barely.
 * Strange: no mention whatever, but recorded 12 String Guitar. Success, barely.
 * Mendoza: claimed in infobox, no support. Fail.
 * Swift: no mention. Fail.
 * Thomas: no article. Fail.
 * McCabe: no article; no mention in band article. Fail.
 * Bell: no mention. Fail.
 * Gardener: claimed, no support. Success, barely.
 * Berenyi: no mention. Fail.
 * Halstead: nomention. Fail.
 * Patman: no article; no mention in band article. Fail.
 * Sherriff: no article. Fail.

So, onward to the Ric users, who must at least be tied to "12-string" AND "Rickenbacker." (I'm uncomfortable, as this seems to be WP plugging a particular brand.) Entries redundant with previous block ought to be cut. Weeb Dingle (talk) 17:04, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Buck: no mention. Fail.
 * Marr: half-decent fanboyish support. Success.
 * Harrison: more fanboyism, but supported. Success.
 * Lennon: Ric, no 12. Fail.
 * McGuinn: verified by cited interview. Success.
 * Valentine: received unspecified Ric 12 (electric?). Success, barely.
 * Petty: ownership, but specific play vague. Success, barely.
 * McNally: photo, but no mention or citation. Fail.
 * Wilson: claimed, poorly supported. Success, barely.
 * Fradkin: claimed, unsupported. Fail.
 * Connell and Huntley: no mention. Fail.
 * Howes: no mention. Fail.
 * Wilson-Piper: mention, poorly supported. Success, barely.
 * Second wave of removals. Weeb Dingle (talk) 04:33, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Self promotion and vandalism.
Two recent additions were made to the electric 12 string section, which I feel rather protective of as I wrote the majority of it, which look like self promotion.

Someone inserted the information that "Musicvox began producing the Space Cadet 12 string guitar 1999 and MI-5 12 string guitar in 2011". I deleted this as producing a new model of guitar in the 90s or 2000s hardly seems notable, no one particularly famous seems to be using this model guitar, nor has it introduced anything new to the instrument in terms of innovations or design. The editor has inserted the same information into a couple of other pages about this companies instruments and this amounts to their whole contribution to WP.

Someone inserted the name of a guitarist called "Cory Stuteville, of the band Perception". I cannot find any information on this person or his band online (there's a metal band of this name on Youtube, they do not match the description given so I assume they're not the same.) Verlaine76 (talk) 13:32, 25 September 2019 (UTC)