Talk:Typography of Apple Inc.

Apple Symbols font
I found an interesting curiosity when I was digging around in Font Box, looking at Apple Symbols' repertoire. It turns out that Font Book reveals 227 glyphs that are not accessible from the Unicode charset. They're simply not mapped in the cmap table. They're fun symbols from Apple's history, for example keyboard symbols, port symbols, Apple logos, the Newton logo in two different styles. I used ftxdumperfuser to map them into the Unicode private use area successfully. Loads of fun :-). &mdash; David Remahl 06:05, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * These glyphs are quite easily accessible using the Character Palette:
 * Choose Glyph from the View pop-up
 * Select the Glyph Catalogue tab
 * Choose Apple Symbols from the Font pop-up
 * The glyphs David refers to are at positions 950 to 1143 and can be inserted into any document that supports referencing Glyph IDs (such as RTF). I notice that the glyphs do have particularly high baselines. On ones such as the QuickTime 1.0 logo this is particularly evident. Nicholas 13:25, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Oh, that's interesting! But I can't find a "View" popup on Character Palette... Actually, there are a few more that I don't think are assigned Unicode to characters at: 321, 402, 740–755, 757, 780–787, 817–822, 949, 950–1143 &mdash; David Remahl 13:56, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * (From an email I just sent someone who asked for more info...) If you have 10.3 and Just want to see the font in action, open TextEdit, press command-T to open the fonts panel, select Apple Symbols, then, if you can't see a 'gear' icon in the bottom-left of your fonts panel, expand it a bit until you can, click the gear icon and choose Characters… (you could also open it from the keyboard menu if you have that turned on). Make sure you can see the "View" pop-up by showing the palettes toolbar (oval button in the top right of the window frame) and select Glyph. Then choose Apple Symbols from the pop-up, and click on any which take your interest. the "Insert With Font" button will insert the glyph you have selected into your TextEdit document. You can only save this is you save in RTF (rich text) format. Nicholas 22:31, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Trouble with translation
Hello,

I am currently translating a part of this article in french, and I have a little problem with a sentence :
 * the hinting required to create a TrueType font 

I did not find a senseful meaning for "hinting" in this context, may I have some explanation (in english) ?

Cdang 08:24, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Hinting has to do with how glyphs are rendered out on a device with a low resolution. With a limited number of pixels available, it becomes important to make the best use of every one of them. By adding "hints" to a font, the typeface designer can provide guidance to the font rendering engine about how to best reduce the font to low point sizes on a computer display. Hinting can also affect the spacing between letters. The process is rather complicated, and my knowledge on the topic is not very deep. I plan to read up on it, and create hinting, as well as the unwritten section of this article about Apple's hinting patents.


 * Here are some URLs that may help:, , , (and let this day be remembered as the day that David linked twice to microsoft.com) &mdash; David Remahl 08:43, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Thanx a lot. I don't know any translation for this, but with this, I'll be able to explain it in the French version. Cdang 08:11, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

More examples
The images on de:Apple show examples of fonts in use, including an Apple logo I've never seen before, from their very earliest days. Nicholas 14:33, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've seen it! A terrible logo! :-).


 * It is mentioned in one of the references, . The logo was drawn by Ron Wayne, and depicts Isaac Newton sitting below an Apple tree. In the frame, there is a quotation by William Wordsworth, about Newton. Obviously the logo worked extremely poorly in small sizes.


 * Unfortunately I don't have any experience in identifying fonts, and I've been unable to find any sources that mention the typeface used in the logo. Since it was apparently hand drawn, it could be Wayne's own design. It looks similar to some versions of Caslon. Many of the characters are pretty close to Big Caslon included with Mac OS X. On the other hand, the "R" is very different, the O is drawn with an almost constant stroke width, while in Big Caslon it is elongated. The difference in weight of the two strokes in the "A" is greater in Apple's logo. I browsed some Caslon-related typefaces on, but couldn't find a better match, though. The Caslon at the very end of this page looks like an excellent match too, but the page doesn't specify exactly which font was used.


 * When I'm satisfied with this article, I plan to write an Apple logo article too. So stay tuned :-). &mdash; David Remahl 22:20, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Apple dumped this logo reportedly because it was too busy and complex. --DF08 (English) 10:14, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

WorldScript
I was a bit shocked to find that WorldScript is not even mentioned in the otherwise vast and interesting article. I'd also like to see a bit more about ATSUI. Would anyone like to add some more information? &mdash; Hippietrail 13:22, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * You're right, it will be a very important part of the article...It should probably go under the System 7 – 9 subsection to Font management and capabilities. Unfortunately, I don't know WorldScript that well, so unless someone else writes it, I'll have to do some studying. &mdash; David Remahl 19:26, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I added some basic info about it to the above-mentioned section...I think I'm going to post a note on User_talk:Evertype and ask if Michael Everson could expand on it. I think we should leave the nitty-gritty details for WorldScript, though, since the WorldScript connection to "Typography" is rather weak. &mdash; David Remahl 06:46, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Errata
I believe the part about Microsoft's ClearType not being able to be tuned is not correct. Microsoft provides a tool for doing so.

http://www.microsoft.com/typography/cleartype/tuner/Step1.aspx

Jobs' role
Much of Apple's use of typography was due to Steve Jobs (at least according to Jobs himself), who said in a commencement address at Stanford:

"Reed College at that time offered perhaps the best calligraphy instruction in the country. Throughout the campus every poster, every label on every drawer, was beautifully hand calligraphed. Because I had dropped out and didn't have to take the normal classes, I decided to take a calligraphy class to learn how to do this. I learned about serif and sans‐serif typefaces, about varying the amount of space between different letter combinations, about what makes great typography great. It was beautiful, historical, artistically subtle in a way that science can't capture, and I found it fascinating.

None of this had even a hope of any practical application in my life. But ten years later, when we were designing the first Macintosh computer, it all came back to me. And we designed it all into the Mac. It was the first computer with beautiful typography. If I had never dropped in on that single course in college, the Mac would have never had multiple typefaces or proportionally spaced fonts. And since Windows just copied the Mac, its likely that no personal computer would have them. If I had never dropped out, I would have never dropped in on this calligraphy class, and personal computers might not have the wonderful typography that they do. Of course it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college. But it was very, very clear looking backwards ten years later." --Wasabe3543 02:45, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Edited Mac OS X Fonts not included
I've removed the line: 'Many of the classic Mac typefaces included with previous versions are not part of Mac OS X. The serif typefaces New York, Palatino, and Times were dropped, as were the sans-serif Charcoal and Chicago' as this aappears to be not true, according to List of fonts in Mac OS X and Microsoft's List of Mac OS X fonts in the public beta Just thought I'd flag it here in case anyone knows the origin of this sentence and whether it was supposed to mean something else... Scottkeir 12:29, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
 * They were dropped from Mac OS X in as much as they only came with Mac OS 9, which itself came with Mac OS X as part of the Classic Environment. If you installed Classic, you got them. Suffice to say that they no longer came with OS X once Apple stopped including Mac OS 9 with it. Nicholas 16:19, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

⌘
I find ⌘ is an important part of Apple's typography. --Abdull 21:25, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

More Errata
I just noticed London is missing from Image:Original Mac fonts.png. Nicholas 16:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

What is this article's focus?
This is a very confused article, as witnessed from the clumsy wording in the opening paragraph. Does "Apple typography" refer to the corporate fonts used by the company over its history, the fonts which ship with its operating systems, or the font technologies (such as TrueType) developed by the company? I think this article needs to define its focus more specifically, and much of the content of this article should be moved out to other articles - most specifically the sections about TrueType and ClearType, especially since the latter has nothing to do with Apple. - Brian Kendig 19:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It refers to all the stuff you mentioned, which is what the wording explains. ClearType has a significant relation to TrueType, which is related to Apple. — Wackymacs 19:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Gotcha - that's the problem, then; this article has far too wide a scope. My problem with the opening paragraph started when I tried to think of a way to reword "Apple typography covers several topics..."' and wasn't able to find a way to start a sentence with "Apple typography is" - it's just to all-encompassing a term. - Brian Kendig 21:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

propose split and disambig
i suggest splitting this article into Macintosh typography and apple marketing typography any objections? Plugwash 13:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I suggest leaving well enough alone. Evertype 18:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with others on this talk page that the current situation isn’t quite “well enough.” —Banzai! (talk) @ 03:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * BTW, hats off to you for designing LastResort... truly a work of art (I'm not kidding). I'm awed to be in your presence. —Banzai! (talk) @ 08:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Include information about "resource forks"?
Mac OS includes the ability to create and use a "resource fork" from several related font files. Good example: Lucida Grande is stored typically at, but the actual font family is made up of two TrueType files (LucidaGrande.ttf and LucidaGrandeBold.ttf) merged into a single "resource fork" with the file extension of ".dfont". Fondu is a program that can convert dfonts to their respective TrueType, OpenType, Type 1, and/or Glyph bitmaps. I don't know anything more than that about what a resource fork even is in this context, but it might be worth including in the formats section. -Matt 20:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The article already covers what is going on with .dfont files. They do look like old Mac resource forks, but the font is really in the data fork on those. Generally .dfont files don't even have resource forks. --iMb~Meow 05:21, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Proposed split
The article currently describes: Why are these two seemingly very distinct topics crammed together in a single article? Would anyone object if I went ahead and separated them, say, into two articles named as above? (No responses in the next half hour and I'll "be bold" and go ahead.) —Banzai! (talk) @ 03:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Typography and logography of Apple Computer, Inc.
 * 2) Font management on the Mac

OK, I’m doing it. Please don’t kill me. —Banzai! (talk) @ 04:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You claim to have split the article, but so far as I can tell you have merely deleted half of it. Where on earth has the rest gone? If you do not respond within the next five minutes I will revert all your edits.
 * (Actually, that was a lie: I'm going to give you time to respond before I do anything. But please bear in mind for future reference that half an hour is not nearly long enough to establish lack of opposition for a potentially contentious edit. Many editors only check Wikipedia once every few days, and even among the tiny minority who check every half hour, many will have been asleep when you posted your proposal. "Be bold, be bold, but not too bold...") &mdash; Haeleth Talk 14:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I guess you're probably right. :-P I noticed above at least two other people in addition to myself having the same thought, so I figured I'd just take care of it right then. In retrospect, it wouldn't have hurt to weight longer.
 * Sorry. The page about fonts on the Mac is at Fonts on the Mac. —Banzai! (talk) @ 17:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Fear not - I don't object, I was just worried because I couldn't find the rest of the article! Now I have the full picture, I agree that it's better this way. Thanks for clarifying that. &mdash; Haeleth Talk 21:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

You've fucking ruined this article. Where have the keyboard and other products sections gone? Would anyone object to be reverting to the August 4th version, minus the stuff about font management? --Dtcdthingy 22:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Right, I've done some reorganisation and the split between the two articles should now be in a much more sensible place. --Dtcdthingy 15:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Newton completed recognition.png
Image:Newton completed recognition.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Think Different image: wrong font weight.
I feel quite sure that Apple did not use that font in its Think Different campaign, if at all. I would have remembered those e's. See this image: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_04kZGR_ltmE/TN8_XBZhHoI/AAAAAAAAImA/sCGVkDxLb2w/s1600/John-Houston-Stainless-Rolex-OyterQuartz.jpg. The bolder weight in the example is a very different effect than the weight Apple used in its marketing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.212.231.87 (talk) 10:32, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Wrong caption
I cannot confirm to what extent Helvetica is used in advertising, but the iPhone 5S wordmark is definetely not set in Helvetica Neue Ultra Light. The caption in the article is wrong, the font used is some lighter weight of Apple Myriad. --93.135.152.219 (talk) 13:59, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Incomplete Helvetica
Isn't the older iOS font Helvetica, later Helvetica Neue? There isn't any iOS font coverage beyond Helvetica Neue Thin, which doesn't make any sense...correct me if I'm not seeing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.11.115.50 (talk) 21:27, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Images for lead paragraph?
I mildly fixed the issue for the lead paragraph being too short, but we need some pictures to summarise it. If anyone knows any good ones, let me know and add them in the article. Thanks! THetardis123 (talk) 10:06, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

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Is the Think Different image valid?
I noticed this on a whim, but the Think Different image used in the Apple Garamond section seems off. I noticed it's an SVG recreation of the original, but if you look at the "r" for example, it's not rounded at all. I thought that perhaps Apple had changed some of the design to be more angular, but this doesn't seem to be the case. It may be worth regenerating it, or using the original ad if it qualifies as fair use, if these letters are incorrect. Snaans (talk) 21:49, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
 * It seems to be a rather poor autotrace. I'll change it back to the original for now. ― novov t   c &#32; 01:48, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Ip
IPhone 180.243.14.103 (talk) 12:58, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Apple Garamond
The origin date of Apple Garamond is unclear. The article states that it was the typeface used since 1984, but that doesn’t track with the Apple Corporate Identity Guidelines published in 1985 which identifies only ITC Garamond (condensed to 80%). Stewf (talk) 08:08, 26 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Apple Garamond may not have been the official name until Bitstream delivered the custom fonts under that name in 1991 (as noted in the font file info). Stewf (talk) 08:09, 26 February 2023 (UTC)