Talk:UFC on Fuel TV: Franklin vs. Le

Fixing Vandalism
I'm putting the result in as I watch the event but I'm having an issue with a vandal changing my entries. How do I do a quick revert back without having to re-type it? --Willdawg111 (talk) 15:15, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * We aren't vandals. I already said in your talk page that the record boxes aren't the places for the scorecards, it's just to describe the method. In the event articles you should put the scorecards in the results section, not in the notes. To undo the edits of someone, just go to the page history and click "undo" (see WP:UNDO). But if your edits are considered disruptive, they'll be reverted. Poison Whiskey (talk) 16:04, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Cung Le's Nationality
Transcluded from Talk:UFC 148 by LlamaAl (talk) 21:01, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

This has been repeatedly changed back and forth between Vietnamese, South Vietnamese and American. I doubt many of those changing it will read the talk page first, but it can't hurt. Le's article calls him a Vietnamese American (an American of Vietnamese descent). This is attributed to his official website. Sherdog, perhaps the most commonly used reliable source for MMA Wiki articles, also says he is American in his profile. He was two when he left South Vietnam for the US. Soon after, South Vietnam ceased to exist. He is now 40. Wikipedia should use current information, not 1975 information. Fedor Emilianenko and Andrei Arlovski were born in the USSR, but their nationalities are now Russian and Belarusian, not Soviet. Same deal. If there is a reliable source saying Le is currently (South) Vietnamese, I'd like to see it. Till then, it's original research, and I will continue to revert it. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:41, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I always wondered about this and I agree completely. South Vietnam is NOT an independent recognized country and even if that is the case, if he naturalized American, then he should be displayed with the American flag besides his name. Also, there seems to be some other people raising similar issues on Cung Le's Talk Page. I think it should be consensus now that the flag displayed should be the American flag. --Loukinho (talk) 20:24, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

This has been disputed time and time again. Just because UFC chooses to use the place of birth in the tale of the tape, it doesn't mean that's his nationality. People who argue that seem to lose the concept of gaining citizenship through other means, including immigration and being a refugee. Not only has Cung Le already stated that he does not have Dual-Nationality, he has even competed for Team USA. His wife is also an American (USA). Just like many other Vietnamese-Americans who fled from Vietnam, he represents ONLY the South Vietnamese flag because that it's heritage. His UFC page even includes a quote from his labeling himself as an American. At the end of the day, I think the fighter's own description should be taken into account and the USA flag should be the right one PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 22:35, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with you in this subject and I think you put it very clearly in a better way than I could. Had a flag be used, in his case it would be the American one. However, it seems that the manual of style from the wikiproject mma discourages the use of all flags, which seem to serve no encyclopedic purpose. I wrote more details of the rationale on Cung Le's talk page. -- Lo uk ⟟n ho  ≟ 07:18, 8 July 2012 (UTC).

I dont think just because someones wife is American, that makes them not born where they were. Cung Le was not born in America, and that's what the UFC represents in the Tale of the Tape. So I think the Vietnamese flag is the correct flag and should remain. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 09:04, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Where did I say just because his wife is an American, that changes the place he was originally born in? My whole point was the fact that his wife is American can also justify that he no longer is a VIETNAMESE National. Do you even know what I'm saying? He was born in Saigon, Vietnam. That city no longer exists, so it makes sense to go with the alternate and his current nationality. PinoyFilAmPride (talk)06:42, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * First, he was born in South Vietnam. That country was conquered and assimilated in 1975, after he emigrated to the US. He NEVER lived in the Vietnam the current flag represents. No reliable sources say he is a citizen of either Vietnam, but several say he's American. This is a no-brainer, but if you honestly can't see that, I have no idea how to make it any simpler. Whether you actually understand you are wrong is irrelevant to the fact that consensus and reliable sources disagree with you. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:11, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Listen bro, I dont like you trying to call me stupid. You wanna no-brainer? Here: http://www.ufc.com/program Flip the pages on the UFC 148 book, there is a page that lists all the matches WITH FLAGS, tell me the flag you see next to Cung Le's name. Thats right, it's a Vietnam flag. Where's your facts? Thats right. Now stop changing it. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 00:37, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * ,, , , , all explicitly say he is an American. Your source requires synthesis and, as a primary source, is subject to WP:EXCEPTIONAL. And I'm not calling you stupid. I'm just explaining why this particular idea of yours is incorrect. Also look at the Infobox parameters. Nationality is "this person's current nationality - holds a valid passport from this country". InedibleHulk (talk) 03:07, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Per WP:ICON, Flag icons should never be used to indicate a person's place of birth, residence, or death, as flags imply citizenship and/or nationality. Many people born abroad due to traveling parents never become citizens of the countries in which they were born and do not claim such a nationality. Also, Flags should not be used to misrepresent the nationality of a historical figure, event, object, etc. Political boundaries change, often over the span of a biographical article subject's lifetime. Need more? In a case of reliably sourced renunciation of citizenship of a country, do not use the flag and name of that former country to indicate an article subject's nationality; if a flag is used at all, use that of the later nationality. Pretty clear. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:30, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Also keep in mind that Wikipedia is not UFC. Articles about UFC events do not need to follow UFC's conventions. They follow Wikipedia's. As you said earlier, the UFC uses flags to signify country of origin. And as I said before, Wikipedia does not. So the good news is we're both right. I hope we can leave it at that. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Well there should be an exception, because thats what the UFC lists him as. Wikipedia is about facts, you saying Cung Le was born in America isnt factual. And nationality isnt of concern here, it is birthplace that is of concern. So in this case, that nationality rule prevents wikipedia from being properly improved or maintained, so in this case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules

If you have an issue with that, then this can go up for a vote somewhere. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 06:29, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, Bleacher Report isnt a reliable source, all those RELIABLE articles say he's Vietnamese, that he is born in Vietnam, and so does the UFC event program, and the telecasts. Why this is even up for debate is baffling. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 06:39, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Go to his UFC profile, read the quote where he even quotes himself as being an American. What part of that don't you understand? Just because he was born in Vietnam does not mean he can't gain citizenship. Never hear of immigrating to another country? PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 06:57, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I just did, it says he's from Vietnam, it doesnt say he's born in America, did you watch his fights with Wanderlei Silva and Patrick Cote, does he have an American flag in the tale of the tape? Nope. Does he have it in the UFC event program, nope. He has a Vietnam flag. So I dont understand why there is a big debate or issue about this? Unless your eyes are lying to you. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 07:00, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The UFC profile also says he's from Saigon, Vietnam. Tell me where is SAIGON VIETNAM on the map? which flag currently represents Saigon Vietnam. You're asking me if my eyes are lying to me. So do you believe 100% that UFC tale of the tape can never make mistakes? Look at his shorts, which is what he has actually put on his twitter in the past...Tell me, what does his shorts actually represent more, the STAR or the Three flags? http://cdn0.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/4600369/20120707_mjr_su5_105_extra_large.jpg. If it's not a big DEBATE to you, then why are you debating? PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 07:05, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Your eyes clearly deceive you because you bring up the past two fights, so I show you this picture of Cung Le and his shorts. So tell me, what's on his shorts, is it the STAR or the Three stripes? http://cdn3.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/2307864/11_SilvaLe_07_large.jpg. Since you believe that the UFC never makes mistakes in their broadcasts or promos PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 07:14, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Also in this picture when he competed for TEAM USA, he's carrying two flags. Can you show me which flag REPRESENTS the current UFC flag that was used in the tale of the tape? Do you think that the UFC does not make mistakes in flag representation? http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/57/3a83a297fdeb7f1d02841979c9a0a4dc/l.jpg PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 07:23, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok ok ok, you're coming at me with alot of stuff here, one at a time please! Pinoy, buddy, you're getting delusional now, you're now trying to use someones shorts to say they were born in a certain country, shorts are irrelevant. If you wanna use that South Vietnam flag, well, I guess that could work, but I dont see an American flag anywhere, so that shouldnt be used. I'd say either Vietnam flag is correct, and this South Vietnam flag would be a good compromise. You also have no reliable source that states the UFC made a mistake, and I doubt they'd make a mistake 3 times in a row. Just saying. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 07:27, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Funny how come back with middle school rhetoric, "just sayin". What's next, cool story bro and u mad? Funny how his UFC profile also quotes him as being an AMERICAN. "I am the only American Wushu Kung Fu Athlete to have three World medals.". You clearly are the one being delusional and have no critical thinking skills. Sorry that you can't read more than one post. It must be very difficult for you in school reading 2-4 paragraphs right? Oh look straight from his website, I don't see the current flag that the UFC used anywhere there either. Please point it out to me where the current flag of Vietnam is shown ANYWHERE. http://cungle.com/photo-galleries/photo-gallery-fighting/ .... PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 07:33, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Dude, calm down alright? No need for "Battle Ground Mentality" on Wikipedia, Ok? Since I'm a guy who doesnt like to edit war, and wants cooler heads to prevail, so this doesnt have to go thru a silly vote. How about we use the South Vietnam flag, then both parties are happy in this silly debate. It seems ok with you right Pinoy? Thats the flag Cung Le has on his shorts. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 07:36, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Simple question, he was born in Saigon, Vietnam, which flag represents Saigon, Vietnam? His shorts will only give you a clue. Here let me give you a hint http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_South_Vietnam, just sayin. PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 07:39, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * All right chill out, chill out. I'm accepting this compromise. We're using the South Vietnam flag like you want. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 07:44, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You can't accept your own proposed compromise. You asked for a vote on my talk page, you asked for one here, and once you realize you'd be outvoted, you don't want to "go thru a silly vote". The rules of Wikipedia are clear, consensus is clear. But let's vote for the hell of it. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:57, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I accepted Pinoy's compromise to avoid the long voting process. JonnyBonesJones (talk) 07:59, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * And I accepted your proposed voting process to avoid you weaseling out of it. Polls are currently open. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:10, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

FYI to everyone, Cung Le knows about this and acknowledges that he's asked the UFC about this and even posted comments in his Facebook fan page section just recently. He's fully aware of this issue but the UFC brand is also trying to market itself which ultimately Cung Le's opinion has no barring. The main issue I have is that they are contradicting themselves. On his fighter profile, they acknowledge that he was born in SAIGON, Vietnam but use the current flag. However, if they were truly just using it for current status then they should state in his fighter profile that he was born in Ho Chi Minh City, which is the current city after the fall of Saigon. So again, clear contradiction by UFC's production team. PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 17:54, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Guys, there is a difference between Origin and Nationality. Cung Le's Nationality (his citizenship) is American (USA). His Origin (which is what the UFC uses) is Vietnamese. this is partially why the UFC will sometimes announce a fighter as (for example) as 'from Coconut Creek, Florida by way of Curatiba, Brazil' or similar. the question posed above is what is his nationality - that is American. if you want to state origin (if that is what is done by consensus on these pages and fighter pages) that's cool, but it should be the same for every fighter.Trok333 (talk) 01:24, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Simple, WP:BLP and MOS:FLAG applies here so basically leave off the flag until a reliable source (one that is respected for it's fact checking) can be quoted.  Mt  king  (edits)  20:52, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * UFC is not a RS, they have a vested interest (marketing) to distort the reality for there own financial needs. If you disagree feel free to take it to WP:RS/N. Mt  king  (edits)  22:18, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Opinion Poll. Which flag is proper for Cung Le? One vote only. No ranting.
Transcluded from Talk:UFC 148 by LlamaAl (talk) 21:02, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * USA, per everything I've said above. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:01, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * USA. However, I don't have a problem with the South Vietnamese flag since that's what Cung Le represents per his website, http://cungle.com/photo-galleries/photo-gallery-fighting/. PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 08:03, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Vietnam, per that is his where he was born which is what the UFC goes off in the telecasts, per the UFC telecasts, and per the UFC Event Program. But South Vietnam is also acceptable! JonnyBonesJones (talk) 08:05, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * USA,Le is an American citizen therefore he should have an American flagcon. Flagcons are used to denote a person's nationality not where someone was born.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.92.147 (talk) 02:33, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment One vote only! InedibleHulk (talk) 08:11, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Vietnam Per what the UFC website and tale of the tape say. 169.139.222.5 (talk) 22:20, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
 * USA. Cung is an American citizen, and that should be recognized with the respective flagicon.LlamaAl (talk) 22:51, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
 * USA. It's about nationality, not ethnicity. Yes, he's an ethnic vietnamese but he's an American national representing USA. jk2exp (talk) 20:50, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Vietnam - The UFC does flag icons by birthplace. If the country that a fighter was born in no longer exists, then the flag of the country that succeeded it is used. Example: Russian SFSR-born fighters use the Russian Federation's tricolor flag. (Note that this doesn't suggest any connotations of loyalty to a country; it just says that the fighter was born in a place that is now part of said country). Illegitimate Barrister (talk) 21:55, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Vietnam - Nam. Lost my leg in it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.161.132.66 (talk) 01:28, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Vietnam - He was born in Vietnam!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.92.233.97 (talk) 20:15, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect Flags used in UFC Promos
The UFC has actually used incorrect flags in their promos as well. See the past UFC 121 promo trailer between Brock Lesanr and Cain Velasquez. In this promo, they used a Mexican flag backdrop for Cain Velasquez, even though he's a born and raised U.S. citizen. So as you can see, even UFC makes mistakes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpyEoHHBKJk PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 07:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Transcluded from Talk:Cung Le" Wikiproject MMA states that In the column Opponent, do not add flag icons before the name of the opponent. Per MOS:ICON, the consensus in Wikipedia is that flag icons should not be used to emphasize nationality without good reason. Flag icons for sportspeople should only be used in a sporting sense, that is, only when they are representing a national squad/team or for representative nationality in a competition, not legal nationality. There is no international sport governing body in MMA and MMA events are mainly handled by individual promotions. As such, MMA fighters do not represent their countries in a sporting sense, so flag icons do not serve an encyclopedic purpose. Flag icons should not be added only because they look good, because aesthetics are in the eye of the beholder: one reader's harmless decoration may be another reader's distraction (from WP:MMABOX).

The use of flags on the infobox is also discouraged: ''Do not add flag icons in the infobox. Flag icons should not be used to emphasize nationality and they are redundant with a written location. They are unnecessarily distracting and give undue prominence to one field among many. For more details, please read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (icons).''

I hope this sheds some light to the subject. We should probably not be using them at all and in fact, I'm calling all of you out to help me remove them all! It really makes sense, since it doesn't really serve an encyclopedic purpose. The fighters are not representing a country afterall. -- Lo uk ⟟n ho  ≟ 07:13, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * "Flag icons for sportspeople should only be used in a sporting sense, that is, only when they are representing a national squad/team or for representative nationality in a competition, not legal nationality." Going by that logic then the dispute should be settled and Cung Le should be represented by a USA flag. Per Cung Le's official UFC profile and proof that he's competed for Team USA:

http://www.ufc.com/fighter/Cung-Le

- 1999 Art of War Light Heavyweight Champion (China vs. USA) Honolulu, HI,1999 ISKA Light Heavyweight Sanshou Champion San Jose, CA, 1998 ISKA Light Cruzer weight Champion San Jose, CA,1998 Shidokan Team USA Champion Chicago, IL (Tournament Champion)

- '''Three time Bronze Medalist in the Wushu World Championships. I am the only American Wushu Kung Fu Athlete to have three World medals.''' I also was California Junior State Champion (158 lbs) and AAU Freestyle and Greco Roman National Champion (163 lbs). Also, California State High School Wrestling All-American.

And like I've previously stated, UFC uses flags for different reasons including Marketing. Take one of the Promos for UFC 121 for example. Cain Velasquez vs Brock Lesnar promo also sparked controversy as it clearly showed Cain with a flag of Mexico, even though he's not a Mexican National nor has he ever REPRESENTED Mexico at any sporting event, regardless of MMA or not. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpyEoHHBKJk PinoyFilAmPride (talk) 20:07, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Redirect?
What's going on here? Page is redirected by Mtking, then someone blocks the page from edits. How can you just redirect/delete the page without taking it up for discussion first? Oskar Liljeblad (talk) 20:52, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

What's going on here? This seems like a some bogus unilateral vandalism. Please discuss before destroying the content. Knownunknownwikipedian (talk) 14:38, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

The quest to delete MMA from WP has returned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.245.32.2 (talk) 15:32, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 November 2012
Mtking is attempting to circumceed the AfD process by redirecting pages to a list file. He is intentionally trying to bypass the site's normal policy for such matters. The article should be opened for edit to revert to the one before Mtking redirected the page. If he wants it to be redirected and has a problem with the article's qualifications for Wikipedia, he should nominate it for deletion like has been the norm for over a decade.

Luchuslu (talk) 22:16, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I have restored the article and lowered the protection. The correct next course of action would be AfD if Mtking wishes to pursue this. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:50, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Lacks non-routine sourcing from reliable sources
This event lacks non-routine and fails the WP:NOT policy, please add sources from WP:RS showing non-routine coverage.

Flags
I removed the flags out of this article per  MOSFLAGS. I don't belive they should go back in. (But that's just my two cents, obvioulsy anyone can edit otherwise  :) )  KoshVorlon . We are all Kosh ...  21:09, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Cung Le Flag
There are a number of RS out there that list Cung Le as an American. Mt king (edits) 02:21, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 September 2020
Simple typo - update 'vs' to 'vs.' in the Thiago Silva fight 108.51.139.144 (talk) 22:12, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Dylsss (talk) 22:40, 10 September 2020 (UTC)