Talk:Uilleann pipes

Youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGhM6MueWbE

I uploaded this video for someone else of R L Mealy. I know almost nothing about uilleann piping, but apparently Mealy was an important piper in the 1920s. If someone with more knowledge than I wants to post this link feel free. Glennwalsh (talk) 08:44, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

the article says that flat pipes were made to fit the generation whistles. as far as i am aware, the flat pipes were the original tunings. the d set is a more modern invention. here is a quote: " In the older sets the pitch is usually a tone, sometimes more, below concert pitch. Among players such pipes are known as ‘flat sets’. " it is from http://www.pipers.ie/home/Resources_History%20Pipes.htm - —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daiv (talk • contribs) 05:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC) It looks as though this 68.251.whatever chap is persisting in adding some not-very-humorous, poorly-written and -formatted, ungrammatical, and downright annoying paragraphs to an otherwise sensibly-written article. These are the same changes that he or she has had removed previously, and seem to be concerned generally with removing links between Uilleann pipes and Bagpipes and with poking fun at the difficulty of tuning the pipes.

How is Uilleann pronounced? silsor 22:49, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * ill-unn or ill-enn. J OHN C OLLISON | (Ludraman) 23:40, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The mp3 is not Uilleann pipes
The mp3 provided at the bottom is a synthesizer or midi composition. It is not a recording of actual Uilleann pipes. Should it be removed?

The sound samples used to compose the sample are in fact individual recordings of actual Uilleann Pipes... A method very commonly used today for music composition... --Tait 03:44, 26 August 2005 (UTC) -

That is the musical equivalent of an inflatable sheep. (That is a joke. Levity is part of the tradition.) Tastes differ. If you would like, I can supply you with a sample from my own set of pipes, which would end any controversy on this matter. For my money, if you have a page on uilleann pipes, then you should have real uilleann pipes as a sound sample. Who knows, it might even improve the score the page has received. Shall we try? Renglish (talk) 02:27, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

The drones and chanter sound like sampled Uilleann pipes, but the regulators sound more like strings; they don't sound like any regulators I've ever heard. -Aaronimo

Other Uilleann pipes article
There is another article on wikipedia about the Uilleann pipes at Uilleann. I'm going to redirect it here, as this article contains much more information in more detail. There are a couple of facts in the former article that may be able to be merged here. The original article is here. Graham/pianoman87 talk 11:54, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Development from the pastoral pipe
I have looked at this web site for possible origins of the Uilleann pipes. They could have originated from the Pastoral pipes, played in Scotland during the 1700/1800s. Or both instruments could have developed roughly around the same time. For more information check out this site.

http://www.bcpipes.com/pipes.html#anchor377700


 * Also check out http://www.greylarsen.com/store/samples/essguide_chap1-2.pdf

user: Celtic Harper 01:54, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I've put links to both websites in this section, as one was removed (probably accidentally). I also added the indent. My apologies for referring to that edit as linkspam earlier - it seems to be a useful article. Graham talk 14:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Quite frankly, I don't trust these internet sites as a true source. Many of these American sites are commercial, and just get the facts wrong.  BTW, I did a Google, pastoral pipes=627 and uilleann pipes=304,000.  Are the Pastoral pipes a new handy invention of history.  Any genuine experts out there? 83.70.252.162 23:07, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I would say the folk selling pipes generally know more (though not always) than the punters, myself, but never mind. Pastoral pipes are very definitely real (see, for example, http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14 ) and look for the music page.  They haven't been played very much for the last couple of hundred years, but they are a different kind of bagpipe, though closely related to the Uilleann.  They had a footjoint to play a low leading note, and the common speculation is that someone took it off and rested the rest of their chanter on the knee, and so the Uilleann pipe was born Calum 11:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the Pastoral pipes did exist and they were made in Dublin in the early 1700's. Geoghegan, the Dublin pastoral pipe player from around this time is most likely to be the same Geoghegan who wrote the first book on bagpiping ever, Geoghegan's Compleat Tutor. Does it need its own page, don't think so. 86.42.154.52 15:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Geoghegans Complete tutor was published in London in 1745, There is an older bagpipe tune book by William Dixon published in 1733 for the Lowland Border pipes from the Anglo-Scottish border area. As far as I can see its the oldest, but there my be an older one. User:Celtic Harper 16:40, 03 November 2006 (UTC).

William Dixon's manuscript was not published until Matt Seattle edited and published it in 1995as *The Master Piper*. I have a copy of the second edition. 68.71.8.78 (talk) 01:33, 20 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The oldest one is Hanrahan's melodies, c1694, national archieves Dublin. 86.42.131.109 23:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Too late, the already is a Pastoral pipes article. Where exactly they were invented is orobably going to be speculation for all time to come;  however, they were manufactured in Ireland, Scotland, and London.  The article could do with some work but is not the worst example of an article by any means. Calum 20:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Calum, self praise is no praise, is that your work? <,^,> 86.42.134.25 23:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Nope, never even knew that page existed until I googled for 'Pastoral pipes'....Calum 16:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Contradictory?
The introduction to this article says that the chanter is chromatic with all sharps and flats, but the Chanter section says that it isn't. Which is correct? Mawich (talk) 09:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * An unkeyed chanter is diatonic, with a few chromatic notes (specifically, it's in D major and can also play a C natural, a sort of E flat, and an F natural can be half-holed). You can add any number of keys up to that sufficient to produce a fully chromatic chanter.  Calum (talk) 12:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I find it very hard to understand. D major would seem to make the Dorian mode impossible, or at best awkward, whereas we assume it is pretty fundamental to Irish music. FangoFuficius (talk) 10:18, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Revert
Revision of references, because they don't meet wikipedia standards. Also the theory of the pipes being invented by indigenous Irish pipes due to the Elizabethan ban on marching instruments has also been disproved. This was invented by Grattan Flood, and his use of the word illen as an older name. The union pipes in a written Irish context first appeared in 1760’s more than 100 years after the ban on marching instruments. As the pipes originally had a low C# footjoint and were played on stage in a standing position the theory is disproved. The evolution of the Union and Uilleann pipes was also driven by competition between makes; throughout the late 18th and early 19th century from Ireland, Scotland and England. Your quote for the Uilleann word for elbow can be found lower down the article. Playing the chanter on the knee was used to obtain a closed-end chanter that was already familiar in the smallpipes played on the Anglo/Scottish border and increase the dynamics of the open instrument. If you are interested in the history and development of the instrument, read;

P Roberts 'Unravelling the History of the Uilleann Pipes', Common Stock. vol no2 pp11-16 (1984) Brian. E. McCandless. “The Pastoral Bagpipe” Iris na bPiobairi (The pipers review) 17 (Spring 1998), 2: p. 19-28. Celtic Harper (talk) 09:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Origin of the name "Uileann Pipes"
I'm almost definite that the term "uilleann pipes" was actually derived from how it is played. It is an Irish instrument and the Gaelic word for elbow is "uillinn" pronounced the same. The name is a derivative of this word, being an instrument played with the elbow. This link supports what I've been taught in school. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.147.173.37 (talk) 16:37, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Tried to add references but they blank the page
Tried to add these references but they dont add and the page halves. H. Cheape. The Union Pipe of Scotland and Ireland: A Shared Tradition. Lecture at the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland (2007).

G. Woolf ‘Chanter Design and Construction Methods of the early Makers’, Sean Reid Society Journal v2 no 4 (2002). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Celtic Harper (talk • contribs) 22:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Ideas for improvement
This article is a good start, but it could use a lot of work. I just went through and made a few changes, but there's so much more I can think of that could be done!

1. The intro needs to be more succinct and just give a general overall picture of the pipes and their significance. As it is now, it gets into minor details (like some players being able to talk/sing while playing).

2. I don't think that the majority of the article should be organized, as it currently is, by a "practice set," "half set," "full set" progression. That makes it seem like an instructional thing for aspriring pipers, not an encyclopedia entry. Also, it makes the "chanter" section seem out of place, since it's listed as a "variation" of the instrument (which doesn't make sense) and there are no individual sections for the other parts of the instrument. Instead, the detailed description of the pipes as an instrument could be organized by its different elements - chanter, bag, bellows, drones, regulators (after a general description of how it works as a whole, of course). After that, there could still be a section (much shorter and less emphasized) about the practice/half/full set thing - but people looking for a general description of the uilleann pipes should get a description of the pipes in their full form, first and foremost. Then the section can be broken down into more detailed descriptions of each component. The practice/half/full system doesn't make sense as a way to frame the whole picture.

3. There are some dodgy/unverifiable statements - mostly statements that sound biased in favor of the uilleann pipes or are otherwise subjective. Like, there were some sentences to the effect of 'beginners usually play practice sets for about a year and then move on to half sets' (I wouldn't go so far as to say that usually happens) and 'the uilleann pipes are really hard to play,' stuff like that that isn't exactly true - I have deleted or modified some of those already.

4. We could use a section on the significance of the uilleann pipes in today's musical world - in traditional playing and the pop stuff as well - Riverdance, Braveheart, Flogging Molly/Dropkick Murphys-type bands, Afro Celt Sound System, etc.

5. I think we could also use a short section on what the uilleann piping community is like... pipers' clubs, pipes being custom made, sessions and tionols, etc. Mentioning the tin whistle connection would also be good, since virtually all uilleann pipers also play whistle.

6. Oh, and how about the existence of left-handed sets? A minor point, but a good one to mention I think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.42.64.246 (talk) 21:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Chanter reed-making difficulty is overstated
I was amused to read the description of chanter reed making, as I am two days past a tutorial on that very subject. In the space of 45 minutes, with direction, I was able to select a piece of cane, cut it to length, split it to the correct size, carve the desired profile and sand it to the correct contour. It was fitted to the staple, wound with waxed thread and a bridle attached. Basically the entire process was completed with little difficulty using modest hand tools (sanding block, sandpaper, box-cutter). There was a winding mandrel available to wind the waxed thread onto the assembled staple and reeds, but this also could have been done with the hands alone. The assembled reed was tested and shaved with a box knife to thin it, all work done above the bridle. In less than an hour, it was ready to be placed in a chanter, although we like to let them sit for a few days and then install them. I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that it's not that difficult of a task, it just that one will have better luck if one is shown how it's done by an experienced reed maker. 75.101.94.89 (talk) 18:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, the basics of making something that looks like a reed is simple enough. Making your reed so that all the notes in both octaves are stable and in tune in your particular chanter, without any need for rushes or taping tone holes? Making it so that your chanter plays easily, so that you do not need to stand on the bag with your full body weight to drive it into the second octave? Making it so that it is stable in the second octave, and doesn't fall back into the first even when proper pressure is being applied to the bag? Making it so that the "hard D" is easy (or even possible) to obtain? Making it so that your chanter winds up with a sweet and mellow tone? Making it so that it remains relatively stable in different temperature and humidity environments (ok, so even the experts have trouble with that)? These are the things that separate an expert reedmaker from everyone else. If anything, the author understated the difficulty of producing a good quality, playable reed by leaving out most of these details. Oh no, they don't call the Uilleann chanter reed "the piper's despair" for nothing...--96.251.95.54 (talk) 01:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Sod's law states that OP made a perfect reed first time, will never need another, and will spend the rest of his life telling everyone he doesn't understand how they find it so difficult. Calum (talk) 20:17, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

There is a differance between "professionally" made reeds and reeds made by "gentlemen" reedmakers.(the old term for amatures). Reedmakers, who may be pipemakers that make a part of their livelyhood producing good reeds, have solved many of the problems associated with their manufacture. This has been achieved by good research and development. This is an expensive undertaking and can result in reedmakers "keeping things to themselve" so this information may not be generally known. All I can say is that many of the problems that existed 40 years ago have modern solutions, this is traditional. At one time reeds were made that could only work in one chanter and were on the edge of chaos, so that slight changes in temperature and humidity would result in them not playing. How do we change the myth that UP chanter reeds are difficult to manufacture and dificult to manage in changing conditions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Minstrel85 (talk • contribs) 09:26, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the thing to remember in reedmaking is that there are going to be some failures along the way. It is much more difficult to play the pipes than it is to make the reeds for *me*. It isn't rocket science. I have made several chanter reeds in the last six months that play well all the way up to the high C, are stable, don't collapse. Adjusting the reeds to compensate for changes in humidity and temperature involve little more than making minute (that's my-NEWT, not minute) changes to the bridle position and pressure and then adjusting the depth of the reed in the seat by adjusting the waxed thread wrapping on the staple tip. On all of the reeds I've made, there is a "sweet spot" where the lips are open a fraction of a millimeter, and the upper octave becomes easy to play, the lower octave is not hard to play and both octaves are reasonably tempered, which is to say, "correct". Changes in humidity can alter this sub-millimeter lip opening, and dramatically affect reed playability. So you have to be able to compensate for it. It's not something you'd send the reed back to the maker to repair, since it isn't broken. Anyway, there are going to be some failures. You want to identify them early and discard a reed or slip that will be problematic later. Don't hesitate to put the reed aside and work on another, rather than spending 10 hours trying to fix a reed that is just going to have a short life and be difficult to play. And don't take yourself so freaking seriously. This is supposed to be fun music, fun to make and fun to play. If it isn't, then get a bassoon, you loon!Renglish (talk) 19:46, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

vPipes synth uilleann pipes
In the process of trying to find a way to get hold of some kind of uilleann pipes I've just stumbled on vPipes, which is an electronic uilleann/smallpipe. Could this be mentioned without breaching wikipedia's rules about advertising (which I know nothing about)? Potentially this is a noteworthy development of the instrument. They have a website, which is the product name .com Dyakson (talk) 19:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Worthy of a mention, I suppose, though I'd also note they aren't the first experiment in this vein, and none of the others have taken off seriously either. I think there is an article on electronic pipes, if it hasn't been clobbered by the Not Notable crowd. Calum (talk) 09:29, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Etymology
POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.138.149 (talk) 00:29, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Please explain. And you are currently edit warring.  Discuss your concerns here.   Corvus cornix  talk  00:32, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Im sorry but how have these sources been verified? I have never heard these theories put forward. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.138.149 (talk) 00:41, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The section you keep removing has sources.   Corvus cornix  talk  00:46, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Yet has this source been vertified. As a player I have never heard this history. Sees very POV of the editor that made the edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.138.149 (talk) 00:51, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't just remove information. Can you find evidence that what is there is incorrect?   Corvus cornix  talk  00:55, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I have asked for input at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Irish_music. Corvus cornix talk  00:57, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

That makes no senses. I can add with no verification but to remove I must provide sources?
 * Actually, no, you need to add with sources, as well. Let's let others weigh in here.   Corvus cornix  talk  01:05, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

But who verifies the sources, references does not stand up if they are not credited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.138.149 (talk) 01:10, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That the name originates from 'Union pipes' sounds a bit suspect. Could we have a quote from the text in question that directly supports the inference? BTW I don't agree with the manner the IP is going about this, which seems provocative, if not downright disruptive. And could eds. please indent the discussion correctly? RashersTierney (talk) 01:19, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The indents look fine to me.  Corvus cornix  talk  02:03, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Whatever. Hardly the main point, and you did ask for outside comment. RashersTierney (talk) 03:13, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually the term Union was used throughout the 19th century I suggest you look at the chapter of Hugh Cheaps book Bagpipes: A National Collection of a National Instrumen first published in 2008 and also [] describes the early usage of the pipes as being called Union pipes. The term Uillean was only invented in 1904 by Gratton Flood to make the instrument sound less British and more Irish as the tradition had almost died out in britain and the Irish took the instrument as their own. You can see the same Irish lable on other instruments like the Irish flute and Tin Whistle.Yaniukku (talk) 14:46, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Standing up?
" ... The uilleann pipes are often played indoors, and are almost always played sitting down ...  I have never seen - or even heard - of the pipes being played standing up. I suppose a half-set might be, if one were determined, but one couldn't then use one's thigh against the end of the chanter. Any thoughts on this sentence? TreacherousWays (talk) 18:17, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I expect it was put that way for the benefit of readers more familiar with other types of pipes, usually played standing. The fact that they can't (easily) be played this way is significant, and will probably be news to the casual reader. How do you suggest modifying? RashersTierney (talk) 18:22, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, "In contrast to the more-widely-known bagpipes, the uilleann pipes are typically played indoors and always played while seated." and I'll see if I can't find a picture of someone playing; perhaps a side-by-side of the two instruments to better highlight the similarities and differences. TreacherousWays (talk) 15:12, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Or perhaps 'in contrast to the bagpipes etc.' - avoids suppositions - and a pic showing the two side by side would be great. RashersTierney (talk) 15:29, 20 January 2012 (UTC) RashersTierney (talk) 15:29, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

My grandfather, his brother and their father all played the Uilleann pipes standing up. In fact I think they were the only people capable of playing the Uilleann pipes whilst standing. Please see (1) https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7032/6515379939_b0410db653.jpg or (2)http://www.ucd.ie/irishfolklore/en/t4cms/johnny-doran-500-754.jpg. If you research Johnny or Felix Doran the pipers you will see this was taught to them by their Father, Johnny Doran Snr. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.82.228 (talk) 17:30, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Copyright claims (2014)
Hi copyright investigators.

I did not flag the article for copyright, but I did some looking into it. I believe the original author was Breandán Breathnach from an essay anthologized in 1986's The Man and His Music. While some pieces may be in violation, it appears that this article has grown organically around the potentially violating bits over the last 8 years. I've requested a complete copy through interlibrary loan and will update this page when I find anything out.

Reve (talk) 07:41, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

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