Talk:Un hombre solo

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Requested move 20 December 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: MOVED. There is a general agreement here that WP:NCCAPS#Works of art guides towards following the language of the work when English-language sources are inconsistent, thus MOS:FOREIGNTITLE is the preferred guideline. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:09, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Un Hombre Solo → Un hombre solo – Spanish capitalization rules. The album is Spanish, its title is in Spanish. See MOS:FOREIGNTITLE: "Retain the style of the original for modern works". (Actually, I'm requesting to revert an undiscussed move: [1].) Moscow Connection (talk) 06:16, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink).  — Amakuru (talk) 10:41, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I initially carried this move out, but this morning the talk page was moved back by Magiciandude, citing WP:NCCAPS#Works of art, which user Magiciandude feels overrides the MOS:FOREIGNTITLE. There may be some merit in this claim, since as far as I can tell from a Google search, most English sources do seem to call this "Un Hombre Solo". I have therefore reverted my move, to put it back to the long term title, and listing it as a move request rather than uncontroversial. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 10:41, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. "WP:NCCAPS#Works of art" can't be applied cause it's obvious that English-language sources won't be consistent. And they in fact aren't. Here are a couple examples of books that say "Un hombre solo": [2], [3].
    Therefore MOS:FOREIGNTITLE applies.
    Also, look at this: "Wikipedia:Manual of Style/France and French-related#Capitalization". As you can see, someone wrote a special rule for French titles. It's just that no one did the same for Spanish ones. --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:15, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Our various conventions aren't entirely consistent with the MOS on this, but the naming convention that reads usually the capitalization found in English-language reliable sources is recommended, but when such sources use different capitalizations there is some leaning towards the capitalization rules valid for the language of the creator should be the guide in this case IMO (and otherwise the convention should itself be corrected). Andrewa (talk) 18:51, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 30 December 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. As this is a review of a recently-closed discussion, I took into account the arguments made at the previous discussion as well. Across both of these discussions, I find a consensus that we should follow the Spanish-language capitalization rules, as the title is in Spanish. If this were a borrowed term we could follow the English rules, but it is not. If sources consistently used different rules we would follow them, but there doesn't appear to be consistency among sources either. The consensus arrived at the previous discussion stands.

As a side note, can some of the sources used in this discussion be put into the article? I tried to see what the sources given in the article used, but there aren't any. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bradv 17:58, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Un hombre solo → Un Hombre Solo – I somehow missed the previous RM discussion and see it was moved back. Moscow Connection cited two books that used its proper capitalization. However, per WP:UE, articles are to use whatever most English-language souces use. Moscow Connection used two Google Books sources, but Allmusic, Billboard, Amazon has it as "Un Hombre Solo". MOS:FOREIGNTITLE does not contravene what WP:UE says. EDIT: And here's some more from Google Books: [4], Los Angeles Times, [5], Billboard physical magazine, [6]. As you can see, most English-language reliable sources uses the term "Un Hombre Solo", not "Un Hombre Solo". So per WP:UE, the article should moved back to "Un Hombre Solo" per said policy. Erick (talk) 16:47, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. WP:UE cited by the nominator is WP:TRANSLITERATE, it's about transiteration and doesn't say a thing about capitalization.
    MOS:FOREIGNTITLE is the only guideline related to capitalization of Spanish titles right now. It is part of the English Wikipedia's Manual of Style.
    Actually, the more I look at it, the more strongly I oppose the move. Cause the nominator's rationale if applied to the whole English Wikipedia would result in different capitalization for different Spanish-language music releases. Does Wikipedia need articles scattered all over the place, some with capital letters, some without? No, instead it needs something like this: "Wikipedia:Manual of Style/France and French-related#Capitalization" (only for Spanish titles).
    Wikipedia is already a mess and doesn't need this random article moved to a random title that does not comply with the Spanish grammar rules. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:26, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Moscow Connection: No, WP:UE clearly states the article title should be determined by what English-language sources says and its supplemented by WP:COMMONNAME. Also, the usage of capitalization of foreign-language titles has been discussed several, times, before. The consensus in those discussion was the capitalization found in most English-language reliable sources are the ones that should be applied. It also does not change the fact that the majority of the English-language reliable sources uses "Un Hombre Solo", not "Un hombre solo", so both WP:UE and WP:COMMONNAME applies. here. EDIT: Also the guideline you listed is not supplemented by either policy I mentioned. Nowhere does it say it has to apply to article titles as well. Erick (talk) 18:00, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support when I looked at this before, when deciding whether to revert the tehcnical request I'd previously carried out, my findings did concur with the nominator's rationale. The English title case rendition is considerably more common in English reliable sources, therefore we should use that. MOS:FOREIGNTITLE WP:NCCAPS#Works of art only recommends using the native (Spanish) way of capitalising the title if there is no clear winner in English sources.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:33, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Amakuru: as brought up MOS:FOREIGNTITLE which is contravened by both WP:UE and WP:COMMONNAME. Erick (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Moscow Connection: From WP:COMMONNAME: "Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the criteria listed above." Did you read the previous discussions that I wikilinked above? All of them dealt with foreign-language titles of works of art and the consensus was that the capitalization found in most English-language reliable sources is the one that should be used. And as I mentioned, MOS:FOREIGNTITLES does not deal with article titles. I listed at least seven (and could probably find more I had time) that has the album's titled as "Un Hombre Solo" whereas you only listed two English-language sources that lists the album's name as "Un hombre solo". WP:NAME states the name found in most English-language sources is the one that should be used. Erick (talk) 18:49, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My interpretation of the WP:COMMONNAME policy is that it includes everything. That's how I generally apply it. This includes spellings, diacritics, capitalisations and choosing between the various naming options. It's common sense, really. If a large majority of sources write things a certain way, then who are we to do something different? The whole point of WP is we reflect the world as it is, not as we think it should be. And most guidelines, such as those found at WP:NCCAPS, explicitly suggest we follow sources as well. The only time we need more specific style guidelines *when selecting titles* (which is a different excercise from determining style within articles) is when common usage is not clear. In that instance we defer either to our general house style rules, or to specific guidelines covering specific topics.  — Amakuru (talk) 19:05, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Chicago Manual of Style. Read "Wikipedia:Manual of Style/France and French-related#Capitalization", the proposed change goes against the Chicago Manual of Style. (Not only against the Spanish grammar rules as I already noted earlier.)
    Wikipedia is supposed to be a serious site and I don't understand how renaming this random article against Spanish grammar and against the respected manual of style can be a step towards building an encyclopedia.
    This discussion is a waste of time. Someone who really cares should write a proper manual of style for Spanish-related things. Instead of playing games at WP:RM. --Moscow Connection (talk) 19:00, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Moscow Connection: Ok, first of all, I don't care for your snide remark. I'm citing a policy which, regardless whether you find it a "waste of time" or not, does not change the fact that is still a policy in Wikipedia. And that same policy states that the naming should be based on what most English-language reliable sources use. You only provided two English-language sources that cites it being called "Un hombre solo" in contrast to the majority of other English-language reliable sources that calls it "Un Hombre Solo" (which would be the sources I listed above) Second, you still have not answered my question, did you not read the previous discussions that I linked above that dealt with foreign-language titles where the consensus? Because this has been discussed several times before. Third, that guideline you showed still does not contravene WP:NAME. Erick (talk) 19:07, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) @Magiciandude: By the way, in your original rationale [7] (as I first saw it) you used Amazon (which is not a reliable source) and the Billboard website [8] (which uses absolutely random capitalization). (It is only a happy coincidence that this particular title doesn't have prepositions or articles in the middle. Cause the Billboard "Artist > Charts" section usually has Every Single Word Capitalized, sometimes With random Words In lowercase.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 19:14, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Moscow Connection: Ok, I can admit to Amazon and Billboard (the online datebase anyway) not that reliable. Fair enough. But you still have at least six other English-language reliable sources (including this one that I just found) that calls it "Un Hombre Solo". WP:NAME clearly states that the article title should follow what most English-language reliable sources use. MOS:FOREIGNTITLES does not deal with article titles and its not supplemented by WP:NAME. A quick glance at Google Books made me found at least four more sources that calls it "Un Hombre Solo". Until you can show me the majority of English-language reliable sources calling it "Un hombre solo", the article should be renamed back to "Un Hombre Solo" as per WP:NAME. Erick (talk) 19:42, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As an aside, I noted today's WP:TFA on the main page with interest. No Me Queda Más seems to be a similar sort of case. I'm not sure anyone's suggested downcasing that one.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:48, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, it only makes sense to be adopting Spanglish capitals on US Latin music where sources actually use them. Correct Spanish here immediately tells the reader this is a European song/album etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:32, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@In ictu oculi: And what policy/guideline backs that up? I already listed numerous English-language reliable sources that lists it as "Un Hombre Solo". It doesn't matter if it's European or not, WP:NAME still applies. Erick (talk) 23:24, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Erick. The problem as WP:RS says is sources be reliable for the purpose used. Billboard, for example, is reliable for chart placings, but not reliable for Spanish - most Billboard mentions don't even get the accents right, much less capitalization. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:27, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) @In ictu oculi:, but I didn't just use Billboard. Look at the number of sources I provided on my sources plus the references I've added in response to Moscow Connections's comments. Moscow Connections only showed two English-language sources that has it as "Un hombre solo" in contrast to the seven or so sources that has it as "Un Hombre Solo". Per WP:NAME, the name and spelling of the article (applies to foreign-language titles as well) are to follow how most English-language reliable sources has it. So far, neither you nor Moscow Connections has shown otherwise. I'm sorry if I'm coming off as brash, but I'm sick and tired of this native capitalization nonsense. Erick (talk) 23:32, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What does Continuum Encyclopedia of Popular Music of the World do with Spanish titles? In ictu oculi (talk) 23:38, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I quote WP:UE, "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage" and most English-language reliable sources has it as "Un Hombre Solo". Show me where the majority of English-language reliable sources has it as "Un hombre solo" and I'll drop the RM. EDIT: That book you brought up deals with music, so it's very relevant to this article. Erick (talk) 23:42, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
1. WP:UE also says: "If there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject". All you found are a few passing mentions, you can't draw any conclusions from that. It's just a Spanish album, it wasn't of any interest to the mainstream American media. If we were talking about Julio Iglesias himself, with millions and millions of mentions in the media over the last 40 years, that would be when WP:UE would work. Or if it were some unconventional band's name, then we would expect some thinking from Los Angeles Times writers. In this case they probably capitalized every word and didn't think twice about it.
2. And even in the aforementioned case... I'm sure that even if Julio Iglesias were always referred to as "JuLiO IgLeSiAs", Wikipedia would still have his article at the current title. Cause there is also WP:MOS, and it is the main guideline responsible for capitalization. In our particular case, it says to capitalize the album's title as it is capitalized in the original language. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:41, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I gave you nearly ten English-language sources that has it as "Un Hombre Solo", where as you only provided two English-language sources that lists it as "Un hombre solo". That's hardly a few sources... Whether or not it's passing mentions it's irreverent, because it does not change the fact that they are reliable sources. That's what WP:UE has always been about. One of the fundamental pillars of Wikipedia is that we go by what reliable sources say, not what you think is right. Verifiability, not truth. EDIT: The onus is on you to show that majority of English-language sources as it as "Un hombre solo" or just as much as the sources that I provided. EDIT 3: It seems we've been running around in circles. I think it would be helpful if we have more insight from an outsider's perspective. Erick (talk) 20:30, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've looked at all the sources once again, and what I see is... Most of the sources you have found are inconsistent in what concerns capitalization: "Didn't We Almost Have It all" [9]. "Entre en cielo y el infierno" [10], "Et L'amour Créa La Femme" [11] (an example from AllMusic), "Live At the Greek Theatre" ([12], Billboard), "LO MEJOR DE TU VIDA" ([13], Billboard), "Gozar La Vida", "Corazon De Papel" ([14], Billboard), "Jazz From Hell" [15] or capitalize every word: "Todos Los Dias Un Dia", "Begin The Beguine" [16], "Is There Love In Space" [17].
As I've already said, it is only a happy coincidence that this particular title doesn't have prepositions or articles in the middle, or (according to your own argumentation) you would have to vote for renaming this article to something like "Begin The Beguine", "Corazon De Papel", "Is There Love In Space". --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:04, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Except WP:UE is explicitly for foreign-language titles, not English-language titles, so Begin The Beguine" and "Is There Love In Space" doesn't cut it. Further, I'm not arguing whether they consistent with their spelling or not, I'm saying that's how most English-language sources has "Un Hombre Solo" and that's how it should be. If barely any English-language source existed, then that would be one thing, but it's not. I'm still waiting for you to how other English-language sources that has the album as "Un hombre solo" by the way. EDIT: At this point, I'd rather get more input from others. Erick (talk) 22:22, 3 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think you know that we have already found all of the mentions in reliable sources there were to find on the Internet. There are very few. (I've searched on Google and I even couldn't find some of those that you had found.)
By the way, I'm now on the Billboard website, and come on, almost all the song titles have every word capitalized [18]: "I Really Don't Want To Know/There Goes My Everything", "Frankie And Johnny" (and there are also "Hurt/for The Heart", "Moody Blue/she Thinks I Still Care".) --Moscow Connection (talk) 19:18, 4 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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