Talk:Ungoliant

Untitled
Ungoliant is a very controversial subject. Many people are unsure of what to call her, but in my opinion she cannot be a Maia or any kind of Ainur. Melkor himself fears her. Ungoliant may be darkness incarnate, or another proposition I have put forth both on Council of Elrond and now here. She may be Hades/Sheol incarnate. Many people will be unfamiliar with this term. They may recognize Hades from Greek mythology, but this is a different Hades. It is well known that Tolkien was a Christian. Though his books were not "Christian" books many of the principles he personally believed in worked their way into the book (such as the need for a god of Creation, the polarity of good and evil, etc.) Hades or Sheol is an anthropomorphized object in the Christian Bible. In English translations she is commonly referred to as "the grave." Proverbs 30:15b-16 NIV says, "'There are three things that are never satisfied, four that never say, "Enough!": Sheol, the barren womb, land, which is never satisfied with water, and fire, which never says, "Enough!"'" Notice, it list Sheol at the top of the list of things that are never satisfied. This reminds me so much of Ungoliant. Revelation 6:8 NIV says, "I looked, there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth." One translation says that Hades crawls behind Death. And another says that she devours everything that Death slays. These parts of the Bible and many others make Sheol/Hades appear very much like Ungoliant in my mind. In fact, one passage pairs up Sheol with the Devil. This reminds of the part of the Silmarillion in which Ungoliant and Melkor are teamed together slaying the inhabitants of Arda. I doubt Tolkien was using Ungoliant as a symbol of Sheol/Hades, because Tolkien despised allegory. I choose rather to believe Ungoliant was Sheol incarnate.

--Merond e 12:08, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll challenge that because in Morgoth's Ring Morgoth is obviously not afraid of her until the very end. She is weak before him and starving until she finally devours the light of the two trees (absorbing some of the powers of the valar perhaps). He also refers to her as an old servant of his which says she probably was a fallen maiar rather than anything greater. --24.60.168.187 19:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Origin of the Name Ungoliant
The article first gives this etymology:

'In the form Ungoliant the name is technically Sindarin, but is a direct loan from Quenya ungwë liantë: "dark spider"'

But at the end of the Origins section:

"The name Ungoliant is partly derived from the root ungol ("spider"), which also occurs in Cirith Ungol, where Shelob resided..."

"Derived from the root..." of what language? And ungwë vs. ungol?

--Johnabdl 18:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The Quenya form, Ungweliantë was 'Sindarinized' to 'Ungoliant'... Quenya 'Ungwe' becoming Sindarin 'Ungol'. The Quenya was actually more like 'great dark spider' (ungwe meaning both 'gloom' and 'spider'). The 'liant(e)' portion was outdated even in Quenya and doesn't occur in Sindarin at all. The full translation to Sindarin was Delduthling, 'spider of the horror of night', but apparently the Sindarinized 'Ungoliant' was more commonly used. Prior to coming up with 'Cirith Ungol' Tolkien wrote, "ungol darkness, ungor black, dark, gloomy. In N not used except in name Ungoliant, which is really taken from Q." - LROW, Etymologies - UŇG. Note that 'N' was his abbreviation for the language spoken by the exilic Noldor (as opposed to Q for the Quenya of Aman)... which he later determined to actually be Sindarin due to Thingol's decree that Quenya not be spoken. Thus, the usual Sindarin for spider was apparently 'lhing' prior to the arrival of Ungoliant. --CBD 01:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Picture
Do people think that it's woth it, if we put a picture of her in?


 * I think that would be excellent, as long as you can find one that meets Wikipedia guidelines.--UrsaLinguaBWD (talk) 05:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Ungoliant's origins
Somebody further up the page suggested that Ungoliant was the personification of Hades or Sheol but personally I doubt this. The role of Hades/Sheol was played by Mandos. Personally I believe that Ungoliant was the personification of the darkness that existed before Eru came into being the same way the Leviathan is sometimes thought of as being the embodiment of the chaos that came before God. Many mythologies and religions will have a supreme being of evil such as Melkor (the Norse had Loki, the Egyptians had Set, Christians have Satan) and then a gigantic monster that seeks to devour everything like Ungoliant (Fenric, Apophis, the Leviathan) whom even the supreme being of evil feared. For example in Egyptian mythology the supreme God Ra was protected by a legion of gods the mightiest of which was Set who later became the god of evil. They protected him from the evil serpent God Apophis who sort to devour the sun. In this, Ra could be thought of as Illuvatar, the other gods could be thought of as the Ainur, Set could be thought of as Melkor and Apophis could be thought of as Ungoliant. Furthermore Set would sometimes join forces with Apophis as Melkor did with Ungoliant. Enhancing the similarities, Set had an animosity with his benevolent brother Osiris the same way Melkor did with Manwe, the same way Loki did with his brother Balder and the same way Satan did with his brother Michael. --Illustrious One (talk) 16:33, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Ungoliant was not a personification of Hades or Sheol. I like your alternative suggestion that she was a personification of 'original darkness,' but I suspect the reality is simpler. When you read the textual history, it seems clear that in the earliest versions, Ungoliant was just a scary spider-- a plot device to add excitement and a disturbing element to the destruction of the trees. Tolkien never makes it totally clear in the more finished texts what he ultimately conceived of for her origins, but the evidence strongly suggests she was a Maia. Ungoliant was in the Undying lands, not Middle-earth; Melkor refers to her as a disloyal servant at one point; and she isn't that strong until she suddenly waxes after consuming the jewels of the Elves. Add to that the fact that with her attention focused on Melkor, a group of Balrogs was able to chase her off-- certainly not Ainu and probably not a personification "outside" the cosmology. Just as Sauron was a Maia obsessed with order, she seems obsessed with chaos and destruction-- too wild to be much of a useful servant, and certainly no leader in her own right. 169.253.4.21 (talk) 15:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)TexxasFinn

Thank you. I think Melkor called her a "disloyal servant" because she worked in cahoots with him them tried to eat him which put a bit of a strain on their relationship. Melkor seems to consider everyone his servants. You're right about Ungoliant giving a disturbing element to the story. Tolkien was (like myself) arachnophobic supposedly as a result getting bitten by a tarantula in his youth so he liked to use giant spiders to give his stories a creepy feel when they needed them. Like you say he probably just created her as a "scary spider" and an exciting plot device though if I were to decided on an origin for her the "original darkness" theory would be my favourite. I imagine she could go wherever she chose because she didn't have a place in Illuvatar's creation which would explain why she was in Aman. I doubt she was a Maia though. I think she could have made short work of the Balrogs if she wanted to but was too tired and bloated to put up a fight. She certainly didn't intend to be a leader in her own right. Like Fenric or Apophis she just wanted to eat and destroy everything. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 20:06, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The balrogs were Maiar... My theory is that Ungoliant is beyond categorizing (as Tom Bombadil) and it is hardly understandable that she even existed (which is the author's liberty). - It is a commonplace of Christian theology that evil is only the absence of good; as such, it has no existence in its own right. The Devil exists because of his being created good. Fine - the same could be said about Morgoth. But Ungolianth is nothingness incarnate (a thing impossible, but, as I say - author's liberty), without any necessary further connection to evil as, well, that nothingness is of course also the absence of good. (I always have the feeling in the Silmarillion that, despicable as Morgoth is, in the pair with Ungoliant Ungoliant was the nastier of the two, and that one time in his life Morgoth did something good when he had Ungoliant defeated by the balrogs.) --91.34.230.135 (talk) 11:06, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Offspring
This article says that Ungoliant gave birth to the Giant Spiders; but their entry says they were offspring of Shelob. I don't know if this is an inconsistency in source or in wikipedia. killy mcgee (talk) 19:04, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It says they are the descendants of her, not that she gave birth to them. There is a difference. Shelob if I remember my facts correctly was her "daughter" Carl Sixsmith (talk) 20:00, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Above that, it says "Whilst there, she gave birth to the lesser Giant Spiders, as well as various creatures infesting the Ered Gorgoroth". killy mcgee (talk) 12:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ooops missed that, this whole article needs re-working. I'll make a start probably take a couple of days though. Carl Sixsmith (talk) 12:45, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * There's giant spiders in Ered Gorgoroth (children of Ungoliant), but also of Mirkwood (probably children of Shelob, but I haven't looked up the reference). Elphion (talk) 20:29, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Re-write
Thanks to all the edits to the re-write, this is beginning to look like a much better article. I need to dig out my copy of the Silmarillion to add references to source material, but does anyone have any decent secondary sources they could reference? Carl Sixsmith (talk) 08:11, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Image is flag of Israel
When you hover over Ungoliant in other wiki pages (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelob), the image shown is that of the flag of Israel. I tried but can't find how to fix, can someone more knowledgeable try? Almogor (talk) 19:22, 15 September 2023 (UTC)


 * This is the result of template vandalism. I've purged the page cache so it should be fixed now. Nardog (talk) 22:43, 15 September 2023 (UTC)