Talk:Unseen character/Archive 1

The Diaz Brothers in Scarface
I always thought they were particularly funny unseen characters. They were a constant threat throughout that movie.

Rebecca
Does Rebecca (the character from the Daphne DuMourier novel of the same name) not belong on this page? Surely she's one of the most famous unseen characters of all time? Or maybe I missed something... :) -- LisaJay 19:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a page listed on this one where there is a list of unseen characters. Rebecca is on there, both referred to from the Hitchcock film and the DuMourier novel. Jonomacdrones 19:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * See below. --The very model of a minor general (talk) 13:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think Rebecca would qualify as she is dead before the story begins. Quis separabit?  06:17, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Spoiler
A spoiler heading would be good. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yeloow (talk • contribs) 23:22, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

The list
What happened to the complete list of unseen characters. Why are some of these articles missing? RobertCMWV1974 21:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

3-2-1 PENGUINS: The face deal.
You never see GrandMUM's face. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 03:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, in the final episode (then the final episode, I understand NBC has asked that it be renewed), they do show her face. I was rather disappointed that they did that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.21.92.29 (talk) 05:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Darth Vader
Would Darth Vader count as a partialy seen character in Empire Strikes Back? Since although his armor is frequently seen, the only actual shot of him is the brief image of the back of his head in his meditation chamber... M Schwarz (May 20, 2007)


 * No, since he is seen and heard at the end of Return of the Jedi. -- Interrupt_feed 00:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Carlton the doorman
In sitcom: Rhoda —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.183.106 (talk) 21:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * No, he's heard all the time drunk and slurring his words. Quis separabit?  06:17, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

George Steinbrenner
"The real George Steinbrenner was going to appear on the season seven finale “The Invitations” but refused after learning that Susan Ross would be killed off." The George Steinbrenner article says different. -- Ianiceboy 06:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Unseen characters in books
"Hidden characters appear in all varieties of fiction." I am intrigued by the idea of an unseen character in a book. I think these points need more elaboration. The article says only:
 * books feature characters who are merely referred to.
 * In the Xeelee Sequence of novels by Stephen Baxter, the titular aliens are mentioned numerous times, yet never actually seen.

It is true that, in a book written from a limited point of view, a character may be referred to within that point-of-view without being described within it. However, the reader experiences all characters, seen and unseen, in essentially the same way: both are described using the same medium, language, whether inside of outside the frame story. The degree of differentiation experienced depends on the craft of the author. This is a lesser distinction that that of an unseen character in a audio/visual fiction, who is literally unseen/unheard by the spectator, in contrast to the other characters on stage or screen. This difference is felt regardless of the craft of the actors and director. jnestorius(talk) 22:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that any discussion on this topic should make mention of Godot from Waiting for Godot. Zozoz 04:38, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

What, no mention of Robin Masters?
Robin Masters being unseen is a major running gag of Magnum, P.I.. It is surprising that no mention is made of him. His own article seems to make him qualify as "partially seen character". Luis Dantas 18:53, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

-- or Ice Pick, for that matter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.205.183.4 (talk) 09:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * A belated response (for the benefit of others who may be mislead by these two suggestions), but once again you are not understanding the concept "unseen character", please READ the article. Two different actors were credited as Robin Masters over the run of the series, therefore he is not an unseen character, even though he is only heard; if there is any sensory perception of a character, it is not "unseen".  Ice Pick was never portrayed, but he also does not fit the concept of an unseen character: we never really learn anything about him other than that Rick knows him and sees him often. That is NOT an unseen character, it is just a name that is frequently dropped. Again, please READ THE ARTICLE before suggesting things that do not belong here. 12.233.147.42 (talk) 00:16, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

UK TV
I think this is too specific for the article, so I'm moving it out. -Malkinann 10:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Unseen characters in United Kingdom television
The best-known unseen character in British television was Elizabeth, the wife of Captain Mainwaring, the main character in Dad's Army; not showing her added a touch of whimsical fantasy to the programme. In The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin, Reggie's mother-in-law is never seen, but Reggie keeps thinking of her as a hippopotamus. In Are You Being Served? the action almost never left the department store, so the odd mention of the characters' lives outside the store tended to include unseen characters. The scriptwriters Dick Clement and Ian La Frenais included a large number of minor unseen characters in Whatever Happened to the Likely Lads? and Porridge, in the form of people the leading characters had known earlier in their lives who were mentioned briefly. In hit sitcom Fawlty Towers, Sybil's best friend Audrey was only ever referred to, or in contact with Sybil Fawlty through telephone calls, but later appeared in the penultimate episode, played by Christine Shaw. In Drop the Dead Donkey the owner of Globelink News, Sir Roysten Merchant remains unseen throughout the series until the final episode, where the character Gus Hedges confronts him after Sir Roysten shuts down the company. At the end of the scene, Sir Roysten claims he has no idea who Gus is, despite the fact Gus has been one of his most loyal servants.


 * Brief mentions aren't enough. A character isn't a character unless other characters talk about them enough for the audience to form a detailed picture of them. 1Z (talk) 14:51, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that "Mrs Mainwaring" from "Dad's Army" is at least as noteworthy as "'Er Indoors" from "Minder".81.99.236.225 (talk) 13:39, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

List
That list of unseen characters is ridiculous and unnecessary. It takes up about 94 KB, which is absolutely ludicrous. Please leave it out of the article. --Jtalledo (talk) 22:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Waiting for Godot
Someone above did mention Godot in Waiting for Godot, but nothing else has been said. I, for one, really think that should be in here, but someone with more knowledge on the subject should do it. -Gohst 02:03, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. Godot is one of the most important examples of the 'unseen character' technique as seen on stage. - Mithead 09:04, 17 July 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.172.35.238 (talk)


 * See below. --The very model of a minor general (talk) 13:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems erroneous, ghost characters are existing ones, while Godot was supposed to be non-existing and only believed to exists by the protagonists (Beckett was a hardcore atheist and the very name 'God-ot' was intended as a ridicule of religious faith). Or am I overinterpreting? 37.190.150.20 (talk) 00:03, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Chef from Star Trek: Enterprise

 * I think Chef should be included in this list, since he is never actually seen or heard throughout the series. We do see him in the last episode, but he's portrayed by Jonathan Frakes as William Riker. -- Interrupt_feed 00:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Ted's Mother
In Their Story Ted dreams about having hair and accidentally kills his mother, at which point she is clearly visible. So she's appeared once... R&#39;win 08:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Detective John Munch
...of Law & Order:SVU & Homicide: Life On The Street (among others). Anyone remember seeing any of his wives? I can't help but think of him when it is stated in this article that Lenny Briscoe's wives were never seen or heard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlg9999989 (talk • contribs) 17:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

One of his ex-wives made an appearance on Homicide:LOTS (her mother's funeral). Also, he married recurrer Billie-Lou, but they divorced before SVU started. Ralphmerridew (talk) 12:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Gwen was the one seen. He rarely names his other ex-wives. He did have a moderately long and tempestuous relationship with a "Felicia" or "Phylicia", I don't know the spelling, who I don't think was ever seen. In one episode we see him screaming at her outside the department's doorway, but she's offscreen and her responses are unheard.--T. Anthony (talk) 04:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

This seems to be a recreation of an article ("List of unseen characters") which was deleted after an AfD discussion
I have blanked it, in accordance with a suggestion on the Wikipedia help page. -- Orange Mike 04:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have deleted the page, per criteria G4 (ref: Special:Undelete/List of unseen characters, Articles_for_deletion/List_of_unseen_characters). The article was substantially a copy of the previously deleted article.  Take it to deletion review if you'd like.   Keegan talk 05:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Error: Sauron
Sauron should not be included as an example of this. He is seen in the Lord of the Rings books, near the end of The Return of the King. He appears to the Gondor forces in a gigantic clouded spirit form before disipating. He is also depicted ("see") repeatedly in The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. Smyslov (talk) 03:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Is he seen in the movies, however? If he is not seen in the movies, he is an unseen character in the movies, although not in the books. Respectfully, SamBlob (talk) 05:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, he's listed in the Books section of the article, and clearly this is in error. And he's definitely shown in the Peter Jackson movies, as the very first one opens with a battle scene where Sauron directly participates. Sauron very clearly appears in The Return of the King: "there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell." Smyslov (talk) 16:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Whither narrators?
Naturally, a narrator who is a character in the show, like the eponymous Alfie, or Alan-a-Dale in Robin Hood (1973 film), would not be an unseen character, but what of the narrator of The Dukes of Hazzard, of whom the characters appear to be totally oblivious? (Waylon Jennings does appear in an episode, but as himself, with no in-context mention of him being the narrator.) And what when the characters are not oblivious of the narrator, as at the end of each "Pigs In Space" and "Veterinarian's Hospital" segment of The Muppet Show? Respectfully, SamBlob (talk) 05:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Purge
Currently the article is ~119kB long of that I'd say approximately 118kB is original research. I realise that a lot of work has been put into the article but Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. Just looking through the article some of the information that is contained is just wrong - for example "Ugly naked guy" is listed under both charcaters who have never been seen and characters who have been seen (he has been seen - in the episode where Ross gets his apartment). There is no way to verify any of the examples given (except the very few that are sourced) other than the word of editors, this is not acceptable - reliable source have to be provided. I'm pretty sure the subject itself is notable as its been a commonly used plot device in many different forms of media but as it is the article does not belong on WIkipedia. I'm going to remove all the list entries - apart from those sourced and stubbify all the (completely unsourced and OR ridden) individual sections. I'm sorry to take such drastic action but in encyclopaedic terms and by the standards for inclusion of content set out in Wikipedia's policies and guidelines the article is a disaster. I'll be looking for reliable sources from which the article may be re-written, I hope that other editors will support and contribute to this effort. Guest9999 (talk) 18:40, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I've removed the bulk of the content, there was very little to save from the body of the text as it was completely unreferenced I ended up removing everything but the lead. The rest read more like an essay that an encyclopaedia article and was pretty much 100% original research. Articles should be built around reliable sources, not the other way around. Guest9999 (talk) 19:21, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

How about...?
How about ... 'er indoors' - Arthur Daley's wife in 'Minder'?

or

Pvt Godrey's sister Dolly in Dad's Army? (she made awfully good cucumber sandwiches you know)

86.156.91.140 (talk) 20:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

What makes a character notable?
I guess nobody know the answer. (Or rather: everybody knows some answer, but we will never agree on a definitive answer).

If the wikipedia article about a drama (TV show, stage play, whatever) does not mention the character's role in the events, then I would say he or she is not notable enough for the purposes of wikipedia. --The very model of a minor general (talk) 22:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Mom and Dad
Mom and Dad in Cow and Chicken are never seen from the waist up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.176.191.175 (talk) 21:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Al Bundy's mother-in-law
is a famous contemporary and somewhat recent unseen character, are there any references for this? I think it is a very notable example.Myheartinchile (talk) 15:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, but her voice has appeared many times. So is that the same? After all, the character has an actress, so is that the same? Is there a difference between an unseen character and an unseen but heard from character? --Torsrthidesen (talk) 14:32, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Examples of unseen characters
This could be drastically improved by not only mentioning the character, but also explaining with a source statement, which the character is important. The lead section of this article itself states that: They are continuing characters — characters who are currently in frequent interaction with the other characters and who influence current story events — who are never directly observed by the audience but are only described by other characters. By providing arguments which support this statement, the article will be much stronger. Flibirigit (talk) 05:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Do we even need a list of examples? It's getting rather out of hand, in my opinion, as there is no real criteria for adding examples.  Who decides whether an example is relevant?  We had the same issue on the running gag article, and eventually decided to remove the list.  Can I suggest we ask for consensus on this?


 * Remove - the list is unnecessary - if the description of an "unseen charcater" in the article is succinct and accurate, examples are not required, and the list as it stands is getting unwieldy (it's about eight times the size of the article text) and there are no clear criteria for adding entries to it.
 * Comment - I have removed those entries that have no reliable sources. I still maintain that the list is not required, as it is a reproduction of a previously deleted article. --  JediLofty UserTalk 09:37, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree the list had become unwieldy, but the new list is now boring and uninteresting, making the article irrelevant to our society. Perhaps the old version could be mined for a few more well-known and good examples, such as the chef from Star Trek: Enterprise.Njsustain (talk) 05:51, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - why do we need a list at all? Surely the concept can be explained perfectly well by the article text, which would negate the need for a list. --  JediLofty UserTalk 08:38, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Examples are an excellent way of demonstrating concepts, are interesting, and perhaps useful. As many people insist on pointing out at every turn, this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, NOT a dictionary, so a list of valid examples is completely appropriate. Njsustain (talk) 18:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Per this discussion, I have removed the examples -- JediLofty Talk to meFollow me 13:54, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Godot, Rebecca, Harvey
The following unseen characters seem worth mentioning, because they appear in the title but not in the movie/play itself: The very model of a minor general (talk) 13:51, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Godot, from Waiting for Godot
 * Harvey, the rabbit from Harvey
 * Rebecca, from Rebecca (film) or Rebecca (novel)

I don't get the hard line
I know that there are standards to uphold, but really, I've seen articles on subatomic physics under less scrutiny than this one. Carlton the doorman was one of the most well known unseen characters in TV history... a veritable archetype. The Rhoda page describes it without anyone taking issue... but here, the heavy hand comes down. This is an article about TV characters... how about some perspective when deleting people's work? Could you at least ask for a citation first? Just my opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Njsustain (talk • contribs) 20:44, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This is the trouble when we include a list in an article like this - it gets out of control. The best way to ensure a list stays as focussed as possible is to request citations.  And for reference - "Carlton the doorman" might be "one of the most well known unseen characters in [American] TV history", but as someone who lives in England, I can honestly say that I have never even heard of him.  This is another reason for citing sources... to ensure verifiablity. --  JediLofty Talk to meFollow me 08:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In addition, there is no stated objective boundaries for exclusion/exclusion. Should it be limited to "major characters" (whatever that may be) of a movie (such as Harvey)? Should obscured characters (like Wilson of Home Improvement or Charlie of Charlie's Angels) even be considered? If television series are discussed, would "one-off" characters be out of bounds? These need to be decided (in addition to having reliable sources with reviews or articles about the series or the characters themselves). 147.70.242.40 (talk) 15:12, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't this page rather miss the point?
Very few of the characters described on this page are genuinely 'unseen characters'. An unseen character is, as the intro to the article states, "never directly observed by the audience but are only described by other characters."

The article takes this to mean 'never visually seen', which is not the usual meaning of 'unseen character'. The examples then interpret even this in an extremely loose way, to include people who are directly observed, as long as their face is obscured - e.g. Blofeld, Darth Vader, etc. etc. Even Charlie from Charlie's Angels isn't a good example, as he is not only seen (from behind), but heard.

Usually, an unseen character is one who makes no direct appearance in the story at all, not just one who can't physically be seen. Note that this clears up some of the questions that people have had about how you can have unseen characters in books. Good examples (mostly in the article already)include:


 * Godot from Waiting for Godot.
 * Maris Crane from Frasier.
 * Mrs. Colombo from Colombo (I'm fairly sure she's never seen, anyway).
 * Monkey Harris in Only Fools and Horses.

The common thread to all these characters is that they are repeatedly referenced, and provide some level of motivation for the plot, but never make any direct appearance of any kind.

Does anyone agree that this article needs a really big cleanup? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheAstonishingBadger (talk • contribs) 00:10, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. I just removed a number of bad examples. "Unseen" means unseen. If I can see your arm, I can see you. If I can see your whole body except for your face, I can see you. The description of "unseen character" is pretty clear. It does not say "a character who you can see part or all of with the exception of their face." This ain't rocket science, folks. Charaters from your favourite TV shows might be "mostly unseen", but that does not qualify them as "unseen", less still as paradigm exemples that illustrate the concept of the "unseen character". There are enough good examples of characters that really are unseen that there is even less reason to include any seen-except-for-their-faces cases. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.177.25.163 (talk) 16:43, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

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Foehammer
A bad example in my opinion, since while he is literally "unseen", unseen characters mostly refer to characters that the audience only knows about because other characters mention them (literally "unsensed characters"). Kotiwalo (talk) 11:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

such as what?
>>A notable example is the long-running British radio soap The Archers which has featured several such silent characters, such as

such as who? 63.239.94.203 (talk) 05:03, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Aldonza "Dulcinea" Lorenzo del Toboso
I think this character is one of the most important unseen characters in literature. I mean, Sancho Panza's histories about her, are one of the principal motivations of Don Quixote; maybe is that she doesn't actually exist in the novel?.

(Sorry for the bad grammar/spelling, my English isn't THAT good.) 189.146.147.109 (talk) 05:55, 9 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Correct. Dulcinea is a figment of his imagination. Rv accordingly. Quis separabit?  16:29, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Peter O'Toole and Shakespeare
Maybe someone has more details on this one, as it perfectly fits the criteria for "unseen characters" listed above. Peter O'Toole had a sign on his door with a Shakespearian character's name on it. That character is listed in the cast for one of Shakespeare's plays, but never shows up. O'Toole's joke was that he was often missing from the room himself. I can't remember the name of the character or the play, or where I read this, but I'm pretty sure it's correct. Myles325a (talk) 02:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Mrs. Colombo
I think she had her own show so why is she in this? Or I think it could at least be mentioned that she has been seen in her own episode. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.114.6.76 (talk) 22:59, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * See Columbo (TV series). Do you have a reliable source saying she was ever seen in "Rest in Peace, Mrs. Columbo" or another episode? PrimeHunter (talk) 23:56, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

In the context of the show "Columbo" Mrs. Columbo is a classic unseen character. She's never seen in the "universe" of that show, yet Lt. Columbo speaks of her constantly. In the short lived show "Mrs. Columbo" they reversed the gag, in that show we see Mrs. Columbo, and she talks constantly about her husband, who is never seen in the universe of that show. Fish Man (talk) 12:58, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Unseen but heard
I have heard the term unseen character used to describe people who are never seen to any degree, even from behind (i.e George Steinbrenner on Seinfeld). Examples of this include the P.A. announcer on M*A*S*H and the Carlton, the doorman, on Rhoda (only ever heard on Rhoda's apartment intercom). Thus the description in the intro that this type of character is only ever describe by others but never actually seen seems to me to be a little misleading as some are at least heard. --67.101.223.198 (talk) 16:04, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Firstly, "I have heard" is not a source that can be used in a Wikipedia article. The term "unseen character" has a scholarly history, so you need to provide some significant source for a more permissive definition than the one used on the page. It does not surprise me that in common, casual usage the word is misused, but that is not relevant to the article. Secondly, you are completely wrong about Steinbrenner. He is seen in most scenes in which he appears. 99.192.65.58 (talk) 16:56, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Friend 67's point was that the back of Steinbrenner's head is always seen, but we never see his face. It could be George Bush or George Clooney for all we know.  --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  10:07, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Same with Wilson on Home Improvement (TV series)... or Bill Brasky. Shadowjams (talk) 22:41, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Illustrative examples
For the first parts of this discussion, check here and here.

To summarize, yesterday there were 10 examples of unseen characters in the "Illustrative examples" section. Then today Rms125a@hotmail.com added 10 more examples. In previous discussions of listing examples, the consensus was to keep them to an "absolute minimum". I thought that more than 10 examples were not needed.

Rms125a@hotmail.com, you expressed concern that examples included "British television and radio series with no mention of U.S. serials" (although one of the 10 examples you added was also a British series). I replied that I don't think it matters what the country of origin is - there is even a French play and a Spanish novel in the examples offered. You also expressed concern that "using examples which are not antiquated or likely to be obscure" is a problem, yet among your additions were three television series that are 30 to 40 years old. But furthermore, I see no reason that a reader of the article has to have any prior knowledge of any of the examples for them to be useful. I have never read Don Quixote nor seen The Women, but the descriptions of how there are unseen characters in both illustrates the concept well for me.

If anything, 10 examples is far more than an "absolute minimum", but I can compromise and agree to that many. (It also makes a nice round number, anyway). I also don't mind at all if some examples that were on the page are moved out to be replaced by other examples you or someone else might think is a better illustration. So I have looked over the 10 that were there and the 10 that were added and selected four of the new ones that would be good replacements for old ones and so substituted them in. The new selection reduces the number of plays from 6 to 4 and increases the number of TV series from 1 to 3 (with all three now listed being among the recently suggested additions). This also seems to be a better balance.

I really cannot imagine how someone could read the page with the 10 illustrative examples as I have just edited the page and still not understand the concept. If that is right, then any more than the 10 listed go beyond the "absolute minimum" agreed to previously. 99.192.86.244 (talk) 00:33, 17 January 2012 (UTC) (=99.192.83.238)

Censorship
This is ridiculous. Wikipedia has always been a place supposed to include anything decent of interest. Deleting the full list of such characters was absolutely unnecessary and whoever did that is nothing more than a censorship Nazi on a power trip who needs to be reported to Jimbo Wales and have their editing rights taken from them. Regardless of whether some characters fit the description or not (you can always separate those who are 'heard'), to have a page like this without the Fat Naked Guy from Friends, Maris from Frasier or Mrs. Wolowitz from The Big Bang Theory is just wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.183.62.83 (talk) 00:28, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Mrs. Wolowitz
For some time there has been a note within the editable text in the "Illustrative Examples" section explaining why "Mrs. Wolowitz" in "The Big Bang Theory" is NOT an unseen character. First, an "Unseen Character" in the dramatic definition that this article is discussing, is not perceived IN ANY WAY by the audience, and is only known to the audience via being mentioned and/or described by other characters. Since Mrs. Wolowitz' voice is HEARD in almost every episode, she is not an "unseen character" by this definition. Furthermore, this character is actually, in fact, SEEN in two episodes. Therefore, clearly not an unseen character. Here are two screen grabs from "The Big Bang Theory" in which WE ACTUALLY SEE Mrs. Wolowitz. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130217165656/bigbangtheory/images/6/68/Screen_Shot_2013-02-17_at_17.51.21.png and http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120511174829/bigbangtheory/images/b/b1/She_Exists_-O.png Fish Man (talk) 18:43, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Mrs. Columbo
Not sure if she qualifies as an "unseen character". Yes, she never appeared onscreen, on Columbo. But, one has to keep in mind that, they did do a short-lived Mrs. Columbo spin-off, where she was played by Kate Mulgrew. Because of that, she isn't really an unseen character.Coq87rouge (talk) 17:17, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem with that short-lived spin-off was that it received so much negative reaction that after the first few episodes aired, its producers immediately backtracked: the title was eventually changed to Kate Loves a Mystery, Mulgrew's character was renamed "Kate Callahan", and all references to Columbo were removed. "Kate Callahan" was now a divorcee, and completely different from the unseen Mrs. Columbo character depicted in Peter Falk's series.


 * As I recall, Falk was completely against this spin-off in the first place. Columbo creators Richard Levinson and William Link thought that the then 24-year old Mulgrew was too young for the part, and started to publicly say that this "Mrs. Columbo" was an imposter. Zzyzx11 (talk) 23:54, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Examples from Detective Novels
Motherless Brooklyn, by Jonathan Lethem, 1999, has a character named Ullman who is quite important to the plot, but is never seen. Also, '''The Maltese Falcon, by Dashiell Hammett, 1929-1930, has a character named Floyd Thursby, who is never seen or heard, but is quite important to the plot. Also, a character named Flitcraft, who is unseen and not heard from, comes up in The Maltese Falcon as well. 24.140.97.219 (talk) 18:35, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Heard but never seen section
Characters that are heard but never seen do not meet the definition of "unseen character". This section does not belong on the page and more than mentioning that sometimes characters are visually present but never say anything. 99.192.49.119 (talk) 21:22, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * OK, rv Carlton (from Rhoda) accordingly. Quis separabit?  16:29, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Godot
Godot fits exactly the definition given in the article: "An unseen character is a fictional character referred to but never directly observed by the audience. They are characters that are "heard of, but never heard from". If anyone thinks that Godot does not belong -- first change the article -- then delete Godot. Of course, since it is fiction, there is no question regarding whether Godot or any fictional character actually exists.GretDrabba (talk) 22:24, 27 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Fine. I re-added Harvey, which had been removed by a pestilent IP editor on the grounds that Harvey's existence cannot be confirmed. That was how Godot and Harvey both got removed in the first place. Quis separabit?  23:02, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 * First, Rms125a, if you cannot avoid making personal attacks then perhaps you should just not comment at all. Second, the page is not a list, so it is not important to include every and all cases of people you think are unseen characters. The examples are supposed to illustrate the idea, thus examples that are the least controversial and most clear examples of the idea are best, whether or not they are the most widely reported or the most famous ones.
 * The problem with Godot and Harvey both are that these characters might not exist at all. For Godot, Samuel Beckett wrote in a 1952 introduction to the play the following: "I don't know who Godot is. I don't even know (above all don't know) if he exists." So if there is a question whether or not he even exists, then he is a bad example to illustrate the unseen character.
 * The problem with Harvey is even worse. Dowd is taken by all the other characters to be mentally ill and imagining Harvey. If Harvey exists, he is somehow only visible to Dowd and not to other people supposedly in the same room with Harvey. The most conventional and simple interpretation of the play is that Harvey does not exist and just a figure of Dowd's imagination. So he makes a very poor illustrative example.
 * Finally, the page already has a lot of examples on it of characters whose existence is not questioned. There is no need to add more examples to properly illustrate the idea. So it is a very bad idea to add "examples" that might not be examples at all. If any classic example that was deleted should be restored, it is Dulcinea from Don Quixote. She certainly does exist (although her real name is Aldonza Lorenzo and her identity as Dulcinea is, as Quixote does with many people he meets, imagined) and certainly does not appear in the book(s). 99.192.95.249 (talk) 13:42, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

It is not right to begin a comment with an unwarranted potshot at another editor, or to dictate that one’s ideas should be accepted by being grouchy on a talk page. Nothing that 99.192.95.249 argues appears to be supported by what’s actually in the article: Fictional characters that are real, and fictional characters are not real? If that isn’t a lot of nonsense, then the article should be changed to match 99.192.95.249’s ideas — if the ideas are supportable. And there’s no offer from 99.192.95.249 of any wiki policy to support 99.192.95.249’s ideas of what must be excluded and what content must stay. The discussions to include Godot have been going on since June of 2007, when it was suggested that Godot should be included, then again in August and again in 2008, etc. The consensus — arrived at over seven long years — is in favor of Godot being included in this article.GretDrabba (talk) 18:29, 28 May 2014 (UTC)


 * "First, Rms125a, if you cannot avoid making personal attacks..."
 * My apologies. My reference to a "pestilent" IP editor was a backhanded reference to King Henry II's purported reference to Thomas à Becket, which I believe is the adjective the king used. Just an ancient literary tribute. No serious offense intended, just trying to explain the back and forth of why I keep having to readd and redelete stuff. Again, sorry.  Quis separabit?  23:30, 28 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, Rms125a. Apology accepted. 99.192.95.27 (talk) 02:04, 29 May 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)


 * GretDrabba, I am not sure I understood the first half of your comment here, but it seems you do not understand how characters can be real or not real within a work of fiction. It is really quite simple. Each work of fiction presents a world that is different from the real world. Sometimes in a work of fiction there are characters who are not real. So in the film A Beautiful Mind, John Nash is real, his doctor, Dr. Rosen, is real, but Charles Herman and William Parcher are not real. They are figments of Nash's imagination. So characters can be real or not real relative to a fictional world in a work of fiction. In the film Tootsie, Michael Dorsey is real (an actor played by Dustin Hoffman), Emily Kimberly is fictional (the character that Dorsey plays on TV within the film), and Dorothy Michaels is not real (a persona that Dorsey makes up to get the job playing Kimberly). So the question of whether or not a character in a work of fiction is unseen but real or unseen because imaginary is a question that can be asked and makes sense.


 * As for the mention of discussions in 2007 and 2008, those happened at a time when the page was a dumping ground that tried to include every possible example (and without any citations) of an unseen character. But since then there was a major overhaul of the page where the example bloat was removed. Since the page is not a list, not all examples are needed nor are they desired. Just a few of the most clear-cut ones is sufficient. The page is not denying that Godot is an unseen character by not listing him precisely because the page is not a list and one should not expect all cases to be mentioned. It is merely not using him as a clear and uncontroversial example because the guy who wrote the play says he might not exist (within the world of the play) at all. 99.192.95.27 (talk) 02:04, 29 May 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)


 * The editor 99.192.95.27 argues a theory or notion regarding what’s real and what’s not, but this theory isn’t supported — not with reference to anything that occurs in the article or to any published authority — so it appears to be what Wikipedia calls “Original Research”. (WP:NOR)


 * The same editor deletes content that’s accurate, supported, that’s added in good faith, that improves the article, and that a number of other editors believe belongs in the article. And this editor won’t offer any reference to a Wikipedia policy that supports such deletions. (WP:DP)


 * I think this article would be improved by allowing other editors to contribute in good faith, and by not having anyone’s participation prevented or circumscribed by one editor who wants operate outside of WP guidelines, and wants to dictate an article’s form and content based on his own privately held notions. “Wikipedia is here to provide information to people; generally speaking, the more information it can provide … the better it is.” (WP:EP)GretDrabba (talk) 18:04, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * It's not my theory. The theory that Godot does not exist was expressed by Samuel Becket more than 60 years ago - before I was even born.


 * Adding material in good faith is not sufficient for it to remain in the article. If it is inaccurate or unhelpful it should be removed, even if it was added in good faith. 99.192.94.117 (talk) 19:30, 29 May 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)


 * The interpretation of Beckett's words offered by editor 99.192.95.27 is his own interpretation, there are others. 99.192.95.27's interpretation is unsupported by any “reliable source” and is “Original Research”.  The consensus on this page, over the years, appears to be in favor of keeping Godot and Harvey.  Godot and Harvey should be restored.  Rms125a has suggested two possible solutions (see below), and I would agree with both of the ideas, I think dispute resolution may be in order.GretDrabba (talk) 16:58, 30 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Please do not violate WP:BRD. I have not "interpreted" Beckett's words. I just quoted them. He wrote, "I don't even know (above all don't know) if he exists". No interpretation is necessary.


 * Also, you have not even addressed the issue of Keeping up Appearances yet re-added it. It is easily demonstrable that he is seen. Just watch the opening credits of any episode and you will see a picture of Sheridan. You also can easily find information to show that there was an episode where he was in a car and the back of his head was seen. He does not fit the definition of "unseen character" at all. 99.192.78.237 (talk) 21:08, 30 May 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)


 * A theory is a theory, which by definition is unproved. It is not a law (like gravity) or even an axiom. Therefore there is no reason to remove Godot or Harvey. They could simply be placed in a different section, with rewording. If necessary this may need to go to dispute resolution. Quis separabit?  16:11, 30 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Placed in a different section? Like what? The examples are supposed to be illustrations of the idea the page is about. If there is some question as to whether these are examples at all, then they cannot be clear illustrations. Why are they needed on this page? Do you really think someone will read the page without Harvey and Godot and still not understand what an "unseen character" is? I find that hard to believe. 99.192.78.237 (talk) 21:13, 30 May 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)

There is an editor — 99.192.78.237 — who is preventing other editors from contributing to this article by deleting their contributions. He justifies his deletions by his own unsupported notions or by convoluted, word-twisting arguments. It’s not right.GretDrabba (talk) 11:31, 31 May 2014 (UTC)


 * This comment is not an argument for the inclusion of the specific items in question. It is just a personal attack. You are violating WP:BRD by re-adding edits under discussion and you also are re-adding cases of characters whpo are not unseen to the article without any discussion on this page. Please observe Wikipedia policies regarding editing. If you are not satisfied with the discussion here, you are welcome to ask for input from other editors. But edit warring is not proper procedure. 99.192.88.59 (talk) 14:14, 31 May 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)

Editor 99.192.88.59 removed in one large deletion a number of different entries, and the contributions of more than one editor — that’s not a proper procedure. If he insists on deleting content — he may delete one one entry at a time, then state the reasons on the talk page, and be prepared to discuss those reasons. The discussion for Godot, for example, needs to come to a resolution — it has been going on for years and the consensus is that Godot belongs in the article. This editor should consider some kind of compromise, as has already been suggested. This editor appears to be the same person using a variety of different names for his commentsGretDrabba (talk) 16:20, 31 May 2014 (UTC)


 * You are not observing proper procedure, but if you insist that each item be dealt with separately, then fine. I will. I will now delete each one, one by one, and start a new section for each one on this talk page. If you follow WP:BRD you will not re-add any of them until they are discussed here and a consensus is reached. Here we go.... 99.192.88.59 (talk) 17:12, 31 May 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)

Maris Crane
Maris is not an unseen character. In one episode she is seen in a hospital bed and in another episode we hear her gargling. These are direct observations of the character that makes her not qualify by the definition as an "unseen character" 99.192.88.59 (talk) 17:16, 31 May 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)
 * According to the Minor characters on Frasier list: "Maris makes only two onscreen "appearances": once in the episode "Voyage of the Damned" when her shadow is seen through a shower curtain (she is spoken to but makes no reply), and again in "Rooms with a View", where she appears in Niles' memory, almost completely covered by bandages after surgery", so she doesn't qualify. Quis separabit?  05:37, 8 March 2016 (UTC)


 * The important question is: Do you have any Reliable Source to support this interpretation? None are offered in this case.  Editors don't agree with the above interpretation and sources don't support it. Interpretations that are a person's own ideas, but are unsupported, are Original Research, and Wikipedia requires support from reliable sources. A "Unseen Character" in a TV series, like this one, can be unseen in many episodes, for years and years, and then the writers have a bit of fun with "the exception that proves the rule" and allows the character to be seen -- but not directly -- as a way of maintaining the "Unseen" aspect. So even the writers appear to want this character to be considered an "Unseen Character" -- in fact that's what the character is known for.  I suspect that the above editor says things just for the sake of argument.  It may be fun for him, but it hurts the quality of the article, which is having a problem in that regard.GretDrabba (talk) 11:00, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
 * In less time than it took you to write the above comment, you could have looked up Maris Crane on Wikipedia's Minor characters on Frasier page and found this:
 * "Maris makes only two onscreen "appearances": once in the episode Voyage of the Damned when her shadow is seen through a shower curtain (she is spoken to but makes no reply), and again in Rooms with a View, where she appears in Niles' memory, almost completely covered by bandages after surgery."
 * If you check both primary sources (the two episodes in question) you will see that she is not an unseen character. Q.E.D.. 99.192.88.39 (talk) 16:23, 3 June 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)
 * Says you. No one can be said to have "potrayed" her.  A shadow and a faceless body in a hospital bed aren't "appearances" in any real sense, and she is in the same reference cited for several of the other "unseen" characters above, and even the article mentioned above which is from Wikipedia and hence not a source for Wikipedia, she is said to have made "appearances", quotated, meaning that they are not actual appearances and the term is being used ironically.  2600:1004:B103:745C:2D5A:C6FB:48DB:87F (talk) 00:21, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly right. If a character's voice is never heard, and their face never seen by the audience, even if/especially if one or two times the writers use a mute faceless stand-in for the character to heighten the effect of the character being unseen and unheard, then they qualify as an unseen character. Furthermore, since multiple reliable sources call this character unseen, Wikipedia editors watching episodes and coming to shaky conclusions of their own about her unseen status is original research, or at best, synthesis, which is not allowed. Mmyers1976 (talk) 14:36, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Expanded thoughts for dispute resolution discussion: Vera from Cheers and Maris from its spinoff Frasier are two of the most recognizable examples of an unseen character in popular culture. As Frasier’s run was ending, its creators (who were also the creaters of Cheers) produced a documentary on the making of Frasier (“Behind the Couch: The Making of Frasier” in the Complete Season 1 DVD collection) in which they confirmed that both Vera and Maris are unseen characters. The producers state that they initially did not want to make Niles's wife Maris an unseen character because they did not want to draw parallels to Vera, Norm's wife on Cheers. They originally intended that she would appear after several episodes, but were enjoying writing excuses for her absence that eventually it was decided she would remain unseen, and after the increasingly eccentric characteristics ascribed to her, no real actress could portray her. This direct confirmation from the creators of both characters that the characters are unseen should be authoritative enough, but there are editors on the Unseen character article who insist on excluding both of these characters.

The exclusionists’ reasoning lies in their direct viewing of episodes of both series. For Maris they refer to an episode where the character is lying in a hospital bed after surgery, completely covered in bandages so that her face cannot be seen, and she has no dialogue, and another where her silhouette only is seen through a shower curtain, and she is “heard” gargling, but has no dialogue. For Vera they refer to an episode where a stand-in has a pie on her face so that you cannot see her face, and no dialogue is spoken by the character. This issue has been discussed back and forth, no consensus has been reached, and the exclusionists continue to delete any addition of these characters to the examples, even when new and more authoritative sources are provided, and then warning the editors who added this information, claiming consensus that is not there. The flaws in the exclusionists’ reasoning are as follows: Instead, we should rely upon the numerous sources that consider these two characters unseen, not the least of which are the creators of both characters, who explicitly said these were unseen characters in “Behind the Couch: The Making of Frasier”.Mmyers1976 (talk) 15:49, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) The article relies entirely on one source for its definition/characteristics of an unseen character: a text on 18th Century French plays. Such a definition that might work for a single stage work is not necessarily going to apply to episodic television that spans 11 years. Maintaining a character as an unseen character for many years, building audience’s expectations, and then teasing the audience with an “appearance” of the character that turns out not to be revealing because the character’s face is not seen and voice is not heard is a deliberate use of the fact that the character is unseen for comedic effect, something that long-running episodic television can take advantage of that 18th Century French theatre cannot.
 * 2) We never see either character’s face. Maris is only seen in silhouette or with her face covered in bandages, and in her only appearance Vera’s face is covered with a pie. These deliberate “near miss”-appearances play the unseen character status of these characters for comedic effect, teasing the audience that they might finally get to see the character, only to disappoint. They are the near-exceptions that prove the rule, if you will, that these characters are unseen.
 * 3) Gargling is not dialogue, it is a sound effect, therefore using it as a claim that Maris, as a distinct character, is “heard” is preposterous.
 * 4) The exclusion of these characters requires editors to apply a very strict definition of “unseen character” in episodic television that is not supported by any reliable sources, and then Wikipedia editors watching episodes of the show and creating their own interpretations of whether these near-appearances violate this unsourced definition. That’s original research, or at best, [[WP:SYN|synthesis.

Vera Peterson
Vera is not an unseen character. In fact, she was played by George Wendt's real life wife, Bernadette Birkett. She provided both a voice for Vera in a few cases and walked fully into a room with a pie in her face during a food fight. She is not unseen 99.192.88.59 (talk) 17:19, 31 May 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)


 * Again the question: Is there any reliable source that will support the idea that Vera Peterson is not an unseen character?  Editors and sources claim that she is an Unseen Character, Vera is famous as an unseen character, that is her primary quality.  She was never directly observed -- because she had a pie covering her face!  That is a case of the authors creating a bit of comedy by making a point that she is never directly seen.  The above editor seems to be allergic to reliable sources.GretDrabba (talk) 12:07, 3 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Do you think I'm lying? Do you think I just imagined that Bernadette Birkett. George Wendt's real wife played Vera? Here is a picture of her from the food fight episode: . Tell me if you see one person or two in the picture. If you see two, then you see both Norm and Vera. 99.192.88.39 (talk) 16:51, 3 June 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)


 * (See below where I respond further down ...) GretDrabba (talk) 19:14, 3 June 2014 (UTC)


 * This is nonsense. Good luck getting a consensus to agree with you that Vera is unseen in that episode. 99.192.81.244 (talk) 20:53, 3 June 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)
 * Vera's face is covered with a pie, a deliberate gag written in by the writers to riff on her unseen status. The instance you are using to "prove" that she isn't an unseen character actually does the opposite. If a character's voice is never heard, and their face never seen by the audience, even if/especially if one or two times the writers use a mute faceless stand-in for the character to heighten the effect of the character being unseen and unheard, then they qualify as an unseen character. Furthermore, since multiple reliable sources call this character unseen, Wikipedia editors watching episodes and coming to shaky conclusions of their own about her unseen status is original research, or at best, synthesis, which is not allowed. Mmyers1976 (talk) 14:34, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Mmyers1976 -- that is pure opinion, supposition, and OR on your part. Quis separabit?  21:17, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * What is this, "I-am-rubber-you-are-glue" time? I (rightly) call out judgement calls of editors to exclude information from the actual article as OR, so you lob the term back at me for something I said on the talk page? Well, fortunately, since my position for inclusion is based on multiple sources considering these characters unseen, your volley is neither here nor there. Mmyers1976 (talk) 22:01, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Sheridan Bucket
Sheridan Bucket is not an unseen character. In the episode "Let There Be Light" he is seen in a taxi as it drives away and his mother says goodbye. She also has a picture of him on her writing table that is shown occasionally in some episodes and is in the opening credits of every show. 99.192.88.59 (talk) 17:22, 31 May 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)


 * “Reliable sources” refer to Sheridan Bucket as an unseen character. Sheridan Bucket is an “unseen character” not once, but many times during the run of the show.  He is a remarkable and excellent example and he belongs in the article.  The question to the editor who keeps deleting other's contributions is:  Can anyone find a “reliable source” that says Sheridan Bucket is not an unseen character?


 * This article needs to be improved. It has problems, and it doesn’t have that much to offer on the subject.  Considerations of  the topic are not being addressed.  For example: Why do authors use unseen characters — what is their value?  Can using an unseen character be bungled?  What is the difference between a unseen character that is simply “absent”, and one that is effective?


 * When an article is resistant to being improved it sometimes is because there is an editor who behaves like a troll guarding the bridge who won’t let anyone cross over, and other editors are prevented and discouraged from contributing any improvements.


 * Another problem is that this article, on Unseen Characters, doesn’t seem to want to play by the rules of editing Wikipedia, and that keeps it from improving.  When the creators of Wikipedia dreamed up this democratically-functioning online encyclopedia they realized a danger was that if you allow anyone to contribute, then open the door to all kinds of ideas: good, crazy and foolish.  So the creators of Wikipedia said, “No — we’ll require that all the ideas come from ‘reliable sources’ such as books and things.”  Unfortunately, this particular article, operating outside of the ideas of WP’s founders, doesn’t have much appreciation for reliable sources, and is at the mercy of the problems that occur.


 * Here’s one example of this article disregarding “reliable sources”: Regarding  the unseen character, Rosaline, in Romeo and Juliet, this article says that Rosaline “is crucial to how the title characters meet.”  That’s not true.  (Romeo and Juliet met at a party that Romeo and his friends attended, and would have attended whether there was a Rosaline or not.)  The question is this:  Is that particular idea in the article supported by any reliable source?  No.  And if this article played by the rules — such an error would have been avoided.


 * People who are interested in the subject of “unseen characters”, and who are familiar with Romeo and Juliet (as MANY people are), are going think this article is not good.


 * And why is Rosaline there and not Sheridan Bucket? Rosaline has zero personality, characters onstage wish she would vanish from Romeo’s thoughts, the audience agrees, and when she drops out, the best part of the play begins.  Sheridan Bucket has more character, and is an “unseen character” not once, but many times during the course of the show.  He perfectly fits the definition given in the article, and is famous for being an U.C., and is his authors mined his “unseen character” aspect beautifully for lots of humor and irony.GretDrabba (talk) 15:11, 1 June 2014 (UTC)


 * “Reliable sources” refer to Sheridan Bucket as an unseen character. - Are you sure they are "reliable"? Some seem just like random websites of no particular reliability. But also, many references mention that he actually is seen in the episode I mentioned.


 * Can anyone find a “reliable source” that says Sheridan Bucket is not an unseen character? - I already have done that. A primary source (the episode itself) shows Sheridan. That trumps any secondary source that incorrectly denies that he is ever seen.


 * This article needs to be improved. For example: Why do authors use unseen characters — what is their value? I agree, but this has nothing to do with whether or not Sheridan is seen, so is a subject for a different section.


 * ...there is an editor who behaves like a troll guarding the bridge... See Civility. But if you are complaining because I remove purported examples of unseen characters who are not actually unseen, like Sheridan, then your complaint is baseless even if it were expressed in a civil manner.


 * Romeo and Juliet met at a party that Romeo and his friends attended, and would have attended whether there was a Rosaline or not. - Whether this is true is not related to Sheridan, so should be in a separate section, but you are wrong. The reason Romeo goes to the party is because he is hoping to see Rosaline. Here is the relevant passage from the play:


 * Benvilio: "At this same ancient feast of Capulet's / Sups the fair Rosaline whom thou so lov'st; / With all the admired beauties of Verona. / Go thither, and with unattainted eye / Compare her face with some that I shall show, / And I will make thee think thy swan a crow."


 * Romeo: "I'll go along, no such sight to be shown, / But to rejoice in splendour of my own."


 * And why is Rosaline there and not Sheridan Bucket? - Because she is unseen and he is not. 99.192.72.53 (talk) 15:27, 1 June 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)

Again the question: Is there any reliable source that will support the idea that Sheridan Bucket is not an unseen character? Editors and sources claim that he is an Unseen Character, Sheridan is famous as an unseen character, that is one of his outstanding qualities. He was never directly observed -- only partially -- in a case of the authors making a point that he is never directly seen. To site an episode as a source for an interpretation is deliberately fallacious.

If a character goes completely unseen for episode after episode, and year and year, and then is, at long last, only partially shown -- then only an argumentative stickler who argues for the fun of it, for the sake of arguing, could say otherwise. This article is having a problem.

Rosaline is not crucial to the meeting of R&J, the article is mistaken -- the idea is ludicrous and unsupported by any source. The above editor claims that Romeo goes there to meet Rosaline, so he says, but that doesn't make her "crucial" to R&J meeting -- they would have met at the party anyway; Romeo, if there were no Rosaline, would have attended anyway and found other reasons to be there -- the author gives no reason to think they wouldn't have met if not for Rosaline. Rosaline is not in the play for the purpose of introducing the two lovers. What really matters is that there is no source supporting the comment. It should be deleted for the sake of accuracy -- and if anyone wants to argue that it should stay -- find a source to support it. The article suffers due to this kind of argumentative chop logic.

Editors should not operate in this way outside the fundamental policies of Wikipedia with such a disdain for Reliable Sources.GretDrabba (talk) 12:48, 3 June 2014 (UTC)


 * A primary source is a reliable source. This is why plot summaries for films and TV shows need no citations. It is understood that the film / episode itself is the source. If Sheridan actually appears in an episode, then he is not unseen. He does appear in the episode named (and in every opening sequence). Q.E.D..
 * You can argue all you want about Rosaline being unimportant, but Shakespeare scholars will not be impressed by your idiosyncratic opinion. 99.192.88.39 (talk) 16:27, 3 June 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)

Godot and Harvey
The problem with Godot and Harvey both are that these characters might not exist at all. For Godot, Samuel Beckett wrote in a 1952 introduction to the play the following: "I don't know who Godot is. I don't even know (above all don't know) if he exists." So if there is a question whether or not he even exists, then he is a bad example to illustrate the unseen character.

The problem with Harvey is even worse. Dowd is taken by all the other characters to be mentally ill and imagining Harvey. If Harvey exists, he is somehow only visible to Dowd and not to other people supposedly in the same room with Harvey. The most conventional and simple interpretation of the play is that Harvey does not exist and just a figure of Dowd's imagination. So he makes a very poor illustrative example. 99.192.88.59 (talk) 17:24, 31 May 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)


 * Again the question of reliable sources: Beckett's words have been interpreted differently by different people, is there anybody, or any source, that will support the above interpretation? Apparently not.  (Obviously not.)  Godot is considered and is referred to as an Unseen Character far and wide.  He is one of the most famous of Unseen Characters.  It impoverishes the article to leave him out -- and makes Wikipedia seem stupid for not having Godot there.  (The same goes for Harvey.)  The above editor's personal opinions are not a reliable source.GretDrabba (talk) 12:16, 3 June 2014 (UTC)


 * "Beckett's words have been interpreted differently by different people." It is bizarre that you speak of the need to "interpret" what is stated directly and clearly. The only people "interpreting" his words are people who want to prove that he said something other than what he clearly did. 99.192.88.39 (talk) 16:29, 3 June 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)

Eunice Chantilly
Eunice Chantilly is a weak example because she is not really a character in the show at all, just someone who gets mentioned on rare occasions. Bu this standard any time a character mentions in passing someone they one knew it could be counted as an unseen character. Or any time a character says "My grandfather once told me..." suddenly we should count Grandfather as an unseen character.

But also, when this page was nominated for deletion in 2008 (see here: "...keep the list to the absolute minimum..." the decision was that the examples had gotten out of control and should be pruned back to a bare minimum. Adding new examples (and very weak ones) like Eunice are not needed. A reader will know what an unseen character is without her on the page, so the added example exceeds the "absolute minimum" of the decision that was made then. 99.192.88.59 (talk) 17:31, 31 May 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)

Some sources for article improvement
When this article was nominated for deletion in 2008, the decision was to keep it, but that (1) examples should be kept to an "absolute minimum", (2) Examples should be incorporated into the text instead of presented as a list (which the page is not), (3) and that there should be an expansion of the discussion of the significance of unseen characters. Since then not much of anything has happened to address the third point. Editor GretDrabba commented in an above section, "This article needs to be improved. It has problems, and it doesn’t have that much to offer on the subject. Considerations of the topic are not being addressed. For example: Why do authors use unseen characters — what is their value? Can using an unseen character be bungled? What is the difference between a unseen character that is simply “absent”, and one that is effective?" These are all very good questions and finding sources that could answer them would help improve the article a great deal, finally adding the material suggested in 2008.

Finding the sources on this can be a bit tricky. The second reference cited in the article might be a place to start. But other than this abstract, I don't know how one might get a copy of the entire dissertation. The author (Robert E. Byrd) published an article in The Eugene O'Neill Review (Vol. 24, No. 1/2 (Spring/Fall 2000), pp. 20-27) called "Unseen, Unheard, Inescapable: Unseen Characters in the Dramaturgy of Eugene O'Neill". One would need academic access to get that journal, but it could be a useful source. One other possible source is an article from the New York Times called "The Phantom Characters Inhabiting the Stage". That article mentions several plays from around 2008, when the article was written, and their use of unseen characters. It quotes several playwrights on their reasons for using unseen characters - mentioning both artistic and practical reasons for doing so.

So anyone who feels motivated to take on a significant re-write to the article might want to start with these articles. If anyone knows of any other sources that could be useful, please add them here. maybe if a good enough list of possible resources can be compiled someone might just decide to take on the job. 99.192.72.53 (talk) 16:14, 1 June 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)

An additional source: An article called "Tennessee Williams's Unseen Characters" by Susan Koprince appears in Tennessee Williams's Cat on a Hot Tin Roof: Modern Critical Interpretations edited by Harold Bloom. Most of the article can be seen via Google Books, but not all of it. The article was originally published in Southern Quarterly (Fall 1994). 99.192.72.53 (talk) 16:39, 1 June 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)


 * I thought I would add a few more thoughts here that I think might improve the article. First, the suggestions made above sound good.  The editor could talk to his local librarian who might very well be able to get those things he mentioned through an inter-city or inter-state loan.


 * I believe the article does need to contain a good list of Unseen Characters, because simply pointing out examples says so much about this particular topic. Unseen Characters can obviously vary so much from one another, so there should be a reasonable number.  Plus, after all, having a “list” was indeed a suggestion made back in 2008.


 * (When the above editor — 99.192.95.249 — says that the suggestion from 2008 was that there should be no list, I believe he's mis-quoting the actual suggestion which offers a choice: It says “keep the list” and this is followed by an alternative and opposite suggestion.)


 * A good number of examples for a list might be twenty or twenty-five. The examples should not be too obscure, unless there’s a good reason.  There are a lot of Unseen Characters used for comic effect, but there are those that are serious, threatening or frightening Unseen Characters.  Different types should be represented in the list.


 * In order to control the size of the list, I think the article could be changed so that there is one list section, and it could be headed “Twenty Examples”. Then editors will have the interesting task of comparing and rating each example against each other, and every good example that is added, will cause a less good example to have to leave the list.  This way the list may improve over time, and it won't grow beyond twenty or twenty-five.


 * Characters like Godot, Harvey or Sheridan Bucket should be included — they are known far and wide as “Unseen Characters”, and are so definitive as Unseen Characters that if for any reason a definition doesn’t include them — then there is something wrong with the definition, and it should be changed.


 * The editor who keeps deleting these particular characters, should be free to express objections to them in the article itself — of course assuming such objections can be sourced.


 * The most serious problem that this article faces is due to the misbehavior of a particular editor, who deletes the contribution of other editors who come along and attempt to offer any improvement. If that problem cannot be solved, then the chance that there can be improvement is not good.GretDrabba (talk) 05:04, 3 June 2014 (UTC)


 * "(When the above editor — 99.192.95.249 — says that the suggestion from 2008 was that there should be no list, I believe he's mis-quoting the actual suggestion which offers a choice: It says “keep the list” and this is followed by an alternative and opposite suggestion.)" - Now you are just lying by quoting out of context. The suggestion does NOT say "keep the list". It says "keep the list to the absolute minimum". You are attempting to bloat the list to be overly large (and doing so by adding non-examples).


 * But you are right that the suggestion to keep the list to the absolute minimum is followed by a different suggestion. It says, "or preferably incorporate it into the text". So what the decision is really saying is that the prefered choice is no list at all and the second best choice is a list that is kept to an absolute minimum. Twenty examples is not an absolute minimum. Any reader of the page with just ten examples will have no difficulty at all understanding the concept of the unseen character. 99.192.88.39 (talk) 16:36, 3 June 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)


 * The definition, as it stands, in the article says not that an unseen character is “never seen”, but that he or she is never DIRECTLY seen. In the photo the above editor refers to above, I see one character directly and the other character INDIRECTLY — her face is hidden.  The above editor may have a different interpretation — and he may be the only one — which is fine, but the question is:  Can any source be found to use as a citation that supports the singular interpretation of this one editor?  Apparently not.


 * A character that is unseen in one or two or ten episodes is indeed unseen. He or she is unseen once, twice or ten times.  If eventually the TV show decides to have them seen INDIRECTLY — for example covered with a pie or bandaged up so that you can’t see them directly, then they are still unseen in that episode — based on the definition that is in the article.


 * And they are still unseen characters for the complete episodes that went before. Editor 99.192.95.249 may have a different interpretation — he may be the only one — which is fine, but the question is:  Can any source be found to use as a citation that supports that particular interpretation?  Apparently not.  And unsourced material is not helpful, it’s not supposed to be used.


 * An important question is this: Is the definition used in the article accurate? I don’t think so.  The use of the citation for this definition, and the first two sentences that contain this definition, appear to be bogus.  Because first, the source cited at the end of the second sentence in the article is referring not to “Unseen Characters”, but to one specific and particular character that is in the particular 300 year old play being discussed in the source book.  The first sentence of the Wiki article with the phrase “never directly seen” appears to be completely unsupported.  Some wiki editor perhaps made it up without using a source.


 * And that’s the problem with the editing of this article — it operates outside the rules of using source materials, and the article is lousy with inaccuracies. And one particular editor is not allowing anyone to improve the article.GretDrabba (talk) 19:11, 3 June 2014 (UTC)


 * "A character that is unseen in one or two or ten episodes is indeed unseen." This is absurd. By this definition, any character that is not on the stage or on screen for any particular scene is an unseen character for that brief time. Worse, if a character is in a scene but is offstage or off screen even for a brief moment during the scene, then at for that moment the character is an unseen character. So unless a character is on stage /screen 100%, you are willing to count them as unseen. Absurd! 99.192.81.244 (talk) 21:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)

It may seem absurd to you, but it is the viewpoint held far and wide. The characters Godot, Harvey or Sheridan Bucket seem to be universally recognized as unseen characters. They’re famous for it. So you may consider such a generally held opinion absurd, and there is nothing wrong with being the only person on the planet to hold a particular opinion, but that might explain why you can’t find any “reliable source” to agree with you and support what you say. Reliable sources are a fundamental idea of Wikipedia. You seem to be, in this article, attempting to wrestle Wikipedia away from its normal way of doing things and into embracing your ideas — even if you can’t find any source to support you — by the sheer force of your finger on the delete button.

But I'm suddenly more concerned about the definition in the first line -- if it's not properly sourced, as appears to be the case, then we've got to find a good source that contains a definition. I have been looking around and haven't found anything. Maybe somebody else can. I'm concerned -- especially following something you said in your last paragraph. The "Unseen Character" is a "thing". Isn't it? I'd hate to have it turn out that Unseen Characters are simple characters that are absent. That would be awful. It would mean that all that you and I have been arguing about is truly meaningless. I hope not. GretDrabba (talk) 03:27, 4 June 2014 (UTC)


 * You are tilting at windmills. There already is a citation in the article. A quick check of both the Byrd and Koprince sources I mentioned above shows that they give similar definitions. 99.192.91.239 (talk) 12:29, 4 June 2014 (UTC) (=99.192.95.249)

Headings re:radio
Eseentially, all radio characters are unseen, given the nature of the medium. Aren't characters such as the ones contemplated here really just "unvoiced" on radio as no one portrays them vocally as they have no lines? Do they really belong in this discussion? Also, and more to the point, while there are actual mentions of a British radio soap opera and its "unseen" characters, nothing in the article mentions an actual US radio series with such characters, so the "radio" part of the subheading is not really applicable with regard to the US as the article now stands. 2600:1004:B103:745C:2D5A:C6FB:48DB:87F (talk) 00:31, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Rosaline?! No way! She doesn't belong in this article!
The article says Rosaline is "crucial" to how Romeo and Juliet meet -- that is so not true. R & J met at a big party. Did Rosaline have anything to do with them being there? No way. And is such an idea supported by any reliable source? No -- the article about Jeff Buckley doesn't belong here either. It's nonsense. It's just some Wiki editor who doesn't know the play making stuff up. So, I'll go ahead and remove it. Try and find a better example. StBlark (talk) 18:58, 11 May 2015 (UTC)


 * If you look further up the page you will see a discussion of this example. It is explained that Romeo attends the party because he hopes to see Rosaline, so she is crucial to the meeting of Romeo and Juliet. The discussion above even quotes lines from the play to support this. As for the article, it contained information about the play to support the inclusion of this example. 99.192.65.83 (talk) 05:05, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Total rubbish. A WIKIPEDIA TALK PAGE IS NOT A SOURCE!  No way!  Plus the use of the play itself combined with some anonymous WIKIPEDIA editor's interpretation is ORIGINAL RESEARCH — that is a CLEAR violation of the principles found in WP:OR.  The idea of Rosaline is contradicted by the article itself — read the third sentence.  Oh, the misinformation that can be found in Wikipedia!  StBlark (talk) 12:19, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * First, you are edit warring. Please observe WP:BRD Second, I did not offer the talk page as a source. I offered a previous discussion here as a place where a source is located. The source is the actual text of the play, which clearly indicates that Romeo is encouraged to go to the party where he meets Juliet to forget Rosaline and he decides to go hoping to see her. The play is the source. Third, the reliable source you have deleted that was used in the article for inclusion and you called nonsense is a valid source for the claim that she is an unseen character. Fourth, your attitude is not very constructive. You might be a better help here if you would discuss the issue without the snark. It does not seem like you are interested in that however. 99.192.52.124 (talk) 20:15, 12 May 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.65.83)


 * I just also checked the page for Rosaline. There is a section there that is called Rosaline as plot device that says, "Analysts note that Rosaline acts as a plot device, by motivating Romeo to sneak into the Capulet party where he will meet Juliet. Without her, their meeting would be unlikely." This sentence is followed by a citation referencing an article published in a scholarly journal. If your concern is one of referencing, then the news article that was already in the article sources the description "unseen character" and the scholarly journal sources the claim that Rosaline is important to Romeo and Juliet meeting. 99.192.52.124 (talk) 20:35, 12 May 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.65.83)


 * Total rubbish. First of all: Other Wikipedia articles ARE NOT RELIABLE SOURCES!  Why?  Here’s a good example: The source that’s used on the WP Rosaline article, that you say comes from “a scholarly journal”, that you attempt to use to support your dubious interpretation, in no way claims what you say:  It NEVER says “that Rosaline acts as a plot device” and it NEVER says “Without her, their meeting would be unlikely.”  If you bring something rotten from one article and bring it to this article, you compound bogusness on top of bogusness.  That’s bad!  You yourself claim that that same source supports the idea that “Rosaline is important to Romeo and Juliet meeting.”  Where does it say that?  Baloney.  Be honest, please?  In your comment above all that, you claim (I quote you) that “the actual text of the play" is a source for your interpretation of the play?  Are you joking?  It is utter nonsense — for interpretation you have to go elsewhere.  The idea of Rosaline as an “unseen character” as this article intends is stupid, and she is absolutely contradicted by the third sentence in this article.  Read it. A famous play and you can’t find one single proper source to support your idea?  What’s the problem?  StBlark (talk) 17:48, 20 May 2015 (UTC)


 * You are not listening, "First of all: Other Wikipedia articles ARE NOT RELIABLE SOURCES!" No one has cited other Wikipedia articles as a source. Please read the comments more carefully. What I said was that other Winkipwedia articles CONTAIN a source from outside Wikipedia that verifies the claim. There is a difference.


 * "It NEVER says...." It does say that Rosaline is the reason Romeo wants to go to the banquet where he meets Juliet, thus making her crucial to that meeting happening. Read the article again more closely and you will see that. Page 210 of the article in particular makes that claim.


 * If you still do not agree then perhaps this will be an issue we should take to WP:3. But I would hope you can get past your hostile attitue and language and actually check the sources. They do support the claims made and are reliable sources. 99.192.68.174 (talk) 22:45, 20 May 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.65.83)


 * Quote it! You have a source that supports your interpretations?  Quote it!  QUOTE IT!  Let's see it!  Quote the words!  Quote the exact words!  What is the link to your source? Share it!   Put up or shut up!  You say things that are not truthful.  CONSTANTLY!  You are not honest about what is contained in your source.  StBlark (talk) 04:49, 26 May 2015 (UTC)


 * First, you clearly have a problem observing Civility. You should review the rules and try to abide by them. Secondly, There are lots of sources easily available that say that the reason Romeo goes to the party where he sees Juliet is because he wants to see Rosaline. The best source has already been quoted on this page - the play itself. I have already pointed you to that passage, but here it is again:
 * Benvilio: "At this same ancient feast of Capulet's / Sups the fair Rosaline whom thou so lov'st; / With all the admired beauties of Verona. / Go thither, and with unattainted eye / Compare her face with some that I shall show, / And I will make thee think thy swan a crow."
 * Romeo: "I'll go along, no such sight to be shown, / But to rejoice in splendour of my own."
 * If you need secondary sources, there is the one you deleted several times that I referred you to look at. The Gray article says that by making Rosaline a relative of Capulet that Shakespeare "gave Romeo a better excuse than a mere boyish prank in going to the banquet." If you need more sources, an article called "The Brevity of Friar Laurence" by Bertrand Evans in the Publication of the Modern Language Association (Vol. 65, No. 5 Sep., 1950, pp. 841-865) says Romeo "resolves to go, not, indeed, for Benvolio's urging, but 'to rejoice in splendour of my own.' In short, he goes to see Rosaline." In "Villainous Boys: On Some Marked Exchanges in Romeo and Juliet" by Trevor Howard-Hill, an article in the book Codes and Consequences published by the Oxford University Press in 1998, the author writes, "Romeo accompanies Mercutio in order to see Rosaline but immediately falls in love with Juliet." In "Romeo and Juliet: A Study" by Emily Hickey published in The Irish Monthly (Vol. 33, No. 380 Feb., 1905, pp. 61-72) the author writes of the party, "Romeo goes that he may see Rosaline." In a book called Romeo and Juliet: Language and Writing by Catherine Belsey and published by Bloomsbury in 2014 the author writes, "Paris has been invited to the Capulet feast to woo her, while Romeo has determined to gatecrash the same party in order to see Rosaline."
 * If that is not enough for you then the next step will be to get involvement from Third opinion, but surely this is more than enough sourcing for the inclusion of this item 99.192.91.206 (talk) 15:08, 26 May 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.65.83)
 * Not one of those sources supports the idea that Rosaline is “crucial” as your addition is attempting to claim. NOT.ONE.SINGLE.ONE.  The idea that she is “crucial” is a falsehood.  In fact, she is referred to as mere “excuse”, and — as an excuse — she is hardly better than a mere juvenile prank — according to the source you quote!    Not one of those sources you quote supports the idea that Rosalind is a CONTINUING CHARACTER — which is a criteria for her to be included in the article.  NOT ONE!    Not one of those sources you quote supports the idea that she is a character who FREQUENTLY INTERACTS WITH OTHER CHARACTERS — which is ALSO a criteria for her to be included.  Read the bloody article!  She twice fails the criteria listed in the article!  And you cannot find one single quote to support the idea that she belongs and lives up to the criteia in the article.  NOT ONE!!!!!!!   WHY NOT?!  What’s the problem?  The problem is that you want to win an argument —no matter how foolish or dishonest you have to be in order to do it. StBlark (talk) 17:07, 26 May 2015 (UTC)


 * You are still not observing Civility. You really should learn to do that. You also, at best, are now quibbling over the word "crucial". There is no question that Rosaline is unseen as defined on the page (" referred to but never directly observed by the audience"), no question that a reliable source that you keep deleting uses the term "unseen character" to describe her, and no question that many sources tell us that it is because of Rosaline that Romeo meets Juliet in the first place. Since you refuse to accept that, I will now refer the matter to Third opinion. 99.192.91.206 (talk) 18:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.65.83)


 * Thank-you for your input. I'll re-add it to the article. 99.192.91.206 (talk) 18:57, 26 May 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.65.83)


 * A third opinion? But you yourself are a Sock puppet.  Right? You don’t hide it very well. You are an editor that uses a variety of different identities on the same talk page, which deceptively makes it appear as though there are several people who share your opinion, and you are able to mask your activities and your history on Wikipedia pages.  When you say “Third Party” there is actually no way of knowing how many “Identities” are involved.  Will it in fact be a “Fourth Party” or a “Fortieth Party”.  Here’s a list of your various identities: You are Editor # 99.192.91.206, Editor # 192.65.83, Editor # 99.192.65.83, Editor # 99.192.68.174, Editor # 63.239.94.203, Editor # 86.156.91.140, Editor # 147.70.242.40, Editor # 99.192.91.239, Editor # 189.146.147.109, Editor # 99.192.95.27,  Editor # 58.172.35.238, Editor # 12.233.147.42, Editor # 37.190.150.20,  Editor # 24.140.97.219,  Editor # 66.183.62.83, Editor # 142.177.25.163, Editor # 67.101.223.198, Editor # 99.192.95.249,  Editor # 99.192.78.237, Editor #99.192.81.244, Editor # 99.192.81.244 …  and the list goes on!  Also I assume you have some identites that you keep hidden that do indeed have accounts and identities.  I suspect that your latest invention or guise is the editor “ONUnicorn”, who is posing as a “Third Party”, but who is in fact your own invention.  In other words — “ONUnicorn” is YOU as a Sock Puppet.  Consider this: The editor “ONUnicorn” never existed until May 22 — in other words, ONUnicorn is only a few days old — less than a week!  And when was ONUnicorn invented?  Only two days after you suggested that you were going to ask a “Third Party” for an opinion!  What a coincidence.


 * It appears that as soon as you got the idea of a third party you then invented ONUnicorn to play that role. ONUnicorn — like the “Unicorn” doesn’t really exist.  That editor has certain qualities in common with you, for example he doesn’t follow the rules either.  Was there really a request and a posting for a “Third Party”?  There is no evidence.  If there is a such a posting it should be available to be judged as to whether the dispute was fairly framed.  NONE OF THAT HAPPENED.  Were other editors who are involved on this Talk Page notified?  As they’re supposed to be?  NO!!!!!!  Did “ONUnicorn” discuss in a reasonable way the issues, as he’s supposed to do?  No!  You are using Sock Puppetry in an attempt to vandalize this article. StBlark (talk) 14:14, 27 May 2015 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about? You suspect me of being a sock puppet of our IP friend, and claim I never existed until May 22, but where do you get that idea?  My first edit was March 29, 2006. As for the IP editor using mulitple IP addresses, that's not uncommon as most IP addresses are dynamic. You say there is no evidence of a request being submitted at WP:3O but here's the diff where the IP requested a third opinion and here's the diff where I accepted the assignment. Please  assume good faith. ~  ONUnicorn (Talk&#124;Contribs) problem solving 15:40, 27 May 2015 (UTC)


 * First, now that I can actually see the particular request that was made to you — it appears to me that you were misled into thinking the dispute is whether Rosaline is an unseen character. That is absolutely not at issue.  But that is how the request to involve you was phrased, and that is apparently the mission you accepted.  Of course Rosaline is not seen — she is “unseen” in the most casual sense of the phrase.  No one disagrees.  The difference is that this article has a very specific definition and critieria that are not the same as the usual definition for “unseen character”.  For example (the following quotes come from the article):  Is Rosaline a “continuing character”?  Does Rosaline “frequently interact with the other characters”?  Does she do anything to “influence current story events”?  The answer to all of these questions is: no.  And it’s more pertinant to ask: Is there a reliable source that suggests that she has any of the criteria that this article requires for her inclusion?  The answer again is: No.  In fact, the best source that the our mysterious IP friend offers seems to discount Rosaline’s signifigance to such a degree that she should be excluded.  The dispute is about sources, which is the heart and soul of Wikipedia: Do any sources support the idea that Rosaline should be included — based on the criteria that is in the article?  If you can find one, that would be great.  Also, forgive me, but your role as a “Third Party” is not simply to pop in and take sides.  You need to demonstrate to one and all that you understand the issue, and that you have reasonalby considered the arguments.  Because the contribution of a Third Party is not at all binding, so the quality of what you have to offer is important in order to appear fair and to pursuade all parties that there is an acceptable resolution.  Finally, if your history as an editor goes all the way back to 2006, it isn’t showing up when I look at your history.  I believe you — it may be a glitch in some one of the many computers that are involved in all this.  So I apologize if I’m mistaken, and I assume I am, and I respect the long history that you have as an editor.  I don’t agree with the idea that people can use such a large number of multiple identities so many times on a particular page, and keep their history secret, where as users with an account do not have that advantage.  But if it’s okay with Wikipedia, they probably have their reasons.  I wish I had seen that the dispute was being mischaracterized to you — I’d have spoken up.  StBlark (talk) 17:16, 27 May 2015 (UTC)


 * First of all, I should probably apologize for not laying out a more detailed rationale in my original 3rd opinion response. I normally do, as I did here, and here for example.  In this situation I felt that the IP had already done an excellent job with this edit of laying out sources and making the case for her being an unseen character as defined in this article and I felt I had very little more to offer in terms of rationale than just saying that those sources were quite sufficient.  However, I see what you mean, that it can appear as though I was taking sides and/or didn't understand your objection to Rosaline's inclusion, and for that I apologize.
 * As far as difficulty seeing my contributions, forgive me if you already know this and this isn't the problem, but when you are looking at a person's contribution list you only see their 50 most recent edits. There is a line both at the beginning and end of the list that says, "(newest | oldest) View (newer 50 | older 50) (20 | 50 | 100 | 250 | 500)" and you can click on those links to see older/newer edits. You probably already knew that, in which case I don't know what the technical problem/glitch is, but in case you didn't, now you do.
 * Your current objection to Rosaline is that the article has a line stating that, "They are continuing characters—characters who frequently interact with the other characters and who influence current story events," and you don't feel she meets that prong of the definition. I have three problems with this line of reasoning,
 * First I feel that portion of the definition is ambiguously worded. "Characters who frequently interact with the other characters" could mean characters who, in the universe of the story, frequently interact with other characters or it could mean characters whose repeated interactions with other characters are frequently mentioned in the story. If it is the latter, how many mentions must the character receive to be an unseen character?
 * Second (and related), depending on how one resolves the ambiguity in that sentence, one could make a case that she does meet that prong. If you go with the first interpretation of the sentence, Rosaline is very much a part of the social group occupied by Romeo and Juliet and the other characters in the story, and frequently interacts with other characters in that social group. Moreover, as the IP editor points out, she has an influence on current story events, as Romeo attends the party to see her, thus meeting Juliet, and throughout the remainder of Acts I and II his actions are misinterpreted as him continuing to pine for Rosaline. Under the second interpretation of that sentence, Rosaline is mentioned approximately 10 times, both in Act I and Act II, although not in Act III, IV, or V. Granted none of the mentions of Rosaline are on the order of, "I saw Rosaline last week and she gave me this letter for you", but her existence continues to influence the thoughts and actions of other characters.
 * Third, and most problematic for me, that sentence in the intro is not supported by the source it cites. It cites F. C. Green, "Some Marginal Notes on Eighteenth-Century French Comedy", In:Studies in Modern French Literature Garnet Rees, Eugène Vinaver (eds), p. 135. First of all, it should probably cite pages 133-135, or 137, or possibly further (the Google Books preview cuts off 138 and 139). 135 is the middle of a discussion of the importance of unseen characters in Crispin rival de son maitre, and virtually all the text on that page is discussion of that particular play rather than unseen characters more broadly.  Unseen character is defined on 133, after which the source launches into lengthy examples from various 18th century French works, including Crispin. On 133 it defines invisible character thusly, "The invisible character may best be defined as a character who, although never shown to the audience, nevertheless influences the action of the play." It does not say anything about being a "continuing character who frequently interacts with the other characters". It does go on to cite an example of a character who is not an invisible character, Laurent in La Tartuffe, which might be why someone chose to plop the citation to this source after that sentence, but no where does that source say what the article says it says.  Prior to November 16, 2014 that line about them being a "continuing character" was in the article but was unsourced. With this edit  re-arranged the language of the opening paragraph and appended the Green source to that statement.  I'm unclear why Altenmann thought that source supported that statement; from my reading of that source it does not. I've half a mind to remove that sentence from the definition until a source can be found that actually does support it.
 * At any rate since Green cites Laurent as an example of one who is not an invisible character, let's compare Laurent to Rosaline. Green indicates that Laurent's "function is simply to provide Molière an opportunity to introduce Tartuffe." Laurent is off stage when Tartuffe enters and makes a big show of how pious and religious he is by asking Laurent to go put various religious artifacts away leading Dorine to say, "What affectation and what showing off!" This is one of only 2 mentions of Laurent in the play, the other being one where Dorine says she trusts neither Tartuff nor his Laurent. This is a plot device to show the flaws in Tartuffe's character, whereas Rosaline in Romeo and Juliet is more; she is a plot device to get them to meet, yes, but also Romeo's long history with her influences how other characters interpret Romeo's actions through the play, leading to them not realizing what was going on between him and Juliet until it was too late. Rosaline has a far greater influence on the plot of Romeo and Juliet than Laurent has on the plot of Tartuffe.
 * At any rate, a great deal of what I just said is, to some extent original research, which is fine on a talk page but not in an article. The IP editor has cited no fewer than 6 secondary sources that indicate Rosaline is an unseen character which, as I said in my original response to the third opinion request, is quite sufficient. ~  ONUnicorn (Talk&#124;Contribs) problem solving 20:58, 27 May 2015 (UTC)


 * It’s too late. You don’t get a second chance.  I appreciate your admitting that you erred, and your suggestion that you apologize for it is big of you, of course it’s not required.  But by screwing up the way you did you sacrificed any claim to objectivity that you may have had before you got mired in all this.  Why did you arrive here on this talk page?  It’s because you were attracted to the possiblity that you could help out by offering an objective point-of-view as a “Third Party”.  Which is noble of you.  But why are you still here attempting to take a second stab at this?  It’s because you screwed up and you want to protect yourself from looking foolish, and so you have a bias to support one side or the other — the side that will help you save face.  You’ve become a partisan, and now you’re pretending to be an objective “Third Party”.  You can’t.  It’s too late.  You also have made it impossible for this dispute to attempt to seek a proper and truly objective “Third Party”, because now there are three of us, and the “Third Party” dispute resolution is designed for a Two Person dispute, and  there’s no such concept as a “Fourth Party” dispute resolution. I read what you said, it is a lot of, as you admit, original research, I don’t agree with your opinions, but I don’t like to debate editor’s opinions — I prefer to stick to the rules and find sources.  Unicorn, you’ve just muddied the waters for no good reason, and cluttered this page with biased words that few people will bother to read, except me.  Resolving disputes is not for everybody.  There needs to be some criteria for a character to be notable enough to be on a page of Wikipedia.  You seem to think that we can open the doors and allow the entire off-stage population of Verona to be considered unseen characters — which of course in some sense they are.  But that would render this whole entire article meaningless.  Rosaline interacts with exactly nobody.  Romeo would have gone to the party with or without her — she’s an excuse.  Your opinions are yours and yours alone, except of course they also are those of the IP that I referred to as a sock puppet.  StBlark (talk) 03:15, 28 May 2015 (UTC)


 * You may be correct that this article needs some help up there at the top — why don’t you see what you can do? StBlark (talk) 03:22, 28 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Why am I still here "attempting to take a second stab at this"? Because the opinion needed further clarification.  At any rate, a third opinion is just that, a third opinion.  Take it or leave it as you both wish. I might take a stab and fixing the intro, but not right this minute. ~  ONUnicorn (Talk&#124;Contribs) problem solving 16:44, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Reso;ponce to ping: re: I'm unclear why Altenmann thought that source supported that statement;. Sorry, my bad I put wrong page number. I fixed this and also made it clear what exactly is referenced. By the way what the heck is continuing character? -M.Altenmann >t 15:54, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the correction on the citation. As for your question, believe it or not, when the page was originally created in 2002 the entire text read "Television situation comedies sometimes include continuing characters who are never seen or heard by the audience, but only described by other characters." The term "continuing characters" has been in the article ever since. In that context, whoever wrote the sentence must have meant characters who are referenced without appearing in multiple episodes. Only now, some 13 years later, have we gotten around to noticing that it both is original research and doesn't have a clear meaning anyway. 99.192.70.142 (talk) 16:58, 2 June 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.65.83)

An effort to improve the lead and repair the use of sources
I have made some edits that accord accurately with the sources. And I have added a second source for the reference to the short story by Voltaire.

This is only a first step towards improving the article. It needs work. A definition of “unseen character” is still needed. I wasn’t the editor that discovered the sources, some of which regard Voltaire and the 18th Century. But I preserved them and corrected misrepresentations of them that were in the article.

The example of the short story by Voltaire seems to be based on a problematic definition of “unseen” — since the character is described or portrayed and thus “seen” by the reader at one point in the story. But yet he is said to be unseen. This kind of problem might be true of any novel or short story that claims to have an “unseen character”.StBlark (talk) 02:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I’ve also added references and edited the beginning section. StBlark (talk) 15:18, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * If the example is problematic why are you adding it? The description says that the reader "sees" the character, just that one other character does not see the character in one scene. How does that fit at all? That example is unhelpful, especially in the absense of a clarification of what counts as an unseen character in the opening. If anything, it is much more likely to confuse any reader of the article. 99.192.86.163 (talk) 22:29, 2 July 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)
 * Since you ask, I’ll be glad to explain my handling of the content regarding the short story by Voltaire: First, I was not the editor that added it to the article.  It was there in the lead for a long time, and it was being used incorrectly.  So, I did the research: I found a copy of the original essay, as well as the French language short story, I read them both and was able to correct the content in the article so that it accurately represented the source. I might have removed that content myself, but Wikipedia somewhere suggests that you should not simply remove content that is supported by a reliable source. You should first, correct it, and second, discuss it on the talk page. Those steps were followed, and I think the result is okay. StBlark (talk) 03:55, 3 July 2015 (UTC)


 * 99.129.92 With all due respect, you are wrong to remove the content regarding Maris Crane -- which is good content and supported by reliable sources. You should discuss this on this talk page. I believe you are "Edit Warring" in this case because you repeatedly remove this same content many times. Edit warring:  “An edit war occurs when editors who disagree about the content of a page repeatedly override each other's contributions. Editors engaged in a dispute should reach consensus or pursue dispute resolution rather than edit warring. Edit warring is unconstructive and creates animosity between editors, making it harder to reach a consensus. Users who engage in edit wars risk being blocked or even banned. An editor who repeatedly restores his or her preferred version is edit warring regardless of whether their edits were justifiable: "but my edits were right, so it wasn't edit warring" is no defense.”  I have put it back.  You also are not following  suggestion that content must be supported by reliable sources and not supported by a WP editor's opinion.  StBlark (talk) 04:08, 3 July 2015 (UTC)


 * This character is an "unseen character" according to reliable sources. Wikipedia relies on Reliable Sources not the opinion of WP editors — this is what editor pointed out to you during the discussion on the Dispute resolution noticeboard.  That discussion can be found here: []. If you disagreed with him, you could have spoken up at that time. On the page Edit warring it says that “an editor who repeatedly restores his or her preferred version is edit warring regardless of whether their edits were justifiable: ‘but my edits were right, so it wasn't edit warring’ is no defense.” So many editors feel that this character belongs on the page, usually they have attempted to add her name to this page or the have expresses their views on the talk page.  Editors such as: Peterdjones,142.197.105.105, HRBlockhead, 162.58.82.136, 2601:7:380:E17:186A:2970:4AF4:7E09, 86.132.124.171, Legacypac, 142.177.25.163, 66.183.62.83, 2001:468:c80:4125:894d:e626:ecff:17ac, 71.254.220.224, 72.148.156.237, 65.32.196.87, ÀrdRuadh21, Jkta97, 82.25.162.97, Rothorpe.

On this talk page editor says that to have a page like this without Maris from Frasier “is just wrong”. You obviously have a different opinion, but Editor’s opinions shouldn’t be used to delete reliable sources.

The list is actually much longer — I just took a few that I came across that have to do with this character. In the history of this article it can be seen that you have reverted hundreds of other editor’s contributions. This meets the description of “Edit Warring” found on Edit warring.

Regarding your comment “If you think I am edit warring, take that complaint to the appropriate place.” I should point out that in the discussion that you and I had on the Dispute resolution noticeboard that was moderated by Steven Zhang you agreed that we would bring that discussion to this page, and Steven agreed that he would oversee this discussion. So this seems tak page seems like an “appropriate place”. StBlark (talk) 11:19, 4 July 2015 (UTC)


 * (1) Maris is not an unseen character, so she doesn't belong on the page. (2) Primary sources (the actual episodes themselves where she is directly observed) trump any secondary claim that inaccurately reports that she is an unseen character. Just as it does not matter how many sources say that Bogart said "Play it again, Sam", the film Casablanca itself trumps them all as the source that shows it didn't happen. If you would like to know more about these episodes, read the "Maris Crane" section on this page above where they are named. (3) It is not edit warring to remove content that is in error when added despite discussion that shows it is not valid information. If you think I am edit warring, take that complaint to the appropriate place. (4) it is not my opinion that Maris is directly observed by the audience of the show. The show is the evidence it is a fact that it happened. And more than once. (5) This page is NOT a list. That means that even if Maris is an example of an unseen character that she need not be mentioned on the page as not ALL examples are needed or desired. So even if she were an unseen character, the page doesnt need her on it 99.192.82.53 (talk) 16:59, 3 July 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

This character is an "unseen character" according to reliable sources, and belongs on this page. Wikipedia relies on Reliable Sources not the opinion of WP editors — this is what editor pointed out to you during the discussion on the Dispute resolution noticeboard. That discussion can be found here: []. If you disagreed with him, you could have spoken up at that time. On the page Edit warring it says that “an editor who repeatedly restores his or her preferred version is edit warring regardless of whether their edits were justifiable: ‘but my edits were right, so it wasn't edit warring’ is no defense.” So many editors feel that this character belongs on the page, usually they have attempted to add her name to this page or they have expressed their view on the talk page. Editors such as: Peterdjones,142.197.105.105, HRBlockhead, 162.58.82.136, 2601:7:380:E17:186A:2970:4AF4:7E09, 86.132.124.171, Legacypac, 142.177.25.163, 66.183.62.83, 2001:468:c80:4125:894d:e626:ecff:17ac, 71.254.220.224, 72.148.156.237, 65.32.196.87, ÀrdRuadh21, Jkta97, 82.25.162.97, Rothorpe. To name a few.

On this talk page editor says that to have a page like this without Maris from Frasier “is just wrong”. You obviously have a different opinion, but WP editor’s opinions shouldn’t be used to delete reliable sources, as you keep doing. In the history of this article it can be seen that you have reverted hundreds of other editor’s contributions. This meets the description of “Edit Warring” found on Edit warring.

Regarding your comment “If you think I am edit warring, take that complaint to the appropriate place.” I should point out that in the discussion that you and I had on the Dispute resolution noticeboard that was moderated by Steven Zhang you agreed that we would bring that discussion to this page, and Steven agreed that he would oversee this discussion. So this talk page seems like an “appropriate place”.

You should stop reverting over and over again, 99.192.82.53, and have this discuss. StBlark (talk) 11:19, 4 July 2015 (UTC)


 * (1) Wikipedia policy of being bold, reverting, then discussing (see WP:BRD) makes it clear that if material is added (in this case the Maris material) and objected to it can be reverted, but then the next move is DISCUSS, not RE-ADD AND DISCUSS. Please observe Wikipedia policies if you want constructive progress. So far you have not, as you did in the original discussion of Rosaline. (2) The primary source, the episodes themselves, prove beyond all doubt that Maris does not count as an unseen character. Why is the primary source - the very best source possible in a case like this - not sufficient for you? 99.192.78.137 (talk) 12:47, 4 July 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

Maris Crane isn't an unseen character
It seems some people are having trouble accepting the fact that Maris Crane is not an unseen character despite the fact that episodes themselves as primary sources provide definitive evidence for this. An unseen character is one that not directly observed by the audience. In the episode "Voyage of the Damned" (1997) the audience sees a shadow silhouette of Maris and hears her gargle. A gargle is a sound made by a person that is directly observed by the audience. In the Episode "Rooms With a View" (2002) Maris is seen lying in a hospital bed. This also is a direct observation of the character. She does not count as a valid example.

Even if we allowed inaccurate and less reliable secondary sources to trump the primary source, the article as it stands does not even properly source the claim that she is unseen. One source is from a 1995 publication, which cannot possible be seen as one that can support a claim about a character on a show that ran from 1993-2004. If an actress had been hired in 1996 and Maris made a main character on the show that source would still exist claiming she is unseen. It has no weight, especially given Maris' appearances in 1997 and 2002. There also is offered as a source Hatch's Plotbank by Laurence Hatch and published by Laurence Hatch Press. It should be immediately obvious that this is a self-published book by some random person online and does not meet Wikipedia's standards of reliable sources for anything.

It is odd when such obviously bad sources like these are included in the article and even re-added when it is explained that they are poor "sources" yet the primary source is not accepted. Some people like to claim that Sherlock Holmes never said "Elementary, my dear Watson" and tons of sources will tell you he never did. But what so many of those sources seem to be unaware of is that while Holmes never said it in any of the books, he did say it in the TV series which ran from 1939-1946 when he was played by Basil Rathbone. You can pile up all the sources you want that claim that he never said it, but this clip from the show - - trumps them all. A primary source always can definitively disprove a negative claim. It is always the most reliable source of all in such cases. 99.192.78.137 (talk) 13:32, 4 July 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)
 * I agree with the IP here. If the source is provably wrong, then it cannot be considered "reliable source". And by the way, episodes themselves are not "primary sources" in the context of this discussion, they are "directly observable facts". -M.Altenmann >t 14:59, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
 * 99.192, we agree on some things. You point out two exceptions, but Maris Crane can be considered completely “unseen” for the first few years of the series. And, also, if each screen play is considered to stand alone as a particular screenplay, she is “unseen” in a large number of individual shows. So I have added Maris to the article, and I have incuded the two exceptions that you mention. The referrences include newspapers and websites. StBlark (talk) 11:22, 5 July 2015 (UTC)


 * According to the Minor characters on Frasier list: "Maris makes only two onscreen "appearances": once in the episode "Voyage of the Damned" when her shadow is seen through a shower curtain (she is spoken to but makes no reply), and again in "Rooms with a View", where she appears in Niles' memory, almost completely covered by bandages after surgery", so she doesn't qualify. Quis separabit?  05:37, 8 March 2016 (UTC)


 * (1) You now admit that over the course of the series she is not an unseen character yet still insist that she is an example. That is a contradiction. (2) Examples on the page are supposed to help clarify the concept under examination, not provide a list of everyone's pet example. By including Maris despite her lack of qualification as an unseen character and then explaining on the page why she doesn't count is not helpful to explaining the concept. (3) In just about all TV Series all of the main characters are absent for some episodes. So by the argument you are trying to make here we could include just about every character that has ever been on television so long as we specify the episode they were absent. That is not helpful as an explanation of the concept of the unseen character. (4) You STILL fail to observe Wikipedia's policy of BOLD, REVERT, DISCUSS by insisting on re-adding the material even while discussion is ongoing. This shows bad faith in dealing with the matter. 99.192.83.10 (talk) 12:38, 5 July 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)


 * I think your definition of 'unseen' is rather literal minded. After all, every character on a radio show is unseen in the literal sense, but The Archers is quite properly included here. Also, in long running series' an unseen character may become a seen one at some point (this article used to refer to the villain Red John in the TV series The Mentalist, who of course was eventually seen and identified, like most detective-story villains). But he was an unseen character for several seasons. Maris's "seenness" is very marginal, clearing intentionally so - playing on the idea of her 'unseen' role within the series. That's quite different from just being absent from individual episodes. You are right that the article should not be about including everyone's pet example, but it should use examples to indicate how the concept is used in different ways. Just adding or just removing. BTW, I've never heard anyone says that the Holmes character never says "Elementary, my dear Watson", since obviously he does in numerous sketch-shows etc. It said that he never says that in the original stories. The Rathbone films were not a TV series, BTW. Paul B (talk) 13:10, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Paul, Thanks for your thoughts on this. The problem, however is it isn't "my" definition of "unseen character". In the last few weeks there was an active discussion on the DNR page that discussed the question of just what the proper definition of an "unseen character" is and several scholarly sources were cited in that discussion. The best definition scholarly sources support does specify conditions that make radio characters either count or not count and so I agree with you and with the page as it stands that the characters from The Archers do qualify, but that voiced radio characters do not. Voices are "direct" observations of characters thus making them not count as "unseen". I also would agree with you that Maris is about as close as one can get to a character being an "unseen character" without actually being one. But given that it is nit an objective of the examples given to be a complete list, merely an instructive one, it is better to only list characters that are "unseen", not almost "unseen".


 * The idea of how a character in a television series is unseen for some time then becomes seen might be an interesting additional section to the article. It might also be interesting to include cases of characters in plays or films who are unseen until the very end and how their absence is used dramatically. But such a section and discussion would need to be well sourced by reliable sources to be included. If you can find some that do that please let me know and I would be glad to help work on such an addition.


 * Finally, as an aside about the Sherlock Holmes example. Just google the phrase "elementary my dear Watson". The first result I get is an article titled "Sherlock Holmes Never Said 'Elementary, My Dear Watson'". The sixth item is an AV Cub article with the same title. The eighth item also claims he never said it. Your example of sketch show characters is something most people would say does not count as these are non-canonical appearances of the character. But the TV Series where Rathbone said it is part of the canon, thus is an important exception. 99.192.85.113 (talk) 18:48, 7 July 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)
 * Arthur Conan Doyle died in 1930 before television. See canon of Sherlock Holmes for the normal definition. I also think you are taking "unseen character" too literally. Maris Crane is often called an unseen character or similar terms (just Google "Maris Crane" ("unseen" OR "never seen")). She is one of the most notable unseen characters and often included in lists of famous unseen characters. In a tv series, a character who is mentioned in many episodes but whose face is never fully seen is often called unseen. It's a running gag in many shows and it doesn't change their general status as unseen if a few episodes taunt the viewers with partial displays like their back or with something covering their face. I don't know sources which try to make a formal definition of unseen in the context of a tv series but if a character is frequently called unseen then those sources shouldn't be dismissed as wrong just because we once got a glimpse of their left ear or whatever. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:02, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * (1) Sherlock Holmes was mentioned as an analogy. It is not worth belaboring it. The point is still the same. In this kind of case a primary source trumps secondary sources for reliability no matter how many secondary sources get it wrong. (2) I honestly do not know how an encyclopedia can be "too literal". The point here is precision, so if a character is not an "unseen character" then she isn't. "Close enough" is fine for other contexts, but not for an encyclopedia. If we see an ear we see an ear, so the character is not an "unseen character". Such a character makes a poor example to illustrate the concept when other examples are available for us to use. (3) You seem to be confusing the idea of an "unseen character" as a technical term with the words "unseen" and "character". Let me explain by reference to the term "Ghost character". The Wikipedia page for that term tells us that a "ghost character" is "a character who is mentioned as appearing on stage, but who doesn’t do anything, and who seems to have no purpose". There are eight "ghost characters" from the plays of Shakespeare listed on that page, but the ghost of Hamlet's father is not one of them. His father is a ghost and he is a character, but he is not a "ghost character" in the sense the page discusses. That's because the term "ghost character" does not mean any character who is a ghost. Similarly, the term "unseen character" does not mean any character who is unseen. By that definition all radio characters are unseen characters, since you cant see them ever. Many pop culture publications like to talk about characters you never see, so they don't mean the same thing by "unseen character" that scholars in the history of theater and literature mean. This is why improving and expanding on the definition with reference to scholarly sources is needed here. To make it clear that the term has a legitimate literary history. 99.192.85.113 (talk) 03:59, 8 July 2015 (UTC) (=99.192.92.80)

Dulcinea del Toboso
Dulcinea del Toboso was just removed from the page with an edit summary reading "contested point on talk page -- not clear if Dulcinea even exists; she appears to be a figment of Quijote's imagination." Well, let's go straight to the source. Chapter One of Volume One of Don Quixote ends like this:
 * "There was, so the story goes, in a village near his own a very good-looking farm-girl with whom he had been at one time in love, though, so far as is known, she never knew it nor gave a thought to the matter. Her name was Aldonza Lorenzo, and upon her he thought fit to confer the title of Lady of his Thoughts; and after some search for a name which should not be out of harmony with her own, and should suggest and indicate that of a princess and great lady, he decided upon calling her Dulcinea del Toboso—she being of El Toboso—a name, to his mind, musical, uncommon, and significant, like all those he had already bestowed upon himself and the things belonging to him." (from the translation by John Ormsby)

On several occasions later in the novel Sancho Panza also indicates that he believes that Don Quixote is talking about Aldonza Lorenzo when he speaks of Dulcinea del Toboso. So there is no question that this character actually exists and that she does not ever actually appear in the book, so is an unseen character. To make the point more precisely about the nature of Don Quixote's confusion I will rewrite the text slightly when I re-add it. Remember that Quixote is very delusional about his own identity, not only imagining that he is a great knight when in reality he is an old man. His real name is "Alonso Quixano" but, we are also told in Chapter One, "he made up his mind to call himself 'Don Quixote,'" just as with Aldonza Lorenzo "he decided upon calling her" a different name as well. Being delusional about the identity of his "great lady", as he is with his own identity, does not mean she (or he) does not exist. 99.192.64.192 (talk) 02:02, 9 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Being delusional does call a lot into question. Even if Aldonza Lorenzo really did exist, she is not really Dulcinea. Most importantly, the woman, regardless of her name, is not a character in the story. It would be like taking every person who is referenced third-hand in any and every work of fiction and treating those persons as "unseen characters" in the play/work, IMHO, as opposed to concentrating on those directly involved in the machinations or actions or reactions that move the story, although now that I am writing this I concede you may have a point re Dulcinea but I am not sure. Yours, Quis separabit?  02:10, 9 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Two thoughts: First about this: "she is not really Dulcinea". But the passage I quoted shows that this is not true. Alonso Quixano decides to call himself "Don Quixote" and imagines he is a great knight (which he is not). He also decides to call Aldonza Lorenzo "Dulcinea del Toboso" and imagines she is a great Lady (which she is not). So saying Dulcinea does not exist would be like saying Don Quixote does not exist. Even though these are not their given names and they are not the great people he imagines, they are still real. Second about this: "the woman, regardless of her name, is not a character in the story". If what you say here is true then there would be no such thing as an unseen character at all, since they all (in every medium) are people who are referred to but who never appear. You seem to think it is a problem that every person referred to (even once just in passing) be counted as an unseen character, but I don't see why that is a problem. Not even all seen characters are important, so there can also be lots of unseen characters of little or virtually no importance. The reason unseen characters are worth talking about at all (and have been talked about by many literary scholars) is because they can be important despite being unseen. This is especially true in theatre, which is where the term originates. 99.192.64.192 (talk) 02:24, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Considering the idea that Rosaline is "never" seen
The suggestion that Rosaline is “never” seen in the play Romeo and Juliet needs to be reconsidered, because in fact she does appear during the banquet scene in various productions. And also in the script itself, in the stage directions, those entering to attend the banquet are described as “guests” and “others of [Capulet’s] house”, which would certainly include Rosaline in both categories. In the script, Rosalyn’s name is on Capulet’s guest list, and her attendance is anticipated and discussed by Romeo, Mercutio, Capulet, and Benvolio. I think it’s safe to say that there’s no reliable source that would suggest that Rosaline would not attend Capulet’s banquet for some reason. In fact, the Shakespearean scholar, Marjorie Garber, in her book, Shakespeare After All, states that Rosaline is “glimpsed” only once in the play — “at the Capulet ball”. Rene Weis, the editor of the play in Arden Shakespeare’s third edition, says “directors will have to decide whether or not she should be identified and if so how she should look next to Juliet.” And as can be seen in theatre programs and listed on the IBDB (Internet Broadway DataBase), and other sources, theatre directors have indeed cast Rosaline in various productions throughout the years, and actresses have played the part. For one example, in the production that starred Laurence Olivier as Romeo, and Vivien Leigh as Juliet, Rosaline was played by the actress Hazel Brown. Lisa Emery is another actress who played Rosaline on Broadway. Saying that Rosaline “never” appears seems too strong, when there are so many exceptions. Perhaps the description of Rosaline in this article needs to be corrected somehow, but it may be that there is a better example than her — there may be a character out there that is truly never seen. I attempted to edit the article to deal with Rosalyn, and I included references, but another editor, in good faith, reverted my edits, and suggested that this needs to be discussed on this talk page. So if anyone has any thoughts about this, please feel free to express them. Clockchime (talk) 18:22, 4 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Firstly, if your suggestion is right and there is good reason to believe it is unclear whether or not Roaline appear onstage or, worse, good reason to believe that she does appear, then we would have to conclude that she is not a good example of an unseen character. As a result, the correct thing to do would not be to add more text to the page explaining her appearances, but to remove her altogether as she would no longer be a good illustration of the concept. So whatever we decide, adding text to the page is not the right answer.


 * Secondly, There are already two sources cited in the article that say she is an unseen character. There are many other scholarly sources that also say the same. Pointing out what the stage directions say does not dispute this. If they said "Enter guests, including Rosaline" then it would be clear she does appear on stage. But the fact that we know she is at the ball and stage directions say "enter guests" is not enough. It is WP:OR to assume that she is one of these guests when she is not named. We need scholarly sources that draw that conclusion in order for it to have any weight. So do we have any of those? Let's look at your examples:


 * The quotation from Garber's book is not clear. Is she saying that Rosaline is glimpsed only once in the play by Romeo or by the audience? If she means glimpsed by Romeo, then that seems right, but also does not mean that she is on stage when he glimpses her. The dialogue does make it clear that he sees her at the ball, but not that she is on stage when he sees her. You would have to provide more context for the quotation to show she meant glimpsed by the audience, if that is what she meant.


 * The passage by Weis in the Arden Shakespeare says, right before the part you quoted, "no entry is given for Rosaline in the text." So what Weis is saying is that Shakespeare did not put Rosaline on the stage, but directors can decide to do so anyway. Your examples of a Broadway production where she does appear on stage is an example of a director making that choice. But directors choosing to present Shakespeare plays differently from how they are written is nothing new. For example, the fact that Richard Loncraine's 1995 film of Richard III sets the action in a fictional England of the 1930s does not change the fact that Shakespeare set the play in the fifteenth century. It just means that directors will take liberties with a text for artistic reasons. Directors do this with Shakespeare all the time.


 * So on the whole I am not convinced there is a dispute. It seems to me that scholars agree that Rosaline is an unseen character, but some directors have decided in some productions to put her on stage anyway. In fact, one source you cited in one of your edits to the page showed an example of a director who even gave Rosaline some lines. But occasional choices directors make to not represent the text exactly as written (stage productions and film adaptations also commonly shorten Shakespeare plays as they are considered too long for a modern audience) do not mean that there is a dispute about whether Shakespeare has her appear. 99.192.81.190 (talk) 19:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Your interpretations of what Garber and Weis are saying and mine are wildly, ridiculously, crazily different. So, let’s just say that we each, in good faith, don’t agree whatsoever on that score.  I believe that this article, as it stands, is misleading regarding Rosaline.  This is supported by many reliable sources, Garber and Weis included, as well as Bullen, and the Oxford University edition, and even the text of the second quarto of 1599, which refers to Rosaline as an invited guest, and, when the party begins, its stage directions call for the entrance of “all the guests”.    The truth is that the play, Romeo and Juliet, has other “unseen characters”, who actually do not appear.  In fact, it is the action of “unseen characters” that results in the death of both Romeo and Juliet:  This occurs off-stage when the man who is supposed to deliver an urgent message encounters “unseen characters” who trap him and board him up inside of a house, which eventually results in Juliet’s suicide and Romeo’s.  Or what about the “unseen character” who kills Rosencrantz and Guildenstern in Hamlet?  Or the pirate king?  Or what about Cleopatra in Julius Ceasar … ?    Clockchime (talk) 14:52, 7 April 2016 (UTC)


 * At the end of your reply you mention other possible unseen characters. The point of this discussion is to decide of Rosaline is a good example of an unseen character. The status of other characters in other plays are irrelevant to that question. Also, we can dispense with the description "wildly, ridiculously, crazily". Just saying they are different is enough. But with Garber, it is premature to say they are different. I merely pointed out that more context of Garber's comment is needed to know if she meant Romeo glimpses her once in the play or the audience does. Without being given that context it is impossible to know. With regard to Weis, I quoted him saying "no entry is given for Rosaline in the text." I don't know what could be more clearly a rejection of your interpretation that the stage directions do say that she enters when they say that the "guests" enter. I do not see how he can be read as leaving any room for ambiguity on this point. You also mention Bullen, but don't explain how he supports the idea that Rosaline is on stage, so I will set that one aside.


 * Finally is the very interesting case of the 1599 Quarto publication. Firstly, the source you cite actually changed the stage directions as published in 1599. The original direction, in its entirety, is: "Enter all the guests and gentlewomen to the Maskers". The source you cite has added to this direction, among other things the words "Capulet and his household". The addition of Capulet is obviously meant as a fix to the omission of saying he enters, because he has the first line after that entry, so he has to be on the stage. But the fact that this editor added "and his household" says that they are not included by the description "guests and gentlewomen". Now we know Rosaline is one of Capulet's family, so she could be included as part of "his household". Which means that the Quarto stage direction did not include an entry for Rosaline, since it did not say "his household".


 * It is also important to note that little can be concluded from a close study of stage directions anyway. Scholars will tell you that even in the 1599 Quarto it is not clear if the stage directions were written by Shakespeare or added by directors or other people involved in publishing the play. But even if we do rely strictly on what was published in his lifetime, as the 1599 Quatro was, we know he omitted a stage direction for the entry of Capulet and we know your source extends that omission to describe his "household". The bottom line is there is no clear evidence here at all that Rosaline walks on stage. It seems that Weis thinks the 1599 directions do not include Rosaline, as he says "no entry is given for Rosaline in the text." So I still do not see a clear case made either by the text itself or by scholars that she does appear on stage. I do see, however, lot of scholarly sources that call her an unseen character, so it seems clear to them, at least, that stage directions do not put her on the stage at all. 99.192.69.109 (talk) 17:34, 7 April 2016 (UTC)


 * I stand by what I said previously. Your ideas and mine, regarding Garber, Weis and now even the Second Quarto, are, I maintain, ridiculously different.  Which is fine as far as it goes, but it tends to make reasonable discussion pointless if we’re too far apart, or if the discussion becomes too fallacious, or misunderstood, or suffers from any of the common problems in discussions. And sometimes piling on words doesn’t help.  So, let’s just agree that you and I each, in good faith, don’t agree whatsoever. I believe that this article, as it stands, is misleading regarding Rosaline. But then, it can be argued that Wikipedia ought to have a few imperfections, if only to allow it to be as democratic as it is.  We, as editors, should try to do the best we can.  Good luck and cheers.  Clockchime (talk) 16:44, 11 April 2016 (UTC)


 * You say Weis shows their is doubt about whether Rosaline is on stage. I quote Weis saying "no entry is given for Rosaline in the text." You say "let’s just agree that you and I each, in good faith, don’t agree whatsoever." You remind me of Black Knight who, after losing both arms and legs says "All right, we'll call it a draw." I don't say that to be rude, but to point out that there is an important question here and it seems to me absurd to say we just agree to disagree when the facts - from a source you introduced to the discussion - so clearly do not support your claim. You might argue that Wikipedia "ought to have a few imperfections," but you say it as if you have decided to let me and the article be wrong for the sake of democracy. That is just nonsense. Wikipedia ought to get it right. In this case it has. 99.192.75.211 (talk) 18:41, 11 April 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't agree at all with what you're saying. Weis suggests that a director may choose to identifying the character of Rosaline on stage in the banquet scene. Or a director may choose not to identify her.  And Weis suggests how a director would need to consider what Rosaline looks like at the banquet, and how she might appear in comparison to Juliet.  In all of those examples, there is an assumption that Rosaline is on stage, and if she’s on stage then she must have entered at some point. The stage directions may not provide her with her own entry, but the stage directions provide a group entrance to a group that would certainly include her.  The quote you use, which is a fragment of a sentence,  shows Weis simply describing the stage directions in the quarto, and pointing out that Rosaline has not been given a particular entry.  Weis is not at all offering the interpretation of the stage directions that you imagine. (The fact is that the text of the second quarto does not include entries or exits in many situations for characters who clearly enter or exit.)  If you read Weis’s entire sentence, it does not at all suggest that Rosaline should not be seen at the banquet — that sentence has a different idea. There are a good number of sources, Weis included, to support Rosaline’s appearance in this play, and this article, as it stand now, is misleading to ignore that or to suggest otherwise.  Clockchime (talk) 12:08, 14 April 2016 (UTC)


 * You are working very hard to try to justify that which the sources do not support. So let's remember the key clause: "no entry is given for Rosaline in the text." You refer to the rest of the sentence, so let's look at that. Firstly, Weis points out that the audience will expect to see Rosaline on stage. This is reasonable, given that Romeo has gone on and on about how much he loves her and has said the only reason he is going to the ball is to see her again. But audience expectation does not mean she appears. So that does not cast doubt on her not being on stage. Weis then says "directors will have to decide whether or not she should be identified". You claim that this means that it is unclear whether or not she is supposed to be on stage, so it's up to directors to decide. But that is nonsense. Weis says Shakespeare does not put Rosaline on the stage ("no entry is given for Rosaline in the text.") but that audiences expect to see her, so a director will have to decide whether to do the play as written and go against expectations or to put her on the stage to meet audience expectations. If Weis really thought that Shakespeare intended Rosaline to be on the stage there would be nothing to decide. The fact that there is a decision at all, according to Weis, indicates that he thinks Shakespeare does not put her on the stage.


 * The simple fact is the article has two sources that clearly and unequivocally say that Rosaline is unseen. A quick google search got me a handful more. You have offered no source where some scholar clearly says "Rosaline does appear on stage in the original text of the play" or even "there is doubt as to whether or not Shakespeare intended Rosaline to be on stage". All you have is one source you are trying to use that says "no entry is given for Rosaline in the text," one you will not provide any more context to disambiguate, and your own original research offering an interpretation of stage directions. Does any scholar agree with you? Show me one that says "the stage directions indirectly say Rosaline enters, so she actually does appear on stage." You have offered nothing that comes close to doing any of this. Thus is not "merely a flesh wound". You literally have no legs to stand on. 99.192.71.113 (talk) 14:53, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

This whole mountain of words is so rich in fallacy that it’s become nonsense. You repeatedly claim that I am saying things that I haven’t said, and then you misrepresent what I have said, and I’m afraid you do the same thing to the sources. The “straw man” fallacy appears to be your primary tool. If we two fools trash this conversation and reduce it to gibberish, then can either of us, in good faith, claim that we have had a good discussion? Nope. I stand by everything I have said, and unfortunately you and I have missed the opportunity that this page provides. I hope for you it hasn’t been too much of a bother or waste of time. All the best, Clockchime (talk) 16:48, 15 April 2016 (UTC)


 * There are two (and only two) possibilities. (1) Scholars are divided about whether or not Rosaline appears on stage, yet mysteriously neither you nor I can find a single scholarly source that says "Scholars are divided about whether or not Rosaline appears on stage" or (2) You are just plain wrong about there being any dispute about this point and you have just badly misunderstood the two sources you have tried to offer to support your claim. One possibility is wildly implausible. One is not. Guess which is which? I don't see any missed opportunities. The article was and remains accurate. 99.192.53.136 (talk) 22:34, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

To say that there are “only two options” is a fallacy, it’s a fallacy known as a false dilemma or a false dichotomy — there’s a Wikipedia page that describes it. It is yet another fallacy being used in this discussion (see above). Fallacies wreck discussions. The fact remains, that the claim in this article that Rosaline is “never seen” is misleading and doesn’t take into account the fact that she is often seen and her appearance is support by a number of reliable sources. Clockchime (talk) 11:53, 6 May 2016 (UTC)


 * You seem to think that there could never be only two possibilities. But something is a false dilemma if there really are more than two (as opposed to a true dilemma, where in fact there really are only two). If you think this is a false dilemma, please feel free to offer a third possibility to prove that it is false. If you cannot offer one, then it looks like this is not a false dilemma at all. You can re-assert claims you have not been able to substantiate in the hope that if you say it enough times it becomes true, but it remains true you have provided no sources that say that there is any controversy here. Not a single one. 99.192.77.243 (talk) 12:22, 6 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Addendum: The way you use the phrases "never seen" and "often seen" shows you do not even understand what is being said by "Roasline is never seen". The claim is not that "Rosaline never appears on stage in any production of the play". The claim is that "Rosaline is never seen in the play as written". It's like this: It is true to say "Romeo never eats pizza" in the play, but in so saying I am not claiming that there has never been a production of the play where the director decided to have Romeo eat pizza on stage. All that claim is saying is that the play as written does not have him eat pizza. Some directors might decide to have him eat pizza. Some directors might decide to have Juliet do cartwheels. Some directors might decide to put Rosaline on stage. None of that matters to claims about what the play itself contains. So you have entirely missed the point of the claim that she is "never seen". 99.192.77.243 (talk) 12:41, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.

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 * This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you!

Vera from Cheers and Maris from its spinoff Frasier are two of the most recognizable examples of an unseen character in popular culture. As Frasier’s run was ending, its creators (who were also the creaters of Cheers) produced a documentary on the making of Frasier (“Behind the Couch: The Making of Frasier” in the Complete Season 1 DVD collection) in which they confirmed that both Vera and Maris are unseen characters. The producers state that they initially did not want to make Niles's wife Maris an unseen character because they did not want to draw parallels to Vera, Norm's wife on Cheers. They originally intended that she would appear after several episodes, but were enjoying writing excuses for her absence that eventually it was decided she would remain unseen, and after the increasingly eccentric characteristics ascribed to her, no real actress could portray her. This direct confirmation from the creators of both characters that the characters are unseen should be authoritative enough, but there are editors on the Unseen character article who insist on excluding both of these characters.

The exclusionists’ reasoning lies in their direct viewing of episodes of both series. For Maris they refer to an episode where the character is lying in a hospital bed after surgery, completely covered in bandages so that her face cannot be seen, and she has no dialogue, and another where her silhouette only is seen through a shower curtain, and she is “heard” gargling, but has no dialogue. For Vera they refer to an episode where a stand-in has a pie on her face so that you cannot see her face, and no dialogue is spoken by the character. This issue has been discussed back and forth, no consensus has been reached, and the exclusionists continue to delete any addition of these characters to the examples, even when new and more authoritative sources are provided, and then warning the editors who added this information, claiming consensus that is not there. The flaws in the exclusionists’ reasoning are as follows: Instead, we should rely upon the numerous sources that consider these two characters unseen, not the least of which are the creators of both characters, who explicitly said these were unseen characters in “Behind the Couch: The Making of Frasier”. Mmyers1976 (talk) 13:38, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) The article relies entirely on one source for its definition/characteristics of an unseen character: a text on 18th Century French plays. Such a definition that might work for a single stage work is not necessarily going to apply to episodic television that spans 11 years. Maintaining a character as an unseen character for many years, building audience’s expectations, and then teasing the audience with an “appearance” of the character that turns out not to be revealing because the character’s face is not seen and voice is not heard is a deliberate use of the fact that the character is unseen for comedic effect, something that long-running episodic television can take advantage of that 18th Century French theatre cannot.
 * 2) We never see either character’s face. Maris is only seen in silhouette or with her face covered in bandages, and in her only appearance Vera’s face is covered with a pie. These deliberate “near miss”-appearances play the unseen character status of these characters for comedic effect, teasing the audience that they might finally get to see the character, only to disappoint. They are the near-exceptions that prove the rule, if you will, that these characters are unseen.
 * 3) Gargling is not dialogue, it is a sound effect, therefore using it as a claim that Maris, as a distinct character, is “heard” is preposterous.
 * 4) The exclusion of these characters requires editors to apply a very strict definition of “unseen character” in episodic television that is not supported by any reliable sources, and then Wikipedia editors watching episodes of the show and creating their own interpretations of whether these near-appearances violate this unsourced definition. That’s original research, or at best, synthesis.


 * I am replying to @Mmyers1976' well thought-out and impressively framed comments above. I apologize for doing so belatedly, although there is no set time frame and using a lack of resposne within a certain time frame is not a justification to push disputed or contentious claims.
 * As far as Vera (from Cheers), her body (aside from a pie covered face) and her voice were both heard on the series; it doesn't matter in how many episodes. It is quite impossible that someone who is seen and heard can be deemed "unseen". The same is true of Mrs Wolowitz, who was heard on almost every episode of The Big Bang Theory (until the death of the actress (Carol Ann Susi) who portrayed her). That leaves Maris, an admittedly more complicated case, especially as I was not that much of a devotee of the show and missed many episodes. Therefore, I will conditionally restore Maris with the necessary tags, and hope for further editorial input. Quis separabit?  21:00, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Robert, please accept my assurances that my re-adding the information was not me thinking "well he hasn't replied, so I can do what I want." I was following Robert McClendon's suggestion that because there hadn't been any discussion, I should be be bold, in the hopes that it stimulated discussion; I followed his suggestion with more than an inkling of trepidation because I feared it might be perceived as edit warring. But now we are talking, so it's neither here nor there. I appreciate your thoughts on my comments and your reconsideration of Maris. I must admit that while I have seen every episode of Frasier, I have not seen all Cheers episodes, and may have missed ones where her voice is heard. Perhaps as a compromise, it would be appropriate to mention that Vera is popularly thought of as an unseen character, and indeed functioned as an unseen character for much of the series, and in most of the individual episodes where she was mentioned, but was in fact experienced first-hand by the audience in select episodes? Mmyers1976 (talk) 21:43, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
 * No problems. I did not impute anything untoward in your conduct. As far as further action, let's wait a bit and see if our fellow editors can shed some new light. Yours, Quis separabit?  22:02, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * It is important to remember the reason why there are examples on the page and also what is not the reason for them. The page is not a list. It is not the goal of the examples listed to include every example of unseen characters, so even if we agree that Vera and Maris are unseen characters (which I don't) that would not be enough reason alone to require their inclusion. The examples are not intended to be a list of the most significant examples or the most widely believed examples of unseen characters. It is not a "Top 10 List" either. So again, even if Vera and Maris are widely regarded as the most well-known examples of people who are thought to be (emphasis on "thought to be") unseen characters it would not be enough reason alone to require their inclusion on this page.


 * The point of the page is to explain to a reader what an unseen character is and perhaps also to say something about how and why unseen characters are used in various forms of entertainment. There is, as such, no actual need for any examples at all on the page to satisfy that objective. But examples have been included here, as they are on lots of other pages, as an aid to explain the concept. So the idea is that the prose explains it, but if a reader is still unsure whether or not they understand what "unseen character" means, here are some examples that might help you with that. This means that the criteria for examples listed should be (1) Someone that a reader is likely to have heard of before and (2) Someone who is a very clear and unambiguous example of an unseen character. Criterion (1) is important because it won't clarify much if examples are obscure. This is also a reason to have more than just one example - if several are given then the chances a reader is familiar with one of them increases. But criterion (2) is also very important. If the examples list includes people who are not quite unseen characters or only kinda sorta unseen characters, then having them on the page as examples has the danger of misleading readers about what an unseen character is rather than clarifying it. Vera and Maris fail to be clear and unambiguous examples, assuming you think they count as unseen characters at all (and again, I do not think they do).


 * The case for Vera not being an unseen character is irrefutable. We see her entire body with just a pie over her face. That means we see her. It boggles my mind that people sometimes think that you have not seen someone unless you get a full and unobstructed view of their face, but that is nonsense. We only ever see part of a person's body at any given time (it is not possible to see all of them, and we certainly never do for any characters - even if they appear naked) so we only ever see them partially. So a full body view with a pie on the face (and we do see much of her face anyway) makes her seen. That hearing a character is part of the definition of "unseen" (as with many terms of art, trying to read it too literally and assuming you know what it means from that is a mistake) makes it even more clear Vera is not unseen. But even if you still disagree, you have to agree she is not a clear and unambiguous example that would help to clarify the concept. If anything, it could confuse people about the criteria.


 * Maris is a tougher case, to be sure. In one episode we see her silhouette and hear her gargle. In another episode we see her in a hospital bed in a body cast. Is that enough to make her no longer unseen? I think it does. Others might want to disagree and think you need to see or hear more for her to count. But again, even those people must agree that these at least borderline appearances make her serve less well as a clear and unambiguous example of an unseen character. The mere fact that someone can, as I do, dispute that she is unseen based on observations that are made of her in episodes is proof that she is not a clear and unambiguous example. So even if you believe that she is an unseen character, she still should not be used as an example as she could mislead people about what counts and what does not. We should leave out any "examples" that have this grey area.


 * The bottom line is this: If someone reads the page and Vera and Maris are not listed as selected examples of an unseen character is the page sufficient to make it clear to people what an unseen character is? I think it clearly is sufficient without them. So if including either could cloudy the explanation of what an unseen character is, they should be omitted. Clarity of examples is an essential property of them. Popular belief is much less important, if at all. 99.192.79.148 (talk) 13:33, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but your attempt to make a judgement on whether Maris is unseen or not is original research. Numerous reliable sources consider the character to be unseen, and in fact give her as an example of an unseen character, and we go by sources here, not wikipedians' opinions. If you can find a reliable secondary source that says Maris is not an unseen character, then we can discuss, but until then, she stays in. Mmyers1976 (talk) 17:12, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * You have ignored most of my comment and the most important parts of it. Let's for the sake of argument say that you are right and that she is an unseen character. That alone is not sufficient reason to include a mention of her on the page. Please re-read my extensive comments about why (1) the page is not a list, so not all examples of unseen characters will be listed, (2) the point of including examples at all is to explain the concept to people who don't get it, so the most clear and unambiguous examples should be used, which is not the same as the most widely mentioned ones. By this criteria, even if someone thinks she does count as an unseen character, mentioning Maris on the page is not helpful to the page. In fact, it is quite unhelpful.
 * PS - I waited one week after making my previous comment for a reply before removing Maris from the page because I wanted to give the discussion here a chance without seeming to engage in edit warring. You re-added her right away when making your new comment without waiting at all for discussion. In fact, the time stamps say you reverted even before adding a new comment here. It's always better to discuss first then change later after the discussion, not during it. It is more conducive to achieving consensus to do it this way. 99.192.75.162 (talk) 21:02, 18 July 2016 (UTC) (=99.192.79.148)
 * Yes, most of your comment was a recitation of your rationalizations for using your original research/synthesis to decide that reliably sourced information should not be included. As someone who abides by the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia, I am obligated to disregard such original research and remove its influence in articles. Become a registered user, read up on the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia, and you will come to understand this. You say: "Let's for the sake of argument say that you are right and that she is an unseen character. That alone is not sufficient reason to include a mention of her on the page." I am going to throw that right back at you, and say that since multiple reliable sources including the creators of the character call the character unseen, there is no reason NOT to include her. Wikipedia is NOT censored, even for information you just don't like. Reliable sources I provided list Maris Crane as one of the most prominent examples of an unseen character, therefore, if there are to be any examples in this article (as there should be), the inclusion of this character is entirely appropriate. Your only recourse is to find reliable sources that state Maris is NOT an unseen character, which you have failed to do. Mmyers1976 (talk) 20:03, 24 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You are entirely missing the point. You still want to argue about whether or not she is an unseen character, but that is not the question. So let me try to put what the issue is to you again like this: There are probably hundreds of unseen characters that could be used as examples on this page. But the page is not a list and a long time ago (you can see the discussions archived on this talk page) it was decided that examples should be limited. To quote the result of the discussion of a proposal to delete the article that was reached back in 2008 "The result was Keep but keep the list to the absolute minimum". This decision has been the prevailing philosophy for inclusion of examples on the page for eight years now. This is not a recent thing. So having decided that the examples given should be "the absolute minimum" number, it means that editors must decie which ones to include and which ones not to include. This means that some examples of unseen characters will not get mentioned on the page at all. With Maris, as with all other suggested examples, a decision must be made whether or not to include this one on the page NOT based on whether or not she really is an unseen character, but based on other criteria that we need to come up with to decide what to include. I have argued that an an important criterion for deciding which unseen characters to use as examples and which not to use is how clear and unambiguous an example is. An example where there has been some indirect observation of the character (as there uncontroversially has been with Maris) makes it not as good an example to illustrate the concept. Leaving Maris off the list is not censorship, because we already know that SOME examples have to be left off and it is a matter of deciding which ones. You have yet to provide any criteria for choosing one example of an unseen character over another. Until you can do so, your advocacy of one example over others is nothing more than arbitrary. That's not good enough 99.192.82.122 (talk) 22:20, 24 July 2016 (UTC) (=99.192)
 * Actually, I HAVE provided the criteria that MULTIPLE reliable sources have considered Maris Vera among the most significant, notable unseen characters in American television, one reliable source going so far as to call Maris "the greatest unseen character in the history of television comedy". That is MORE THAN "good enough." Relying on the judgement of multiple reliable sources is not "arbitrary," it is the exact opposite, it is the bedrock of Verifiability, which is one of the Core Content Policies of Wikipedia. If you had bothered to create an account here, you might have known this. Mmyers1976 (talk) 19:33, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

It is necessary for me to re-add the information to further dispute resolution with the IP. Robert McClenon recommended I request semi-protection (which has been granted) explicitly for that purpose, the IP only engages in discussion when he is reverting someone's change, and his dynamic IP causes problems with engaging with him, which McClenon has acknowledged, so semi-protection will require him to register to be a single, static user name, and to continue discussion instead of reverting. Without the text being restored, he has no incentive to return (indeed, since he is an IP he isn't even watchlisting). Furthermore, a sysop determined the IP's edits to be "disruptive" (his word) when semi-protecting the page. Per edit warring policy, reverting disruptive edits is NOT edit warring. Last, on Vera, multiple sources consider her to be not just an unseen character, but one of the most prominent in US TV history, so she IS significant for inclusion on the Unseen character page, even if this status should be caveated Mmyers1976 (talk) 18:39, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Covering any other objections that people have to the inclusion of Maris and Vera, they seem to rely on: 1. "This is not a list, we want to limit the number of examples" 2. "Since we want to limit the number of examples, we should only focus on the best, clearest examples." To that I would reply that the Theatre subsection provides 5 examples, the UK Radio/TV subsection provides, 4 examples. Vera/Maris as a combined example (which is appropriate given their close relationship) provides the US TV subsection 5 examples. There is no danger of Vera/Maris making the US TV subsection disproportionately long compared to the other two subsections. Nor is there any danger of the Vera/Maris example making the article too long. If anything, the article is too short, not enough references. Discussion of Vera and Maris provides much-needed substance to this article, and since multiple reliable secondary sources have called Vera and Maris two of the most prominent, (and even most famous, full stop) examples of unseen character in American television history, this thoroughly establishes Vera and Maris as highly notable and culturally very significant to the subject of the article. The exclusion of the most notable examples of a cultural concept is a glaring omission. Furthermore, we must remember the intended function of an example in a Wikipedia article. The article defines and describes a concept, and providing recognized, familiar examples helps the reader say "oh, I know who Maris Crane is, so THAT's what an unseen character is." That doesn't work if the examples are unfamiliar. Ask any American under 60 (or any Brit for that matter) who "Juanita Beasely" (one of the other examples) is, and 99 times out of 100 you will get a blank look. But ask them who Vera from Cheers is, or Maris from Frasier, 99 time out of 100 they will know, and are very likely to volunteer that the characters are never seen. Reverse the question and ask them to provide an example of an unseen character, and Vera and Maris are going to be the most common answers by far. As two characters that have been well documented in multiple sources as the most recognizable unseen characters in the public consciousness, their illustrative usefulness to readers vastly overrides the subjective personal judgements of Wikipedians that they do not meet a strict definition of the concept of an unseen character. Mmyers1976 (talk) 22:10, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

DRN Discussion from last summer
I just came across this DRN discussion from last summer moderated by Steven Zhang that directly discussed the inclusion of examples in this article. My apologies for not looking hard enough to find this previous discussion sooner. The key elements of the moderator's position were given in the following statements: In a nutshell, moderator Steven Zhang's analysis of the issue was that the definition of "unseen character" in the lede is problematic, but if reliable sources say that a character is an unseen character, it is appropriate to put that in the article. Mmyers1976 (talk) 15:56, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "As Wikipedians, it's our role to report on what reliable sources say about a subject, and not necessarily to argue or debate over the content of said reliable sources."
 * "I think we come back to the point about us stating what references state, rather than our interpretation. The lede of the article or the top of the "examples" section" could have something along the lines of "X a claim/state/give Rosaline in William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet as an unseen character, as she is never seen, but is only described." Or go with something similar. This can sometimes be a reasonable compromise. By doing this, we aren't making assumptions, but stating what sources say."
 * "I think we should try and change it to something we can all live with, but I disagree a straight dictionary definition is the way to go here, though we do need something in the article title to describe the concept of an unseen character. If we have sources that describe the concept (which we do, as per 99.192), I would suggest we use those as the basis for the definition in the article title. For inclusions on the list however, we go with citing reliable sources that describe the inclusions as unseen/invisible characters - because it's the reliable sources role to interpret the part characters play in the respective works and determine if they fit the definition, and not ours. (emphasis by Mmyers1976)"
 * "It is still our role as Wikipedians to cite reliable sources that cite the respective characters as an example of an unseen character and not to synthesise that because X character did y and z that they are unseen character (as another but unrelated example, we do not take the fact that someone like Osama Bin Laden was responsible for bombings and state as a result "Osama Bin Laden is a terrorist", we state "Osama Bin Laden has been described by xyz sources as a terrorist"." (emphasis by Mmyers1976)

Request For Comments - examples that Wikipedia editors don't believe qualify
Should the article include examples like Vera Peterson and Maris Crane, which multiple reliable sources consider the most well-known examples of Unseen characters, but which some Wikipedia editors do not believe technically qualify as unseen? Mmyers1976 (talk) 13:51, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: Multiple reliable sources     list Vera Peterson from Cheers and Maris Crane from its spinoff Frasier  as two of, if not the two most widely recognized examples of unseen characters in television history. Despite this, some Wikipedia editors object to their inclusion on the grounds that the editors have themselves observed episodes where the characters were "seen", though their faces were deliberately obscured. These editors say that since these characters are by their judgement problematic, they should not be included in the article, which they believe should have examples kept to a bare minimum. This disagreement has gone on for at least two years with no consensus on the talk page, and even compromises which are reached are later broken by an IP who chose not to participate in the discussion that led to the compromise even though he was notified, and most recently, a DRN discussion which was closed as a failure because none of the editors who oppose inclusion participated.

The arguments for inclusion are:
 * 1) Vera and Maris are considered by multiple, reliable sources to be unseen characters. In a DRN discussion from last summer moderated by Steven Zhang, Zhang reiterated repeatedly that it is "our role to report on what reliable sources say about a subject, and not necessarily to argue or debate over the content of said reliable sources;" it is "the reliable sources role to interpret the part characters play in the respective works and determine if they fit the definition, and not ours;" and "it is still our role as Wikipedians to cite reliable sources that cite the respective characters as an example of an unseen character and not to synthesise that because X character did y and z that they are unseen character." This position was generally agreed with by all who participated in the DRN, which included the IP who now insists on removing sourced examples that do not fit his personal interpretation of an unseen character.
 * 2) Vera and Maris are considered by multiple reliable sources to be the most iconic unseen characters. I understand the arguments of exclusionists that we do not want the article to become an unwieldy list, but it is nowhere near in danger of that happening right now. The way we keep it from becoming listcruft is to a.) limit it to reliably sourced examples, which Vera and Maris are, and b.) limit it to examples that reliable sources consider to be especially prominent, notable examples, which Vera and Maris are.

This issue is compounded by the fact that the definition of "unseen character" provided in the lede is supported solely by sources restricted to looking at the unseen character in live theatre (indeed, until I added a source that examines unseen characters in modern theatre, they were restricted solely to the theatre of the French Enlightenment), and did not address unseen characters in episodic television, where the phenomenon may differ from theatre. The DRN discussion from last summer acknowledged the deficiencies in the definition and the need for improvement, but still maintained "for inclusions on the list however, we go with citing reliable sources that describe the inclusions as unseen/invisible characters - because it's the reliable sources role to interpret the part characters play in the respective works and determine if they fit the definition, and not ours."

Rms125a@hotmail.com (Quis separabit?) attempted a good-faith compromise by putting Vera and Maris in a separate section titled "Disputed 'unseen characters'", but since there are no reliable sources that support the assertion that these characters' unseen status is disputed, "disputed" serves as a weasel word and is original research. Mmyers1976 (talk) 14:53, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Unless there are reliable sources that have directly rebutted assertions that these are unseen characters, or even specifically omitted them from lists of unseen characters in episodic television, I think given the preponderance of sources that have listed them as unseen characters, they should be classified as such. DonIago (talk) 13:17, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The fault lies with the poor definition in the lede. An unseen character may well be glimpsed in some way and still remain for all that an unseen character, since the term refers to a dramatic function. A character that functions as such, is one. The point in the examples given is precisely that the audience is teased with a glimpse of a figure that have become used to regarding as unseen. Those moments have little meaning otherwise. The glimpse of the unseen character, or the overheard sound of one, functions to reinforce its status as an unseen character, not to invalidate it. The examples ought to be included without caveat.  • DP •  {huh?} 15:48, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, the problem here is the disconnect between the definition, which is currently routed in theater, and the familiarity of our current editors, who are more familiar with recent TV. The usage by writers discussing TV shows covers characters where the fact that the audience doesn't get to see them is a bit of a running gag. Note that our opening is sourced to Studies in Modern French Literature and The Art of Voltaire's Theater. Whatever one might think of the pseudo-highbrow references that pepper Frazier, the show clearly is of a different species than anything Voltaire set to paper. This article, then, is a bit of a Frankenstein monster, with characters "not directly observed" bolted onto characters we never get a good look at, but may glimpse and hear. (Those of my era will recall Charlie Townsend, an unseen character we hear and see regularly, though we never see his face.) My guess is we're really talking about two related but different phenomena that -- though accident of word choice and translation -- happen to share the same name. If we had better sources, the article would discuss the origins of the phrase and the origins of the phenomena. We don't have those sources.
 * First things first. I'm going to yank the unsourced examples as unsourced. They certainly are not helping matters. If anyone has a problem with that bold move, feel free to revert me and we can have a discussion that will frequently mention WP:SYN. Next, I would suggest that we need to hold on to whatever sourced material we do have while restructuring the article.
 * Restructuring? Who said anything about restructuring? I did, just now. We have some strange uses of sources here. First, we have "unseen character[1]". Yes, I'm sure the phrase exists and do not need a source for it. Next, we have a second source focused on 18th French drama being used to give a definition. We can quote a specialized source on particle physics to define "unionized" and write and article that implies most steel workers have not gained or lost electrons, but we should explain that that particular use of the the word comes from physics (where something might not be ionized) while steel workers belong to unions. We need sourcing for the TV culture use of "unseen" and a paragraph giving the varying definitions. This will hopefully quiet our discomfort at seeing (via satellite) the "unseen" Mrs. Wolowitz and similar situations. If we find such sourcing, the article evolves, everyone's happy and we can all have a beer while discussing the evolution of high art over the centuries.
 * Should we be unable to find sources for the varying usages, I'd suggest we have a problem: a non-notable subject riding in on the coattails of a notable one. The usage in theater seems to be well sourced while the use in TV seems to be mostly mentions of examples. I suspect the solution is an article that primarily discusses the first, with a well-isolated subsection giving the examples of the second.
 * TL;DR version: I'm killing the unsourced stuff. I think we should keep everything that's sourced and see what we can make of it. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 21:00, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I understand where you are coming from, but looking at the edit history, the article started out as an article (list, really) about unseen characters on TV, and all the Enlightenment-era French theatre sources were found and added later to answer criticism that the article was just a bunch of examples and had no general discussion/sourcing of the general concept of an unseen character. My concern would be letting these sources direct the focus of the article toward live stage theatre, with an emphasis on 17-18th Century French theatre might not be the best approach. The concept of an unseen character is a much broader concept, to narrow the concept just because we are having trouble finding the sources that discuss it seems like the tail wagging the dog. I think if Enlightenment-French theatre stuff can't be reconciled with the rest of the article it could be moved out of the lede and into a somewhat isolated subsection on theatre. Mmyers1976 (talk) 21:24, 12 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I would suggest that the assumption that we are dealing with two different things might not be right. It's not different in Chekhov than Fraiser or that US DIY sitcom with the guy in the hat over the fence. It's just that it's not a subject anyone writes about all that much. In both cases, you're dealing with a dramatic phenomenon, not a theatrical/cinematic/televisual one, so the difference of medium makes no difference. It's not a Frankenstein article, but fleshing it out would require a fair bit of research--screenwriting manuals firstly, I would imagine.  • DP •  {huh?} 21:27, 12 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The definition in the lede is fatally weak, it’s nothing but a dictionary definition, and as such it will only lead to endless arguments on the talk page. Plays often have thousands of off-stage characters, like the various armies or townspeople in Shakespeare.  It is rarely of interest to say that a character who is mentioned does not appear.  This topic may be of interest when an unseen character has some kind of function or impact because it is “unseen”.  Then it becomes interesting as a “device” to ask: How does the playwright accomplish that?  And what purpose does it serve? etc.  I imagine sit-coms might be a fertile ground to find various plot “devices”, but it might be extremely difficult to find this topic discussed in books on how to write, or anywhere else.  If “Godot” is interesting, it’s not as the kind of device I just mentioned — he should not be discussed here at all, but in the article on the play.  I think this article right now is not contributing anything, and should be taken away and if someone can fix it “off stage” then bring it back on.  Also footnote number one and two are being stretched to seem as if they are generalizing on the concept, so they can belong in the lede, but in fact the authors are attempting to describe something particular.  To answer the question, as requested, yes: Each TV series script should be considered individually, so that if a character is seen one week, they may then be unseen the next, if used in an interestingly unseen way that fits the excellent new definition that we will eventually come up with.  Handthrown (talk) 16:35, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * To address your first three sentences, about the lede, I added that the absent character advances the plot in a significant way and that their absence enhances their function; I have a source that says that's the case, and that will keep at bay discussions of armies, townspeople, the like. As far as your suggestion that the article be taken away and fixed "offstage," it kind of goes against Wikipedia policy that we don't delete articles just because they aren't perfect. There are 14 reasons for deletion in the Deletion policy, and the only ones that could be argued to apply here are #6 ("Articles that cannot possibly be attributed to reliable sources") and #7 ("Articles for which thorough attempts to find reliable sources to verify them have failed"). Yes, we have had trouble finding sources that give a broad and general definition and criteria for "unseen character," but we do have sources that demonstrate "unseen character" is a verified concept, so in the end neither of these apply. And, the article has survived three separate deletion nominations, so taking it away and fixing it "offstage" isn't an option. Mmyers1976 (talk) 19:50, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Godot does belong here. That we wait and wait for him and he never arrives is the fundamental structuring principle of that drama (which is, I might add in passing, one of the candidates for the most important drama of the twentieth century). Talking about Godot and Protopopov in Three Sisters (also far from a minor example) as unseen characters is a standard element in discussion of those two plays pretty much in every classroom that ever studies them. It's important, I think, to understand that by definition an unseen character can't really exist in a novel. The 'unseen' bit in the term is precisely the difference between different modes of representation (mimesis and diegesis in Aristotle's Poetics, or, as it gets reformulated in Shakespeare studies, "show" and "tell"). The point about unseen characters is not that they are literally unseen, but that they have this weird absence/presence in a drama (whether cinematic, televisual, or theatrical). This is why an unseen character is a fundamentally different thing from simply "someone who is mentioned but who doesn't appear". It's not the mentioning of them, but, again, their function in the drama -- they have a major presence in the drama, without being present, as it were. Hence Godot and Protopopov. Their 'invisible hand' is felt, despite their apparent 'absence' onstage/onscreen. It's this functional absence/presence that makes an unseen character, not the mentioning in dialogue. Drama (and, again, this applies irrespective of medium) is something different from its verbal texture (in Aristotilean terms, we're talking about the first two elements, plot and character, not dialogue). One way of describing that difference, following Aristotle, would be to talk about Godot or Protopopov as agents in the drama, who do not appear. They are dramatised (and thus, distinct from people who are merely mentioned) but they are not enacted. This is why Mrs Crane in Fraiser definitely belongs in the article. She has a major presence, she acts as an agent in the action, but she is unseen (mostly). Again, the glimpses don't invalidate that. It's a bit like what Charlie Chaplin does in Modern Times, a sound-era film with a soundtrack, in which he doesn't speak. His muteness is comparable with the unseen character's invisibility -- its function allows for jokes about the function (as the glimpse does). Near the end of the film, he gets a job as a singing waiter. He says (in an intertitle, of course) "I forgot the words!" (while we hear other waiters singing in the background). Everyone in the audience (at least in the 1930s) is waiting to hear him. He plays with that. He teases us. When, finally, he opens his mouth --- a nonsense language comes out (which in theatre terms we call Grammelot, from Commedia dell'Arte). In a discussion of that film, then, Charlie is a mute character, even though, strictly speaking, we do in fact hear his voice. It's the same with unseen characters. There is another aspect to unseen characters, too, that might be pertinent to the discussion here. Let's say there's a play/tv/film in which a character has important relationships with other characters in the dramatised world, whom we never see onstage/screen. For the actor, their relationship with this unseen person is important and is developed by them in their preparation (the other character is part of the 'given circumstances'). We might learn a great deal about this other person during the course of the drama. However, the other character would not be an unseen character just because we don't see them. In theatrical terms, they'd only be an unseen character is they are, so to speak, imagined as being 'in the wings', about to come on (this is an important qualification to the first bit of my response). That's the point with Godot and Protopopov. Godot is expected onstage throughout. We hear the sleigh bells of Protopopov (teasingly, like the glimpsed character in tv). It's not that these characters are 'mentioned', however frequently, but rather that they are in something like a perpetual state of being about-to-enter. It's about playing with audience expectations. In cinema, something comparable happens with the distinction between onscreen and offscreen space. The offscreen space doesn't mean everything else in the fictional universe other than what's being presented mimetically. It's more like another 'dimension' of space that is in a conjunctive relationship with onscreen space. The offscreen in cinema is the "just-out-of-sight". Same for unseen characters. They have a fundamentally different ontological existence from "characters mentioned but not seen". They are perpetually about-to-be-seen. Hence the glimpses.  • DP •  {huh?} 21:05, 18 August 2016 (UTC)


 * It’s tricky to discuss the article when the article is in flux. The lede is suddenly no longer a simple dictionary definition.  I appreciated and admired the discussion of Godot in the comment above, but now that the lede has changed, we’re on different grounds.  Now the lede is phrased in a way that it can be argued that Godot, who doesn’t actually do anything to advance the plot significantly, should be ruled out: The examples described by the first source (F.C. Green) are off-stage characters that introduce a dynamic or catastrophic twist.  (Like the groom in a marriage plot announcing to his betrothed that he is already married.)  Godot may have set the story of Beckett’s play in action in some unknown way before the curtain goes up, but his only action during the course of the play is to send a note telling the characters to continue waiting.


 * The first task, before deciding who’s in or out, has to be to define the term, unseen character, and to decide how that might be done. The first source (by F.C.Green) describes what can be found in a very particular category of plays.  Does it make sense for that description to be conscripted into playing the part of a general definition?  If we want to include Godot, there are reliable sources, (following a comment by Beckett), that describe Godot as possibly being non-existent and the play as being plotless.  Those descriptions, if they are reliably sourced, would be as valid as Green’s, and eligible to be conscripted.  Of course, if our definition accepts anything any reliable source says, it might become like a snowball rolling down the hill that picks up more snow as it goes and gets larger and larger.  Finally, I respectfully don’t at all agree, Mmyers1976, that the issue is that the article is “not perfect”, few things are or ever will be.  I also don’t agree that of the “14 reasons for deletion” numbers 6 and 7 are the only ones at issue, the biggest problem is number 8.  Handthrown (talk) 12:06, 19 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Once we take being in the fictional frame of the play for granted, the fictionality within it or not of Godot doesn't affect his status as an unseen character. It's the way he operates in the drama that matters, regardless of his ontological status. There's a wealth of critical literature (re: verifiability) that says the play does indeed have a plot, often formulated along the lines of "although it seems like nothing happens, in fact..." Beckett's ellipitical pronouncements (when he does eventually say something) are notoriously tricky and can't be used, I'd suggest, in the same way as we would, say, something Brecht said. If you subtract Godot's presence from the play, there's no play. He's the structuring force of its action (such as it is) -- precisely because he has such presence in it. One of the reasons I tried to think the thing through in that long post was that I can't think of a better example, nor a more famous instance (along with Chekhov's). However, of course, it's clear that my attempts to think it through are only (potentially) useful for us to try to get our heads around the issues, and don't solve our verifiability problem in any way. I don't have access to a good library at the moment, so I can't follow through my suggestions with actual edits, but I would tend to agree that a patently imperfect definition and article is better than none at all. Once we make the mentioned in it/doing something important in it distinction, there is a straightforwardly common-sense sense of it, in terms of what's in or out, that ought to serve to guide in lieu of proper criteria. I think that it's likely that we'll have to be satisfied with sources that mention the idea, rather than fretting that we can't find articles/monographs treating the subject in full. That it's not a subject many scholars have treated in full (I'm assuming), doesn't mean it's not appropriate to gather what there is here on Wikipedia, since it does indeed come up in routine discussions of drama (at least). I found a brief discussion of the way in which in, Glass Menagerie I think it was, everytime father's mentioned, a little light comes up on his picture on the mantlepiece, to emphasise his 'absent presence'. It struck me that, if I were in a university library, I'd go sniffing around in books about Narratology and/or Semiotics to find a more general treatment. I couldn't see with the online preview, but there might be material, or at least suggestions for further research, in something like The Cambridge Guide to Narrative, for example. I've glanced through the various dictionaries and "theory/analysis of drama" books that I have, and though there's plenty of material for character (which you'll notice, is a pretty threadbare treatment of that more obviously important subject), I haven't found anything directly useful for this article yet. If someone does have access to a decent library, I'd suggest looking for terms a little broader than "unseen character", too, such as "offstage/offscreen character", "unseen presence" etc. I don't see any good reason why the numerous journalist articles that use the term shouldn't be conscripted, along with the more academic ones, to a general definitinon.  • DP •  {huh?} 12:56, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Handthrown, if you genuinely believe the concept of Unseen character meets reason #8 for deletion, or in general think it should be deleted, then by all means, nominate it for deletion, which you can do here: WP:AFD. Mmyers1976 (talk) 15:06, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I would also ask that that we keep this RfC discussion focused on the specific question of the RfC. We can deal with problems with the definition, or questions about the general notability of the concept, elsewhere, like in a separate discussion on this talk page or in AfD, respectively. But THIS discussion is supposed to answer the question of whether Wikipedia editors can apply their own interpretation of whether a character is unseen or not after reliable sources have already called that character unseen. So let's please limit our discussion to that, thank you. Mmyers1976 (talk) 15:17, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * So, getting back to the central question, Handthrown, you said "The first task, before deciding who’s in or out, has to be to define the term, unseen character, and to decide how that might be done." I would like to reiterate that we, as Wikipedia editors, do not decide who's in or out, that is original research. We report that reliable sources have decided that a certain character is in. This was already generally acknowledged in a previous DRN discussion. Since all we have to do is say "Source X says that character Y is an unseen character," that's why issues with the definition and issues of inclusion of examples are two separate issues that can be dealt with separately. It's also why we can work on the definition concurrently with coming to consensus on the specific question of this RfC Mmyers1976 (talk) 15:32, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * If tolerance is the only way, and otherwise there’s “nothing to be done”, then the lede should go back to what it was and avoid all restrictions, including the latest improvement, about “advancing and enhancing”, and stick to it -- just open the gates and welcome all well-sourced ideas that anyone can find. Let the article be a picnic of examples and interesting reflections from various experts and TV journalists.  And if anyone objects on the basis of notability, we might try Mmeyers’ ploy and tell them they’re lousy perfectionist. Perhaps I spoke too sharply when I joined this discussion, without the proper understanding of what good editors are dealing with and attempting to achieve.  Mmeyers, forgive me, but I respectfully do not agree with your idea that “we, as Wikipedia editors, do not decide who's in or out”.  Of course we do, and to support my point I offer as “exhibit A” the question that is at the top of this “Request for Comment”: “Should the article include examples like Vera Peterson and Maris Crane, which multiple reliable sources consider the most well-known examples of Unseen characters, but which some Wikipedia editors do not believe technically qualify as unseen?”  That question was posted by an editor with a very similar name as yours, his name is: Mmeyers1976.  I also don’t agree with your suggestion that I should nominate this article for deletion, and, again, I support my point with another quote from the same editor:  “The article has survived three separate deletion nominations, so taking it away and fixing it ‘offstage’ isn't an option.” If you want to discuss this any further please take it up with Mmeyres1976.  Just please go easy on him, because he means well.  Handthrown (talk) 00:02, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * While I appreciate that discussions that seem intractable may be frustrating, I don't think that's helpful,Handthrown. It is quite correct to say that we don't get to choose whether an example counts as belonging to the category -- original research is excluded. It's quibbling inappropriately to point out that as editors we are responsible for adding or not -- two quite different things. If it is well sourced, it is a good candidate. We then exercise our best judgment as to whether it is appropriate for an article, with regard to undue, etc. If pressed to do so, I don't think it's unlikely that the 'man-on-the-street' would offer Mrs Crane as an example of an unseen character. By what critera would you propose we assess notability, in those circumstances?  • DP •  {huh?} 12:27, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Handthrown, please maintain civility, it is especially important to do so in dispute resolution process discussions like this. I see that you've only been on Wikipedia since last month, so you don't understand a lot of the processes, policies and editing conventions here. For instance, you take umbrage with my suggestion that you nominate the article for deletion if you really think it is not contributing anything and should be "taken away" (your words). Well, the only way to "take an article away" is to nominate it for deletion. Also, I think you really need to read the policies prohibiting Original Research and synthesis, because your statements betray a lack of understanding of them, again, due to your inexperience. I of course cannot prohibit you from participating in this discussion (though if you do persist in uncivil comments like the above which are disruptive you will be blocked), but I would suggest that maybe you hold off in active participation in dispute resolution discussions until you have more experience and a better grasp of polic Mmyers1976 (talk) 13:34, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

To respond to your question, DP, I would say that we should get beyond the issue of “notability”, and simply require content to be sourced, and consider that if it is properly sourced, then that’s notable enough. We should simplify the lede to what it was a few days ago, which would avoid quibbles about various examples: If the lede is simple and true there’s less to discuss or argue about. This way we could let all the examples in, including Vera, Maris, Godot, and whoever else can be sourced. This might create a talk page with a more agreeable atmosphere for editors and a more welcoming place for a wider variety of examples in the article itself. I used the word “picnic-like”, to indicate this. The article might be longer than it is, but rather than trying to zero in on some admirably particular theory (that hasn’t yet been found) the article could offer instead many valuable (and sourced) ideas. There may be editors who raise the issue of notability (as I did), or the fear of “becoming a list”, and they deserve a response: I suggest that we tell them perfectionism isn’t a goal here (I don’t take credit for that idea), or we could point out what was pointed out to me (quoting MMeyers): “The article has survived three separate deletion nominations, so taking it away and fixing it ‘offstage’ isn't an option”. That’s a strong point, which, I think, puts this article, in a serious way, “outside the law”, but it’s still the voice of the people, and its still a Wikipedia article. What can we do? We can walk away. Or (as I think you suggested) we can do the best we can. Being outside the law does give editors a certain license, since we have nothing to fear ultimately, if anyone threatens deletion as a kind of final solution. I also think we should remove the citations from the lede, which doesn’t need them anyway, and let those citations remain further down. I realize a lot of this is restating what I said in my last comment. Regarding your most recent comment, DP, I’m opposed to quibbling, and I thought that (above) I was raising a fair objection to a quibble, so I, of course, don’t want it turned on me as though I were the quibbler. To be specific: When I said that editors should “choose”, and someone, I won’t say who, responded by saying “editors never make choices”, I then simply pointed out that the Request for Comment (above) is predicated on a choice that editors must make regarding Vera and Maris. DP you usually comment as if you have your brights on, which I appreciate, but then you say (above) that I’m not being “helpful”, and I’m somewhat mystified regarding exactly what your reference is, or maybe it’s just a general comment. But I don’t want to poke around too much only to learn what must be intended as a criticism, what ever it is. So let’s just say, I sensed the vague recrimination, I accept it, and I will try to be as helpful as I can. And leave it at that. Please notice that this response does contain a specific answer to the original “Request for comment.” Handthrown (talk) 23:52, 20 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Oh no! I wrote all that off-site, and then entered it without noticing that MMeyers has left a scold on my own talk page, suggesting that I am not “cool” in his words.  And now I see he is suggesting that I am uncivil and should bow out of this discussion until I know what I’m doing.  That seems brutal, MMeyrs, and I don’t think I deserve that.  Your claim is that I took “umbrage” at your suggestion regarding nominating the article for deletion — that is not true.  I simply pointed out that I don’t think it’s a good idea that this article should be nominated for deletion — not by me or by anyone.  Please consider that we seem to be in absolutely perfect agreement on that issue.  We agree.  Where’s the umbrage in agreeing with you?  I never want to be accused of being “uncivil”.  And if that is your entire case, then will you reconsider?  However, I will be glad to go away with absolutely no hard feelings, as always, if only because I never want to be where I am not welcome.  Handthrown (talk) 23:54, 20 August 2016 (UTC)


 * This is in response to the survey posted (below) by fellow editor Robert McClenon, who suggests that discussion of his survey can occur in the discussion section. The reason I oppose including Vera Peterson and Maris Crane, which is the question being asked in the survey, is because the meaning or definition of Unseen Character, as it is expressed at the moment, rules them out. There may be reliable sources that say Vera and Maris are “unseen” but the definition goes beyond that and requires them to “advance the action of the plot in a significant way”, and it requires that their absence “enhances the effect on the plot.”  And Vera and Mavis don’t have reliable sources that support them in that regard.  One of the most serious problems in the history of this article is the large amount of disagreement among editors regarding which examples fit the definition and which don’t.  This can be solved by having a less-restrictive definition which will be more inclusive.  The standard that the “meaning is supported by the article that follows and by the examples contained in the article” is the standard found in the Encyclopedia Brittanica and the Oxford English Dictionary; Wikipedia should share that standard and follow those examples, and if it doesn’t I think it could represent a diminishment of quality, and it will certainly invite disagreement.  Each article should be seen as a hypothesis that is demonstrated by its examples, hypotheses are the building blocks of literary studies, and rule number one is to nail them down.  The danger here is that the topic will become a confused muddle, and readers who came looking for meaning will be disappointed.  The definition in the lede appears to be in a state of flux, having changed recently, and good editors are at the moment considering this article, I think this is an opportunity to fix a problem.  Handthrown (talk) 09:33, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Handthrown, your sense of the function of literary/dramatic/cinematic criticism is not right. Terms used in this area are seldom amenable to the kind of Socratic definition you imagine. History and usage simply don't allow that. That is the case with most of our critical terms. Consider "comedy", "tragedy", "drama"... While I understand your desire for the clear and distinct, history (to say nothing of geography) seldom obliges.  • DP •  {huh?} 10:34, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * DionysosProteus, I don’t think we need to complicate this so much. I’m talking about keeping things simple, which I believe the WP Manual of Style (MOS:BEGIN) supports, when it suggests that “The first paragraph should define or identify the topic with a neutral point of view, but without being too specific.”  And also when it says “If its subject is definable, then the first sentence should give a concise definition.”  Good illustrations are easy to find.  Consider the first example that you mention Comedy, the definition in that WP article is simple and true.  For other examples look at the WP articles hammer, toothbrush, protagonist, playwright, and diva. If this article had a definition in the lead section that is concise and true, as it did a few days ago, we would avoid good-faith disputes, and there would be no objection to Vera and Maris, the subjects of Robert McClenon’s survey question.  Handthrown (talk) 16:12, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I encourage you to think about that a little more deeply, Handthrown. You will notice, for instance, that many of the "definitions" you offer are unsourced. They are also, in some cases, dubious -- protagonist, playwright, comedy for example. To know that, you'd have to be familiar with the field in more than layman's terms. The difficulty here is precisely that it's not amenable to simple and reductive formulations. Though the work is too small to include unseen character, Raymond Williams' Keywords offers a good overview of the way in which terms we use in criticism are complex and historically shifting formulations not amenable to the kind of reduction you're suggesting should govern the lede and criteria for inclusion here.  • DP •  {huh?} 16:31, 24 August 2016 (UTC) NB: if you are confused by those claims, consider Dante for comedy, the meaning of protagonist in Athenian tragedy, and why we don't call a playwright a "playwrite".  • DP •  {huh?} 16:33, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Handthrown, you say that the definition from a few days ago was concise and true, and that if we still had that definition now, there would be no objection to Vera and Maris. But there have been objections to Vera and Maris for at least two years, all while we had the definition you say is "concise and true", so your statement makes no sense. What's more, the old definition you are now praising as "concise and true", 6 days ago you called that exact same definition "fatally weak," and it was going to lead to endless arguments. You're giving the appearance of contradicting yourself, whether you mean to or not, just as you did when you called for the article to be "taken away" but didn't mean to imply it should be deleted. I wish you'd take a moment to consider how you express yourself, and how this may be causing confusion in this discussion. Mmyers1976 (talk)
 * Now with all that said, you CANNOT use any general definition of unseen character, even a really good one, as a criteria to decide whether a specific example qualifies as an unseen character, that is a VIOLATION OF POLICY, specifically the policy forbidding Original Research. It doesn't matter what the definition in the article says; the only way to determine whether a specific example qualifies is to find reliable sources which say whether it is an unseen character or not.
 * If the reliable sources all say the character is an unseen character, then it is eligible to be included as an example.
 * If the reliable sources all explicitly say the character is not an unseen character, then it is not eligible to be included as an example.
 * If there are no reliable sources that comment either way on whether or not the character is an unseen character, then it is not eligible to be included as an example.
 * If some of the sources say the character is an unseen character, and some explicitly say the character is not an unseen character, then it is eligible to be included as an example that reliable sources often cannot agree on what is or is not an unseen character.
 * You say you don't want to complicate this, well, it doesn't get any more simple than the above; these are the only criteria by which we as editors are allowed to decide whether a character is unseen or not, and that's why the definition in the lede is immaterial to whether or not any examples are included. The alternative process you keep insisting on would be a violation of policy, and I have patiently explained this to you multiple times now. You've been on this site less than a month, please consider the high probability that you don't fully understand Wikipedia policy yet and are therefore mistaken. As for any discrepancies between the general definition and reliable sources' determination that these two characters are unseen, I think most people are aware that literary and dramatic interpretation and theory are not like physics, there are no consistent, universal equations and theories to definitively categorize characters, plot devices, genres, etc., and so even when "textbook" definitions can be found, they aren't going to apply 100% to even the most significant, notable examples. Mmyers1976 (talk) 19:40, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

To respond to my fellow editor Mmeyers. Thank you for asking me that. I admit I did indeed change my mind. The reason is that I was persuaded by my fellow editors. Often people don’t change their minds. But I did. I did think that the lede was not good, I didn’t think that it was especially notable that a character was not seen. But when it was pointed out to me by Mmeyers, that this article has survived a number of requests for deletion, and is not going anywhere, I realized that we had a choice, to do the best we can, or we can walk away. I felt that if we walk away, there is a risk that out of neglect the article could become horrible — an embarrassment that WP doesn’t deserve. Then I read what another was saying about Godot, and I saw how the article could contain a host of interesting content — as long as we don’t restrict things too much at the start. Let the lead be simple or uninteresting, but let the content be rich and good. It also interests me that this article, since it can never be deleted, is in that sense “above the law”. I don’t know exactly how that would play out, or what it would mean, but it must mean something. It could be dangerous, or a problem, but it doesn’t have to be.

Also, Mmeyers, in your numbered section, I think we agree, but if (as a purely hypothetical question just to get at the principle of including people) if a notable woman attending Oxford is referred to by a reliable source as a “university wit” she still won’t be eligible to be included in the article on University Wits. Right? If we agree on that then we agree that a mention in a reliable source may not always be the ultimate guide, and we still need to read any lede section accurately.

To respond to DionysosProteus, Raymond Williams, yes, indeed, thank you for mentioning him, I am very familiar with Keynotes, I have a copy that I owned before I was assigned to buy it. Williams meant a lot to me, I fell under his spell when I first encountered him on my own, and then in school where everyone wanted to get on his mindset, and then in rehearsal rooms where no one had read him, but still, whether they knew him or not, the play still had to be wrought out of flesh, ink, and lumber etc. as his ideas also seemed to become flesh, so to speak. Thank you also for mentioning that some of the ledes I linked to were unsourced, but I’m not one who thinks that WP demands that every single idea needs a link. I don’t think I’m wrong about that. Handthrown (talk) 22:39, 24 August 2016 (UTC)


 * You need to find a better class of rehearsal room, my friend ;)  • DP •  {huh?} 00:40, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Handthrown, well yes of course, we cannot misrepresent what a reliable source says, if a source says an individual is something which is a homonym of an article's subject, we cannot use that source as evidence that individual is an example of that subject. Also, if a single reliable source makes an offhand comment that X is an example of an article subject, and we edit X into the article to give it some special prominence in the subject, we may be in danger of giving X Undue Weight, which is a violation of the Core Content Policy of maintaining a Neutral Point of View, "which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." But with Maris and Vera, we don't have that concern, we don't have a single source making an offhand comment, we have seven different sources over 20 years, and many of them saying not only that these characters are unseen, but that they are among the most prominent unseen characters in television history. That's very significant and notable. Mmyers1976 (talk) 08:19, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Mmyers1976: I don’t think I can go along with your four numbered sentences that you list (above) that you say are “the only criteria”. Not when exceptions come to mind so readily — the exception for homophones, to use your word, and the exception that, as you point out, might lead to a conflict with “undue weight”. I can think of others, as well. Is there no WP guideline that covers the four rules? Also your claim that it would be a “violation of policy” if a general definition were used in an article. I can’t see how that could be true. What policy says that? Also, do any sources indicate that Vera and Maris “advance the action of the plot in a significant way, and whose absence enhances their effect on the plot”? Which is a phrase the article uses to define an unseen character. Why not simplify the definition? To respond to DionysosProteus’s brief comment: A person who will only go to places where everyone present is well-versed in R. Williams is a person who stays home. Handthrown (talk) 09:36, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Handthrown, you are misunderstanding what I am saying on all counts. My four criteria above are reiterations of Wikipedia's Verifiability Policy. Numbers 1-3 are specific reiterations of the policy's statement "Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors." Number 4 is a reiteration of the policy's statement "When reliable sources disagree, maintain a neutral point of view and present what the various sources say, giving each side its due weight." Notice that I said in each of the four criteria that they determine eligibility for inclusion, not that they mandate inclusion. We have to consider issues like undue weight, etc., which I have already addressed when I pointed out repeatedly that multiple reliable sources have stated that these two characters are not just unseen, but among the most iconic unseen characters in television history. That places so much legitimate weight on them as being significant and notable for inclusion in the article that you would need an extremely strong argument against their inclusion, and you don't have one. So instead you're trying to wikilawyer this discussion to death based on your poor understanding of policy and it's getting really tiresome.
 * And I did not say that including a general definition in an article is a violation of policy, I said that using that general definition to decide whether specific examples should be included is a violation of policy, specifically the policy against Original Research which states "Sources must support the material clearly and directly: drawing inferences from multiple sources to advance a novel position is prohibited by the NOR policy." Using a general definition of "unseen character" to determine that Maris Crane is not an unseen character because she doesn't (in your judgement) meet the criteria of that definition is drawing inferences from the sources used for the definition to advance a novel position that Maris Crane is not an unseen character. IT DOESN'T MATTER that there are no sources that specifically say Vera or Maris advance the plot etc. ALL THAT MATTERS is there are multiple reliable sources that say they are unseen characters, and that they are particularly significant unseen characters. If you don't believe me, you can report me to the No Original Research Noticeboard, I'm a hair's breadth from taking this issue there myself.
 * Finally, you ask "why not simplify the definition?" I'll tell you why we don't simplify the definition, because that would be yet another violation of Wikipedia policy you are advocating. We follow where the reliable sources lead us, we report what they say, we point out where they disagree with each other, what we DON'T do is omit the sources that aren't convenient for us and what we want the article to look like, that would be a violation of the Wikipedia Policy that mandates we maintain a Neutral Point of View. You want the article to be nice and clean and neat and simplistic, well life in general, but especially concepts associated with literary and theatrical interpretation and criticism aren't neat and clean and simplistic.
 * You repeatedly advocate violating multiple policies due to your gross ignorance and inexperience. You've been here a month, so no one is expecting you to have a perfect grasp of policy yet, but what is expected is that when much more experienced editors point out the specific policies you are advocating violating, you take into consideration that you have only been here a month and not keep trying to beat your dead horse. So, your position has been heard, you've chosen to not listen to the reasons it violates policy and continue to repeat it, you're alone in your opposition, I'll wait the recommended month to see if any new voices participate, but there is no point in any further discussion with you. Mmyers1976 (talk) 14:05, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

If I may, I’d like to raise an issue that hasn’t been discussed yet. (And I’m not addressing any one particular editor.) There is a phrase in the lead section of the article (an unseen character is one “who advances the action of the plot in a significant way” etc.), and it appears that no one has attempted to verify this phrase. Which seems like an oversight considering that this phrase has been a part of this discussion, and considering how important “verification” is to Wikipedia. So yesterday I made the attempt, I looked up the reference, and I found what is apparently the source in an essay by Mahfouz, and it appears that the phrase in this Wikipedia article doesn’t pass the verification test. For example, when the phrase in the lead section claims that an unseen character “advances the action of the plot”, what the source says instead is that the ones who advance the plot are not the “unseen characters”, but the ones who are seen by the audience. In a sense that’s the opposite meaning. It seems to me this pertains to this discussion — the reason I voted “opposed” in the survey posted by Robert McClenon has to do with this phrase, and it was my assumption that the phrase was accurately sourced. But I also think this issue is distinct enough that I should create a new section on this talk page and discuss it in more detail, and also discuss how the second part of the phrase also has a verification problem. So the new section, “Attempting to verify a phrase in the lead section” will be found below.

On another topic, I think we can all agree that the talk page is place that gives us a chance to reasonably discuss things in good faith for the purpose of hopefully improving the article. (Mmyers1976 I read your last comment, and it’s okay, I respectfully am glad to honor your wish, and won’t attempt to engage you further in the discussion we were having. It’s absolutely okay.) Handthrown (talk) 10:07, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Note to other editors - Handthrown has posted a new thread for discussion of the above issue, so the above statement is redundant, but he/she refuses to allow it to be collapsed to prevent confusion from two separate discussions on the same issue. Please only discuss this new issue (which is off-topic to this RfC) in the new thread below. Mmyers1976 (talk) 23:43, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

To give a response to the the above Note to other editors: I really don’t mind other editors deleting, editing, or collapsing my comments on this page, but only if it's done reasonably, and only if the guidelines are followed. The Talk page guidelines have certain restrictions about that kind of thing. However, I do appreciate my fellow editor’s concern (in that note) and the efforts to direct or guide any forthcoming comments. Handthrown (talk) 03:30, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Survey
Please indicate whether you favor or oppose the inclusion of the characters Vera Peterson and Maris Crane. Follow your statements of Support or Oppose by one sentence only. Back-and-forth discussion can be in the Discussion section. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:54, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Favor They are WP:V and the arguments against are all WP:OR. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 15:29, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Support: sourced and appropriate.  • DP •  {huh?} 16:20, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Support: Multiply reliably sourced. Mmyers1976 (talk) 00:40, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose: I am opposed, because to answer this survey absolutely and fundamentally depends on how “unseen character” is defined, and the definition in the lede was significantly altered (18 August 2016) only three days before this survey was posted, with no consensus, and no agreement in the discussion that occurred after the fact, and with no mention in the posting of the survey of this alteration. Handthrown (talk) 10:25, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Support - they are sourced, verifiable and on topic. Charlie Townsend came to my mind when reading this article.-- Isaidnoway (talk)  22:47, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Support, per . FoCuS contribs ;  talk to me!  11:03, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Example farm
This article is not about the concept of an unseen character. Rather, this article very briefly defining the concept, followed by numerous examples. Some are well sourced, others are poorly sourced and some are completely unsourced products of WP:OR. How many illustrative examples are helpful in an article such as this is always up for debate. However, when the list of examples takes over the article, one of two things needs to happen. 1) The list of examples needs to become a "List of..." article. In the present case, we do not seem to have reliable sources discussing the concept of a list of such characters. Such an article would need objective inclusion criteria from a reliable source. Is (Example X) an "unseen character"? We would need clear, objective criteria that are drawn from a reliable source that would clearly include or exclude each of the examples heatedly discussed above. 2) The list of examples should be pared down to examples where reliable sources have something to say about the concept as illustrated by that example. This is all longer term. In the shorter term, I wish to remove all of the unsourced examples. Yes, they might be unseen characters. Consider that God, various historical figures (real, legendary and fictional), etc. are all unseen characters in various books, plays, novels, TV shows, movies, operas, knock knock jokes, comic strips, etc. Take a story with a character traveling to the past and changing history such that George Wallace becomes president, leading to nuclear war. George Wallace was (unfortunately) a real person. The Wallace who became president was not. He is fictional and not seen. Bob's your uncle. How about a story of detectives investigating a crime where various people are discussed at length and not shown. Fictional criminals and victims may remain unseen prominent characters in a story. We certainly cannot include all such examples. Additionally (and perhaps more importantly) there is good reason to avoid simply including whatever characters someone decides to add that seem to fit: (include extensive list of policies and guidelines here). Comments? - Sum mer PhD v2.0 16:22, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It certainly is a problem, we have a lede that tries to define unseen character but still fails to provide a well-sourced, broad discussion of the general concept. Over 9 years, through 3 AfDs and 2 DRNs, the general consensus has been that the discussion of the general concept needs to be drastically improved, but this has not happened. I don't think it is for a lack of trying, I searched and have only been able to add one decent article that talks about the general concept of the unseen character in modern theatre. So, when it comes to the examples, I get we don't want listcruft, but forking off all the examples into a separate list article, I think that will worsen, not improve this article, leaving it the barest stub, it's like pulling boards off a house you aren't finished building to start adding a detached garage for it. Absolutely, remove all unsourced examples, that's reasonable, though. And I think your number 2 bullet point is a very good one. It's one of the reasons I firmly believe that Maris Crane should stay in the article; it's not like I have some special affinity for the character, but not only do we have multiple reliable sources listing her as one of the most notable unseen characters, we have a reliable source quoting the creators of the article discussing their thought process for keeping the character as an unseen character. We don't have any other examples that provide such clear-cut insight into one possible thought process for creating an unseen character, and this helps illuminate the general concept of unseen characters rather than just providing another example. For that reason, I'd like to move it out of an "examples" list and incorporate it into a new section on "reasons unseen characters are created" or "functions of unseen characters" or something like that, but I am reticent to do so while the RfC is ongoing. Mmyers1976 (talk) 17:12, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that spinning off the list to a daughter article is a horrid idea that really just tries to hide the problem. I hadn't noticed the RfC when I added this section. I think keeping this discussion centered there makes sense. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 21:01, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Attempting to verify a phrase in the lead section
I have attempted to verify a phrase in the lead section of the article, but it appears that the phrase doesn’t accurately represent its source — in fact it contradicts its source. The phrase says that an unseen character “advances the action of the plot in a significant way, and whose absence enhances their effect on the plot.” According to the citation that follows it, the source is an essay, "The Presence of Absence: Catalytic and Omnipresent Offstage Characters in Modern American Drama”, written by Safi Mahmoud Mahfouz, published in the literary journal, Midwest Quarterly.  The problem is that first part of the phrase in the lead section claims that an unseen character “advances the action of the plot”, but what the source says instead is that the ones who advance the plot are not the “unseen characters”, but those who are seen by the audience.  In a sense that’s the opposite.  The second part of the same phrase I believe has a similar problem; it states that an unseen character is one “whose absence enhances their effect on the plot”.  The source doesn’t actually say that, and it doesn’t refer to the “plot”. Instead says that absence may affect how the unseen characters “appear” or seem to the audience.

For comparison, here is (again) the phrase in this WP article: [An unseen character is one who] “advances the action of the plot in a significant way, and whose absence enhances their effect on the plot.”

And here is the source passage in the essay by Mahfouz:

"Those we do not glimpse on stage are still there, because they motivate the actors to take a certain course of action and advance the plot, but their physical presence is unnecessary. In fact, their absence may make them appear more powerful to us simply because we only know them by inference."

The source itself is fine and is used elsewhere in the article. (Although there is a minor problem in the reference to O’Neil in the “History” section of the article, where it credits O’Neil with establishing the “absent character” in the American Theatre; the source doesn’t go that far.) The sources for all of the references to this essay, including the above quote, can be found in an excerpt at this website:

I think what happened is that the phrase may have been in good faith simply misread, or misinterpreted and then perhaps “adjusted” to fit in with the lead section, or adjusted to have it become a paraphrase. I have objected to the phrase in the lead section for other reasons — I felt that it was a needless restriction that may invite debate about what examples belong or don’t belong in the article. Because I hadn’t read the source, I wasn’t sure that the phrase was being used by the article in a way that the source uses it. But now I think that it can be considered “original research”. Handthrown (talk) 10:13, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
 * No, it's not original research, you obviously still don't understand that policy in any meaningful way. Even if you were right and I had misread the source, that would not have been original research. But to the issue at hand, there is no "contradiction," the lede and source statements aren't anywhere near "opposites", you're splitting hairs here. The source material in question is "they (unseen characters) motivate the actors to take a certain course of action and advance the plot, but their physical presence is unnecessary." That can be read either as "unseen characters motivate the actors and unseen characters advance the plot" or "unseen characters motivate the actors to take a course of action that advances the plot," but either way, unseen characters act as a mechanism that leads to the plot being advanced, ie, either directly or indirectly, unseen characters help advance the plot. Neither of the two ways of reading the sentence are anywhere near "the opposite" of what the lede says. You're arguing a distinction without a difference. And trying to push a hair-splitting interpretation of a source out of a stated concern that it might create a "restriction" elsewhere in the article is POV-pushing, which is yet another violation of policy on your part.
 * And yes, the lede says “whose absence enhances their effect on the plot”, because the source says "...advance the plot, but their physical presence is unnecessary. In fact, their absence may make them appear more powerful..." Again, you're ridiculously splitting hairs here, you're engaging in tendentious editing.
 * And yes, I did "paraphrase", because we are SUPPOSED TO PARAPHASE: "Long quotations crowd the actual article and remove attention from other information. Many direct quotations can be minimized in length by providing an appropriate context in the surrounding text. A summary or paraphrase of a quotation is often better where the original wording could be improved" Putting quotations in ledes is especially sloppy.
 * On O'Neil, the source says "However, it was Strindberg, Ibsen, and Chekhov who excelled in using absence as a theatrical device and weaving it into the fabric of their drama. Influenced by his European counterparts, Byrd (2000) remarks, Eugene O'Neill robustly used the absent character as an established device in the American theatrical scene." From that this article's text states "However, it was the early Twentieth century European playwrights Strindberg, Ibsen and Chekhov who fully developed the dramatic potential of the unseen character. Eugene O'Neill was influenced by his European contemporaries and established the absent character as an aspect of character, narrative, and stagecraft in American theatre." Again, you're trying to pick nits here. Mmyers1976 (talk) 11:48, 27 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Handthrown, Mmyers1976 is right here. You're confusing agency with appearance, the relation between which is precisely what's involved in the subject of this article. Plot is the series of changes that we see onscreen/stage. That's what distinguishes it from story. Plot is advanced by action, something happening (an event) that is caused by an agent (as distinct from chance or accident). In the first paragraph of your comment above, you are playing one side of a dialectical whole off against the other, when in reality (and in the source), they are two poles of a single process. The unseen character acts as an agent (the who) in the plot (the what) by means of the agency (the how) of the seen characters. When the seen character is motivated by the unseen character, then the seen character is the mediation of the enactment of the unseen character's action. That is to say, the seen character is acting as the vehicle for the 'force' of the unseen character here onstage/screen. This is necessarily the case at an, as it were, ontological level, or at least, as a result of the definition of the terms involved. How could it be otherwise? Ultimately, all of this arises from what happened historically as a result of the assult on the classical conception of action in modernity. There is a similar cracking or even 'breaking up' of that conception if we look at the relation between the agents and the scene. The function of the environment changes radically in modern (Ibsen and after) drama, necessitating new conventions in staging (the fourth wall, three-dimensional sets). This is necessary because the environment begins to function as an agent, rather than merely a backdrop/backcloth. The same is true in relation to the 'present tense' mode of mimesis--again, Ibsen is the clearest example--whereby the on-going present nature of the drama is qualified by the increasing role of the past as an agent in the here-and-now. Again, ultimately, all of this may be traced to Darwin in the history of ideas. Action increasingly becomes inflected as behaviour. In modernism, in its more extreme versions, this means the character can become an automaton or puppet, simply going through the motions originating elsewhere (an Infernal Machine as Cocteau has it). Just as the environment/scene--agent relation and the present--past relation both challenge the autonomy of the drama, based in the present intersubjective action of the (seen) figures, so too with the unseen--seen character relation. The latter is a fragmentation of the classical model of action proceeding via agents in conflict here-and-now (i.e., in a medium that tells its story via mimesis rather than diegesis, seen). This is why the substantial development of this device occurs in the plays of those playwrights most associated with the other, related changes to which I'm pointing (environment and past), namely Strindberg and Chekhov. And, as chance would have it, Raymond Williams is one of those critics that has pointed us to this historical development. As a result of all of this, Mmyers1976 is correct: the paraphrasing isn't a misrepresentation of the source. It says what the source is saying in a clear and concise manner. Seen characters by definition are the only ones who literally advance the plot, since that's what plot is, but an unseen character is a dramatic device whereby the agent is fragmented into an agent--figure distinction: despite their absence, they still function as an agent, via the behaviour of the figure onstage/screen. To return for a moment to one of the original confusions on this talk page, that's what makes them different from someone merely mentioned 'in passing'. Your argument is trying to advance the proposition that an unseen character can't advance the plot because they are unseen, yet that is precisely the very nature of an "unseen character".  • DP •  {huh?} 13:28, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

So, if I get what you’re saying, then an “unseen character” is not an “unseen character”, he or she is in fact a “seen character”. And, in fact, the source may be making that point when he suggests that an “unseen character” has an “appearance” and a “presence”. And, according to that particular source, the unseen characters are not off-stage, but they are “still there” onstage. If we can include all that in the definition that would be fantastic. The reader who runs into all that in the first sentence or two, might think: “This is wild!”

However, I think that all of these ideas can have a place in the article — but they should be further down. Just an inch or two. And if you’re suggesting that these are new ideas that are supplanting the old ideas, then I think that the old ideas can also have a place in this article. As well as the history that connects (or divides) the ideas.

I think that in any case, it is not proper or accurate to “cherry pick” tiny bits from the source, and cram them into one little phrase that the source never actually said, and then pretend: “Oh, look! The source has offered us part of a general definition!” When that is not at all what the source is up to. It is way too heavy-handed editorially for the article to do that.

The lede says that the unseen character advances the plot, but the source says that it is the actors on stage who do that. (“… motivate the actors to take a certain course of action and advance the plot.”) If both seen and unseen can advance the plot, and if the source means something other than what he can be quoted as saying — I’ll go along, but an editor may need to roll up his or her sleeves and add an explanation to the artcle, or make it work somehow.

DionysosProteus you say that I am “trying to advance the proposition that an unseen character can't advance the plot”. Not so! No way! Unseen character can advance the plot! You are so totally far from what I think or what I’ve ever said. That makes me think therein something may be revealed about our discussion: I’m not disagreeing with your ideas about Strindberg and Darwin, I think those ideas belong in the article, and it would be great to have them fully expressed. My biggest concern is that the lede doesn’t need to be so restrictive. My suggestion is that the definition in the lead section might be: “An unseen character is a fictional character referred to but not directly observed by the audience.”  So simple! It would avoid needless debate about who's in or out. And below the lede there could follow all kinds of examples, and thoughts and variations, etc. etc. Handthrown (talk) 15:50, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * "So, if I get what you’re saying, then an “unseen character” is not an “unseen character”, he or she is in fact a “seen character”" Obviously you don't get what he's saying, because that's not what he said at all. I think you are being deliberately obtuse and argumentative. "I’ll go along" - no one actually needs you to go along, you can continue to be as eristic as you want, because this not the League of Nations, we don't require unanimity, only consensus. The RfC on the examples has already achieved consensus despite your spirited yet uninformed opposition, and will be closed with consensus for allowing the examples in a few days hence. Likewise, your confused argument here about the use of the source already has two well-articulated counterpoints against it, so it's a non-starter, you've already got consensus against you. You could, of course, open your own RfC on this issue, or better yet, report it to the No Original Research Noticeboard. That may be the best course of action you could possibly take, because then you'd get a flood of experienced editors telling you what I have been trying in vain to get through to you for almost two weeks: your understanding of the policy on No Original Research is grossly deficient. Generally people who have only been on Wikipedia for a month like you slowly get their feet wet, editing on articles they have interest in, learning from other editors, etc; they don't jump head-first into RfCs and policy discussions because they have enough self-awareness to recognize they don't yet have the competence the Wikipedia community expects of editors who participate at the level you are trying to. Mmyers1976 (talk) 16:22, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps I should have been more careful and just said that they are part of the same dialectic and their roles can be identical depending on circumstances: Both can be an agent of action on the stage, and both can be a motivating force. In that sense they can be seen as the same. And that’s a problem if you “cherry pick” from Mahfouz’s essay to slap together what appears to be a general definition. The source says that an “unseen character” has an “appearance” and a “presence”, and is not off-stage, but is “still there” onstage, which is very different from how the source is represented in this article. And the source says that it is the “seen” characters that advance the plot, which is also very different from how the source is represented in this article. We are jamming all of the sources complexities and interesting theories and ideas into a short little phrase and using it as a general definition. And the paraphrase goes too far afield -- it’s not right. Why not: “An unseen character is a fictional character referred to but not directly observed by the audience.” ? It’s simple and doesn’t present problems at the door. Mmeyers1976, I object to your ad hominem comments, which you are relentlessly making in almost all of your arguments. Handthrown (talk) 17:23, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Handthrown, these are not ad hominem comments, they are statements of facts which are readily observable from your comments and contributions history. You've misrepresented others' arguments multiple times, you've inserted out-of-scope comments into the RfC multiple times, even after being told they were out of scope, you've reworded and reframed the same basic arguments multiple times even after being told by multiple people these arguments violate policy, which is a violation of Wikipedia's Behavioral Guideline on Disruptive Editing, which states "In some cases, editors have perpetuated disputes by sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus of the community has decided that moving on to other topics would be more productive. Such behavior is disruptive to Wikipedia. Believing that you have a valid point does not confer upon you the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told that it is not accepted....Sometimes, even when editors act in good faith, their contributions may continue to be disruptive and time wasting, for example, by continuing to say they don't understand what the problem is. Although editors should be encouraged to be bold and just do things if they think they're right, sometimes a lack of competence can get in the way. If the community spends more time cleaning up editors' mistakes and educating them about policies and guidelines than it considers necessary, sanctions may have to be imposed." That describes your behavior here to a tee, and note that last part, that says sanctions may be imposed upon you for such behavior. Mmyers1976 (talk) 18:07, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

That is rubbish, Mmyers, you make yourself sound like a foolish hysteric, and your threats are empty bluffs. You should stop the ad hominem nonsense. You are wrong to attack others, you should confine yourself to the issues. Handthrown (talk) 03:20, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Handthrown, I would suggest that Mmyers1976 is becoming frustrated because you are struggling to understand. I tried to explain it as clearly as I could, but it's obvious from your inital response to what I wrote that you didn't follow it. It looks to me like my use of the term "dialectics" might be to blame for that, and I obviously tend to elaborate at length, so my apologies. What I wrote, however, categorically doesn't mean they are the same, in any way or at any point. They are two poles of a dialectical whole--the whole is the advancing action of the plot, in this case. But they are opposed (mimesis/diegesis, present/absent, seen/unseen). I appreciate that you are trying to make sense of it, but I can reassure you that there's nothing improper about the way that source is being used--it certainly doesn't say the "opposite" of what the lede says. You see, plot is what is seen. So, for an unseen character to advance the plot, the only way that can be achieved is via the seen characters. Which is what the source says. There is no other way an unseen character can advance the plot. The mechanism is the onstage characters, but the agent is the offstage one. Which means that the lede is entirely correct to say the unseen advance the plot and to cite the source as the basis for saying so. I've tried to offer an account that explains that, rather than an argument based on authority. However, helping you to follow does seem to be requiring an awful lot of effort on this page. I am not attempting to attack you, merely to suggest that perhaps you should take a step back? As interesting as it might be to explore these things in such minute and painstaking detail, it isn't really the best use of our time or energy. This is, I think, what Mmyers1976 is trying to communicate to you with regard to disruptive editing. Speaking for myself, thinking about these issues has been productive, but more along the lines of "when i get some spare time, I really should write a paper about this, because there's clearly a gap in scholarship about it". As interesting as that may or may not be, it's not what these talk pages are for. Though it hasn't happened here for me, I have often experienced considerable frustration when a lot of time and energy seems to be wasted in what in retrospect is really about trying to educate another editor, rather than simply saying get yourself to a library and figure it out for yourself, as it were. The criteria for Wikipedia in each case have been chewed over in considerable detail and as far as I can see have been satisfied well above and beyond their most rigorous application. I don't think you could ask for more.  • DP •  {huh?} 07:27, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Oh, and for the love of Jeebus, don't use the phrase "fictional character"... "The Atlantic is a wet ocean"...  • DP •  {huh?} 07:31, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I realised I didn't address your suggested replacement: it takes us right back to the problem identified before, in which an unseen character is any person referred to during the course of a drama but who is never physically present. If two characters mention someone else in passing, that third doesn't thereby become an unseen character. But that would be the result of your proposal.  • DP •  {huh?} 07:43, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank’s DP for the effort. You are struggling to explain things to me that are not that complicated, sir, and that I already understand. Perhaps the problem is that you want me to repeat back to you your ideas in a way that you’ll know I understand what you’re saying? You suggest that I don’t understand that they are two poles of the same dialectic, but isn’t that approximately what I said above when I said “they are part of the same dialectic”? Unfortunately misunderstandings seem to abound, and it may be bothersome to you, but that feeling is mutual. Perhaps if we could pull ourselves away from our own ideas and concern ourselves more with what the sources say and how the sources are being used in the article we would be on safer grounds. The source speaks conditionally when he says unseen characters “can be” etc, the article pretends that the source was offering a general definition. That’s is a little fraud. And it is the source that is attempting to make the point that the “seen” and the “unseen” are not in all contexts so distinct — that the “unseen” and the “seen” both have an appearance, as he says, and a presence, and both have functions that are similar. You and I seem to be speaking at cross purposes, as they say, by noticing only those points we wish to notice, and with our various mutual misunderstandings. Oh, well. I appreciate that you didn’t threaten to report me to the authorities. Regarding your last point when you say “If two characters mention someone else in passing, that third doesn't thereby become an unseen character.” etc. The standard for inclusion, I think, is that the unseen character should be notable in some way, according to a reliable source. (As people in life need to be for WP.) That would maintain the aspect of notability for the article itself. I have to think more about “fictional character” —considering that there are non-fictional characters. And when Hamlet speaks of a sea of troubles, the gravedigger might ask if he brought a towel, but most people wouldn’t. Handthrown (talk) 05:33, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 * If you think the current use of the source constitutes "fraud", please do report it to the No Original Research Noticeboard; otherwise, it's obvious consensus is against your position here and there is no further point in continuing to beat this dead horse. Mmyers1976 (talk)
 * Handthrown, on the basis of what you've written, both in your last reply, in the initial objection, and the subsequent responses, it's clear to me that you havent understood the source. You don't seem to understand the way the source is using the word "appear" (which, in its context, is entirely synonomous with 'plot'--the action we see--which is explicitly mentioned in the source), nor the clear and unambigous difference between the two types of characters that it offers--in no sense is the writer making an argument that "the “seen” and the “unseen” are not in all contexts so distinct". It's not my ideas I'm hoping to hear from you, but rather the absense of such obvious misunderstandings as "the ones who advance the plot are not [...] but those [...]"; "that's the opposite", or the manifest confusion of "So, if I get what you’re saying, then an “unseen character” is not an “unseen character”, he or she is in fact a “seen character”. And, in fact, the source may be making that point when he suggests that an “unseen character” has an “appearance” and a “presence”.  And, according to that particular source, the unseen characters are not off-stage, but they are “still there” onstage.", which demonstrated that you hadn't followed at all. There's no pretending or fraud in the article's use of it either. I can't see to what you are referring when you argue the source uses the conditional. Your suggestion about the criteria of inclusion doesn't help, I'm afraid. If two characters mention JFK, he doesn't thereby become an unseen character in their play just because he's notable. And no, there are no "non-fictional" characters. Hitler in Downfall is a character in a fiction.  • DP •  {huh?} 13:13, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

You say the word “appear” is in its context entirely synonymous with “plot”. Appear and plot — synonyms? I don’t know about that. If I dig down into it, it gets complicated, and it doesn’t arrive anywhere. It seems to be a bit of a curveball, DP. And of course if you are trying to suggest that I don’t understand the word “appear”, then curveballs don’t exactly help your case. But let me try and track this through, and I don’t blame you if you don’t bother to follow along: When the source says “In fact, their absence may make them appear more powerful.” the word “appear” refers to “them”, and “them” of course refers to “unseen characters”. And “appear” seems to me to be referring to how “unseen characters” may “seem”. But if the word “appear” is indeed entirely synonymous with plot, I’m concerned about that word you use “entirely”. It doesn’t allow much room for any other meaning besides “plot”. Now of course if, as test of a synonym, you substitute the word “plot” for the word “appear”, then the phrase in the source would become: “In fact, their absence may make them plot more powerful.” This suggests that you’ve tossed a word-usage switcheroo into the works. Which has certainly thrown things off the track a bit. I don’t accept your suggestion that those two words are synonyms, and I certainly do understand the source’s meaning when he uses the word “appear”.

I stand by what I said. The phrase I object to is this: “advances the action of the plot in a significant way, and whose absence enhances their effect on the plot.” That phrase is not a proper condensation of the source, (where does the source say “action of the plot” and what exactly does the source mean by that?  I guess we have to ask the frustrated Mmeyers, because he appears to be the one that coined it.)  That phrase twists and turns the meaning. And why? Perhaps because you, DP, and Mmeyers both feel the Wikipedian need to bar from the article unseen characters who are only mentioned “in passing”, to use your phrase, and you can’t find your way to accept any other manner. So Mmeyers coins a phrase, adds a merely decorative footnote that appears to put the vile phrase in the source’s mouth, and there we’ve got a nice “Wikipedia”-sounding definition. Fraud, I say!

You say you can't see to what I’m referring when I argue the source uses the conditional. It’s not exactly an argument, when the source says unseen characters “can be” etc, it suggests that they both “can be” and (if they fall short for whatever reason) they “cannot be”, as opposed to way the Mmyers’ has put things in the lead section. Handthrown (talk) 22:17, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
 * You're so rambling. Take it to WP:NORN. Mmyers1976 (talk) 22:38, 2 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Handthrown, you haven't understood the source and your attempts to analyse it do not appear to be bringing you any nearer to an understanding. You've had plenty of energy expended trying to help you to see it, but you don't. That's okay. As far as the article satisfying Wikipedia's criteria for verifiability, it source and its representation in the article are just fine as they are.  • DP •  {huh?} 22:49, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Pierce Inverarity is unseen character in Thomas Pynchon novel
Pierce Inverarity is an unseen character in Thomas Pynchon's novel, The Crying of Lot 49. Netherzone (talk) 12:53, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Great. All we need is a reliable source that says so, and we can add it.  • DP •  {huh?} 13:03, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * From Google Scholar

Books: New Essays on The Crying of Lot 49 Patrick O'Donnell, Editor Cambridge University Press, 1991 Pages 55, 56, 57, 69, 70, 73, 82 and others

Beyond and Beneath the Mantle: On Thomas Pynchon's The Crying of Lot 49 By Georgiana M. M. Colvile Editions Rodopi, 1988 Pages 21, 52, 73, 80 and others

Journal article: Californian Paranoia in Germany: Teaching the Political Aesthetic of Thomas Pynchon's The Crying of Lot 49 Ian Afflerbach, University of California, Davis Teaching American Literature: A Journal of Theory and Practice Fall/Winter 2015 (7:3/4)

Citation templates are currently not working on my browser. Will add in correct format when I resolve this matter. Netherzone (talk) 13:38, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the references--though I'm not sure they say what you're claiming. Searching the book returned no results for "unseen" and there's nothing in that article that says it either, so far as I can see.  • DP •  {huh?} 14:01, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi DP, I received a feedback request, and thus added the section to be helpful. Perhaps I misunderstood what is meant by "unseen." The character of Pierce Inverarity is dead and absent and never seen throughout the novel, yet the plot is directly woven around his impact.


 * The lead sentence of the Unseen character article is: "An unseen character is a fictional character referred to but not directly observed by the audience, but who advances the action of the plot in a significant way, and whose absence enhances their effect on the plot."


 * Here is what Wikipedia says about Pierce Inverarity on the Wikipedia Page, The Crying of Lot 49: "Pierce Inverarity – Oedipa's ex-boyfriend and a wealthy real-estate tycoon. The reader never meets him, all encounters are presented through Oedipa's memories. (Note: Oedipa Mass is the protagonist) At the beginning of the novel he is dead and is said to have been extremely rich, having owned, at one time or another, a great deal of real property and holdings in California."


 * As to the three citations I listed, if do a search for Pierce, rather than the word "unseen" and I believe you may have better luck finding reliable justifications. If this unseen fictional character does not fulfill the criteria, or talk page discussants approval, that is fine with me. I'm just trying to be helpful, rather than prove a point. Netherzone (talk) 14:22, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the explanation. I couldn't preview the particular pages cited in the book (only the first 40 or so), so I couldn't tell if they say the same thing in different terms, but I did look through the article searching for the character's name as well, and though it uses the word "unseen" many times, not in relation to the character. You may well be right about the appropriateness for the article, it was just that I couldn't confirm it in those sources.  • DP •  {huh?} 14:45, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Netherzone, the references don't necessarily have to explicitly call him an "unseen" character, as long as they make it clear he doesn't make an appearance yet has a significant impact on the characters and/or action, he'd qualify. But beyond that, we should be conservative about adding new examples just because they are unseen characters, lest this article become an WP:EXAMPLEFARM. Any examples should be ones that are readily recognized by most people who find this article and read it, so we should avoid unseen characters that would be obscure to most people. For instance, I'm a big fan of Tennessee Williams, and Skipper from "Cat on a Hot Tim Roof" comes immediately to mind to me as an unseen character, and I'm sure I could find a lot of secondary sources that define him as such. But, sad as it is, Skipper is not prominent in popular culture in the way Vera from Cheers or Maris from Frasier are, so he wouldn't serve well as an example, and I think Pierce would be the same way. I'm not going to revert or advocate for exclusion of any example that is reliably sourced, but I would hope that editors consider the general prominence and recognizability of a character in popular culture before including them. Mmyers1976 (talk) 14:57, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


 * No worries, Mmyers1976, as noted above, just trying to be helpful by responding to a request I received from Legobot to "Please comment on Talk:Unseen character[edit]. The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Unseen character." I was simply suggesting a character in a notable novel by a MacArthur Fellow and notable author. It does not matter one way or the other what is decided in relation to my suggestion. Ever onward, Netherzone (talk) 15:20, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I might not have phrased the RfC in the most clear way (it's my first time to post an RfC), but the main purpose of the RfC is not to solicit more examples, it's to resolve a conflict that has been ongoing where multiple reliable sources call two examples unseen, but certain Wikipedia editors have decided for one reason or another that the examples don't really qualify as unseen. Though of course if the RfC leads experienced editors to the article, and then they find things they can improve which are outside the scope of the RfC, that's always good, too. Mmyers1976 (talk) 15:31, 1 September 2016 (UTC)