Talk:Urbain Grandier

Untitled
This needs editing. The final paragraph is evidently a comment by someone on the rest of the article, and should be edited in or out, as merited.

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 08:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The "Extraordinary Question"
The judges who condemned Grandier ordered that he be put to the "extraordinary question", a form of torture which was usually, but not immediately, fatal, and was therefore only administered to victims who were to be executed immediately afterwards.

What exactly was the extraordinary question? The article links to Boot_(torture) but after doing a quick google search it seems to mean some kind of water torture. 122.106.103.80 (talk) 02:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The book of Aldous Huxley (see Loudun possessions), which is based on historical records of the event, describes the Boot. Forty years later Madame de Brinvilliers was subjected to the water form. Probably The Extraordinary Question involved a variety of techniques. Xxanthippe (talk) 03:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC).

Descartes and Grandier
The linking of Descartes' Meditations and the Grandier trial seems tenuous at best, and requires a proper citation.Visual Error (talk) 17:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Text of the pact
Having the pact written out four separate times takes up way too much space in this article. I think we should probably transwiki this stuff to Wikisource, where we can still wiki link to it, and perhaps keep (at most) only the modern English forwards translation. All four versions do not contribute to a greater understanding of the subject here, they just take up a giant amount of this article's real estate. Ford MF (talk) 13:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no shortage of space on Wikipedia. Xxanthippe (talk) 11:36, 13 July 2008 (UTC).

I agree with Fordmadoxfraud. No, Xxanthippe, there is no literal shortage of space. That doesn't mean that it's appropriate for a encyclopedia biography article. If anything, it belongs in the Loudun Possessions article, particularly as Grandier certainly didn't have anything to do with the writing of the document. Even there, I would suggest the Wikisource method. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.152.194 (talk) 14:11, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I also agree with the two other users who have voted to remove three of the four versions of the diabolical pact and leave only the picture and the English translation. I tried to do this but Xxanthippe reverted me.  The vote is currently 3 against 1. - Eb.hoop (talk) 18:48, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, I vote that before anyone deletes it, they should first put a duplicate in Wikisource, and then put a link to the wikisource text in this article.Jimhoward72 (talk) 19:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I did it myself. Does the article look Ok, now, as stands?  The Latin is linked to and is in Latin Wikisource.Jimhoward72 (talk) 20:12, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I like it. One suggestion though: could you label the texts in the Wikisource, as they were in the previous version of this article (direct transcription, text reversed with abbreviations, full Latin)?  - Eb.hoop (talk) 20:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I broke them down into numbered sections. I am not expert enough to write actual Latin titles (as should be done in Latin Wikisource).Jimhoward72 (talk) 19:13, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Deleted Latin Text
I'm putting the text that was deleted here. I myself don't see a reason for simply deleting it from the article (instead of at least relocating it, first), as someone just did. You will find that people actually took quite an effort to put this material in here correctly, and I don't believe it's available anywhere else on the Internet (and maybe not even correctly in a published book). Simply deleting work someone did which had been a contribution to available information, seems destructive and counter productive, to me. If it was so important for the article to be changed, then why not take an effort to salvage important material first - or is that too much work? (Yes, I know it's still in the history, but future editors are not likely to browse through there).Jimhoward72 (talk) 20:35, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Text of one of the pacts (written in backwards Latin abbreviations)
Transcription of text (in real form): mlE ntvL bbzlB ntS entvuj rfcL snetpp soN

tcap tpecca smebah eidh qsila toratsA qta

mecillop ciuh te .e sibon iuq rdnarG brU siredeof

. po te pulov noh nom suced munigriv merolf lum meroma

lemes terffo sboN .re arac illi teirbe oudirt bacinrof

te ealccE as baclucoc sdep bus gis gas ona ni

xilef giv na teviv tcap q ;ture suispi tagor sbon

.D delam son tni aetsop nev te moh art ni

mead ssoc tni fni ni tcaF

sanataS bubezleB rfcL

imilE nahtaiveL htoratsA

mod pcnirp mead te baid gam sop giS

tprcs htrblB

Same text, written forwards, still with the abbreviations: Nos pptens Lcfr juvnte Stn Blzbb Lvtn Elm

atq Astarot alisq hdie habems accept pact

foederis Urb Grandr qui nobis e. et huic pollicem

amorem mul florem virginum decus mon hon volup et op.

fornicab triduo ebriet illi cara er. Nobs offret semel

in ano sag sig sub peds coculcab sa Ecclae et

nobs rogat ipsius erut; q pact vivet an vig felix

in tra hom et ven postea int nos maled D.

Fact in inf int coss daem

Lcfr Belzebub Satanas

Astaroth Leviathan Elimi

Sig pos mag diab et daem princp dom

Blbrth scrpt

Same text, in full Latin: Nos praepotens Lucifer, juvante Satan, Belzebub, Leviathan, Elimi,

atque Astaroth, allisque, hodie habemus acceptum pactum

foederis Urbani Grandieri qui nobis est. Et huic pollicemur

amorem mulierum, florem virginum, decus monacharum, honores, voluptates et opes.

Fornicabitur triduo; ebrietas illi cara erit. Nobis offerit semel

in anno sanguinis sigillum, sub pedibus conculcabit sacra ecclesiae et

nobis rogationes ipsius erunt; quo pacto vivet annos viginti felix

in terra hominum, et veniet postea inter nos maleficere Deo.

Factum in infernis, inter consilia daemonum.

Lucifer Belzebub Satanas

Astaroth Leviathan Elimi

Sigilla posuere magister diabolus et daemones principes domini.

Baalberith, scriptor.