Talk:Van Morrison/Archive 2

Real name?
In The Billboard Book of Top 40 Hits, p. 323 (5th ed. 1992), Joel Whitburn lists Van Morrison's real name as being "George Ivan," not "George Ivan Morrison." Does anyone have any other information on this? Joel Whitburn would be considered a fairly reliable source (make that very reliable source) in the music business. Famspear (talk) 01:00, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * His parents are George Morrison, born 21 May 1922 and Violet (Stitt) Morrison,  born 23 September 1921 both in Belfast, U.K. and he was born George Ivan Morrison on 31 August, 1945. (From Van Morrison: No Surrender, Johnny Rogan p. 12-14.)  The sources for his name being George Ivan Morrison are too many to mention but all the other  biographies that are  mentioned in the main article are reliable sources for this also.  Agadant (talk) 04:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Influences in infobox
There have been two entries made and reverted (not by me) that put his influences in the infobox. My problem with that entry is that if the influences are not found in the main article and sourced, they would need to be sourced in the infobox. As an example, the entry for Bob Dylan as an influence is questionable as Morrison, who has spent a lifetime referring to his influences either directly in interviews or in song lyrics, has said that Bob Dylan was an inspiration (can't exactly remember the word he used) but not an influence as such. I'll try to find a source for his remark and put it here for further reference. Agadant (talk) 17:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Thoughts on Content
Kitchen roll asked why I deleted the setlist he had previously added and I thought I'd give a full explanation here. Basically, I didn't think it was notable and verged on trivia. Morrison has done thousands of concerts over the years; what made that one notable? The reader should be able to discern why what they're reading is important to understanding the subject. After all, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Kitchen roll also asked why I didn't remove the band members section. Actually, I do think it should be removed for the same reasons.

What would be cool is if a separate article could be created with the subject something like "Van Morrison in Concert" with sourced material discussing notable concerts, band members, and Morrison's philosophy towards them. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  04:09, 28 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Great idea I'll get started on it when I find time.--Kitchen roll (talk) 13:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Getting to Good Article Status
Is there any interest in getting Van Morrison to good article status? -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  15:15, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * When I started editing these Van Morrison articles almost two years ago that was my original intention but after seeing how subjective even the most esteemed and knowledgeable editors can be - I fear that all the work the most active editors here have done can be reduced to zero by someone who has never even contributed one word before.  Would you be heading up the project as I feel like you are unbiased and also know a lot more of the Wikipedia rules and regulations that I've never been willing or able to invest my time in studying? Agadant (talk) 17:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, I'll head it up. We'll see what the assessment is like and implement the changes the active editors on this article feel are worthwhile. -- Neil N    talk  ♦  contribs  17:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Great and I'm glad you suggested this. Agadant (talk) 17:39, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll try and help too if you want.--Kitchen roll (talk) 19:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That'd be great Kitchen roll. Before I nominate, can we get a couple of references to source the third paragraph in the intro? -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  21:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Since Van is Irish, are we standardizing on British English spellings? I think the article is written that way, just want to confirm. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  22:19, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It should be British English, seems like for sure. Agadant (talk) 23:27, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the references Agadant. I'm carefully reading over the article once again and came across this sentence, "Other than his mother, these two women had been his closest female relatives since birth, and their deaths would exert a lasting effect on him". Can we say what this effect was? -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  03:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Agadant (talk) 02:04, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

This sentence runs on somewhat: "In 1973, Morrison divorced his wife of five years, actress and model, Janet (Planet) Rigsbee, with whom he had a daughter, the singer-songwriter, Shana Morrison, who has appeared on stage with her father on several occasions and has performed duets with him on his albums, 1994's A Night in San Francisco and 1995's Days Like This."
 * I revised this but anyone else is welcome to change wording for improvement. Agadant (talk) 13:33, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Think this needs a source: "Morrison's 1986 release, No Guru, No Method, No Teacher, earned enthusiastic reviews from many, but not all, critics. During the recording, the artist's characteristic deep growl was in grand form and the album featured some of the grittiest acoustic arrangements since the days of Astral Weeks, but not all critics accepted the increasingly religious content."
 * Glad you asked about this one. Seems like it's been in the article for a few years and I can't find anything to support the part that says "not all critcs accepted the increasingly religious content."   I'll revise it.  Agadant (talk) 18:07, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Agadant (talk) 02:04, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

The "points" section at the end of the 1990s section is somewhat confusing. Can it be reworked into prose?
 * I've looked at this but I feel that I would make a jumble of it if I worked with it. I'm hoping  Designquest10, will be able to find time for this one. Their writing style is a lot better than mine. Agadant (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Is this points section more clarified now? Have a couple of the 2000 era  albums to add into that section still.  I thought perhaps that  including them with the 1990s group would leave it confusing still.   Agadant (talk) 13:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I tightened up the text a bit more and cut away a bit of trivia. Have to make sure each paragraph has a clear focus. I was thinking of asking a user experienced in copyediting to look over the article. Thoughts? -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  14:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Probably a good idea, NeilN. Should prove useful, if it's someone whose work you're familiar with. Agadant (talk) 15:59, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Probably needs a source: "In recognition of his unique position as "one of the most important songwriters of the past century," Van Morrison was inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame, at their awards ceremony in New York City in June 2003."
 * I added a source from VM's website (I'm sure they wouldn't  have copied it from the Wikipedia article) - It used to be available for view on a YT video of the ceremony also with the presenter stating this remark.  Agadant (talk) 13:33, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The above are only suggestions - please don't feel I'm telling you what to do. Looking over the history of the article I see that Agadant has done a tremendous job improving and maintaining it. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  03:39, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * We all welcome your suggestions and appreciate your time and effort to help get this to GA. Agadant (talk) 13:33, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Output of Peer Review script
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.  Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  21:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), when doing conversions, please use standard abbreviations: for example, miles -> mi, kilometers squared -> km2, and pounds -> lb.[?] ✅
 * Per Wikipedia:Context and Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, if January 15, 2006 appeared in the article, link it as January 15, 2006.[?] ✅
 * As per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), dates shouldn't use th; for example, instead of (if such appeared in the article) using January 30th was a great day, use January 30 was a great day.[?] ✅
 * Please reorder/rename the last few sections to follow guidelines at Guide to layout.[?] ✅
 * This article may need to undergo summary style, where a series of appropriate subpages are used. For example, if the article is United States, then an appropriate subpage would be History of the United States, such that a summary of the subpage exists on the mother article, while the subpage goes into more detail.[?]
 * There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
 * it has been
 * might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).[?]
 * Please make the spelling of English words consistent with either American or British spelling, depending upon the subject of the article. Examples include: honor (A) (British: honour), honour (B) (American: honor), neighbour (B) (American: neighbor), favourite (B) (American: favorite), program  (A) (British: programme). ✅
 * Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
 * Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “ All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
 * The script has spotted the following contractions: Don't, doesn't, doesn't, if these are outside of quotations, they should be expanded. ✅
 * As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2][?] ✅
 * Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]


 * "The script has spotted the following contractions: Don't, doesn't, doesn't, if these are outside of quotations, they should be expanded." -- I checked for those contractions + could not locate any outside of quoted material. This is something that I normally spot when editing, but I will re-read the whole article again with non-quoted contractions in mind. And, thanks for making this review and the attendant changes.  Very helpful. Designquest10 (talk) 15:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

OBE date?
Can anyone verify the exact date of the ceremony in which Morrison received his OBE recognition from Queen Elizabeth? Also, if we could quote some of the citation language about why he received the award, that would be good as well. Thanks, Designquest10 (talk) 16:23, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Awards and honours section?
One way to condense some of this article would be extract Awards and Honours information and place it in a separate section. Also, such formatting provides quick, clear information about his recognitions and accomplishments. Just an idea. Thanks, Designquest10 (talk) 17:28, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Shana
The text presently reads like this: "In 1973, Morrison divorced his wife of five years, actress and model, Janet (Planet) Rigsbee, with whom he had a daughter, Shana Morrison, born April 1970. Shana followed her father into the music business, becoming a singer-songwriter after graduating college.[62]She has appeared on stage at his concerts on several occasions and has performed duets with him on his albums, 1994's A Night in San Francisco and 1995's Days Like This."

I'd like to change it to this:

"In 1973, Morrison divorced his wife of five years, actress and model, Janet (Planet) Rigsbee. His daughter from the marriage, singer-songwriter Shana Morrison, has appeared on stage at his concerts on several occasions and has performed duets with Morrison on 1994's A Night in San Francisco and 1995's Days Like This.

Reason: Keep the focus on Van. Readers can click Shana Morrison if they want info about her. Thoughts? Also, do we have a ref for the divorce? -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  16:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Great improvement, the 2 refs. will fit right at the end of the 1st sentence also. Agadant (talk) 16:36, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * NeilN: I just made the change on this per your suggestion. Agadant (talk) 17:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

GA Nomination
Any objections to me nominating this article in about four hours? We should hopefully get feedback by Monday/Tuesday, giving Agadant time to participate. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  16:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm okay with that. Agadant (talk) 16:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. I will have some time early next week, if I can be of any help. Designquest10 (talk) 18:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Moving Forward
Well that was fast and rather unexpected. Shall we continue adding to the 162 references or stop the process? -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  21:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sure, I'll look up references, if someone can help with the- Format references per WP:CITE/ES part on the references already in place. I haven't had time to look at this carefully yet.  Agadant (talk) 22:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I do wonder why it wasn't put on hold. Looking at the articles that have been, the issues cited here seem more minor and fewer by far in number than some put on hold have.  Any thoughts?  Agadant (talk) 23:08, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sure examples can be brought up to back that up, but every reviewer works differently when reviewing articles for GAN. Essentially, the points that I brought up should have been resolved prior to nominating this article; for instance, formatting references really only requires that time be taken to do so. Finding references is a more lengthy process, but considering that they form the backbone of any article, all of the information in an article should be referenced accordingly. Gary King ( talk ) 23:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for replying. I have a question about the [Morrison's influence on] needing references.  Some of the artists named have obviously been influenced: Rod Stewart has covered "Have I Told You Lately" and placed it on several albums.  He still performs it at every concert 17 years later.  He also covered "Crazy Love".  Tom Petty frequently performs "Gloria", "Baby Please Don't Go". Mystic Eyes, etc. But this information would be lengthly  in the article and I'm not sure either artist has said Van Morrison influences them.  How can this be referenced properly?Agadant (talk)


 * I suppose you could add a reference that proves that those covers exist. Also, the section title "Band members (12 June 2008)" should be changed to "Band members" and then mention something along the lines of "This list is accurate as of June 2008" in the section. Gary King ( talk ) 23:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Would it be best to take it out completely? It's useful, since unlike most other musician/band leaders he doesn't employ the band - they remain self-employed therefore the band does change up often but it also can get out of date if someone doesn't keep up with it.  Agadant (talk) 00:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Leave an "As of" note, just in case. Gary <b style="color:#02b;">King</b> ( talk ) 00:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Nationality: Irish vs. British?
It seems Van Morrison has answered this question himself on his Van Morrison's Offical Website which states, "Contrary to popular belief, VAN MORRISON is not Irish, as his roots are all Belfast ULSTER-SCOTS. The fact he is from "Northern Ireland (part of Britain)" has been convoluted over the years and has morphed his true Ulster roots erroneously to that of his origin somehow being Irish." This statement placed on his official website can't be taken in any manner but as his official statement on this often contested question. Agadant (talk) 15:59, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but not for the lead. --John (talk) 05:15, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If Morrison's website characterises his origins as Ulster-Scots, then by all means the lead should so indicate. Far be it for Wikipedia to state that he is IRISH when he himself does not.  I think we should prefer Ulster-Scots to keep his nationality aligned with Morrison's own view of his origins. Designquest10 (talk) 10:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Agadant indicates that he wishes to avoid needlessly confusing people. I've no doubt whatever that he proceeds with the best of intentions; both we & VM owe him a debt of gratitude for a start for the hours & hours of tireless effort he has put in to this article. But in this instance he is barking up the wrong hedge.

Because the bulk by far of Americans of Irish descent are of Catholic origin, those of Protestant (almost always northern Irish) extraction have been concerned, quite understandably, to distinguish themselves from the majority of Irish Americans - particularly, and crucially, since the bloody recurrence of the Troubles in 1969. Thus a whole social category has come into existence in the US that simply does not exist for communicational purposes in the UK or Ireland: "Scots Irish", or "Ulster Scots."

Whatever may be US usage, this article - as clearly stated at the top of this talk page - adheres to English (not Irish!) English usage rather than those of US English. So American criteria do not apply. Wingspeed (talk) 16:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Northern Ireland Citizenship and Identity: People from Northern Ireland are British citizens on the same basis as people from any other part of the United Kingdom. The 1998 Belfast Agreement between the British and Irish governments provides that: it is the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly [the two governments] confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

Doesn't this Wiki article state in effect that Van Morrison would have the right to choose British or Irish citizenship? Agadant (talk) 23:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. It is not up to Wiki editors and contributors to decide the nationality of in a biographical entry; when possible, preference should be accorded to the stated preference of the subject -- most especially with regard to nationalities that have had multiple jurisdictions and/or contentious national histories.  In addition to respecting the wishes of the subject, such a designation will inform the reader precisely how the subject of the biography views the issue of his/her nationality.  That in and of itself is a highly revealing biographical factor and can lead the reader to a greater understanding of the person.Designquest10 (talk) 13:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

@Designquest: I heartiy agree with the need to "inform the reader precisely how the subject of the biography views the issue of his/her nationality. That in and of itself is a highly revealing biographical factor and can lead the reader to a greater understanding of the person." So much do I agree that, as I say above, it warrants imho a distinct sub-heading devoted to the topic. That is not the issue here. It is easy to conflate nationality & citizenship. VM is a UK citizen or, in looser terms, a British citizen. That does not stop him being northern Irish - indeed, it's one of the reasons the section of the Belfast Agreement quoted above is so worded & makes the provisions it does.

I repeat: "VM is an Ulsterman. This does not stop him being Irish - even if for some reason he himself wanted to stop being Irish. No more than Elvis Presley could have stopped, had he wished, being American." VM is, specifically, in every possible way, northern Irish; he is from Northern Ireland. What is the problem with that? The official VM website does not say he is not northern Irish.


 * I have always advocated that he is Northern Irish and recently spent an hour or two on the song articles, etc. inserting the Northern Irish identity before singer-songwriter as a descriptive adjective. Agadant (talk) 19:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

You say: "From everything I've read and now see printed on his own website biography, he seems to consider himself British of Ulster-Scot origin." It Is a Canadian not a north American?


 * Technically, sure but I think we are talking about how he wants to identify himself and according to the Northern Ireland citizenship and identity article cited above, he can identify himself as British or Irish and according to his official website he wants to be Ulster-Scot and British.

Regards Wingspeed (talk) 17:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * P.S. The UK province where VM was born & brought up is actually called Northern Ireland. This whole argument is becoming quite crazy. Wingspeed (talk) 17:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This whole argument started because of objections to an editor inserting the description "Ulster-Scot" in the lead in sentence of this article. Why that was threatening to some is why this argument will go on forever if we don't agree to just leave it as it stands now with Ulster-Scots as a description of his musical genre and in his early childhood section as his family origin.  Agadant (talk) 19:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I, too, am happy with the opening sentences as they now stand. Phew! Keep up the good work. Best regards. Wingspeed (talk) 23:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)