Talk:Verizon Fios/Archive 2

Requested move 23 April 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Consensus not to move. (non-admin closure) Yashovardhan (talk) 18:17, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Verizon Fios → Fios by Verizon – For the last year and a half now, it seems that this is now the current name for the service. 76.116.198.27 (talk) 14:42, 23 April 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. --  Dane talk  22:38, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose move. It's clear the common name is "Fios" in some form, and that it can't hold the Fios article name itself because of the directly competing Frontier service of the same name. However, the common name with the provider included appears to overwhelmingly be "Verizon Fios" per Google estimates.  ONR  (talk) 05:20, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose the official name isn't the common name, and its convoluted English by any measure. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:00, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose – the name is not "Fios by Verzion", it's simply, "Fios" – I would support moving the page to Fios (Verizon).  CookieMonster755   𝚨-𝛀    01:49, 5 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Edits to "Telephone"
Hi page watchers, I'm back with another request. Similar to my edit request above for the Internet section, I'm hoping to streamline Telephone by focusing on Verizon Fios' telephone service, since this is an article about the fiber optic service. I have uploaded a draft in my user space.

Is someone willing to give this a look? I work for Verizon and have a conflict of interest so I ask others to look and make these edits on my behalf. Thank you, VZBob (talk) 00:31, 24 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks again for reviewing my recent edit requests. Can you also review this? As always, I'm happy to discuss. Thanks so much, VZBob (talk) 15:58, 1 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi page watchers! I am messaging this section again to see if anyone can help clean up the Telephone section. I'm happy to discuss. Thanks so much, VZBob (talk) 20:39, 28 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi page watchers! I see there has been some activity on this page recently, so I wanted to drop a note for anyone who could help with Telephone. DracoDan82: Any interest? Thanks so much, VZBob (talk) 13:18, 16 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi VZBob. I must have missed your previous notifications, but I just had a look at your draft. I am declining this edit request because it would remove any mention of the controversy regarding removal of copper telephone lines when Fios cables were installed. The allegation is properly sourced and in my opinion is relevant to the Fios article. Therefore, I do not believe that draft would better serve the interests of this article's viewers. Altamel (talk) 03:30, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Would you be interested in reconsidering my draft now that I added a line about the reports of Verizon removing copper telephone lines at some Fios installations? I did not include the following from the existing article because it is not verified by the citation given: "and that Verizon customer service talked customers into upgrading from copper with false promises of no changes in service rates". Here are my thoughts on why I initially omitted this issue: This article is about Verizon Fios, and I felt the Telephone section should reflect the telephone services offered with Verizon Fios, not Verizon's non-Fios copper phone lines network, or the sale of landline operations to another company. But since you raised the objection, I'm willing to try to find a solution. If you get a chance, would you be willing to review my draft again? Thanks so much, VZBob (talk) 17:40, 23 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Just pinging again in case you did not receive any notifications the last time. I updated my draft for the Telephone section and I hope you will reconsider it. Thank you, VZBob (talk) 17:31, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Addressing the advertising tag
Hello, Stosseled added an advertisement tag atop this article on October 1, 2015, specifically citing the pricing table that appears in the Television section. I have a conflict of interest as I am Verizon's representative on Wikipedia and I do not edit live articles, but I completely agree that pricing tables do not belong in encyclopedia articles. My main point of reference on this is What Wikipedia is not: "An article should not include product pricing or availability information unless there is a source and justified reason for the mention". Would an editor be willing to delete the pricing table and remove the advertisement tag from this page? Thanks so much, VZBob (talk) 21:23, 1 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Let's be real here VZBob, it is patently clear that this entire page was created, written and micromanaged by Verizon itself. This entire article is written like an advertisement. Even without the pricing table(s) the advertisement tag should without doubt remain until such a time when there exists a paragraph within it that couldn't be copy pasted into a Verizon brochure.


 * It is deceptive and dishonest to suggest that the advertisement tag should be removed with the removal of the price table. No matter what point in time you choose to view this page from (see previous revisions) the bias and non-encyclopedic nature of the content is always clear. This page has, for years, been everything BUT an encyclopedic entry. I need not even wonder why that is.


 * This very talk page is riddled with requests from the company itself for changes to be made and look what has happened. I call for the deletion of this advertisement/article in its entirety but only after archiving it to showcase precisely what will come of this encyclopedia if corporations are allowed to have their way with it.


 * Stosseled (talk) 10:47, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello again, Stosseled. Certainly this page can be improved in several areas, and I would hope that editors make constructive changes. My goal has been to help leave an accurate record about Verizon, and I have worked hard to respect Wikipedia's guidelines regarding neutrality and verifiability. As for this page, I've only ever made one previous request, a small factual change. As far as I'm aware, there has been no micromanagement by Verizon. In reality, it would make no sense for Verizon to endorse a pricing table; prices change all the time (they're seasonal and regional, there are frequent promotions, and pricing usually depends on whether you order online or not, or order a contract, etc.) so something like this only creates customer confusion. If there are other areas that you feel need to be addressed, please let me know. Thank you, VZBob (talk) 22:15, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Did some editing on the article, removing entire sections and tables, and removed advertising tag.  If anyone feels there are further promotionalism concerns in the text, please tag the specific sections.   And User:Stosseled, if you have specific information to show that "this entire page was created, written and micromanaged by Verizon itself" then please present it here or on WP:COIN.  Because I see no evidence to that, and in fact see a company representative working in good faith and following all wikipedia guidelines and policies.  --  1Wiki8 ........................... (talk) 06:55, 7 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello, User:1Wiki8Q5G7FviTHBac3dx8HhdNYwDVstR. Thanks for taking the time to look into this and make these changes. I do try my hardest to follow Wikipedia's COI guidelines. It is something I take very seriously, so I appreciate your kind words. Thanks so much, VZBob (talk) 20:33, 8 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello, User:1Wiki8Q5G7FviTHBac3dx8HhdNYwDVstR. Two years on I return to this page and it again reads like an advertisement. It genuinely reads like an actual Verizon brochure. No other company's page looks like this. Not even remotely similar. Go read the AT&T page, or really any company's page, and you'll never see the company's full list of internet plans or bundles including pricing, oh boy is it $149.99 for the stand alone but only $20 more for the bundle? Hooray! A complete list of available TV plans and information on their "Inside Wire Maintenance Plan at a fee of $13.49/month" I mean come on what are we to believe? That it is a coincidence this happens on the page of the company that has a representative on Wikipedia? Why should a Wikipedia article tell you about the $.05/minute calling plan for new Fios customers? Why is this the only article that consistently ends up reading like an advertisement? It goes without saying that I'm reinstating the advertisement tag. Stosseled (talk) 10:32, 9 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Hello again, Stosseled and 1Wiki8Q5G7FviTHBac3dx8HhdNYwDVstR. I agree with Stosseled that this article should not include pricing, as I have said in the past. There are a number of problems with this page, including a mix of overly technical information and information that’s inappropriate such as the pricing details. I’ve been proposing drafts to address this but after some initial feedback have struggled to get input. For example, this request, which would eliminate certain unnecessary and unencyclopedic details, such as the inside wire maintenance plan you mention. My request to update Internet access did not include any pricing information and it looks like the pricing information on the internet plans was after that draft was added to the page. Would either of you be interested to remove the pricing details on the page right now and potentially to take a look at my proposed updates? Please let me know if I can help. Thank you, VZBob (talk) 17:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Yet more criticisms
Reading elsewhere it seems the "criticisms" really needs to be a lot bigger, perhaps even full article size. When looking for information I found mentions of Verizon FIOS installers starting fires. In 2014 they had a major peering dispute with Cogent. Apparently now they still interfere with video streaming services. 74.104.188.4 (talk) 22:03, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Advertising tag
Hi page watchers! An editor added an advertisement tag atop this article back in September and left a note in a previous thread, calling out the full list of internet plans, bundles, and pricing. I responded to say I agreed that the article should not include pricing, but there was no response. I have suggested edits in the past to remove such material, but have struggled for replies. Fios Instant Internet I suggest we delete this sentence:
 * This new speed is available for $149.99 (stand alone) or starting at $169.99 bundled (business pricing may be different).

VoIP service and it offers an unlimited calling plan or $.05/minute plan
 * I suggest we delete the following pricing information:

Inside wire maintenance I suggest we delete this subsection. There is no reference and the detail is not necessary for an encyclopedia:
 * Verizon offers the Inside Wire Maintenance Plan at a fee of a $13.49/month, which covers diagnostic and repair service for inside wiring and jacks. For Fios customers, it also covers jacks and wiring associated with Fios services.

With these changes, can the advertisement tag be removed? Or are there other issues we should address? Thank you, VZBob (talk) 19:59, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Reply
✅ per WP:NOTCATALOG. For template removal, check with the editor who assigned it.  Spintendo  ᔦᔭ   20:30, 9 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you for updating. Now that the pricing information has been removed, would you consider deleting the advertising tag? Thank you, VZBob (talk) 18:44, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

After careful consideration and a full read of the article as it stands at this moment I will not be removing the template. There are at least a dozen problems with the article of which half a dozen are completely inarguable. Not cited, indubitably false snark in the introduction, ludicrously un-encyclopedic content in the Television and Internet Access sections, the list goes on. This article has some good content within it but the way it stands the advertising tag should stand with it. Stosseled (talk) 10:57, 13 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I'd like to help clean up the article so it does not read like an advertisement, as you suggest. Previously, I've made some requests here to improve the page and had trouble moving things forward, so I'd be happy to work through some specific issues instead if that will work better. Would you be able to say what exactly the "False snark" is, and what you consider unencyclopedic in the Television and Internet access sections? I'm happy to help address these concerns.


 * I do see a couple items in the introduction that could be deleted:
 * Where available, select Verizon Wireless stores also sell Fios services, similar to AT&T offering DirecTV and U-verse services in its wireless stores.
 * Other service providers use fiber optics in the network backbone and existing copper or coax infrastructure for residential users.


 * As editors can see in my previous edit requests on this Talk page, I have made suggestions to remove unencyclopedic content (such as pricing tables) and overly technical detail. I've also been working on updates to the Television and Technology sections, both of which are far too technical for a general encyclopedia article. I can certainly revisit the past suggestions I've put forward and post some refreshed requests with an eye to resolving the issues Stosseled has raised.


 * If you will point out specifics, then I can work with you and hopefully others to resolve the issue. Thank you, VZBob (talk) 20:52, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Edits to introduction
Hi page watchers! Since the advertisement tag was added to this article, I'm continuing my efforts to eliminate content that is not encyclopedic and could be seen as promotional to Wikipedia editors.

There are two items that I see in the introduction that could be deleted:


 * Where available, select Verizon Wireless stores also sell Fios services, similar to AT&T offering DirecTV and U-verse services in its wireless stores.
 * Other service providers use fiber optics in the network backbone and existing copper or coax infrastructure for residential users.

Is someone willing to give this a look? I work for Verizon and have a conflict of interest so I ask others to look and make these deletions on my behalf. Thank you, VZBob (talk) 13:04, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Reply quotebox with inserted reviewer decisions and feedback 08-MAR-2018
Below you will see where text from your request has been quoted and individual advisory messages – either accepting, declining or otherwise commenting upon your proposals – have been inserted underneath each major proposal. Please see the Notes section at the bottom of the quotebox for additional information about each request.      Spintendo       15:48, 9 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you for updating. VZBob (talk) 14:36, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Edits to "Television"
Hi page watchers, I'm back with another update to help streamline this article and also address the advertisement tag. I have uploaded a draft of a rewritten Television section in my user space. At 156 words, it is considerably shorter than the existing 430-word section.

My draft is meant to replace the existing content. I have rewritten it so it is less technical and less promotional, removing the two tables detailing Fios' various TV plans.

Is someone willing to give this a look? Pinging Altamel, who has reviewed similar requests of mine.

I work for Verizon and have a conflict of interest so I ask others to look and make these edits on my behalf. Thank you, VZBob (talk) 18:58, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Reply quotebox with inserted reviewer decisions and feedback 23-MAR-2018
Below you will see where text from your request has been quoted with individual advisory messages placed underneath, either accepting, declining or otherwise commenting upon your proposal(s). Please see notes for additional information about each request.      Spintendo       05:29, 24 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you for adding the new material. Sorry for the confusion here. That material was meant to replace the entirety of the Television section, which consisted of the Video service and Quantum TV subsections. Thank you, VZBob (talk) 17:15, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Follow up for "Television"
Hi again page watchers, I'm back with a hopefully quick and easy request following my post above about the rewritten Television section. Spintendo had reviewed and moved my new draft into the article but wasn't certain what it should replace: the draft was intended to replace everything within the Television section, including the subsections for Video and Quantum TV.

Given that my new draft aimed to simplify and replace the whole section, please can an editor look at removing the overly technical and potentially promotional Video and Quantum TV subsections?

Once again, I work for Verizon and have a conflict of interest so I ask others to look and make these edits on my behalf. Thank you, VZBob (talk) 21:34, 4 April 2018 (UTC)


 * ✅ Hi Bob! I removed everything under the Quantum and video sections, including the two tables. I hope this was correct. If not, please advise by changing the ans parameter from ans=yes to ans=no. Thank you! 0.82em 14:13, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you, much appreciated! VZBob (talk) 20:50, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Edits to "Telephone"
Hi page watchers, I'm back with another try at an edit request from early 2017. Similar to my work with the Wikipedia community on the Internet and Television sections, I've attempted to streamline Telephone by focusing on Fios' telephone service. The second paragraph of the section deals with landline operations that have since been sold by Verizon, so I suggest removing that detail from the article.

Following feedback from Altamel last year and a recent review by myself, I have updated my draft in my user space. My draft seeks to replace the entirety of the existing Telephone section, should editors agree with the proposed update. The reason: I think this section should focus solely on Verizon Fios telephone service without the inclusion of extraneous detail.

I work for Verizon and have a conflict of interest so I ask others to look and make these edits on my behalf. Thank you, VZBob (talk) 20:16, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ VZBob I have accepted your suggested edit. I agree that the transactional history seemed a bit out of place and think it was an improvement to nix it. The rest of the your suggested edit seemed fine and NPOV. I initially questioned whether DSLReports was RS, but it appears to be by all objective criteria, insofar as this subject this concerned. Chetsford (talk) 21:48, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

History Error
There seems to be a historical error in regards to the initial rollout of Fios. I was one of the early Keller customers for their rollout of the Fios Internet service in 2004. The source of the 2005 date refers to the rollout of the television service, which occurred separately and after the Internet rollout. September 2005 seems about right for that. I tried to dig up the Internet rollout date, and the August 2004 date mentioned at seems likely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fadetoone (talk • contribs) 19:59, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Technology
Hi page watchers, I'm still looking at ways to address the advertisement tag, and the Technology section stands out. What do editors think of removing the Technology section altogether?

The first reference does not link to the story it is meant to. I believe it is meant to reference "Verizon's last mile" on EDN Network. Then there are several paragraphs with no inline citations (twice tagged "citation needed"). Finally, the last paragraph about CableCARD references a primary source, specifically a Verizon web page with instructions for customers to activate their CableCARD. Taken together, this does not seem strong enough sourcing to support a 380-word section of an article, and there does not appear to be appropriate secondary sourcing available to support this section. Also, this entire section seems like it is too detailed, and perhaps too technical for most readers. It has gone through various versions over the years and was formerly called Technical details.

I work for Verizon and have a conflict of interest so I ask others to look and make these edits on my behalf. Thank you, VZBob (talk) 12:07, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅  spintendo   20:21, 4 June 2018 (UTC)