Talk:Violin/Archive 1

general tone of the article
Does anyone else think this article is too long and too "wordy"? Maybe some sections could be summarized and made into sub-articles (such as the section on "playing the violin" and the one on "history of the violin"). J Lorraine 08:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I too think it could use a lot of tightening and copyediting. Having watched it for more than a year now, but never attempting a full rewrite myself, I'll attest that it has just grown by accretion, rather than according to any plan.  Definitely feel free to edit and spin off subarticles if it feels too long.  Antandrus  (talk) 15:05, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes I agree that "playing the violin" should be seperated into a sub-article, and so should "Fiddle" so long as it keeps its prominent reference up top. I've just checked and it hasn't yet. "Playing the violin" could get more of a chance to grow on its own into a method with its own structure. I don't think this article is too long or wordy though, quite to the contrary. It has to be focussed on introduction as it's the most general heading, so accessible but valuable knowledge. There's so much of that for the violin. I think this would make a great reception area. For me that means knowledge that's useful to beginners or parents, which is why I fleshed out the maintenance section (which I've seen done so wrong by kids!). How does everybody feel about all the artist promotion at the end? Is it neutral and does it help people understand or play the violin?

Last night I found an article entitled "how to play the violin" and took a look at the discussion about it -- there's a debate as to whether an encyclopedia should be an instruction manual (I don't think it should, but I do think there's a place in it for a description of what techniques are used to play the violin). I'm thinking about summarizing the section "Playing the Violin" and moving most of it's contents to the article "how to play the violin". Re: the list of artists, I think it's valuble for people to know who a few of the more prominent professionals are. Mark O'Connor is the only one I've heard of before, but that doesn't mean that the others aren't worthy of mention. I would take a closer look at their articles and who added each name before I'd be comfortable pointing any one out as self-promotion. BTW, Alan, thanks for getting involved with the article! You can sign your name and the date by using four tildes at the end of your posts. J Lorraine 01:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

RE: how to play the violin, that's very interesting, I encourage you to do that. And yes, now I think about it, I've never read an instructional encyclopedia. RE: promotion, who said anything about self-promotion ;) I would be more comfortable with another portrait or two for illustration and the existing place for celebrated violinists under "List of violinists". We are talking about spin-offs here after all: if we were to include all the great classical names on this page... NB the references to the violindieboys are a little different. RE: the tips and thankyous I've received, I'm delighted! Thankyou, Alan Parmenter 16:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm ruminating... it is a long article, but I'd like to keep a bit of meat in it, especially the kind of basic orientation info that will be useful to beginning violinists and their parents, and avoid making the article into a mere list of pointers to other articles. Keep an eye on this space... :) Just plain Bill 05:40, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, the parent article is down to 40K. After I adjust the subpages a bit, I plan to unleash it upon the wiki world. Comment? Just plain Bill 02:26, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Did it. Let the fun begin! Just plain Bill 15:19, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Original poster here. Thanks for doing all that work, Bill! When I have a bit more time, I'm going to look it over in detail. I still think how to play the violin ought to merge with the child article you put up on playing the violin. J Lorraine 07:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Merge accomplished. For the moment I'm going to ponder some more... see what makes sense to keep on the main page, what redundancies can stay. I think there's a sense that the main page should keep a lot of stuff that will be useful to the casual reader such as a new student or their parent, without making them burrow too far in for it. I'm going to let it sit for a while; you may expect another flurry of edits from me midweek, about Jan 11 or so. Cheers, Just plain Bill 05:36, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Every song in the world, and more
kiss me babes

I took out the reference to the obscure 2002 song by They Might Be Giants, which happens to be called "Violin" and has the word "violin" in the lyrics (repeatedly), but otherwise has nothing to do with the article. I'm a big They Might Be Giants fan, but this is silly. I was also a fan of the Kate Bush song "Violin" before They Might Be Giants existed. A quick trip to allmusic.com shows that there are quite many different songs called "Violin". "Violin" is also the name of an Anne Rice book, and there's a movie called "The Violin". Maybe all this stuff belongs in the article, but I doubt it.


 * You're right--keep this stuff out. The article is about the musical instrument called the violin.  Thanks, Antandrus  (talk) 20:22, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Triple stopping
Thanks to 147.143.10.22 who somewhat expanded the double stopping section and corrected my silly comment about being able to play on all four string at once. However, I have to take issue with the assertion that baroque bows were "incapable of sustaining more than two notes at once" - I've played with a baroque bow myself, and true triple stopping is possible with them (it's even possible with modern bows, though it can sound rather ugly). Whether it's desirable is another matter, of course... --Camembert


 * Another factor in how easy it is to triple stop is the style of bridge. Fiddles often have a more flattened bridge, so that it's much easier to do true triple stopping with them, as well as alternating double stopping on different pairs of strings (D-A to A-E for example). Doing this is also more popular in fiddle music. Wesley 18:18 Sep 10, 2002 (UTC)


 * That's a good point - I used half a sentence of yours in adding a bit about this to the article - hope it's OK. --Camembert

Can vibrato cover bad intonation?
I've removed the italicised part of the sentence below:


 * A useful side effect of vibrato, is that (at least to a limited extent) it can disguise an out of tune note, though a listener with absolute pitch will notice such a technique quite easily.

I don't see how absolute pitch is particularly relevant here - absolute pitch is the ability to name a sounded note without reference to other notes. As violinists aren't in the habit of playing single notes, how will detecting an out of tune note played with vibrato be easier for those with absolute pitch than it will for those who can just tell if a note is out of tune compared to another one? And how does the vibrato make any difference? The point is that the vibrato disguises exactly which note is being played - the vibrato covers a range of pitches, and the note as written is somewhere in there. If I'm just wrong, do put me right. --Camembert


 * Well, I happen to have absolute tonality (not active perfect pitch), and I was able to tell (which isn't much to go by, granted). One thing is that people who use vibrato for disguise won't be able to disguise if they're playing an open string, so their open strings will be out of tune; also, they'll tend to play vibrato even when it isn't written to (and makes no sense to).  Some of that, presumably, could be detected by anyone, but to me, an open string out of tune is blatant (it's like if one player were wearing a hawaiian shirt).


 * On another note, there's some people out there with bad fingering with their violins, even at the high school or serious amateur level... I see people drift by ten or fifteen cents, even between lifting their fingers within a given song.  Pakaran. 02:15, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * I was going to give a long and boring reply, but I think that Opus 33's (rather interesting) recent addition to the article makes the whole thing irrelevant anyway :) --Camembert

'''Really we hear the upper pitch of the vibrato than the lower one. So nobody can cover bad intonation with vibrato.' - Sergei Muratov'' 2:25, 16 June 2005 (UTC)


 * There is nothing worse than using vibrato to mask bad intonation!


 * This is a profound statement that deserves more attention, especially from violin students (but also from some seasoned players). I know because I once suffered from bad intonation, which vibrato did an increasingly poor job of covering up.
 * I ended up going "cold turkey" and spending an entire summer practicing with no vibrato. Absolutely none. The results were astonishing; my pitch perception and intonation improved dramatically. I highly recommend this even to those who feel they don't have much of a problem in this area.
 * In general, I think this also relates to what I see as over-use, or more accurately indiscriminate usage of vibrato. Not just because it can be used (or at least attempted) to cover bad intonation, but because it can become an automatic thing, set on auto-pilot. The problem is that students are often taught to use vibrato because it produces "beautiful violin tone", but the subject is too often left at that: there's no discussion of when it is and isn't appropriate to use vibrato. And there are plenty of times when it is not appropriate, in modern music as well as in early music. Good players know this and modulate their use of vibrato accordingly, but I've heard too many players at the intermediate level who have their vibrato turned on full blast all the time.
 * By the way, apropos this article: vibrato is a fairly modern (18th century) development in violin playing. Before that, it wasn't used, and at the time players started using it, there was considerable critical reaction against it. (I'll dig out my reference on this subject.) --ILike2BeAnonymous 18:54, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Pitch perception and vibrato

 * Is it true we hear the upper pitch of the vibrato? I've always thought it was the middle. LDHan 11:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The version of the article of late November 2005 has this paragraph:
 * It is often thought that vibrato can partially disguise an out of tune note, the intuitive idea being that the ear should not be able track pitch as accurately when it is moving up and down. However, recent experimental work finds no such effect: the human ear detects the upper pitch of the vibrato, then the lower one (not the mean frequency). It is not necessarily the case that results obtained under careful experimental conditions will carry over to real-life playing, and there is at least some evidence that vibrato may be able to disguise mistuning at faster tempos. Nevertheless, it now appears that individuals learning to play the violin are well advised never to suppose that using vibrato will help them with their pitch problems. In fact, music students are taught that unless marked in music, vibrato is assumed and even mandatory.

But on p. 5 of the linked .pdf, it says:


 * The pitch center of vibrato sounds has been subject to many studies previously. A recent study along with a summary on the previous ones is presented by Brown and Vaughn (1996). A common result is that the perceived pitch of vibrato sounds is the mean over the vibrato cycle, although some performers are convinced that either the sharp or the flat extreme of the vibrato cycle is perceived as the overall pitch.

The fact remains, I believe, that many string players are taught a "flatwards" vibrato, or one that vibrates below and up to the nominal note, not above it. I do not know enough to make a real contribution here... help? Just plain Bill 14:31, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't play the violin (but I do play the erhu) so I don't know in detail what techniques are used to produce vibrato on the violin. Could a slight increase in finger pressure used in rolling the finger raise the pitch slightly, so the pitch in fact goes up and down, but the finger only move "flatwards"? Are there any computer or electronic music programmers or engineers reading this? I mean people who design instruments, effects etc, they must know about vibrato and pitch perception. LDHan 15:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe fretless string players go by sound, not by mechanical position, so "flatwards is flatwards," or, in other words, finger position and pressure are compensated so the pitch does not rise above the named note. With that, I'll wait for someone knowledgeable to chime in. :-) Just plain Bill
 * Vibrato can only mask tone in my opinion if done extreamly agressivly which is immposiible to sustain for any long lenghth of time comfortablyTjb891 22:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Double stops
Is the stuff on the bow re double stopping violin-specific? If it isn't I think I'll merge it out for generality. Dysprosia 08:40, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * It's definitely not violin-specific. I would suggest migrating it to the article double stop, but putting links to double stop at appropriate locations in each of the individual articles on bowed instruments (maybe this is what you meant by "merge it out"?).  Or another way would be to leave violin as it is, and put in sentences in the other instruments saying something like "for bowing techniques, see violin".  --Opus33 16:24, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, the double stop section in general is certainly applicable to all string instruments, but I'm not sure about Telmányi's Bach bow - did he make them for the cello as well? I'm not sure. --Camembert


 * The technique is more common in the violin because it requires a lesser amount of dexterity (bow is small, strings aren't as heavy), but I've seen it done with violin/viola/cello/bass. Pakaran. 20:25, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)~

Lists, lists, lists
Ok, so we've got a list of Related Instruments as part of this article, plus the separate article String instruments, plus the category for string instruments in the new Wikipedia category system. Is this perhaps a bit much? Would it be all right if I just turn the section ==Related Instruments== into a link to String instruments, making sure that all the instruments it mentions get included there? Opus33


 * "Fine idea!" says violinist Peter Ellis 03:30, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * "Done!" says Opus33 16:12, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ernst Chladni
I have added a section on the physics of acoustics as it relates to the violin. This was demonstrated by Ernst Chladni. There is a link to a good article from the University of New South Wales that talks about this at considerable depth. Peter Ellis 01:51, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Material from this article on the "The Violin Site"
Copyright Violation? Please compare. --Forschung


 * This material originates, as far as I can tell, in the Wikipedia article. I've sent a polite note to the staff of the Violin Site, and hopefully they will soon be adding a citation of the Wikipedia to their page.   149.142.141.174 16:24, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Memorizing violin music moved from main article
==Memorizing violin music==

''Most violinists memorize music by playing through a piece until it is automatically memorized. They never practice the music to put it in their conscious or awake mind it only exists in the artistic and expressive part of the brain or subconscious. During a performance, when the pressure is on, it is difficulty to stay in the subconscious (where the piece was memorized) and the mind goes &#8220;blank&#8221;. Many violinists refer to this as a "memory slip". One of the greatest violin teachers of all time, Miss Dorothy Delay, once said that the best performers are the ones that can memorize the most details. Because of this, it is important to consider an alternate method for memorizing violin music, known as the Belknap Method (or Shadow Practicing).  The Belknap Method is simply a conscious way of memorizing. In this method, a violinist holds the instrument in their hands (without the bow) and plays through the music by memory without making any sound. When a mistake is made they can look at the music, run the passage 4 times with the music and then 4 times (perfectly in a row) without the music. The conscious memory becomes stronger and stronger like an exercised muscle and memorization will become faster and faster "consciously". The Belknap Method forces the mind to work harder because it does not have the muscle memory or the instrument to hide behind. A violinist must rely only on the brain's power to reconstruct the piece.''

This appears to be self-promotion. The Belknap method show in Google only in Wikipedia knockoffs; it appears to have been invented and promoted only on the http://wideopendoors.net/violin website mentioned above. The two people who added it to the article appear to be the people who built the wideopendoors website. My opinion, based on my own experience as a violinist, is that the Belknap method would be a valuable tool for memorizing music and belongs somewhere 1) as an external link; 2) perhaps as an article on music memorization techniques, if it can be crafted NPOV and as a non-personal-promotion, since it obviously doesn't apply only to the violin. Antandrus 01:42, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Just for clarification, I posted this information because I thought Dr. Belkanp's work on memorizing music was very interesting. My name is on the site that it links to because I created it as part of a research project in Instructional Psychology (where I work at BYU). There is some interesting research that shows that this method (which many teachers use under other names, such as Shadow Practicing, as mentioned in the article) is really quite effective. If I include some of these research studies as backing, would this "qualify" for the Violin page? Experts in the field can, of course, edit any mistakes that I may have made, but placing the information was a well intentioned effort on my part to share something that I thought was relevant. Thanks. -R


 * I think it is interesting and useful stuff, but belongs in its own article. Why not make a new article for it?  You could include in the violin article a line "memorization of music is a critical part of the training of violinists" (for example) and then put the Belknap method, shadow practicing, etc. on a page about music memorization, which is a subject which apparently has no current coverage on Wikipedia.  That way other instrumentalists, not just violinists, could find it and extrapolate to their own instruments.  I for one would be happy with that.  Thanks! Antandrus 18:34, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 *  I was penning my own reply while Antandrus posted. I'll just repeat it here without changing it; it agrees with Antandrus's remarks entirely.


 * Thanks for your helpful remarks, R. Here's my two cents' worth:


 * First, I think the question of how best to practice and memorize music is a scientifically interesting one and definitely belongs in an encyclopedia. This is especially so if there is scientific research that bears on the question (rather than the old-fashioned system where a method is advocated on the basis of the teacher's personal authority).  I agree with Antandrus that to be valid encyclopedia material, a treatment of the Belknap Method should be NPOV (i.e. not take a position of advocacy) and ideally should address other methods as well.


 * It also seems to me that such material would fit better into an article (say Practicing an instrument), with links from Violin, rather than being part of Violin. The advantage of this is that it could then be easily linked from other articles to which it is relevant.


 * I hope this is helpful. Opus33 19:01, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Fiddle is a totally different (ok maybe not totally.. they are pretty similar...) instrument from violin... so i took it out...

fiddle
"A common or less formal name for the violin is the fiddle."

Removed by anon. Don't know why, seems valid to me. - Omegatron 13:19, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)


 * I've played the violin all my life and I promise you that we commonly call our instrument the "fiddle." "Fiddling" is certainly a different style of playing from violin-playing in the classical tradition, but the instrument is the same (sometimes the tuning is different for fiddling, and sometimes there are other minor modifications, but it's most certainly the same instrument).  I'm putting it back, in a slightly clarified form. Antandrus 15:18, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I've also played the violin/fiddle most of my life, and can confirm that many players call their instrument a "fiddle", whether so-called classical players or folk fiddlers. Itzhak Perelman, for example, refers to himself as a "fiddler".


 * What I disagree with is the statement in the article that a violin set up as a fiddle often has a flattened bridge. Though currently not a "fiddler" (at least in the sense of an American folk/bluegrass player), I have been one, and have hung out with enough other fiddlers (and looked at and played their fiddles) to know that rarely, if ever, were the bridges on those instruments flattened. In fact, I think this is really something of a canard: it's true that there are certain folk fiddling traditions which call for the use of a flattened bridge, but these are generally either primitive or regional styles that aren't much in the mainstream. (One tradition that definitely uses a flattened bridge is Hungarian and Romanian "contra" playing, which uses a 3-stringed viola (either a regular viola with a deleted string or a specially-made instrument) and a bridge that's absolutely flat; the player grinds out continuous 3-note chords.) So I would change this part to say that some, but not many, fiddles are modified by flattening the bridge, but that usually the term "fiddle" refers to a standard violin.


 * I believe you are right. Go ahead and change it.  I've hung out with fiddlers too, and played with them often enough, and I'm yet to see this flattened bridge, at least here in the U.S.  Has anyone else encountered this?  Antandrus  (talk) 15:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Tough to see the difference unless you offer up a standard bridge template to the strings. Difference in .5 or .25mm will affect it... I believe it's less about double stops then it is about minimizing range of right arm motion for string crossings (including those between drones/double stops.) There are indeed luthiers who offer a "fiddle" cut as well as "standard" or "classical" cut to the bridge top. That said, the "classical" cut works just fine for most people. _Just plain Bill 2005 Dec 22 19:08Z

how do people feel about the idea of moving the jazz, classical, pop, and folk sections of "history," along with the fiddling section, to a new article named something along the lines of 'violin playing styles'? this seems to really be an article on the instrument itself, how it's used, etc - the music portion seems a bit out of place. the "fiddle" page could be changed from a redirect to a disambiguation between the violin page and the violin playing page. Eitch 09:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm beginning to think that "Fiddle" or "Fiddling" deserves an article, or series of articles, of its own. Comment? Just plain Bill 17:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

minor edit on fingerboards, hope it's okay
The fingerboard of a violin is of ebony. Some old violins have ivory fingerboards.

The above text is what's in the article now about finger boards. I've gone ahead and changed it to this:

The fingerboard of a violin is of ebony. Some old violins have ivory fingerboards. Still, other fingerboards are made of other woods and just painted black.

I don't think anyone'll object, but I'm a newb and am open to criticism.


 * I think you're right. Mine's of ebony, but I'm sure there are plenty of violins around with non-ebony, black-painted fingerboards. Antandrus 03:04, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * I reworded it slightly to remove that POV word "just". (Let's not get snooty!)  Also, I believe that the non-ebony fingerboards are stained, not painted.  Paint would wear off too quickly whereas stain penetrates the grain, coloring the wood itself rather than resting as a layer on top.  I own an old instrument with a stained non-ebony fingerboard. Kbh3rd 14:40, 19 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Good. Come to think of it, they are stained not painted ... a distinction often missed.  Antandrus  (talk) 02:31, 20 September 2005 (UTC)


 * While it is quite common to stain fingerboards, esp. those made from grades of ebony showing light streaks, some inexpensive fingerboards are indeed painted, with disadvantage that wear will show the wood beneath, as mentioned above. _just plain Bill  2005 Dec 22  18:10 Z


 * I've changed the article to say "stained or painted". I think that there is really not any need to add more than that on such a minor point in the article, but you're free to try to improve on it if you want. Thanks. &mdash; Kbh3rd talk  18:58, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Lefties
This is for anybody--

I'm hoping to take up violin and I am a leftie. I'd like to know some thoughts on what a violin leftie should do.

Zeke


 * Ask Google. A valid piece of information for the article would be a tidbit about why violins, guitars, and other like instruments are usually fingered with the left hand instead of the right.  It seems that the hand on the fingerboard usually does more "finesse" work that would be better suited to the more dominant right hand – my left pinkie is a lazy son-of-a-gun (though switching now would be excruciating). -- Kbh3rd 20:59, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the right hand does more of the work than the left hand does! Consider the "basic" elements of a piece of music: rhythm, pitch, dynamics, timbre & especially good tone quality --- it seems that of these, only pitch is relegated to the left hand on the violin; everything else is done by the right hand. J Lorraine 08:21, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Dear Zeke, You should definitely play a conventional violin in the conventional way. Although it is possible to convert a violin it is a big job (new bridge, new bass-bar, new nut, reshaped fingerboard, inverted chinrest, new soundpost) and after all that expense the instrument would intrinsically sound worse as the top has to come off. You would have to do it all to every violin you played and the next owner might have to change it all back again! Imagine playing in an orchestra- you would need twice the space of everybody else (you would make a very cool concertmaster though!) As for any advantage, seeing as both hands need to be highly trained, you will have to train your weak hand (and your weak arm and your weak shoulder) to do something complex no matter what. I don't remember my right-handedness being a specific problem, it should be the same for you. Once you learn one way (and I recommend the right way!), you won't regret it- the other will seem totally impossible. Alan Parmenter 16:29, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Strongly concur. Lots of lefties play the usual way, bowing with the right hand. The rare left-handed instrument is usually for someone having an injury that prevents them from holding the violin on the left shoulder, or stopping the strings with the left hand. Just plain Bill 00:37, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

You'll only have two problems with playing left-handed: finding a teacher who will agree to teach you, and not getting hired by anybody if you intend to go pro. If you want to learn for recreation, look for a teacher before you invest in the instrument. There's no reason for a left-hander to play right-handed other than to avoid all the flak that'll get thrown at you for doing it. Right-handers are fond of saying playing right-handed is easier, better, etc. Not having had to bow with the wrong hand, they wouldn't know. (Some of them think left-handedness is a lifestyle choice.) "Right is right" is an archaic form of snobbery that puts left-handers at an extreme disadvantage. Make sure you have a teacher available and then play left-handed if it's more comfortable for you. And a violin does not "intinsically sound worse" if converted properly by a professional luthier.

Strings
&rarr; I think that most of the string details needs to be moved to that article and only touched on here.
 * Contrast the excellent information in this article compared to the sparse Strings (music) article.
 * Consider, also, that very little of the information about strings here is specific to violins but, rather, applies to the strings on most if not all stringed musical instruments, or at least the bowed ones.
 * Consider further that this article is getting too long.
 * Strings used to be made of gut. Most today are metal or metal-wound synthetic (nylon).  They sound different.  See Strings (music) for the full treatment.

Well, maybe not quite so terse. ;-) However, I don't feel qualified to do the work; some broader knowlege of stringed instruments than what I posess is probably required to make the strings article correct.  --  Kbh3rd 21:00, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Stroh violin?
What purpose does the picture of a Stroh violin serve in the "making" section? I mean it's a neat picture and all, especially with the cute little monitor horn pointed at the player's ear, but it doesn't seem hugely relevant right there... Just plain Bill 08:28, 23 December 2005 (UTC) btw I'll be working on a first position fingering chart to put in the playing section, along the lines of [[Media:First position.png|viola chart]]. As I get more comfortable here, I'd like to see if this article can be split, perhaps along the lines of Instrument & making / Playing / History / Styles & Noted players or something similar. Forgive me if this has been hashed out before. Just plain Bill


 * Hi Bill, welcome. Thanks for taking an interest in the violin article :)     I have no idea what the picture of the stroh is doing, other than that it's interesting to look at, esp. when most people have a pretty good idea of what a "regular" violin looks like.  Re: splitting the article -- it is rather long and unwieldy at the moment (there's been some discussion of summarizing and moving a lot of the section on Playing the Violin, see 'Tone of the Article' at the top of this page).  This is certainly an article that can spawn lots of "children" -- it does have siblings and cousins in articles on strings, bows, viola, cello, guitar, bass, etc.  No reason why we can't summarize MOST of the sections in this article and move the detailed content to "children" of this article, or, in some cases, merge it with the articles' appropriate siblings or cousins.

J Lorraine 15:04, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

endpin / end button
Thanks for tidying up after me. I have the following nit to pick: The button on a violin is the half-moon extension of the back, where the neck root sits. The end pin is the pin which fits into the lower block, and anchors the tailgut. see http://www.internationalluthiers.com/violinparts.php just below the bridges. Just plain Bill 16:30, 23 December 2005 (UTC) Thanks also for the other fixes and vocabulary refinements (such as bow cambering) that you put in. I'd like to keep some language about glues other than hide glue being unacceptable for lutherie-- they can cause bad language to be heard in the back room sometimes. Right now I'm going to adjust the bit about fine tuners and steel strings... best for solid steel, still work ok for strings such as Helicore, I find. Cheers! Just plain Bill 16:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and changed the erroneous "end button" to "endpin" throughout. Also added more explanation about why hide glue should be used (the ability to separate glued parts when needed). Hope you like it. --ILike2BeAnonymous 21:24, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Open strings
I edited the reference in this section to bariolage, which was not misdefined so much as defined overly restrictively; plus, I added the link after discovering there was already an article on the subject. (Previously someone had written that bariolage was always the same pitch on an open string and fingered on an adjacent (lower) string, which is not always the case (check out the Preludio of Bach's E major partita for a stunning example of 3-string bariolage, for instance). --ILike2BeAnonymous 07:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC)


 * By the way, I pruned the bariolage bit from the parent Violin, kept it in the child Playing the violin. 'Tis OK, I trust. Just plain Bill

Thanks to MilesK for clearing out the clutter at the top! I wish there was a way to do that without hiding  a third of the way down in this long article. Open_strings is more about how the timbre of the open strings differs from that of stopped notes, while the image says more about the range of the instrument, which is why I feel it should be right there in the intro. The fact that the words "Open strings" appear in both the header and the image title is more coincidence than kinship of message, if that makes sense. Thanks again, Miles! Just plain Bill 15:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * That being said, I added the open-string image to Playing the violin in the "new" place, so it will be visible there without swapping pages. :-) Just plain Bill