Talk:Vivian Silver

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 October 2023
Please add in "Personal Life" the following sentence: (*) She is married with Lewis Zeigen. Silver is Jewish. (*) She has two sons [...] Reference: https://www.facebook.com/people/Missing-Vivian-Silver/61552340935636/

Plesase add in "Abduction" the reference in the position (*) [...] created a Facebook page, Missing Vivian Silver, (*) [...] https://www.facebook.com/people/Missing-Vivian-Silver/61552340935636/ Angelo.Muratore (talk) 06:26, 22 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made., Facebook isn't a reliable source by a long shot. Edward-Woodrow  •  talk  15:30, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I understand that FaceBook is not generally a reliable source of information (The page "Missing Vivian Silver" on Facebook has been created by her family). Anyhow, another source is:
 * https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Vivian_Silver Angelo.Muratore (talk) 17:54, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Portraits of Vivian Silver
Is it possibile to add some portraits of Vivian Silver? In the Italian page I have used the Template "Bio" (Biography), not used in the english revision. Anyhow ...





Angelo.Muratore (talk) 18:48, 22 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks for bringing these photos to my attention! I have added one of them, along with an infobox for Silver. ForsythiaJo (talk) 23:03, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I see only one portret was left in commons, but is missing from the articl. @ForsythiaJo can you please add it? thank you. Nizzan Cohen (talk) 06:28, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. ForsythiaJo (talk) 16:31, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * When has the photo been taken? (2023-10-22 may be the date of upload.) The year could be noted in the article. Helium4 (talk) 06:57, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Please add 1 word to Abduction section
Please add a word such as "found" before "burned" in the last sentence of the first paragraph in the Abduction section based on the contents of the existing source cited. While it should be an easy deduction, English grammar & syntax precedence makes it possible for some to misinterpret the sentence as suggesting, however illogical, that the burning may have taken place after first responders arrived. 142.160.211.95 (talk) 16:30, 3 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Done. ForsythiaJo (talk) 16:38, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Abduction Timeline
In the Abduction section, it should be clarified that Silver was not abducted "in the midst" of the war but during the events (which included a massacre in the same kibbutz where she was at the time) at the beginning of it. 142.160.211.95 (talk) 17:21, 3 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Done. ForsythiaJo (talk) 18:18, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

She was murdered
Source:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/israel-gaza-vivian-silver-1.7027333 מקצועי (talk) 23:34, 13 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for linking this source. Very unfortunate news. ForsythiaJo (talk) 00:10, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Accuracy !!!
please change "killed by HAMAS" to "murdered." Killed is not the correct description of the massacre that took place on 10/07. 99.10.75.236 (talk) 08:29, 15 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi there, Wikipedia convention is to use “murdered” only when someone has been convicted for a murder. In this case, using “killed” aligns with other articles on the events of October 7. Furthermore, this is really just a difference in semantics; using “murdered” rather than “killed” doesn’t clarify the meaning of the sentence or clarify the cause of her death. ForsythiaJo (talk) 16:53, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 November 2023
In the second sentence of the first paragraph, change "killed by Hamas militants" to "murdered by Hamas militants." Tslvrmn (talk) 21:20, 16 November 2023 (UTC)


 * ❌; I am following the conventions of other related pages, including the main 2023 Hamas attack on Israel page, which are currently using "killed by militants" rather than "murdered by terrorists". If consensus on that wording changes, we can change it on this page as well. ForsythiaJo (talk) 21:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 November 2023 (2)
In the second sentence of the first paragraph, change "militants" to "terrorists" (as designated by Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, Paraguay, the United Kingdom, the European Union, and the United States). 12.138.56.19 (talk) 21:25, 16 November 2023 (UTC)


 * ❌; I am following the conventions of other related pages, including the main 2023 Hamas attack on Israel page, which are currently using "killed by militants" rather than "murdered by terrorists". If consensus on that wording changes, we can change it on this page as well. ForsythiaJo (talk) 21:49, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Specific identity of killers
Do we know whether she was killed by Hamas or by IDF 'friendly fire'? The CBC and Washington Post articles state she was "killed during the initial attack", but neither specifies who was responsible. If we don't have a source claiming that Hamas was specifically responsible, we should remove the claim in this article of such. Until such a source is provided, we should change "She was killed by Hamas militants during the massacre..." to "She was killed during the massacre..." or "She was killed during the Hamas massacre..." or something similar so as to avoid making an unsourced claim. Dicentis (talk) 06:12, 17 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I've clarified that. There appears to be no precise cause of death. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:54, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Place of burial
Please update burial site. Her funeral memorial service was held in kibbutz Gezer on Thursday, Nov 16th 2023 but she was buried in kibbutz Be'eri on Friday Nov 17th 2023 with only immediate family present. 209.35.186.196 (talk) 00:56, 18 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Do you have a source for her being buried in Be'eri? ForsythiaJo (talk) 01:16, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Took some time, but here is a source: https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/canadian-israeli-peace-activist-vivian-silver-recalled-as-a-role-model-at-funeral/article_6881267c-c924-584f-b5a9-61b352dcdd0e.html 66.244.208.130 (talk) 20:09, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I'll update the article with this. ForsythiaJo (talk) 20:10, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Nationality
plesae change the order: Vivian is an Israeli-candaian. She lived and died in Israel. It is misleading to present her as canadian-israeli 2A0D:6FC2:46B0:7900:9808:6230:CD52:1AF4 (talk) 07:44, 19 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Vivian was born in Canada and immigrated to Israel, making her an Israeli of Canadian descent, in the same way we'd say Chinese-American to discuss an American of Chinese descent. Calling her Israeli-Canadian would imply the opposite, that she is a Canadian of Israeli descent, which isn't true. Furthermore, I haven't found a source indicating she ever lost/gave up her Canadian citizenship, so to describe her as Canadian is factually correct. ForsythiaJo (talk) 21:20, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

A tribute on +972 magazine
Perhaps a link to this tribute could be added to the recognition section. Melancholist20 (talk) 22:46, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

notability
it seems like this person was not notable for any reason, except the day they died. this should probably be deleted or moved into the main article somehow. 814jjs (talk) 13:14, 5 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Did you miss the activism section of the article? Silver founded/was a leader of multiple activist organizations, multiple of which have their own pages. ForsythiaJo (talk) 16:29, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @ForsythiaJo if it was notable, why didn't the page exist until after their death? 814jjs (talk) 19:45, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That's not important. Pages don't get created for all sorts of reasons. This is a volunteer project. The key question is whether there was in-depth and significant coverage of the individual before their death, and here there was in-depth coverage as far back as 2011. There generally appears to be a lot of material to go on. She's clearly a famous peace activist. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:00, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * it looks like a memorial page to me with some pretty significant laundering to bolster the appearance of legitimacy. 814jjs (talk) 20:10, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The person otherwise remains, and is likely to remain, a low-profile individual. Biographies in these cases can give undue weight to the event and conflict with neutral point of view. In such cases, it is usually better to merge the information and redirect the person's name to the event article. 814jjs (talk) 20:13, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negev_Institute_for_Strategies_of_Peace_and_Development is the first linked org and it, too was not notable until after her death. this whole thing feels contrived. 814jjs (talk) 19:51, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Jewish_Center_for_Equality,_Empowerment_and_Cooperation just redirects to the other 814jjs (talk) 19:52, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Road_to_Recovery_(charity)&action=history&limit=20 this, too was not created until after her death.
 * i have a hard time believing this article conforms with the BLP policy regarding recently deceased people. 814jjs (talk) 19:54, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I did write the organization articles after writing this article on Silver, but not as part of a "legitimization campaign". I had just been introduced to their work through news coverage and thought they deserved articles. I actually wrote a number of articles on peace activists and organizations in October 2023 and the months after. None of my actions go against policy - in fact, in my experience, editors often write/edit related articles because they are a subject of interest, or because research on one article leads to info relevant to another article.
 * I feel that saying I wrote these as part of a "legitimization campaign" or that I "laundered" information is an extremely bad faith take, and I encourage you to consider a more cooperative approach in the future when airing your concerns. ForsythiaJo (talk) 22:29, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @ForsythiaJo your accusation of bad faith is, itself, bad faith. 814jjs (talk) 23:42, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * To clarify, I said *I felt* it was a bad faith take. That is a subjective opinion of mine, and not meant as an objective accusation. If you say you are approaching this all in good faith, I will believe you. I just wanted you to understand how your wording may come off to other users. ForsythiaJo (talk) 23:45, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * In any case, I think this discussion is veering away from improving the page; if you feel strongly the article should be deleted, go ahead and nominate it for deletion. ForsythiaJo (talk) 23:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * the article is under extended protection so most editors can't even mark it. this is abuse of process. 814jjs (talk) 23:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Alright, well confirmed-extended privileges are granted automatically after 30 days and 500 edits. If you feel strongly, you can return when you have those privileges and nominate the article. The extended protection was added by another user following repeated vandalism; it is not abuse of process any more than any other protection template on any other page is. ForsythiaJo (talk) 00:01, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This is a biographical article about a notable individuale, with reliable and diverse sources, and is available in other languages as well. Besides that, @814jjs see what I wrote to you on the talk page.Eladkarmel (talk) 06:54, 6 May 2024 (UTC)