Talk:Vladimir Vernadsky

Untitled
I wish I had access to more texts on Vernadsky, so that there could be more than just mentioning his ideas of the Noosphere here in Wikipedia. Also there are even richer writings of Vernadsky that I will try and incorporate here in the future (like his thoughts on Biogeochemistry and Scientific thought, and his leanings towards Riemann's mathematical methods). T3liph0n3 05:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Vernadsky`s attitude towards Ukrainian separatism

 * A few facts about Vernadsky`s attitude towards Ukrainian separatism (link is in Ukraininan): он в 1918 году отказался принять украинское гражданство от гетмана Павла Скоропадского и считал себя русским человеком, отстаивал единство России и противостоял украинцам-самостийникам, как австро- и германофилам . Владимир Вернадский также негативно относился к украинизации 1920—1930-х годов, считая её насильственной , называл язык вывесок и сочинения Михаила Грушевского «язычием» . Своим главным культурно-общественным заданием он считал сохранение русской культуры на Украине , объединение украинцев, которым дорога русская культура, и развитие связей с российскими научными учреждениями.


 * The same article also states that he spoke Ukrainian and was of Ukrainian ethnicity. Basically, he was an ethnic Ukrainian who was also a Russian patriot.Faustian (talk) 20:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, he was an "ethnic Ukrainian" who was born in St. Petersburg and died in Moscow. The Ukrainians sure do like to bottom-trawl. 68.148.160.10 (talk) 03:06, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

family origins
More on family origins:

http://www.wumag.kiev.ua/index2.php?param=pgs20033/48

Volodymyr Vernadsky was born in St Petersburg on March 12 1863. His father, Ivan, was a professor. His family had an estate in the village of Velyki Shyshaky in the land of Poltavshchyna, Ukraine, and they often went there to spend the summer.

According to the family lore, the Vernadskys were of Cossack extraction. Volodymyr’s great grandfather, Ivan Vernadsky, was a starshyna (a military rank) of the Zaporizhian Sich Cossacks, and when under the Empress Catherine II, the Sich was dissolved, Ivan, in search of a safer place to live in, made his way to a village in the land of Chernihivshchyna where he settled down. One way or the other, he became a priest but the villagers found him lacking in zeal. Ivan Vernadsky was more preoccupied with getting himself and his children promoted to nobility for which, he claimed, he had inalienable rights as a free Cossack of a high military rank. He did get what he wanted but later he was expelled from the ranks of the nobility, probably for not having enough qualifications after all. Ivan was said to have died at a cemetery during the funeral service which he was to conduct as a priest. He was very reluctant to conduct that service but was forced to do it by the angry parishioners, and was so overwhelmed by anger that he succumbed to a stroke.

Volodymyr Vernadsky, the future prophetic scientist, showed a growing interest for the history of Ukraine, the land of his ancestors, at the age of thirteen. One of the biographers of Vernadsky writes that it happened when Volodymyr was — with his father — touring Italy. When in Milan, Volodymyr read in a newspaper about a Russian government ukase that forbade the publication of books in Ukrainian in Ukraine. Much amazed and perplexed, he asked his father to explain why such an idiotic ban had been put on Ukrainian publications. His father told the teenager the basic facts about the Ukrainian history. Upon their return to St Petersburg, Volodymyr began reading whatever he could lay his hands on about Ukraine, its culture and history. When he found some books about Ukraine in Polish, he learnt Polish just in order to read them.

Lev Gumilev in one of his writings also stressed that Vernadsky was an ethnic Ukrainian.Faustian (talk) 20:39, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

That was not Lev Gumilev, but Lev Gumilevskiy (a writer) who wrote about it - http://vernadsky.lib.ru/e-texts/archive/gumilevsky.html He also wrote in the same book that Vernadsky refused Ukrainian citizenship in 1918. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.218.136.18 (talk) 03:05, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Nationality scientist
Amendments were made to the nationality of Vernadsky. Changes in the national with the "Ukrainian" on "Russian." I suggest following article in the Ukrainian language on nationality. http://litopys.org.ua/rizne/gyrych.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maßschneider (talk • contribs) 20:07, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm addressing this issue in a new section below. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:33, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Nationality/ethnicity and 'lingua franca'
I've gone WP:BOLD and removed information on "nationality" from the infobox until some form of sensible resolution to this question can be found. Depicting Vernadsky as being Russian using a wikilink to Russian language is misleading at best. Ethnicity is not based on lingua franca. Being a Russophone under the Russian Empire, followed by being a Russophone in the Soviet Union is an ethnicity, WP:COMMONSENSE flies out of the window. If he were a Crimean Tartar, for example, the photograph of him would make a mockery of the 'Russian' nationality.

Anyone who uses Litopys knows that it's a great resource, but doesn't pretend to be anything beyond a collection of scholarly research/essays/books, etc. For every assertion you can find works there that assert the opposite, therefore it's been used over and over again in order to cherry pick POV content. The essay mentioned above, however, is a good one. It translates as "Between Russian and Ukrainian shores. Vladimir Vernadsky and the question of nationality (in light of the diaries 1917-1921)". --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:10, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
 * In mentioned above article, Vladimir Vernadsky was recognized as "зросійщений, але українець" ("russified", but Ukrainian). So, as it's no divergence in sources we should determinate his ethnic nationality as ukrainian. Geohem (talk) 08:54, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Considering that there have been no RS whatsoever for his ethnicity as being Russian, I'd say that puts the article in good standing for a sourced infobox nationality parameter (also taken in the context that the author is an historian and journalist who stands in good stead per Ukrainian Wikipedia. The Russified component can be addressed in the body of the article, but the infobox should then depict him as being 'Ukrainian'. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:08, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

I do not want to start a war edits. But in all other wikis there is no word about the Ukrainian National Vernadsky. Moreover, the Russian Wikipedia also refers to article Gyrich. You probably poorly acquainted with the article, although there is clearly written: "Попри своє українське походження, вчений усвідомлював себе „русским человеком“, розрізняючи три поняття: українець, великорос, „русский“. „Мне кажется, надо различать — русское, украинское, великорусское (с.71, 12.IV. 1918); русский й великорос — разное, и все это чувствуют и знают“ (с.103, 14.VI. 1918), — стверджував В. Вернадський. Невипадково за гетьмана Павла Скоропадського учений відмовився „сделаться украинским гражданином“ 5. Таке рішення випливало із політичного усвідомлення себе росіянином. Його термін „русский“ має на увазі росіянина не за етнічним походженням, а за політичним вибором, за належністю до держави. В. Вернадський був переконаним, стійким, принциповим, послідовним російським державником". That is, the scientist did not consider himself a Ukrainian, and this is the most important. Errors in translation can not be, because I know, and Ukrainian and Russian language. Let's remove all sections of national or add a nationality "Russian Empire", such as is done with Gogol. I look forward to the constructive understanding, free from politically motivated edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maßschneider (talk • contribs) 12:37, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I've hidden the nationality parameter while maintaining the reference while this is discussed and until we can come to a consensus decision of how best to describe his 'nationality'. I don't think your change to Russian was a constructive compromise. I did add 'Russified Ukrainian' in the hidden description, but I actually consider it to come across as being highly politicised as 'Russified' is normally considered to be a negative. I'm predisposed to using "Russian Empire, Soviet Union" as 'nationality' isn't quite the same as 'ethnicity'.


 * I'll read through the article properly a little later in the day in order to pick up on the nuances. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:28, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
 * There is difference between citizenships and ethnic nationality. The fact that he didn't claim Ukrainian state citizenships didn't metter that he's ethnical changed from ukrainian to russian. And a "russified ukrainian", is still ethnically ukrainian, as many another persons. By the way can Maßschneider prove russian descent of Vernadsky, or it's only his own interpretation of Vernadsky's political and world-views.  Geohem (talk) 14:10, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

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Ukrainians?
I translate with google. It is necessary to be critical of Ukrainian literary and newspaper sources - after 1991 (after gaining independence) they are very often guided by the principle "Ukraine is not Russia" and fundamentally all, even purely Russian (and other nations of people) born 100-200-500 years ago on the territories where modern Ukraine is now located are recorded in Ukrainians. The joke of the Russian-speaking Internet - "if a bear cub was born in a pigsty, is it a pig?"--2.132.83.230 (talk) 19:26, 1 February 2022 (UTC)