Talk:Volleyball/Archive 1

Liberos allowed to serve
I did not edit it, but I believe liberos in womens NCAA volleyball are now allowed to serve.

CasualSax 00:51, 3 June 2005 (ET)

Nine man volleyball
I concur with Elf's history comment about the questionable nature of the content on the Chinese Nine-man (person?) volleyball variant. On balance, roughly 75% of the article now covers this relatively unknown variant. The addition was by an unregistered or un-logged-in user: 207.176.190.4. Any comments or suggestions regarding deletion of this content?

Autiger 06:19, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

World Championship correction
Sorry, I've just edited this page to correct the years of the first Wolrd Championships (1949 for men) but I wasn't logged in. . Vlad_mv, 03 Feb 2005

Continental popularity
I removed the following from the lead section:
 * "It [volleyball] was created in Holyoke, Massachusetts, United States, and is now played around the world. It is particularly popular in East Asia, including China and Japan, and in Brazil."

I think it is not that important where it was invented. Furthermore, I'd say it is also popular in (continental) Europe, both from personal experience and from medal tables at e.g. the Olympics.

Ball outside the antenna
I added some items to the list of errors and faults and a note explaining that a ball that travels outside the antenna may still remain in play as described in the page. vlad_mv 18:23, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Skills
I added a large section on volleyball skills. I also moved and expanded most of the subsection entitled "Player Specialization" to this new subsection. I believe this subsection was originally misplaced under the section "Rules". Except in the case of the libero, player specialization is not covered in any way by the rules: it is perfectly legitimate - though not advisable :) - for a professional team to employ the amateur "6-0" system where no player is specialized in anything.

Of course, the libero is a specialized player that is, in fact, covered by the rules. I retained a couple of sentences from the former "Player Specialization" subsection and expanded it. The result was a new subsection to "Rules" entitled "The Libero".

By the way, I'm truly sorry for (once more) forgetting to provide an edit summary. vlad_mv 15:06, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your contribution; I think the article is much more balanced now. The picture of the volleyball court is useful, but the width of the court should be 9m instead of 6m. Minor quibbles: it might also be useful to draw a net in the middle, and I would remove the text "1.75m" near the extension of the attack line. But I am very happy to see the article improved. -- Jitse Niesen 15:46, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm really happy you found these contributions have improved the page. Thanks a lot for your support and your comments. I still find it difficult to forgive myself for making that blatant mistake with the 6m. It's corrected now. I also followed your suggestion about the 1.75 m text. I deliberately avoided drawing the net for two reason: (1) I'd have to draw on perspective, and I'm not sure I can do that; (2) I would have to indicate the differences in height for women's and men's volleyball, and I'm not capable of doing that without rendering the image cluttered. Please, do that if you can, the image was uploaded to commons. vlad_mv 02:46, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I took the liberty of removing a sentence in the introduction because of a word missing or something. There was an example of how a team could commit a fault, namely make a tip, and I just don't think it worked very well, even with the missing word put in, so I tried to make a clearer, more general explanation. nickmason

Female sport
I see RickK has deleted without discussion the sentence "In the United States, volleyball is viewed as a female sport in high school, college, and largely at the professional level." calling it "nonsense". No, it's a social fact. Almost no high school or college fieldss a male volleyball team, but almost all high schools and colleges fields a female volleyball team as part of a league. I will return the deleted section and elaborate it with this fact.

--

Again, RickK has deleted the sentence and the new accompanying fact backing it up and without basing his deletion on any fact.


 * I responded on your Talk page. Your interpretation that over 17,000 Google hits for boys' or men's volleyball teams is minute is skewing the numbers a tad, but I will not quibble over the new wording, though I still don't like it, nor believe it.  RickK 09:54, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)


 * Calling a sport "female" or "male" is inherently POV; it's a statement that is at best, unnecessary, and at worst, pejorative. The 'facts' you cite do not justify your conclusion since there are a variety of reasons why various NCAA and HS sports in the US have differing participation rates, not the least of which is Title IX, the unfortunate side-effect of which was the elimination of many Olympic-style mens sports by NCAA institutions.  If you look at NCAA participation rates you'll see women's teams outnumber men's teams in soccer, water polo, tennis, fencing, golf - are these all to be considered women's sports as well? Autiger 16:18, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

See for sports gender statistics for the USA. --Dittaeva 10:15, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * More current NCAA data here  Autiger 01:47, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

--

First, I meant to type "This is not specious..." in my edit summary remark.

Second, to state a fact without giving why it is the case is meaningless and uninformative. Not to mention appearing odd.

Third, in American culture, volleyball is considered a female sport. It doesn't mean men cannot or don't play it. Not anymore than women cannot or don't play basketball though it is considered a male sport in the US.

Fourth, Dittaeva's stat page clearly shows colleges overwhelming view volleyball as a female sport. At the high school level, it is even more so. Now there might be certain parts of the US where this might not be the case (such as California) but it is the case with the nation as a whole. Personally, I do not know a single high school that has ever fielded a male volleyball team in the Midwest. I'm not saying it hasn't or doesn't happen, but I am saying it would be in the small minority.

Fifth, to PREVENT this fact from being added to the page on volleyball is simply wrong. You might not like this fact, but it is nevertheless a fact. I was under the impression that Wikipedia is to fully inform and not selectively inform .. though my experiences with Wikipedia as of late seems to indicate otherwise. Not just here but elsewhere. People not liking facts and deleting them because they do not like them speaks VERY poorly of this information source and I am now questioning my involvement with this project as I am questioning its value given this reality. Currently, it is ever-increasingly appearing that only vanilla facts have any chance of staying and if that's true, then Wikipedia is of limited value as a source and cannot be trusted as a factual source. But then again, maybe Wikipedia was never intended to be a good source but simply a source of least objection. A "safe" source. One that no one will be offended by. Perhaps not, but it is increasingly appearing to be the case.


 * (Please sign your posts) There are many, many variables related to high school and college team sponsorships; limited budgets, well-established very popular existing team sports, lack of facilities, etc. Stating that the reason for the lack of teams is that a sport is considered to be a "female" sport is a fallacy.  A characterization of volleyball as being considered male or female in the US is strictly opinion and one I have never heard verbalized (male volleyball player here). Unless you can cite specific verifiable research (surveys, polls) for the US assigning this gender perception, it will continue to be an opinion.  Autiger 01:47, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Most popular
"making volleyball the most popular sport ever invented"--say what? What about soccer (and that's just off the top of my head)? This sentence needs a source and some explanation; I've removed it accordingly. Of course, I'll be happy to re-include if a source is given. Best, Meelar (talk) 22:01, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)


 * I guess the idea was that football/soccer is not an invented sport. However, the whole concept of invented sport seems rather ambiguous to me, so I agree with the removal. Incidentally, I would be very interested to see an independent estimate of the number of players, particularly when compared to other sports. -- Jitse Niesen 22:27, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Concur with Jitse Nielsen about the removal. I also believe "most popular" is too vague a term. If a sentence like that should be included, it would sound better with a more specific evaluation of volleyball's notability, say number of affiliated national federations, number of players, public attendance, budget in prize money awarded in international competitions, etc, when compared to other sports. Vlad M V  &#1645; talk 03:37, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * The problem with some of your criteria is they measure spectator popularity rather than player popularity. The original statement refered to an estimate of those who had played (I'm sure including a range from professional to organized amateur to completely unskilled backyard and beach volleyball) and not to the popularity among spectators. Those are widely different with volleyball and that is the to varying degrees with most sports. Autiger 23:26, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

6-2
No one knew what to do with the article 6-2 on VfD; many suggested it ought to be merged here. I have pasted the text below to let interested editors decide what to do with it; as mentioned at the top of the page, it has been moved to Talk:Volleyball/pagehistory to retain attribution and the redirect deleted. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 18:20, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

''The 6-2 is a formation in 6-person volleyball.

In this formation, the setter sets from the back row, thereby giving 3 hitters: a strong-side (court-left), middle-hitter (court-middle), and weak-side (court-right).

Typically, two players out of the 6 are considered setters, two are middle hitters, and two are strong hitters. By aligning like positions opposite themselves in the rotation, there will always be one of each position in the front and back row. After service, the front row moves into their assigned positions.''

--

The 6-2 formation is now described in the newly added strategy section. Kymacpherson 05:39, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ecuadorean Volleyball (Ecuavolley)
Ecuadorean Volleyball (Ecuavolley)

"A variation with 3-player teams on clay courts with a higher net."

There is more to it than that, from what I've seen in Kennington Park in London anyway. It is a community game with all ages present, food drink etc. It is also one of the national games of Ecuador after football. So wikipedia needs to get less US centric! Szczels 15:12, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm glad to hear someone has more information about Ecuavolley. When I added it to the list of variations I had very little information about it and could find nothing more.  Please feel free to add more details, I would love to learn more about this version.--Seitz 05:02, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Verification request
At 13:31 on 20 Sep 2005, anonymous user:156.63.253.3 added the following content to the article. While it seems plausible to me, I am not familiar enough with the sport to be able to easily verify it. Users of this IP address have had such a strong pattern of vandalism that this edit is suspect. Would a logged in user please verify that this is good content before adding it back to the article? Thanks. Rossami (talk) 16:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Sweep: Where the hitters go to block but instead tip the ball to one side using both of their hands to send it downward at an angle. (Can also be used when ball is on top of net and unable to be hit or blocked succesfully)
 * Joust: The term used when the ball is on top of the tape (top of net) and is being blocked by two opposing teams at the same time. Jousting involves pushing slightly on the ball then harder a second time to break the other teams block. (Sweep also used in this situation)
 * I watch this page (having put quite a bit of work into it early in my Wikipedia editing career) and saw the edits. Both are appropriate volleyball terms and basicly accurate in their description. I might quibble with the exact verbage, but overall, no major issues; the content can stay.  Autiger 05:09, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I have a problem with the inclusion of "sweep", for two reasons. First, the term is sometimes used as a synonym for "slide".  Second, the action described above is illegal.

Deleted images
I had added two pictures of Kiraly and Bernardi. Why they have been deleted? Bernardi has been elected "PLayers of the Century" and Kiraly's one showed clearly the passing. I absolutely do not agree with this editing.

Attilio 12/10/05


 * According to the history, the Bernardi image was deleted due to having no source information which, according to policy makes it a candidate for speedy deletion after 7 days. What source information did you supply for your images? (I futher note the comment on your talk page about the Kiraly image) Pak21 01:20, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Yeah! I was new of Wikipedia and forgot to specify the source. Sorry. I'll try to add images about all the main actions of the game to explain them visually.

Why only in US?
I don't agree with the presence of the chapter about "Volleyball in the US". If WIkipedia has to have a international approach to things, I think it would be better to insert some notes about this argument in the history section and a link to a separate article where we'd move that chapter? Waiting for opinions.

Attilio 14/10/05

Ecuavolley revert
I've just reverted a change to the Ecuavolley which stated it was played with a lower net. I don't actually know the game, but the little I've seen on it and a brief Google search all seem to point to it having a higher net. If I'm wrong, please cite sources and revert back again. Cheers --Pak21 09:02, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Too many fair use images
There are to many copyrighted images in this article most with questionable claims and source. Several are out of context having nothing to do with the text they are beside. i am replacing copyrighted images with free ones from Commons and eliminating out of context images -Nv8200p talk 22:16, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

coaching
Any contributions to expand the coaching section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.72.110.12 (talk • contribs)


 * On a slight tangent, Article size recommends that articles shouldn't be much more than 30kB long. This one is currently 42kB, so I'd rather see a reduction in the amount of information on this page (splitting out separate articles if necessary), rather than adding more which would really start to make this page unwieldly. Cheers --Pak21 16:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Dip/Dink/Tip/Cheat
This is a bit strange under the "spike" section since these are not spikes. I'm not sure about English terminology; could the section be renamed to something like "attack"? In the Dutch language rules every contact intended to play the ball to the opposite side is called "attack"; under attack we can then distinguish the different types of spikes and dips. Also, do you really call it "Cheat"? It seems a bit disrespectful. Piet 08:26, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Co-ed -> Mixed
I've changed the "Co-ed" section to "Mixed". Co-ed only means anythinng in the US while mixed volleyball is played worldwide. I hope "men's greater length and strength" is not considered sexist. Piet 08:48, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Grammar and Meaning
The first sentence of this article is atrocious. Volleyball is but one sport, for starters, and what is the sentence supposed to mean in the first place? Giving a sentence like that the most prominent position in the article seroiusly compromises Wikipedia's reputation and intellectual standing. Are there any suggestions for a more suitable opener?
 * Let's not be melodramatic here: one sentence in one article isn't going to have that much effect. Slightly more constructively, I think the problem is largely the "popular" term, which was removed, I suspect due to a lack of any citation (although unfortunately no edit summary was given). How about changing from that to something like "Volleyball is an Olympic sport [...]", as that both gives an idea of the "importance" of volleyball in the world and is an undisputable fact. Cheers --Pak21 09:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ooops. Forgot about this... does anyone object to this? If not, I will probably be bold sometime at the weekend. Cheers --Pak21 13:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Popularity
"It is one of the fastest growing sports in the United States and the most popular sport worldwide beside soccer." is a bold claim. Can we back this with anything? Does anyone really care if it is the fastest growing sport in the US? This is meant to be an international encyclpædia. Would we have an introductory paragraph containing this if it were the fastest growing sport in Turkmenistan? (which it may be for all I know!) Oh, and it's football, not soccer ;-).LeeG 01:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I note this change has already been reverted, a decision I thoroughly agree with: this kind of "popularity contest" between sports never generates any useful information in my opinion. Cheers --Pak21 08:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Pool volleyball
Would it be appropriate to add a section on "pool volleyball"? Brett Wildfeuer 16:16, 28 June 2006 (ET)
 * Assuming that's what I think it is (volleyball played in a moderately shallow swimming pool?), my opinion would be yes, but only a couple of sentences. On a more general note, I'm seriously considering splitting off a "volleyball variations" article to get the size of this one down a bit. Any opinions on this? Cheers --Pak21 08:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Jargon section
I have removed the reference to "five hole" in the jargon section. This is a term I have to assume is adopted from hockey, and is a) such a rare occurrence as to be virtually nonexistent and more importantly b) totally unheard of in high level volleyball circles. 20 years of top level experience allow me to comment, and I have NEVER heard anyone use this phrase. A reference that shows me to be incorrect would change my mind, but a few guys from hockeytown wisconsin do not merit the inclusion of an otherwise unused phrase. Leave it out. 70.115.211.122 07:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)I'm right

Newcomb
Can someone show some credible evidence that Newcomb is actually called Nukem or Nuke 'em, if not this will be reverted within 24 hours.Kearney6 04:07, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * USA Volleyball refer to it as Newcomb; see page 5 of their Guide to Volleyball basics. There are a few Google hits for '"nuke em" volleyball', so I'll revert to Newcomb as the primary name, but mention "Nuke em" as well as a compromise. Cheers --Pak21 08:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Number of players
Does "team" or "side" mean six only or more than six? Because I don't know, I will use "squad" to mean everyone eligible to play in a competition.

How many players from a squad may play in one game including substitutions? Is there only one person eligible to play as libero --only one special uniform, as it were? Or only one person may be used in each match? (Eg, the Brazil squad in Olympic games has two libero but whoever is used first in any match, the other may not play in that match.) The article is clear, only one among the six on the court at once. --P64

Free zone
The diagram show a free zone (green) at least 3.5m at one point and at least 3.8m at another point but the article says two meters.

I suppose "free" means free of spectators, photographers, referees, coaches, and all but six players from each team. The six players may go outside the free zone but no one else may go in. Is that right?

Should there be another error listed, something like seven or more players from one team inside the free zone after the serve? --P64


 * FIVB rules (1.1) state that the free zone must be at least 3m wide on all sides (so the article is in error). For "FIVB World and Official Competitions", they must be 5m from the sidelines and 8m from the endlines (which is what you're seeing on the admittedly not very clear diagram). I don't have time to fix this right now, so if anyone else wants to, please be bold. Cheers --Pak21 11:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Substitution
From #Number of players and #Free zone, you may think that I don't know much about official volleyball at all, but substitution may be the main problem. In American physical education classes, and American volleyball telecasts (Olympics), there is nothing about substitution. Only the rules governing the play six versus six without substitution. --P64 00:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course, I mean that substitution is a weak point in this Wikipedia article for me. --P64

Position (team sports)
This evening I added team sports the Position (disambiguation) and started to write the position (team sports) article. My start is mainly links to Wikipedia articles and sections. Perhaps it should eventually include a general discussion of something like player specialization.

In order to get going, I invented the term "Service sports" to cover those where on player serves the ball to begin play. (Is there a term? rally sports? volley sports?)

Now I must retire. Feel free to improve it. --P64 01:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Requesting a pic
of a volleyball, the ball per se. Preferably on its lying on the floor. -- Howard  the   Duck  08:51, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Jargon separate pages
I moved the volleyball jargon section to a separate page. It was clearly a reference to Jargon used in Anglo-Saxon countries, and therefore could not be present in a generalistic article. --Attilios 22:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * While I don't disagree with the split (the article was too long), please remember this is en.wikipedia.org. A bias towards terminology used in English-speaking countries is both expected and a good thing as it matches the expected readership. Cheers --Pak21 09:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Variations separate page
I intend to be bold and split the "variations" section out into a separate page unless there are objections... Cheers --Pak21 08:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - It's something I've been planning on doing for a while. The section has gotten way out of hand with numerous trivial, non-notable entries. Go for it; please! AU Tiger  ʃ talk /work 15:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Done! --Pak21 16:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks and good work; also on the overdue pruning of the external links. AU Tiger  ʃ talk /work 16:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Redundant article
I'd be glad of any comments and/or opinions on the need for a separate List of indoor volleyball World Champions article (as opposed to List of indoor volleyball world title winners) at Talk:List of indoor volleyball World Champions. Cheers --Pak21 09:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Source for aerobic claim?
The article states that volleyball can be an excellent source for aerobic exercise. I'm an avid volleyball player and do believe that it is good exercise. However the nature of the game makes me suspicious of this specific claim. In fact, one of the announcers of the NCAA Division 1 games a few weeks ago called it an anaerobic activity (while commenting on a "long" rally that lasted 20-30 seconds [est.]). I've no references either way but think that it would be good to back up this claim (or remove it). 06:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Knee pads
Does anyone have a source for the claims (either way) as to the percentage of players wearing knee pads? Cheers --Pak21 17:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know... I was just thinking that the sentence could probably be removed. Perhaps just a physical description of knee pads is warranted rather than the frequency of their use and by which demographics. Leebo 86 17:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally, I liked it better the way it was before. If you actually bother to watch competitive volleyball, almost all men wear them as well.  Why not just keep the sentence the way it was and avoid the gender issue completely?  PaddyM 17:56, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Please be civil in your comments. I wondered about this, and had a look at the photos of Brazil v Poland from the World Championships last year (and a few of the other matches as well), and it certainly seems it's not "almost all men" there wearing them. However, this is still original research. What reliable source is there for either claim, as is required by the non-negotiable policy on verifiability? Cheers --Pak21 20:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I do watch, and play, competitive volleyball. Women wear kneepads because they typically recover from a dive by rolling.  High level male players dive on their chests, like penguins, making knee pads less useful.  In my experience in the US, and in the professional games I've seen on video from France and other countries, far fewer than half of the elite male players wear knee pads.  However, I do not have a source stating this to be the case, and further, I don't think it's a very noteworthy aspect of the game.  I'm in favor of getting rid of the sentence entirely.  I was aware that introducing gender was probably not a good idea.  However, the way it was before was incorrect.  A possible verifiable alternative would be something like: "Some players wear knee pads to protect their knees from possible injury due to contact with the floor during defensive play." Rracecarr 00:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * After re-reading my comments, it appears that I was a little more on-edge than I intended to be. For that, I certainly apologize.  I agree that the whole sentence should probably be removed; otherwise, I would suggest we leave as it was previously.  Cheers, PaddyM 01:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it would be helpful to have some brief explanation of why knee pads are worn and even that women tend to wear them more commonly than men, for the reason Rracecarr gives (if a suitable reference can be found). I play volleyball regularly and have often heard people wondering why women tend to wear kneepads and men don't (it has also been my observation that this is the case).  Once I was even asked why players wear "those knee braces".  The reasons aren't obvious, so I think an explanation belongs here. Regards, Icemuon 13:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

When I watch my cousin (who is in highschool) her team dives and rolls for the ball. If they didn't have knee pads, their knees whould be all torn up. When I dive for the ball my knee pads keep my knees from hitting the floor and injuring myself. I just got new knee pads and they are allready worn and have holes because of me diving so much. Altough I am not very good at diving, it is the only way I can get the ball when it's far away and no one is going for it. volleyball02 00:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)