Talk:W. D. M. Bell

Railway work
There as an assertion in an edit summary that there is no evidence that Bell ever worked for the railways. However, I can find lots of reliable sources in books published by reputable publishers that state the he did kill lions for the railway. I've added a couple of sources, there are plenty more if one simply looks. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 18:37, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

WDM Bell wrote in Bell of Africa of his short-lived job shooting lions for the railways, incidentally the same stretch that shortly later became notorious for the Lions of Tsavo. Carlsen Highway (talk) 08:08, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Reverts of edits
I've reverted good faith edits by 210.54.238.37 for the following reasons. --Dmol (talk) 22:16, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The number of elephants killed being 1011. This is often quoted, and easily sources, but is almost certainly the number killed with the Mauser.  Several hundred were killed with other calibres.
 * wrote 2 books. He wrote three, but it's difficult to be exact as much of his writing is compilations of other works, and some was completed posthumously.
 * the softpoint quote, while exactly as he said it, does not explain itself to a reader in this context.
 * Retiring due to the drop in ivory prices. Plausible, but not supported by refs.
 * Red stag hunting. Plausible, but not supported by refs. Please cite.

The number of elephants killed total is indeed correct at 1,011. I have added a reference to "Big Game Hunting REcords of 1931" where the author quotes from his correspondance with Bell himself. Also, in Bell of Africa, Bell writes of finishing with his elephant hunting after "acheiveing his desired aim of 1000." The number killed with the Mauser was 800. (Karamojo Safari) (One of the main sources for a much higher figure that is often quoted comes from a Chuck Hawks Guns and Shooting online article by James Passmore which has been revised and corrected.) (Carlsen Highway (talk) 08:21, 12 July 2012 (UTC))

Red stag hunting has been referenced to Bell's Article for American Rifleman "The Neck Shot" 1949. It is also supported by another article he wrote for the same magazine entitled "Small Bores and Big Bores" 1954

He wrote three books. The first "The Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter" 1923 was a compilation of articles already published in "Country Life" magazine. Second, "Karamojo Safari" published 1949. The last, "Bell of Africa" was published posthumously in 1960 by Townsend Whelen.(Carlsen Highway (talk) 08:21, 12 July 2012 (UTC))

Rigby
"English manufactured copies of German Mauser rifles ..." -- did Rigby actually make the actions? I had always thought they bought the actions and fitted them with barrels and stocks after careful adjustment, as most custom riflemakers do now. -- Craig Goodrich 98.226.78.229 (talk) 02:31, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Number of kills.
I've changed the number of kills back to "over 1500" and added a reference. The linked ref states... There were others, some with the big cartridges, but the above quote sums it up well.--Dmol (talk) 09:56, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) He shot exactly 1,011 elephants with a series of six Rigby-made 7x57mm (.275 Rigby) rifles with 173 grain military ammo.
 * 2) He shot 300 elephants with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54mm carbine using the long 159 grain FMJ bullets.
 * 3) He shot 200 odd with the .303 and the 215 grain army bullet.

Please refer to my post above about the total figure: the linked ref top the article you have quoted from has been amended - the source no longer supports the statement above. (Carlsen Highway (talk) 08:21, 12 July 2012 (UTC))


 * Why have you also changed his date of death? We need a reliable external reference for such changes. --Mais oui! (talk) 11:57, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't change the date. I put it back to the correct date that was in the article from day one. It is now referenced.--Dmol (talk) 12:10, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Ta. You wouldn't happen to know which Scottish estate that was would you? Or exactly where he was born ("near Edinburgh" is annoyingly vague)? --Mais oui! (talk) 12:29, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Death year
Death year -- a friend has a letter from W.D.M. Bell dated 18 May 1953 so he could not have died in 1951. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OwenBrooke (talk • contribs) 22:20, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I have reverted this edit. His death in 1951 is well referenced in several reliable sources.--Dmol (talk) 11:39, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The sources giving his death year as 1951 are incorrect no matter how reliable they might appear to be. How could Bell have written to David J. Tolley, who will provide a copy of the letter, on 18 May 1953 if he had died in 1951? In his letter he writes "Most people think I am dead." Clearly he was not, so I've put the death date as a question until someone can come up with an accurate year. That seems to be the safest compromise. OwenBrooke (talk) 20:17, 5 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by OwenBrooke (talk • contribs) 19:59, 5 October 2011 (UTC) Sorry, I changed the date again. An article in Rifle Magazine written by Sam Fadala and published in 1986 establishes the correct year as 1954. The magazine is available on line for verification.OwenBrooke (talk) 20:17, 5 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I've put it back to the well cited date, pending discussion here. I also added a dubious tag to the date so that readers can come to this discussion.--Dmol (talk) 00:45, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The date might be well-cited but it is wrong. How could Bell have died in 1951 if he had written a letter dated 18 May 1953 in which he makes a point of noting at that time that quote "Most people think I am dead." The Rifleman magazine is a reliable source until someone comes up with a death certificate. So I've put the date back to 1954.
 * You are missing the point. The onus is on you to provide reliable cites to show that all the others are incorrect.  Merely stating that there is a letter does not prove anything. Is a copy of this letter available anywhere.  Has it been properly authenticated.  What is its provenance.  Considering the large number of reliable sources stating 1951, you will need to provide proof.  As yet, you haven't. --Dmol (talk) 09:37, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Bell died in June 1954 to be more exact. That information is stated the American Rifleman, December 1954 issue as a note accompanying an article written by Bell for the magazine which the editor notes was 'perhaps the last' written by him for he died in 'late June 1954'. The magazine was published in December 1954 and features a box with the information about Bell along with a photo. This can be seen at http://www.americanrifleman.org/Webcontent/pdf/2010-12/201012210395-1954bellreduced. This should carry some weight in proving Bell's death did not occur in 1951. Regarding the letter he wrote in 1953. There are actually two letters from W.M.D. Bell to David J. Tolley, one written in May 1953 and the other in July 1953. Mr. Tolley had written to Bell who responded to both letters from his address in Scotland. Both letters are handwritten and signed by Bell. The provenance is in the hands of the owner of these letters as the recipient. He is more than willing to let people who doubt their authenticity see copies but how is he to do that??? These letters are not fakes, they are real. They are not in an archive nor have they been published. Do I need somehow to post a copy of one of the letters? Or send them to someone to prove that all of the allegedly "reliable sources" are wrong? Is not the fact that Sam Fadala, an author and authority on weapons and hunting published an article about Bell in 1986 that states 'He died in 1954' (Rifle: The Magazine for Shooters, published in Prescott, Arizona, September-October 1986, No. 107, Volume 18, Number 5, 'Famous Riflemen: Bell of Africa', pp. 8-9 by Sam Falada: http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri107partial.pdf. As a biographer myself I know how unreliable 'reliable' sources can sometimes be and this is an example. Short of having an exact death date in June 1954, we have the year as stated in two publications and copies of two letters dated in 1953, two years after Bell's alleged death. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OwenBrooke (talk • contribs) 12:35, 8 October 2011 (UTC) I would put in a citation and sources regarding Bell's death year IF Wikipedia made their instructions to do so comprehensible and far less complicated! — Preceding unsigned comment added by OwenBrooke (talk • contribs) 14:20, 10 October 2011 (UTC) There has been some controversy about the year of Bell's death. Documentation that Bell did not die in 1951 has been amended to this entry via an image of a letter from Bell dated 18th May 1953. This letter and another one dated 20th July 1953 have been donated to a collector of Bell material with copies retained by the recipient of the letters. These letters and articles appearing in Rifle Magazine (1986) and American Rifleman (1954) offer further documentary proof that Bell died in 1954. The original error about the 1951 death year is presumed to be repetition of a mistake made in the original biography

Yacht at Dunkirk
I have deleted the refernece to Bell sailing his yacht "Trenchmere" to Dunkirk as part of "Operation Dynamo". In "Bell of Africa" he clearly describes his yacht being in drydock in Scotland at the time of the outbreak of WW2, wherein it was subsequently requisitioned by the Crown, although it was not moved from its berth. He writes of taking possession once more after the war ended. I cannot discover how this rumour came about, it is unfounded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlsen Highway (talk • contribs) 08:31, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Estate at Corriemoillie
In fact Bell lived in the gatehouse at Corriemoillie, not in the main house of the estate. The landlady in the public house nearby told of the wild parties which Bell used to host. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HarrySime (talk • contribs) 22:27, 23 June 2019 (UTC)