Talk:Wafah Dufour

Location, location, location
Where did she live at the time of the attacks? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pbb (talk • contribs) 23:33, 23 December 2005
 * Guardian says "At the time of the atrocity she was living less than a mile from the World Trade Centre."
 * BBC says "Ms Dufour was in Geneva when the 11 September 2001 attacks on the US, masterminded by her uncle, were launched."
 * She said she is a New Yorker, so she probably was just on vacation at the time of the attacks. --Pmsyyz 21:58, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Columbia Law School?
If she was born in 1980, she would have been 21 during the September 11th attacks. "Attending Columbia Law School up until the time of the attacks" is very improbable, unless she was a genius child that entered law school when she was just 20 years old, Then for some reason she decided to leave NYC and drop out of school at the beginning of her Fall term just prior to the WTC attack. I find it unlikely she ever attended Columbia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.173.24.69 (talk • contribs) 00:58, 24 December 2005

Meeting Osama
In the Observer interview, Waffah claims "I just got a glance and he turned his back because I was unveiled". Calling this a "meeting" might be a stretch. But the original wording of the article made it sound like they've never been in the same room, which is also inaccurate. Magnus 15:54, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It was her mother who wrote about OBL turning his back, because she was unveiled -- ironic if the CIA's claim that they discovered a cache of porn in his hideout was true. Geo Swan (talk) 04:48, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Disputing the "Undisputables"
Roughly states the facts, undisputed facts, valid info, all are terms meant to be disputed, what is not disputed is the following:

1. We have to respect the fact that she was born in calif. and hence she is an American by birth, this doesn't discredit her or the article in anyway,

2. Wikipedia states that Arab American descend from a heritage that represents common linguistic, cultural, and political traditions. Arab Americans have a common linguistic background, she doesn't speak Arabic, and hence she is not an Arab American, otherwise we have to change the linked pages

3. Yeslam Binladin is the half brother of OBN and hence she is the half-nience

4. Her not accepting her father's wish for arranged marraige shall be linked to some undisputed article of hers and not of the said Arranged marriage tradition itself

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.154.233.235 (talk • contribs) 17:21, 30 December 2005


 * With respect to the your first point, she does "descend from" such a heritage, irrespective of whether she speaks the language herself. Her ancestors did, which is the meaning of descent. Your second point is correct, but your third point misunderstands how we link things here - someone clicking the term arranged marriage will be doing so to learn more about the specific topic, not to see an article of hers. If an article is cited to, this should be as a footnote. Cheers! bd2412  T 17:55, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

User:85.154.233.235, please discuss these changes before you make them. Simply reverting is considered disrespectful of other editors here. Please try to see the issues from the perspective of other editors. - CobaltBlueTony 19:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe 85.154.233.235 has a valid point here and you editors shall respect it as well

1. She was born in Califorina, hence she is an American by birth 2. She has two accestor lines, one Arab and the other is Western. She didn't keep the common linguistic, cultural, and political traditions of her Arab ancestors, and she very much would like to keep her western line, hence it is unfair to keep on reminding everybody in the very first line that she is an Arab American which is again against her wish, and up bringing.


 * sorry to interrupt, and this 2 years after the fact, but technically she's only one quarter Arab even by descent; her mother is half Swiss French and half Persian and her father is half Yemeni and half Persian. It's safe to say she's American by birth, being half Persian, a quarter European, and a quarter Arab by descent. Persian is not the same thing as Arab. **--64.230.75.40 03:34, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

3. Why the reference to her father being the half-brother of Osama was removed, and not answered?

4. Not accepting her father's wish, hmmm, when did her father expressed such a wish, when she was 10 years old back in Saudi or after her mother took her away. How did it happen, over the phone, by fax, or e-mail, from where did the respecful editors of this article get such a "valid" piece of undisputable information?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.42.2.28 (talk • contribs) 08:04, 31 December 2005

Re: Meeting Osama
Wafah was 10 years old when she was in Saudi Arabia, this suggests that she was not the one who opened the door unveiled but rather her mother as confirmed at her mother's book referenced in the article.

This supports the suggestion that she had never met Osama, but rather it's her mother who did, and hence the article writers should double check this fact and edit accordingly

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.229.242.52 (talk • contribs) 15:41, 2 January 2006

Refocus
African-Americans are American by birth; none speak any of their ancestor languages nor observe any of their ancestral cultures, but it is still acceptable and proper to refer to them as African-American. It is up to Ms. Dufour to change that characteristic of hers, but presumably she'd need to be more famous so that her insistance would be more readily accepted.

As I read the Observer article sourced here, I get the impression that it was her mother that briefly saw Osama, not her.

No attempt to discredit Ms. Dufour or Arabs or Muslims exists with this article. Perhaps if you explain your objections more fully, other editors could understand exactly what your objections really are.

- CobaltBlueTony 16:41, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Re-Refocus
User:195.229.242.54 13:15, 3 January 2006 GMT

let me try to explain

By looking at the lineage of Ms. Dufour, by birth, she is half Arab, and half Swiss.

In Arab tradition, a son or daughter is lineaged to his or her father, unless otherwise he has no control on his or her up bringing

In Jewish tradition, it is the womb that carried the child which decides if he is Jew or not

Judging from her statements and actions, she is trying to distant herself from her first Arab half by doing the following:
 * -Running away with her Swiss mother at 10
 * -Taking her mother's family name as her family name, usually done with illegitimate children
 * -Exposing herself to media and posing as an American
 * -Appearing in magazines half naked, and
 * -Distancing herself from Arab language, culture and tradition, in words and actions

All of the above will diminish the possibility of attributing her to her first Arab half, and would give more credit to her another half as Swiss.

As you mentioned in your comments, "It is up to Ms. Dufour to change that characteristic of hers" so have anyone of the writers of this article got any direct statement of hers if she wishes to be called Arab-American more than Swiss-American, or otherwise?

I believe that we should focus more on how much percent of her characteristics were influenced by her ancestors, and just lineage her to that ancestor and not pick the one we see more convenient for us.

If we do otherwise, it would be just as if we are trying to say, "Hay, we got one of yours and made her act as one of us"

After all, nudity is not sanctioned in any religion or culture, and it’s a fact that as humans developed since the time they got out of their caves, they cover more parts of their bodies, and not vise versa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.42.2.21 (talk • contribs) 16:02, 3 January 2006


 * Despite what she wishes to hide, or advocate, her decent and heritage exist nonetheless. The use of the term Arab American as defined by Wikipedia remains relevant, even if she herself tries to refute such.  It seems to me that you are uncomfortable with her lifestyle being connected to her heritage in any way.  Unfortunately, Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy really doesn't give us much leeway in this; we are here only to document facts and present them as they exist, not as any one POV would like to see them.  (Believe me, I'm dealing with this issue now with other topics!)


 * There are examples of other actors whose lineage is less known; significant lineage or familial bonds nevertheless are difficult to deny and genuinely not worth hiding. In terms of your possible concerns with the association to OBL or Arab/Muslim traditions, consider this: her refutation of OBL's actions along with her estranged father's demostrates a familial disdain, and as such stands as a testimonial to both herself and her father.  Likewise, her distance from traditional Arab/Muslim customs is seen as a dismissal of them, not a relfection of their quality.  The fact that her actions are known to be divergent from a large majority of Arabs and Muslims makes clear what she stands for, as well as what Arabs/Muslims stand for.  No value judgement can be made by favorable or unfavorable editing here on Wikipedia.  The facts should remain the facts; Wikipedia is not responsible, nor does it want the responsiblity, for making cultural value assessments through the way in which it words its articles, and this is a large part of the reason that as an online encyclopedia, it enforces it's WP:NPOV policy.  I hope this helps clear up the intent of the edits made. - CobaltBlueTony 17:57, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what your point is. Prehistoric people wore clothes while still inhabiting caves, although they didn't live exclusively in caves. There have been subsequent periods where people dressed in a manner that would be frowned upon by monotheistic religions. So your claim that, "it’s a fact that as humans developed since the time they got out of their caves, they cover more parts of their bodies, and not vise versa" is false. 80.47.161.126 13:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Decent?? how about [Swiss-American], is it defined in Wikipedia or not? How about documenting facts about her life from the time she lift Saudi Arabia upto present? or is that not a part of the facts that needs to be digged and documents at her page in wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.229.242.52 (talk • contribs) 17:19, 4 January 2006

Ethnic Heritage
Wafah Dufour/Binladin hardly qualifies as Arab-American. Yes, she is American, as she was born in the United States. However, her mother is half-Iranian, half-Swiss; her father is half-Iranian, half-Arab (of Yemeni origins). So, she is as Arab-American as she is Swiss-American (by heritage). She is ethnically Half-Iranian, quarter-swiss, and quarter-arab. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vossoug (talk • contribs) 05:57, 15 January 2006


 * I've heard other people described as more than one type of hyphenated american on Wikipedia. See Soledad O'Brien.  TastyCakes 04:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Discography?
If she's a singer-songwriter, shouldn't we get a listing of her material? That is, unless she hasn't released anything yet.-RomeW 21:08, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, the only thing she's done is four demos that have been released on her MySpace page. All references to her being a singer-songwriter seem to be unsubstantiated by any actual singing or song-writing.  Much like Paris Hilton, I am at a loss to figure out what this woman actually does for a living.  Brash (talk) 06:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Who to beleive?
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyid=2006-03-13T133256Z_01_N10281478_RTRUKOC_0_US-LEISURE-BINLADEN.xml

this article is from a trusted source but both articles contradict each other in certain parts. One is the musical influences, another is the name of her mother's book. Can anyone clear some of this up for me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whoscheesemine (talk • contribs) 19:01, 13 March 2006


 * Link is dead now (goes to www.reuters.com), but name of her mother's book is "The Veiled Kingdom" by Carmen Bin Ladin, Published by Virago (C)2004, ISBN 1-84408-103-6. GraL (talk) 13:21, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * He mother also wrote "Inside the kingdom: my life in Saudi Arabia" Publisher Warner Books 2004, ISBN 0446577081, 9780446577083 GraL (talk) 14:19, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

contradiction
article lists birth year as 1976 but is in the 1979 births category — Preceding unsigned comment added by T1980 (talk • contribs) 16:37, 6 May 2006


 * She was born in may, 1975. I'm not sure where those other dates came from... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fallout boy (talk • contribs) 03:58, 5 October 2006

Her own home page says she was born in 1979. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.34.22.27 (talk) 01:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

also here Bin_Laden_family: "Wafah Dufour bin Laden (born Wafah bin Ladin on May 23, 1979 in Los Angeles, California) is an American model and aspiring singer-songwriter. She spent the early part of her life in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. Dufour, her little sisters Najia (1979)...." --Lofor (talk) 16:35, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

i was in class with Wafah at CDL
i was in class with Wafah in CDL, and i remember vividly that she is born in 1978, she is one year younger than me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.3.168.8 (talk • contribs) 17:35, 8 May 2006

Can you remember, how she was? And do you think, she answers questions personally, if you write to her website? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.59.153.181 (talk • contribs) 17:38, 9 January 2007

npov?
What is up with the npov tag?

Instances of the tag tell readers to look to the talk page for an explanation of the concern that triggered the tag.

Whoever placed that tag had an obligation to explain why they placed it here. It doesn't look like they have done so.

I read, on WP:AN/I, that we should feel free to excised orphaned tags, like this one, without warning, 24 hours after they had been placed.

Instead I will call on whoever placed it, or agrees with its placement, to explain it. Heck. We don't even know if the contributor who placed it thought it was biased in favor of her, or biased against her.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 06:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

External links modified
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