Talk:Wales/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Nikkimaria (talk) 13:35, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello! I'll be reviewing this article for potential GA status. My review should be posted shortly. Cheers, Nikkimaria (talk) 13:35, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I feel this article is not GA at this time. I encourage you to re-nominate once the below issues have been addressed. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:38, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Writing and formatting

 * The following sentences exist two times in 10.7.1 Music: "The BBC National Orchestra of Wales performs in Wales and internationally. The world-renowned Welsh National Opera now has a permanent home at the Wales Millennium Centre in Cardiff Bay, while the National Youth Orchestra of Wales was the first of its type in the world. The BBC National Orchestra of Wales performs in Wales and internationally. The Welsh National Opera is based at the Wales Millennium Centre in Cardiff Bay, while the National Youth Orchestra of Wales was the first of its type in the world.[222]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lzwiki (talk • contribs) 21:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Removed duplicate wording. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 21:51, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Headings should generally not repeat the title of the article
 * Changed sub heading. ✅
 * Per WP:LAYOUT, footer boxes should not appear mid-article
 * Moved footer to foot of article. ✅
 * "It has a population estimated at" -> "It has an estimated population of"
 * Changed as suggested. ✅
 * Article needs some general copy-editing for grammar and clarity
 * Numbers under 10 should be spelled out
 * I have made one brief glance through and have yet to find an numbers in numerals ten or under. There were a few under Demographics, but as there were comparable numbers used frequently within the sub-section which used numerals (e.g. 72%) I thought best to leave as is. Though all percentages are now % rather than a mix of 'per cent' and % as per WP:MOSNUM. FruitMonkey (talk) 07:21, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Check centuries - this rule also applies to things like "7th" and "5th"
 * WP:MOS says "Show centuries in figures (the 5th century CE; 19th-century painting)" Daicaregos (talk) 11:50, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't link the same term multiple times, especially not in close proximity
 * Removed overlinks of all those I could find ✅ Daicaregos (talk) 13:29, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is that text in the middle of the Roman section a pull-quote? First, not all of it appears to be quoted (although the quotation marks are unclear), and second it's not long enough to warrant blocking
 * This has cropped up before here. Academic opinion is needed as to why Offa's Dyke was built. We seem to have 3 options: 1. delete the quotes; 2. add quotation marks around the quote box; 3. replace the quote box with a précis. My choice would be option 2. Any précis would be likely to be derivative and we would be unlikely to explain it any better than John Davies anyway; better to give him full credit. What's your thoughts? Daicaregos (talk) 10:16, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know the discussion history here, but I would argue for keeping the quote but not the box the quote is in.
 * ✅ Daicaregos (talk) 13:54, 26 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "Following the successful examples of Cornwall in 722 and Brittany in 865, the Britons of Wales made their peace with the Vikings and asked the Norsemen to help the Britons fight the Anglo-Saxons of Mercia to prevent an Anglo-Saxon conquest of Wales. In AD 878 the Britons of Wales unified with the Vikings of Denmark to destroy an Anglo-Saxon army of Mercians. Like Cornwall in 722, this decisive defeating of the Saxons gave Wales some decades of peace from Anglo-Saxon attack. In 1063, the Welsh prince Gruffydd ap Llywelyn made an alliance with Norwegian Vikings against Mercia which, as in AD 878 was successful, and the Saxons of Mercia defeated. As with Cornwall and Brittany, Viking aggression towards the Saxons/Franks ended any chance of the Anglo-Saxons/Franks conquering their Celtic neighbours." - phrasing is confusing here, especially the seemingly interchangeable use of Anglo-Saxon vs Saxon
 * Yes confusing, and not only that it overlaps with the next category, Medieval Wales. Cutting back and adding a cite. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 16:45, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Some of the shorter paragraphs should be combined to improve flow
 * ✅ Daicaregos (talk) 22:28, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "via the Additional Member System via regional lists" - "via...via" is repeptitive
 * Switched first via to through. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 11:41, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Climate section should be made into prose and expanded
 * Completed by Daicaregos ✅
 * Be consistent in using First World War vs World War I/One (and Two)
 * British article so all mentions of the two World Wars now state First World War or Second World War. ✅
 * Be consistent in using % vs percent vs per cent
 * Addressed, all now %, as is recommended at WP:MOSNUM. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 11:25, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * 72% Christian + 1.5% non-Christian + 18% no religion does not add up to 100% - what are the other people?
 * Corrected and linked to Census data. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 09:21, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't include links in See also that already appear in the main article text
 * Addressed ✅

Accuracy and verifiability

 * See here for a list of problematic links ✅
 * Please address the citation needed tag ✅
 * Don't mix citation types in the infobox ✅
 * Citations needed for the following:
 * They endured, in part because of favourable geographical features such as uplands, mountains, and rivers and a resilient society that did not collapse with the end of the Roman civitas.
 * I found evidence of Gwynydd having good defensive geograpic features, but nothing regarding the other kingdoms or the fact that the Welsh kingdoms had a more resilient society. Have reworded the best I can with citeable sources. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 19:42, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The Welsh continued to call themselves Brythoniaid (Brythons or Britons) well into the Middle Ages, though the first use of Cymru and y Cymry is found as early as 633 in the Gododdin of Aneirin.✅ In Armes Prydain, written in about 930,✅ the words Cymry and Cymro are used as often as 15 times. However, it was not until about the 12th century, that Cymry began to overtake Brythoniaid in their writings.✅
 * each competing for hegemony over the others
 * Probably true to an extent but can't cite. Removed ✅
 * allegedly having the Law Codes blessed by the Pope
 * I found evidence of a (supposed) pilgrimage to Rome but not about a meeting with Pope. It does not add any more weight to the fact that he codified Welsh Law. Adding cite to earlier work and removing the Pope blessing. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 20:54, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Beaumaris, Caernarfon, and Conwy were built mainly to overshadow the Welsh royal home and headquarters
 * In 1404 Owain was reputedly crowned Prince of Wales ✅
 * The Wales referendum, 1979 in which the Welsh electorate voted on the creation of an assembly for Wales resulted in a large majority for the "no" vote. However, in 1997 a referendum on the same issue secured a "yes", although by a very narrow majority ✅
 * This referendum is likely to take place in March 2011.
 * Removed statement as it's predicting a future attempt and is already mentioned in a previous paragraph. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 11:23, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * form a stable government with the "historic" One Wales agreement.
 * Removed the word 'stable' as that implies stability was not present beforehand, plus I have cited and removed historic, as so far only Plaid Cymru, Labour and the First Minister appear to be using the term. We will let history determine what is historic. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 21:40, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * the ancient and historic Wales and Chester court circuit was also disbanded
 * It appears it was not disbanded with devolution, but the areas actually split in 2007. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 16:27, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Its area is about 20,779 km2 (8,023 sq mi) ✅– about the same size as Massachusetts, Israel, Slovenia or El Salvador and about a quarter of the area of Scotland. It is about 274 km (170 mi) north–south and 97 km (60 mi) east–west. ✅ Daicaregos (talk) 21:54, 3 October 2010 (UTC) Wales is bordered by England to the east and by sea in the other three directions: the Môr Hafren (Bristol Channel) to the south, Celtic Sea to the west, and the Irish Sea to the north. Altogether, Wales has over 1,200 km (746 mi) of coastline. ✅
 * The highest mountains in Wales are in Snowdonia (Eryri), and include Snowdon (Yr Wyddfa), which, at 1,085 m (3,560 ft) is the highest peak in Wales. The 14 (or possibly 15) Welsh mountains over 3,000 feet (914 m) high are known collectively as the Welsh 3000s, and are located in a small area in the north-west. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 22:25, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The highest outside the 3000s is Aran Fawddwy 905m (2,969 ft) in the south of Snowdonia. ✅ The Brecon Beacons (Bannau Brycheiniog) are in the south (highest point Pen-y-Fan 886 m/2,907 ft, and are joined by the Cambrian Mountains in Mid Wales (after which the earliest geological period of the Paleozoic era, the Cambrian, is named). ✅
 * After much dispute, the next two periods of the Paleozoic era, the Ordovician and Silurian, were named after ancient Celtic tribes from this area
 * Assuming (maybe incorrectly) that the facts being queried are the naming of the two periods. If the 'much dispute' is a problem it can be removed without impacting on the strength of the sentence. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 20:42, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I would suggest doing that, if the dispute isn't sourced
 * The coastline of the Glamorgan Heritage Coast, the Gower Peninsula, Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire, and Ceredigion is particularly wild and impressive. Gower, Carmarthenshire, Pembrokeshire and Cardigan Bay all have clean blue water, white sand beaches and impressive marine life. Despite this scenic splendour the coast of Wales has a dark side; the south and west coasts of Wales, along with the Irish and Cornish coasts, are frequently blasted by huge Atlantic westerlies/south westerlies that, over the years, have sunk and wrecked many vessels.
 * Re-write of the first two sentences of the paragraph, getting rid of the peacock terms and opinion, plus two cites added. Hopefully this is now addressed. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 20:35, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * On the night of 25 October 1859, 114 ships were destroyed off the coast of Wales when a hurricane blew in from the Atlantic; Cornwall and Ireland also had a huge number of fatalities on its coastline from shipwrecks that night. Wales has the somewhat unenviable reputation, along with Cornwall, Ireland and Brittany, of having per square mile, some of the highest shipwreck rates in Europe.[citation needed] The shipwreck situation was particularly bad during the industrial era when ships bound for Cardiff got caught up in Atlantic gales and were decimated by "the cruel sea".
 * re-written slightly and cites added. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 20:38, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * In 2002, the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of Wales was just over £26 billion ($48 billion), giving a per capita GDP of £12,651 ($19,546). As of 2006, the unemployment rate in Wales stood at 5.7% – above the UK average, but lower than in the majority of EU countries.
 * updated figures added so ✅ --Pondle (talk) 16:38, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The population of Wales in the United Kingdom Census 2001 was 2,903,085, which has risen to 2,958,876 according to 2005 estimates
 * Cite given. ✅
 * Today there are very few monoglot Welsh speakers, but individuals still exist who may be considered less than fluent in English and rarely speak it
 * I am able to cite the monoglot statement, but not that some Welsh speakers rarely speak English. As there are communities in Wales that speak Welsh as a first language (which is addressed in the Language section), then there must be people who are more fluent in Welsh than English. First Language infers that you speak it at home, think in that language, etc. I have therefore removed the 'rarely speak' statement unless someone can cite it. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 17:28, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * FYI, the most up-to-date survey of Welsh language use is this. Ghmyrtle (talk)
 * Had a good look at it, but it gives no real further info past the 2001 census. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:59, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This phenomenon is almost exclusive to urban Wales. Code-switching is common in all parts of Wales, and the result is known by various names, such as "Wenglish" or (in Caernarfon) "Cofi".
 * Referenced ✅
 * The Roman Catholic Church makes up the next largest denomination at 3% of the population. Non-Christian religions are small in Wales, making up approximately 1.5% of the population. 18% of people declare no religion.
 * Rejigged a bit and cites given ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 12:28, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Many of the present-day Pentecostal churches in Wales claim to have originated in this revival.
 * This appears to be an unfounded statement. Evan Roberts may have revived this charismatic style of Christian worship in 1904-05, but Pentacostalism did not really set hold in Wales until it the 1970s. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 13:12, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * it is likely that one of the symbols came to be used due to a misunderstanding for the other one, though it is unclear which came first.
 * This was originally attributed to the leek/daffodil argument. Now cited. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 16:11, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * had very successful careers as portraitists
 * Cites added ✅
 * Perhaps the most famous Welsh painters
 * Switched to a less opinion orientated statement to a more factual statement without damaging the original authors message. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 19:09, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Today much art is produced in Wales, as elsewhere in a great diversity of styles.
 * Very difficult to cite, as the statement does not mention quality, so we can assume that art of all types is happening in a country. Removing. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 19:49, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The most popular sports in Wales are rugby union and football.
 * Removed statement and added a line about rugby union being a national symbol of Wales (plus cite). ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 08:39, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * However, some 500–600 titles are published each year in Welsh.
 * Removed line and replaced with a valid statement regarding Welsh publishing houses. ✅
 * About 80% of the land surface of Wales is given over to agricultural use
 * Needed a bit of maths, but we are there, 78% in 2004. cited ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 18:59, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The world-renowned Welsh National Opera now has a permanent home at the Wales Millennium Centre in Cardiff Bay, while the National Youth Orchestra of Wales was the first of its type in the world.
 * Removed world-renowned (peacock) from WNO and added cite to the NYOoW being world's first. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 11:36, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Removed world-renowned (peacock) from WNO and added cite to the NYOoW being world's first. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 11:36, 26 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Use a consistent formatting for references
 * Why is the other Davies book not in Bibliography? ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 21:33, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * All sources should have publisher
 * All web sources should have retrieval date
 * All web sources now have a retreival date. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 10:27, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Broad

 * How did the World Wars affect Wales? Did its citizens serve in the British army? How many? Was it bombed?
 * Hopefully this has now been addressed under the Modern Wales section. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:36, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Did anything else unrelated to nationalism happen in the 20th century?
 * I have added the effects of the two World Wars, the fall of the Liberals and rise of Labour plus a small section on the move away from industrial to manufacturing jobs in the later half of the 20th century (without trying to overlap with work already covered in the economy section). FruitMonkey (talk) 18:36, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Any information on education in Wales? Is there schooling in Welsh? Is the school system/curriculum Wales-specific or shared with the rest of the UK? Are there any universities?
 * Education section added. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 19:56, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Climate should be expanded. ✅ Daicaregos (talk) 20:13, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Healthcare should also be expanded - how many hospitals are there in Wales? Any further statistics for public healthcare? Is Welsh medicine particularly innovative in any field?
 * Have expanded as requested adding present number of hospitals ( though I'm not sure if Ysbty Cwm Rhondda (2009) comes under district hospitals so there could now be 18 district hospitals No, its one of the 7 new community hospitals.) plus statistics on general health and well being. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 10:42, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Under culture - Museums? Festivals? The National Library? Dance? Literature?
 * Literature section has now been added, ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 22:00, 27 September 2010 (UTC). Museums and National Library ✅. Festivals ✅. Dance ✅.
 * Information on national symbols is replicated under culture
 * Removed. ✅
 * Under Transportation - any more information on naval transport? Welsh ports?
 * All four Welsh ports are mentioned at the end of transportation, and to be honest I believe the two sentences sum up the links very clearly. There's not much else to say. Although having a large coastline Wales does not have a great history of naval transport outside the export of freight during the industrial revolution. And that is mentioned in detail in the history section. FruitMonkey (talk) 08:17, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality

 * Be aware of WP:W2W and WP:ASF, and avoid editorial bias

Stability

 * There is not sufficient instability to fail on this criterion. However, that being said...please no edit-warring, especially not over language issues. Continue to discuss on the talk page whenever issues arise.

Images

 * Avoid sandwiching text between images, either vertically or horizontally ✅ Daicaregos (talk) 22:00, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Source link for flag image is dead
 * Great spot. Now repaired. ✅ FruitMonkey (talk) 18:47, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * "the last native Welsh person to hold the title Prince of Wales." - source?
 * Prince of Wales for Glyndwr was self-titled, and therfore not recognisied officially. Difficult to state that he was the last native Prince of Wales when it is contested by some historians and is not noted in some very heavy Welsh tomes. Switching to a neutral caption. ✅FruitMonkey (talk) 22:58, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * NorthWales2.jpg missing description on file page
 * Added description to file. ✅
 * Source page for Ironworks image seems not to be loading properly
 * Does it need to? The image is correctly free use, unlike text cites that back up a view point or fact. An image when captured is its own proof. Does it mean that if an image is removed from the web, we too must dealt it? I'm just unsure about what to do here? FruitMonkey (talk) 08:23, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * An image proves its own existence, but does not prove its own copyright status. If you can update the link to point to a working page, that would prove its status. If not...well, I'm not going to bother deleting the image over that, but if you try renominating the article you may or may not run into a problem. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:18, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The image does exist on other sites, but what if it's not the same byte size? Is that then an issue? FruitMonkey (talk) 15:56, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Not an issue - so long as there's enough of the image present to make it obvious it's the same image, then you can use another site to prove the image's copyright status. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:34, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Great, hopefully that's now actioned. ✅
 * FUR for Cymdeithas needs to be re-written - this article is not about the logo
 * I have replaced the image with one that is open source. ✅